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QB Jameis Winston, NO (6 Viewers)
- Thread starter massraider
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ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Quez
Footballguy
jurb26
Footballguy
Unimpressive if you remove the part about everyone in the stadium drooling over his passing touch, accuracy and footwork. You're grasping at straws.
bostonfred
Footballguy
What's his work ethic supposed to be like? Brady fought for his job for years. Rodgers fought for his job against a hall of fame veteran who didn't want to retire. Brees turned his game up another level when rivers joined the team and he found out he might not have a job. Wilson looked destined for a backup spot when he was drafted. Kaepernick had to learn from the bench, was awesome when he first came up, but regressed when they cut tours with Alex smith. The guys who fight through adversity to get the job seem to do a little better.
There are guys like luck and manning who ate drafted to be awesome and are awesome almost immediately. But they're clearly the exception to the rule, and stories of that 1.1 pick or other early draft pick sucking are far more common.
when I hear winston talk about throwing to Vincent Jackson, I hear entitlement. That sounds like a guy who expects to be the 1.1 pick. When he talks about wanting to be compared to brady and manning, I hear a guy with high hopes - but I wonder if he realizes how much work it takes to get to that level.
I think his football iq is great and I don't think it's impossible for him to do great things in the nfl - I just wonder if lovie is the right guy to push him to be that elite player right away. I have my doubts.
There are guys like luck and manning who ate drafted to be awesome and are awesome almost immediately. But they're clearly the exception to the rule, and stories of that 1.1 pick or other early draft pick sucking are far more common.
when I hear winston talk about throwing to Vincent Jackson, I hear entitlement. That sounds like a guy who expects to be the 1.1 pick. When he talks about wanting to be compared to brady and manning, I hear a guy with high hopes - but I wonder if he realizes how much work it takes to get to that level.
I think his football iq is great and I don't think it's impossible for him to do great things in the nfl - I just wonder if lovie is the right guy to push him to be that elite player right away. I have my doubts.
Do you see where he faults his athletic ability and not his passing ability? Can you understand the difference?
jurb26
Footballguy
Really, this is how you took that? You realize he first said Rice and then, when told "you won't get him" changed his response to Jackson. Seemed to me he was just trying to be cleaver and funny. I'm sure he does expect to be the 1.01 pick. Im not sure why that would be a problem. Winston certainly does not lack confidence. His work ethic is said to be second to none. He's regularly refered to as a student of the game. Constantly watches film, even on the bus when playing baseball.
It's fair to be skeptical, but his work ethic doesn't seem like a reason for skepticism.
bostonfred
Footballguy
yes, it's one of the things i took away. Not the only one. If we were talking about the dedication necessary to become the number one pick, I think he has that. I'm asking whether he has the dedication to become a good or great nfl qb. So yes, i do look for red flags and even orange or yellow flags about entitlement issues.
Watching film on the baseball bus is a good start. That's what I was getting at. The fact that he was on a baseball bus at all isn't a great sign, but it's not the worst thing in the world for him to be a Super stud athlete.
I'm struggling with this one. I have no dog in this fight, I have no college football allegiance, I don't want the bucs to fail, I don't want the pats to draft him, and I don't expect to draft him in dynasty but I'm not opposed to it. So I'm asking honestly. No need to be snarky about it.
Watching film on the baseball bus is a good start. That's what I was getting at. The fact that he was on a baseball bus at all isn't a great sign, but it's not the worst thing in the world for him to be a Super stud athlete.
I'm struggling with this one. I have no dog in this fight, I have no college football allegiance, I don't want the bucs to fail, I don't want the pats to draft him, and I don't expect to draft him in dynasty but I'm not opposed to it. So I'm asking honestly. No need to be snarky about it.
jurb26
Footballguy
Playing baseball in college never bothered me. Last year he was repeatedly saying things like wanting to be a 2 way athlete in the pros, though. That really bothered me. It seems he's moved on from that based on his interviews at the combine and recent others. This is the biggest positive for him in my book because the divided attention to playing both sports in the pros was my biggest concern with him.
Orlando RMF
Footballguy
I like him as a competitor, he definitely gets the guys around to makes plays when they need them. An intangible you can't measure at the combine and frankly is one of the most important factors when you add in his passing talents. The flags I am looking at still have to do with off the field issues, crab legs and cafeteria behavior. I am concerned about him being described as a workaholic and yet having pedestrian combine numbers. Being a Heisman trophy winner did not translate into consistent or better numbers in 2014, and recognizing that FSU was substantially worse as a team in 2014 he really was a run of the mill QB, living off of 2013 if you ask me.
Orlando RMF
Footballguy
Here are the numbers:
ear ▴ School Conf Class Pos G Cmp Att Pct Yds Y/A AY/A TD Int Rate 2013 Florida State ACC FR QB 14 257 384 66.9 4057 10.6 11.5 40 10 184.8 2014 Florida State ACC SO QB 13 305 467 65.3 3907 8.4 7.7 25 18 145.5
While the yards and completion % is similar, He had 80 more attempts and 150 less yards. He also had 15 less TDs while racking up almost twice as many INTs. A 25 TDs and 18 INTs is really just an above average QB, not a first overall pick, IMO.
Sorry the table screwed up, try http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/jameis-winston-1.html
ear ▴ School Conf Class Pos G Cmp Att Pct Yds Y/A AY/A TD Int Rate 2013 Florida State ACC FR QB 14 257 384 66.9 4057 10.6 11.5 40 10 184.8 2014 Florida State ACC SO QB 13 305 467 65.3 3907 8.4 7.7 25 18 145.5
While the yards and completion % is similar, He had 80 more attempts and 150 less yards. He also had 15 less TDs while racking up almost twice as many INTs. A 25 TDs and 18 INTs is really just an above average QB, not a first overall pick, IMO.
Sorry the table screwed up, try http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/jameis-winston-1.html
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ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
That's because FSU was a much better team in 2013. His numbers were better last year, but his ability to put a team on his shoulders and win was better this year.
Quez
Footballguy
He may of had a change of heart after the last baseball season. He also may have started to realize at the pro level he would need to focus on football the entire offseason.
He may change his mind and want to play baseball in a few years. After seeing the Josh Freeman plummet from grace nothing surprises me.
CalBear
Footballguy
Here's another Winston gem, where he's not under pressure, makes a horrible decision to throw to a double-covered receiver, and underthrows him by several yards.
Or this lovely game, where he starts by staring down his receiver and throwing an inaccurate ball for an interception, follows it up by overthrowing into triple coverage for another interception, and finishes by lofting a ball into a sea of opponents. All without pressure.
Or this lovely game, where he starts by staring down his receiver and throwing an inaccurate ball for an interception, follows it up by overthrowing into triple coverage for another interception, and finishes by lofting a ball into a sea of opponents. All without pressure.
Old Smiley
Footballguy
MAC_32
Footballguy
Again, believe what you want about the neck up, but to say he didn't put out a lot of bad tape in 2014 would be lying to yourself.
Winston may be more pro-ready today, but a HOF QB's career these days can be nearly 20 years long. Winston may be more ready to get the Bucs above .500 this year, but I can't help but feel that Mariota has more of the intangibles to be greater over the long haul. Time will tell, of course.
Grahamburn
Footballguy
This is the biggest problem with having a front office who just went 2-14 calling the shots. They can't afford to wait for Mariota.bucsbaby said:
jurb26
Footballguy
What intangibles are you looking for? Winston by and large is said to have outstanding intangibles. It's brought up nearly everytime you hear someone talk about him. His teammates love playing for him, he works harder than anyone in the team, his football IQ is as high as many have ever seen, he's won in difficult situations, his game seems to get better when the stakes are highest and he has natural leadership qualities.bucsbaby said:
mr roboto
Footballguy
Just because Winston is more pro ready doesn't mean Mariota wouldn't start day 1. Actually the running QBs have better starts to their careers (Cam, RG3, Kaep) precisely because they have a skill they can fall back on before they come up to speed in the pocket game.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Mariota isn't a running QB. He's a QB that can run.
I think there's a big difference.
mr roboto
Footballguy
^^^ I know but I'm simply saying that the rookie QBs that can run tend to have faster starts to their careers (but the concern is less sustained success as the league gets tape on them). Just that the narrative of Winston being more helpful to teams in the beginning but less upside long term seems to me to be exactly opposite.
pizzatyme
Footballguy
I had some questions about Mariotta's arm strength going into the combine, but he seems to be able to make every throw.
I like him over Winston by a smidge just because of the off-field stuff.
I don't knock Winston for having the confidence to try to be a 2-way athlete. And I give him credit for deciding to focus solely on football. He also seems like a gregarious guy.
I like him over Winston by a smidge just because of the off-field stuff.
I don't knock Winston for having the confidence to try to be a 2-way athlete. And I give him credit for deciding to focus solely on football. He also seems like a gregarious guy.
But no difference at all when it comes to the point of that skill helping a rookie. Still not something I'd factor in too heavily, though, unless my ONLY consideration as a GM were first-year success -- if, say, not only my job but my future NFL employment prospects demanded success right away.For a GM hoping to build the best team, I'd pass on both. Right now, I'd probably lean toward Williams or a trade down. There are always teams with rube GM's that grossly overvalue iffy and flawed "top" QB prospects.
As a fan, I'd be rooting for my team to fleece those guys, or else take the best player in the draft. But most fans would rather reach for the shiny object than build slowly and reliably with world-class blue collar guys. Little surprised so many TB fans are that way, though, since the only team success they've ever had has been through building exactly that way.
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Grahamburn
Footballguy
I'd go into Tampa's QB history, but it's just so depressing. I don't want to ruin my good mood. We, fans of the Bucs, are so starved for a Franchise QB because we've never had one.
The team success they had with defense was in a completely different era. NFL franchise aren't winning that way anymore. All you have to do is look at the franchises in the playoffs the last few years. Even the teams who get there with great defense like the Arizona Cardinals have absolutely no chance without a QB. There are just way too many rules favoring the offense now.
CalBear
Footballguy
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the guy who threw 18 interceptions put out a lot more bad tape than the guy who threw 4.
Like this one; stares down the receiver, throws into triple coverage, off-target (with no pressure).
Or here's a great decision under pressure on first down: a blind jump pass into the middle of the field.
Or under no pressure with a 3-man rush, failing to see the linebacker, and throwing way behind the receiver to boot.
jurb26
Footballguy
You're not going out on a limb or fooling anyone. You've shown no objectivity on Winston or Mariota and I wouldn't expect that to change now.
CalBear
Footballguy
Do you have any specific comments about the plays I've posted? I think the analysis is pretty objective; they all represent horrible decisions by Winston, and most of them are also poorly thrown balls. Do you have an argument other than ad hominem?
jurb26
Footballguy
I've acknowleged Winston having problems with specific coverages and overconfidence leading to Ints numerous times. Have you ever said anything positive about him?I've put holes in both players game. Seems the only ones who get defensive about it is the Mariota crowd. Winston side seems to be OK acknowledging he can be critisized.
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MAC_32
Footballguy
Ignoring the bad tape is just as silly. Every QB has bad tape, but there's a line. Jameis crossed it in 2014. Mariota has his share of misses too, but throughout his career he has minimized the damage from those miscues; something Winston failed to do throughout last year.
When you're evaluating two great, but flawed, QB prospects I think what's going on upstairs is the best tie breaker. If you think that's Winston I think you're crazy, so I must think the Bucs brain trust is nuts, and if they pick him over Mariota I will.
jurb26
Footballguy
Mariota plays in an offense that limits mistakes by its very nature and isn't near as complex as Winston's. Sure, he runs it very well and better than anyone before him. Saying Winston made more mistakes than Mariota and taking it as a number, on surface value, doesn't even begin to tell the complete story.
MAC_32
Footballguy
jurb26
Footballguy
The point is that context matters and you continually sight all these "mistakes" and yet don't provide any.
Grahamburn
Footballguy
The obvious answer is he won't be playing for Oregon in the NFL. That being said, I think he'll be fine in time, if not great.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Cal Bear's provided a good start. Keep watching and you'll find more of the same. Draftbreakdown's got a rather extensive database of tape.
CalBear
Footballguy
I don't think Winston is a better decision-maker than Mariota. I really see no evidence of that. I watched a lot of Mariota's games and I think decision-making is his strongest point, and I don't see that for Winston.
I also think the narrative about "pro-style offense" and "NFL throws" is vacuous. More and more NFL teams are running offenses like Oregon's, so there are plenty of places Mariota can go which will appreciate the way he runs that offense.
CalBear
Footballguy
He stared down the receiver, which allowed the DB to make a break on the ball. The ball was also somewhat misplaced. That wasn't a bad decision but the pick is definitely on Winston.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
The biggest stat going against him is 1 rape allegation that will never go away and it can and I think it will get a lot worse.
http://chopchat.com/2015/02/22/erica-kinsman-jameis-winston-drugged/?utm_source=FanSided&utm_medium=Network&utm_campaign=RecentPosts
He got away with it at Florida State, will he get away with it on the national stage in the NFL?
Apparently one famous celebrity never had to answer questions about it and got away with it for decades.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSHt0ZAps2I
jurb26
Footballguy
That pick isn't on Winston for the same reason the pick to end the SB isn't on Wilson only exaggerated almost 10 fold.
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