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Coach Josh McCown (1 Viewer)

I agree that things should be looking up for Tampa. But since Lovie Smith was mentioned . . .

Under Smith's watch, the Bears averaged 497 passing attempts, 3208 passing yards, and 19 passing TD a season. Sure, a lot of that stems from having mediocre QBs prior to trading for Cutler. But overall, the Bears offense was really not a force to be reckoned with under Smith. They were a lot better offense last year AFTER Smith had left.

 
Anarchy99 said:
I agree that things should be looking up for Tampa. But since Lovie Smith was mentioned . . .

Under Smith's watch, the Bears averaged 497 passing attempts, 3208 passing yards, and 19 passing TD a season. Sure, a lot of that stems from having mediocre QBs prior to trading for Cutler. But overall, the Bears offense was really not a force to be reckoned with under Smith. They were a lot better offense last year AFTER Smith had left.
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I think he was aware of this and I imagine it was the main motivation for bringing Jeff Tedford to Tampa with him. That being said, we have no idea how successful Tedford will be as an OC in the NFL. Hopefully Lovie has learned from his mistakes and the mistakes of Tony Dungy. It takes more than just good defense to win.

 
Going from a prolific offense to TB is going to be rough for the journeyman. Add in the Lovie influence and I see the potential for an average year.

 
It will be interesting to see if any of Mccown, schaub, or a Texan is able to put up top 16 stats.

Thinking schaub may be the better short term play.

 
I think the bar is raised for all QBs so being better than mediocre is going to be tough. Marshall is better than Vjax, Forte is better than Martin, and Alshon is probably much better (at least this season) than Evans. I'd even say that Martellus from 2013 > Austin 2014.

So I am expecting a poor man's version of McCown 2013 this year. Weapons aren't as sharp and there are a lot of unknowns. I see him averaging about 260-270 and 1-2 touchdowns per game. WHich is fine work on an emerging team but isn't really much more than a fantasy backup. Plus he has to hold off Mike Glennon. Which isn't like holding off Luck or anything but isn't something we can totally dismiss.

Solid QB2.

 
Sabertooth said:
I think the bar is raised for all QBs so being better than mediocre is going to be tough. Marshall is better than Vjax, Forte is better than Martin, and Alshon is probably much better (at least this season) than Evans. I'd even say that Martellus from 2013 > Austin 2014.

So I am expecting a poor man's version of McCown 2013 this year. Weapons aren't as sharp and there are a lot of unknowns. I see him averaging about 260-270 and 1-2 touchdowns per game. WHich is fine work on an emerging team but isn't really much more than a fantasy backup. Plus he has to hold off Mike Glennon. Which isn't like holding off Luck or anything but isn't something we can totally dismiss.

Solid QB2.
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This is how I see it too. I chuckle when I keep reading/hearing "McCown's going to a very similar situation in Tampa Bay". Height of the WRs is the only similarity.

Forte >>> Doug Martin

Brandon Marshall >> Vincent Jackson

Alshon Jeffery >>>>> Rookie Mike Evans (for 2014 at a minimum)

Martellus Bennett > Rookie ASJ

Trestman offense >>>>>>>>>>>>> Lovie offense, especially when passing.

 
Until we actually see Lovie hindering the offense with a Dungy-esque philosophy I'm going to withhold judgement. Supposedly he is going to be completely "hands off" of Tedford's offense. Lovie also was promised complete control over player personnel when he was hired, and the Bucs didn't draft one single defensive player.

 
The relatively poor performance of CHI's offenses during Lovie's tenure seems more a result of horrible offensive coordinators (i.e. Martz and Tice). Lovie chose them, I believe, so he can't escape all blame... but the offenses CHI employed were not of his construct (and he wasn't doing the playcalling). So, in my view, we cannot extrapolate very much from those teams as we look forward at Tampa Bay's offense in the next couple of seasons. Lovie's impact on the offense is small, it seems to me, while Tedford's is very large. If someone made the case that the offense would be lousy due to Tedford, I'd be much more interested to hear it...

 
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What is Tedford's NFL experience? I thought he was mainly a college guy who churned out a bunch of busts and Aaron Rodgers.

 
Grahamburn said:
Sabertooth said:
What is Tedford's NFL experience? I thought he was mainly a college guy who churned out a bunch of busts and Aaron Rodgers.
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0. What was Chip Kelly's?
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He had none I don't think . But Kelly was hired into the NFL as a head coach, not an OC. I'm not FOR Tedford or AGAINST him. I know his name was synonymous with QBs busts back in the day until Rodgers came through. That might actually be a positive though.

I just don't think you can assume his offense is going to work anything like Trestman's who was a prodigy of Bill Walsh. I think its 50/50 that he even holds that job in two years. Lovie went through a crapton of OC guys in Chicago.

 
Sabertooth said:
Grahamburn said:
Sabertooth said:
What is Tedford's NFL experience? I thought he was mainly a college guy who churned out a bunch of busts and Aaron Rodgers.
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0. What was Chip Kelly's?
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He had none I don't think . But Kelly was hired into the NFL as a head coach, not an OC. I'm not FOR Tedford or AGAINST him. I know his name was synonymous with QBs busts back in the day until Rodgers came through. That might actually be a positive though.

I just don't think you can assume his offense is going to work anything like Trestman's who was a prodigy of Bill Walsh. I think its 50/50 that he even holds that job in two years. Lovie went through a crapton of OC guys in Chicago.
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I largely agree here. We don't have much to go on with Tedford as an NFL OC, good or bad. Time will tell. I just don't like people writing off McCown due to "Lovie's" offenses in CHI. Doesn't work, imo, because only the defenses in CHI were Lovie's. Writing McCown off because you don't think Tedford can hack it as the OC in TB potentially holds water, but I've yet to hear that argument. Lovie's ability to hire OC's is very much in question... and doesn't boost my confidence in Tedford, that is for sure. That said, I do think the team has some decent (RB/WR) weapons with which Tedford can work.

 
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Lovie's continued inability to put adequate offenses on the field is one of several things that I questioned in my post. He couldn't do it. Whether or not he ran the offense himself or couldn't delegate, that's what happened. Tedford's role in TB doesn't sway my opinion that Lovie doesn't know how to construct a consistently good NFL offense-again directly or via proxy, doesn't matter to me. Maybe Tedford proves me wrong, but until I see it that's my view.

To be fair though, Lovie/Tedford offense was only one of the reasons that I'm writing off McCown. I was actually mad when Lovie was fired, for whatever that was worth. I was wrong there, I may be wrong about Love, time will tell.

 
Sabertooth said:
Grahamburn said:
Sabertooth said:
What is Tedford's NFL experience? I thought he was mainly a college guy who churned out a bunch of busts and Aaron Rodgers.
Click to expand...
0. What was Chip Kelly's?
Click to expand...
He had none I don't think . But Kelly was hired into the NFL as a head coach, not an OC. I'm not FOR Tedford or AGAINST him. I know his name was synonymous with QBs busts back in the day until Rodgers came through. That might actually be a positive though.

I just don't think you can assume his offense is going to work anything like Trestman's who was a prodigy of Bill Walsh. I think its 50/50 that he even holds that job in two years. Lovie went through a crapton of OC guys in Chicago.
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Shouldn't Tedford's ability to coach up QB's into being better players be viewed as a positive thing? Especially for the purposes of this thread.

I'm not assuing Tedford's offense will be anything like Trestman's. I was refuting several opinions that Lovie will have any influence over the offense whatsoever. His offenseive woes are what got him fired in Chicago. I'm surprised more people can't see that he's likely learned from those mistakes.

 
Grahamburn said:
Sabertooth said:
What is Tedford's NFL experience? I thought he was mainly a college guy who churned out a bunch of busts and Aaron Rodgers.
Click to expand...
0. What was Chip Kelly's?
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Kelly is hard to dissect in terms of what he really "did" for the Eagles offense. On the surface, yes the team scored way more than the season before and added a full yard per play on offense. As far as the frenetic pace and running a ton of plays, they actually ran 25 fewer plays than the 2012 season. And the 2013 Eagles offense in terms of points, yardage, and yards per play were very comparable to the 2011 offensive numbers. Bottom line, the Eagles offense malfunctioned in 2012 and it bounced back in 2013. Is that all Kelly's doing?

As far as last year went, Philadelphia posted 16% of their total yards and 23% of the season's points in blowouts against the Raiders and Bears. I realize you can't cherry pick statistics and outcomes, but I think those two games made the Eagles offense appear a little bit better than they really were. Those 2 games upped their season scoring by 3.3 ppg and their yards/gm by 16 yards. Certainly Kelly helped the offense, but how much is hard to calculate. We'll see h ow things go in year two.

 
Grahamburn said:
Sabertooth said:
Grahamburn said:
Sabertooth said:
What is Tedford's NFL experience? I thought he was mainly a college guy who churned out a bunch of busts and Aaron Rodgers.
Click to expand...
0. What was Chip Kelly's?
Click to expand...
He had none I don't think . But Kelly was hired into the NFL as a head coach, not an OC. I'm not FOR Tedford or AGAINST him. I know his name was synonymous with QBs busts back in the day until Rodgers came through. That might actually be a positive though.

I just don't think you can assume his offense is going to work anything like Trestman's who was a prodigy of Bill Walsh. I think its 50/50 that he even holds that job in two years. Lovie went through a crapton of OC guys in Chicago.
Click to expand...
Shouldn't Tedford's ability to coach up QB's into being better players be viewed as a positive thing? Especially for the purposes of this thread.

I'm not assuing Tedford's offense will be anything like Trestman's. I was refuting several opinions that Lovie will have any influence over the offense whatsoever. His offenseive woes are what got him fired in Chicago. I'm surprised more people can't see that he's likely learned from those mistakes.
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Yeah, that's why I said the bolded.

 
Maybe Lovie "learns from those mistakes" by having a lot more input into the offense. Which could be a positive or a negative.

 
If he starts, I think he'll be serviceable but not great. It's not like he'll be drafted to be someones #1 QB, so I suppose if cheap enough there is potential upside based on TBs offensive talent (on paper) this year. I just don't think he's a good QB. Trestman and the Bears were the ideal situation for him, and they got 5-6 really good games out of him, but I don't believe that means much this year. I see his story playing out more like Scott Mitchell's and Matt Flynn's than Rich Gannon's.

 
Grahamburn said:
Power Monster said:
Going from a prolific offense to TB is going to be rough for the journeyman. Add in the Lovie influence and I see the potential for an average year.
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So you know what Tampa's offense is going to look like this season?
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No but I understand Lovie's impact on the offensive side of the ball and it does not translate into anything juicy for a QB that some might be overinflating. Take away the games that he had in Chicago last year and you have a very average journeyman who has a great attitude. Is TB going to have the playmakers that the Bears had? I don't think they will. Lovie always stresses the running game and defense. Hope it changes as TB has some solid receivers but I think we might see a ball control offense develop for TB...

 
Josh McCown - QB - Buccaneers
Josh McCown enters training camp "entrenched" as the starting quarterback.
The new Bucs regime backtracked on their disdain for Mike Glennon, but that doesn't mean the second-year man will have a chance to win the starting gig. McCown was hand-picked by Lovie Smith to come in and emulate the basketball on grass passing game he had so much success with in Chicago last season. "I'm excited because you know where you stand going into camp so it's definitely a little bit of a departure from different years," McCown said.
Related: Mike Glennon

Source: Tampa Bay Times
Jul 24 - 9:13 AM

 
It is obviously too early to make any decisive judgements, but a number of things happened this week that do not bode well for Josh McCown. McCown struggled in his first preseason game. He turned the ball over twice, and was under almost constant pressure. There were concerns about the Bucs interior linemen and that seems justified. McCown was outplayed by Glennon. Glennon played more than McCown and put in a pretty solid performance. But to me the most worrisome thing might not have even occurred in this game. In the Bears game Jimmy Claussen and Jordan Palmer put in very good performances. That is Jimmy Claussen who was out of football last year, and was a train wreck in his three prior years in Carolina. Claussen looked good in his debut with the Bears. What that says to me is that Trestman might be very good at getting good production out of mediocre talent at the QB position. This might be more proof that the mediocre journeyman QB we saw in McCown before last year, might be the real Josh McCown, and what we saw last year was a Trestman creation.

 
Glennon definitely did not outplay McCown, unless you want to completely ignore that one guy was playing against starters and the other wasn't.

All of Glennon's series in the first half were awful as well.

 
Premier said:
Glennon definitely did not outplay McCown, unless you want to completely ignore that one guy was playing against starters and the other wasn't.

All of Glennon's series in the first half were awful as well.
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Umm, no. Maybe the reason Glennon outplayed him was because he was with the 2s but he was much better.
 
jurb26 said:
Premier said:
Glennon definitely did not outplay McCown, unless you want to completely ignore that one guy was playing against starters and the other wasn't.

All of Glennon's series in the first half were awful as well.
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Umm, no. Maybe the reason Glennon outplayed him was because he was with the 2s but he was much better.
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Not in the second and third quarter. If you want to argue that Glennon was great in the fourth quarter with total scrubs, have at it.

Mike Glennon relieved McCown in the second quarter and played into the second half but wasnt a whole lot more effective until the fourth quarter when he led the Buccaneers on their lone TD drive of the night. Glennon put the Bucs in the end zone with a six-yard TD pass to Tommy Streeter. The former Wolfpack standout finished the night 11-of-19 for 140 yards.
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Premier said:
jurb26 said:
Premier said:
Glennon definitely did not outplay McCown, unless you want to completely ignore that one guy was playing against starters and the other wasn't.

All of Glennon's series in the first half were awful as well.
Click to expand...
Umm, no. Maybe the reason Glennon outplayed him was because he was with the 2s but he was much better.
Click to expand...
Not in the second and third quarter. If you want to argue that Glennon was great in the fourth quarter with total scrubs, have at it.

Mike Glennon relieved McCown in the second quarter and played into the second half but wasnt a whole lot more effective until the fourth quarter when he led the Buccaneers on their lone TD drive of the night. Glennon put the Bucs in the end zone with a six-yard TD pass to Tommy Streeter. The former Wolfpack standout finished the night 11-of-19 for 140 yards.
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McCown turned the ball over 2x and had another fumble that was recovered by TB. Glennon didn't turn the ball over or fumble at all. That is a significant improvement. Especially seeing how awful McCown's int actually was.
 
We all know wherever lovie goes, his opportunistic defense follows. Is the same true for his oline play? Can't wait to see him insult the fans with his"we like the guys we have, they'll be fine" routine.

 
jurb26 said:
Premier said:
jurb26 said:
Premier said:
Glennon definitely did not outplay McCown, unless you want to completely ignore that one guy was playing against starters and the other wasn't.

All of Glennon's series in the first half were awful as well.
Click to expand...
Umm, no. Maybe the reason Glennon outplayed him was because he was with the 2s but he was much better.
Click to expand...
Not in the second and third quarter. If you want to argue that Glennon was great in the fourth quarter with total scrubs, have at it.
Mike Glennon relieved McCown in the second quarter and played into the second half but wasnt a whole lot more effective until the fourth quarter when he led the Buccaneers on their lone TD drive of the night. Glennon put the Bucs in the end zone with a six-yard TD pass to Tommy Streeter. The former Wolfpack standout finished the night 11-of-19 for 140 yards.
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Click to expand...
McCown turned the ball over 2x and had another fumble that was recovered by TB. Glennon didn't turn the ball over or fumble at all. That is a significant improvement. Especially seeing how awful McCown's int actually was.
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McCown couldn't make it to his back foot to throw once the whole game. Especially that pick he threw. If you think the Glennon statue would do better in the same circumstances then ok. You can be wrong. :shrug:

 
Premier said:
jurb26 said:
Premier said:
jurb26 said:
Premier said:
Glennon definitely did not outplay McCown, unless you want to completely ignore that one guy was playing against starters and the other wasn't.

All of Glennon's series in the first half were awful as well.
Click to expand...
Umm, no. Maybe the reason Glennon outplayed him was because he was with the 2s but he was much better.
Click to expand...
Not in the second and third quarter. If you want to argue that Glennon was great in the fourth quarter with total scrubs, have at it.
Mike Glennon relieved McCown in the second quarter and played into the second half but wasnt a whole lot more effective until the fourth quarter when he led the Buccaneers on their lone TD drive of the night. Glennon put the Bucs in the end zone with a six-yard TD pass to Tommy Streeter. The former Wolfpack standout finished the night 11-of-19 for 140 yards.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
McCown turned the ball over 2x and had another fumble that was recovered by TB. Glennon didn't turn the ball over or fumble at all. That is a significant improvement. Especially seeing how awful McCown's int actually was.
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McCown couldn't make it to his back foot to throw once the whole game. Especially that pick he threw. If you think the Glennon statue would do better in the same circumstances then ok. You can be wrong. :shrug:
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Glennon had the same problems but didn't try to force things like McCown. If anything, Glennon tries to protect the ball too much and takes sacks. I know you have it out for Glennon, you've made that clear in the past. How you can think turning the ball over 2 times on 4 possessions is better than not turning it over on 5 is beyond me.

 
Sweeping generalizations? Yeah, nobody did anything of the sort. We were discussing the game last night. 1 preseason game.

 
@UncleChaps: ?? RT @ryanohalloran: On McCown's passes last nt, he threw/was hit in 2.06, 3.09, 2.63, 3.06, 2.87, 2.78 secs vs. #Jaguars first-unit DL.

Not sure what you would expect any QB to do there.

 
Premier said:
@UncleChaps: RT @ryanohalloran: On McCown's passes last nt, he threw/was hit in 2.06, 3.09, 2.63, 3.06, 2.87, 2.78 secs vs. #Jaguars first-unit DL.

Not sure what you would expect any QB to do there.
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Not an indictment of McCown, but the Bucs O-line is a work in progress, with both guard positions underperforming badly.

 
Premier said:
@UncleChaps: RT @ryanohalloran: On McCown's passes last nt, he threw/was hit in 2.06, 3.09, 2.63, 3.06, 2.87, 2.78 secs vs. #Jaguars first-unit DL.

Not sure what you would expect any QB to do there.
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I'm trying to figure out if that's more JAX DL being very good or TB OL being just terrible. I'm leaning toward JAX D, but suggestions are always welcome.

 
Monsters of the Midway said:
Premier said:
@UncleChaps: RT @ryanohalloran: On McCown's passes last nt, he threw/was hit in 2.06, 3.09, 2.63, 3.06, 2.87, 2.78 secs vs. #Jaguars first-unit DL.

Not sure what you would expect any QB to do there.
Click to expand...
I'm trying to figure out if that's more JAX DL being very good or TB OL being just terrible. I'm leaning toward JAX D, but suggestions are always welcome.
Click to expand...
I'm saying the Tampa line because I expected it to suck, but the jags defensive front is opening my eyes some. Want to see them do it again.
 
Premier said:
@UncleChaps: RT @ryanohalloran: On McCown's passes last nt, he threw/was hit in 2.06, 3.09, 2.63, 3.06, 2.87, 2.78 secs vs. #Jaguars first-unit DL.

Not sure what you would expect any QB to do there.
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What are the times for Glennon?I expect QBs to protect the ball.

 
jurb26 said:
Premier said:
@UncleChaps: RT @ryanohalloran: On McCown's passes last nt, he threw/was hit in 2.06, 3.09, 2.63, 3.06, 2.87, 2.78 secs vs. #Jaguars first-unit DL.

Not sure what you would expect any QB to do there.
Click to expand...
What are the times for Glennon?I expect QBs to protect the ball.
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I dunno. Tweet the guy and ask. But I can promise you it was a lot higher.

 
Premier said:
jurb26 said:
Premier said:
@UncleChaps: RT @ryanohalloran: On McCown's passes last nt, he threw/was hit in 2.06, 3.09, 2.63, 3.06, 2.87, 2.78 secs vs. #Jaguars first-unit DL.

Not sure what you would expect any QB to do there.
Click to expand...
What are the times for Glennon?I expect QBs to protect the ball.
Click to expand...
I dunno. Tweet the guy and ask. But I can promise you it was a lot higher.
Click to expand...
So you don't know what your talking about.. Good to know.
 
jurb26 said:
Premier said:
jurb26 said:
Premier said:
@UncleChaps: RT @ryanohalloran: On McCown's passes last nt, he threw/was hit in 2.06, 3.09, 2.63, 3.06, 2.87, 2.78 secs vs. #Jaguars first-unit DL.

Not sure what you would expect any QB to do there.
Click to expand...
What are the times for Glennon?I expect QBs to protect the ball.
Click to expand...
I dunno. Tweet the guy and ask. But I can promise you it was a lot higher.
Click to expand...
So you don't know what your talking about.. Good to know.
Click to expand...
:lmao: Yea ok.

 
Premier said:
jurb26 said:
Premier said:
jurb26 said:
Premier said:
@UncleChaps: RT @ryanohalloran: On McCown's passes last nt, he threw/was hit in 2.06, 3.09, 2.63, 3.06, 2.87, 2.78 secs vs. #Jaguars first-unit DL.

Not sure what you would expect any QB to do there.
Click to expand...
What are the times for Glennon?I expect QBs to protect the ball.
Click to expand...
I dunno. Tweet the guy and ask. But I can promise you it was a lot higher.
Click to expand...
So you don't know what your talking about.. Good to know.
Click to expand...
:lmao: Yea ok.
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Providing the numbers to only McCown provides what context to the argument here? Maybe it's more, maybe it's less. We don't know and the point has no meaning without providing full context. You said earlier Glennon looked awful in the first half. Then you moved the goal post to 2nd and 3rd quarter. Then you created an excuse for McCown throwing off his back foot while under pressure resulting in a pick 6. Then you accused me/people of making sweeping generalizations about the game while resulting to name calling. Now you bring incomplete stats to the table as a support to your stance. Yeah, you win I guess. This is a waste of time.

It's 1 preseason game. Create whatever assurances you want off it. Glennon performed decently, McCown performed poorly. It doesn't change hardly anything at this point.

 
@LeoHowell8: Among players with 50% or more of their team's dropbacks, Glennon was among the least accurate, per @PFF.

@Bucs_Nation: @LeoHowell8 I was really surprised by how inaccurate he was when re-watching that game. Just straight-up missed a bunch of throws.

I know you're one of the resident trolls here, but maybe you can provide something other than "I like my QB not to have turnovers"

 
Premier said:
@LeoHowell8: Among players with 50% or more of their team's dropbacks, Glennon was among the least accurate, per @PFF.

@Bucs_Nation: @LeoHowell8 I was really surprised by how inaccurate he was when re-watching that game. Just straight-up missed a bunch of throws.

I know you're one of the resident trolls here, but maybe you can provide something other than "I like my QB not to have turnovers"
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Again, nothing to do with the point. I didn't say Glennon was great or accurate. I said he looked decent and better than McCown... Who set the bar incredibly low. Maybe this because he played later, I acknowledged that a long time ago.

Of course instead of staying on topic you change it and again result to name calling.

 
jurb26 said:
Premier said:
@LeoHowell8: Among players with 50% or more of their team's dropbacks, Glennon was among the least accurate, per @PFF.

@Bucs_Nation: @LeoHowell8 I was really surprised by how inaccurate he was when re-watching that game. Just straight-up missed a bunch of throws.

I know you're one of the resident trolls here, but maybe you can provide something other than "I like my QB not to have turnovers"
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Again, nothing to do with the point. I didn't say Glennon was great or accurate. I said he looked decent and better than McCown... Who set the bar incredibly low. Maybe this because he played later, I acknowledged that a long time ago.

Of course instead of staying on topic you change it and again result to name calling.
Click to expand...
It sounds like we both now agree that Glennon sucks. I feel like we made progress here today.

 
Rotoworld:

Josh McCown - QB - Buccaneers

FOX Sports' Alex Marvez reports Josh McCown (thumb) is expected to miss "several weeks."

McCown is currently undergoing a second test on his right thumb. The injury is more serious than initially thought, and will likely cost him multiple games. Mike Glennon will get an extended look in McCown's absence and could remain the starter going forward. McCown was struggling to move the offense even when healthy, and had a 2:4 TD:INT ratio through two and a half games prior to going down.

Source: Alex Marvez on Twitter

Sep 19 - 8:50 PM
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