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College Savings - other than 529's? (1 Viewer)

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Footballguy
Interested in getting a little info on college savings for our two young ones. I'm not certain I want to go the 529 route due to possible restrictions on getting/using the money (what happens if they dont go to college or get full rides)? So can a IRA be used for college? We have Roths we are no longer contributing to because they are not part of our retirement plan, but could we contribute to them with the intention of using them for kids college? Is there a downside to choosing this over the 529?

 
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Use a combination of Roth's and 529's. If your kids do not use all of the 529 plan, you can roll it to another child, yourself of your grandchildren. The Roth's have more flexibility in what you can do with them, but a combination is not a bad idea and you may not have options for the Roth depending on your income levels.

 
I did UTMA's and 529's for my kids. The one provision I liked for 529's was that you could roll over to other kids. Even if they get scholarships, you can use them to pay rent, expenses, etc. Trust me - spending the money won't be a problem. The vehicle is less important. Just save.

 
I have 529's for my kids. I put some money in but I'm not aggressive with the amount I contribute - I like the flexibility of having $ available to invest how I like. When i set it up, I didn't go with the one offered by my state - avoiding state income tax on the interest is really not that big of a sweetener for me.

 
I did UTMA's and 529's for my kids. The one provision I liked for 529's was that you could roll over to other kids. Even if they get scholarships, you can use them to pay rent, expenses, etc. Trust me - spending the money won't be a problem. The vehicle is less important. Just save.
UTMA is a little wild if your kid gets estranged. At 18 they can stroke a check for the balance and you can't stop it.

 
I have 529's for my kids. I put some money in but I'm not aggressive with the amount I contribute - I like the flexibility of having $ available to invest how I like. When i set it up, I didn't go with the one offered by my state - avoiding state income tax on the interest is really not that big of a sweetener for me.
What state are you in? For most, you get a deduction on the contributions.

 
I have 529's for my kids. I put some money in but I'm not aggressive with the amount I contribute - I like the flexibility of having $ available to invest how I like. When i set it up, I didn't go with the one offered by my state - avoiding state income tax on the interest is really not that big of a sweetener for me.
What state are you in? For most, you get a deduction on the contributions.
Illinois. you put me in a happy state

 
Brony said:
humpback said:
Brony said:
I have 529's for my kids. I put some money in but I'm not aggressive with the amount I contribute - I like the flexibility of having $ available to invest how I like. When i set it up, I didn't go with the one offered by my state - avoiding state income tax on the interest is really not that big of a sweetener for me.
What state are you in? For most, you get a deduction on the contributions.
Illinois. you put me in a happy state
Illinois seems to have one of the better plans, and you would get the deduction for contributions- curious as to why you went with another state.

 
humpback said:
Brony said:
I have 529's for my kids. I put some money in but I'm not aggressive with the amount I contribute - I like the flexibility of having $ available to invest how I like. When i set it up, I didn't go with the one offered by my state - avoiding state income tax on the interest is really not that big of a sweetener for me.
What state are you in? For most, you get a deduction on the contributions.
I'm just getting started in this myself (baby is due in August) and am wondering if these are really worth considering though.

For instance, in Utah we get a 5% tax credit on up to the first $3700/year worth of contributions. That works out to $186/year as a tax credit. Some nice extra spending cash, sure, but I've got to imagine that if any plans typically perform better than others the financial gain in using those would dwarf an extra $186 in your pocket every year.

 
Brony said:
humpback said:
Brony said:
I have 529's for my kids. I put some money in but I'm not aggressive with the amount I contribute - I like the flexibility of having $ available to invest how I like. When i set it up, I didn't go with the one offered by my state - avoiding state income tax on the interest is really not that big of a sweetener for me.
What state are you in? For most, you get a deduction on the contributions.
Illinois. you put me in a happy state
Illinois seems to have one of the better plans, and you would get the deduction for contributions- curious as to why you went with another state.
I like having my $ all in one institution and I can manage my Alaska 529 through my current investment house. You are right, the deduction on the contribution is worth considering, but to me, I prefer the convenience and flexibility over that small gain.

 
humpback said:
Brony said:
I have 529's for my kids. I put some money in but I'm not aggressive with the amount I contribute - I like the flexibility of having $ available to invest how I like. When i set it up, I didn't go with the one offered by my state - avoiding state income tax on the interest is really not that big of a sweetener for me.
What state are you in? For most, you get a deduction on the contributions.
I'm just getting started in this myself (baby is due in August) and am wondering if these are really worth considering though.

For instance, in Utah we get a 5% tax credit on up to the first $3700/year worth of contributions. That works out to $186/year as a tax credit. Some nice extra spending cash, sure, but I've got to imagine that if any plans typically perform better than others the financial gain in using those would dwarf an extra $186 in your pocket every year.
Congrats!

Sure, if you had a crystal ball and knew one plan would outperform another by say 1% per year, that would more than make up for the 5% credit you're getting upfront (in your case, since you have a long time frame- as you get closer to college age, the out performance would have to be greater). The problem is, there's really no way of knowing that in advance. Some plans stand out in a negative/expensive way, but for the most part they have similar investment options in fairly low-cost mutual funds. I just looked and Utah uses Vanguard (among others). Assuming you're comparing a typical S&P 500 index fund, I don't think many would be able to beat that, certainly not by enough to make up that 5%. Obviously you have to look at other fees, etc., as well when making the comparison.

 
How much are you guys tucking away a year into the 529 to ensure you don't have to pay a cent for college later?

 
How much are you guys tucking away a year into the 529 to ensure you don't have to pay a cent for college later?
It will all be based on how much you expect to pay for college which varies significantly from 10-12k per year for a generic state school to >$50k per year for a decent private school.

It is almost impossible to gauge because once you add in the variable I explained above with the two variables of not being able to predict the growth rate of your investments nor the growth rate of school costs rising, it becomes more educated guess work than anything else.

They have plenty of calculators online to play with the variables. Just plug in some numbers to get a feel

http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/collegeplanner/collegeplanner.jsp

 
How much are you guys tucking away a year into the 529 to ensure you don't have to pay a cent for college later?
Probably not enough, but it all depends on the colleges my kids choose. If they both want to go to an expensive private school where it will run us 50k/year/kid, we'll have to pay from salary as well. Right now, we're just maxing out our Roths so that's 11k/yr.

 
$233/month * 12 months * 18 years = $50K, give or take. That's just the principal contributions, without an interest calculation.

Figuring that will probably cover 90% or so of tuition and books for 4 years at an in-state university, 2 years out-of-state at a state uni, or 1 year of private. If she's going private, scholarships and student loans will have to be involved, because that's a privilege she'll have to earn. I'll probably sing a different tune if it's a school that's really worth it, but the top level state schools should be sufficient for her to have the right opportunities in life. I hope so, at least.

 
How much are you guys tucking away a year into the 529 to ensure you don't have to pay a cent for college later?
It will all be based on how much you expect to pay for college which varies significantly from 10-12k per year for a generic state school to >$50k per year for a decent private school.

It is almost impossible to gauge because once you add in the variable I explained above with the two variables of not being able to predict the growth rate of your investments nor the growth rate of school costs rising, it becomes more educated guess work than anything else.

They have plenty of calculators online to play with the variables. Just plug in some numbers to get a feel

http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/collegeplanner/collegeplanner.jsp
It says I will need 500 kajillion dollars.

 
$233/month * 12 months * 18 years = $50K, give or take. That's just the principal contributions, without an interest calculation.
The interest/growth is where it gets interesting.

If schools increase at 5% a year, a school that costs $50k a year now will cost in 18 years:

120k: freshman

126k: sophomore

132k: junior

139k: senior

 
$233/month * 12 months * 18 years = $50K, give

or take. That's just the principal contributions, without an interest calculation.
The interest/growth is where it gets interesting.

If schools increase at 5% a year, a school that costs $50k a year now will cost in 18 years:

120k: freshman

126k: sophomore

132k: junior

139k: senior
My guess is it will cost twice as much as the above

 
Agreed, mine is 4 years old, so it's a 14 year horizon. That's why I don't include the interest in the projection, hopefully it offsets the tuition increase to a decent extent.

 
$233/month * 12 months * 18 years = $50K, give

or take. That's just the principal contributions, without an interest calculation.
The interest/growth is where it gets interesting.

If schools increase at 5% a year, a school that costs $50k a year now will cost in 18 years:

120k: freshman

126k: sophomore

132k: junior

139k: senior
My guess is it will cost twice as much as the above
that seems high to me. That would put the growth of college costs at roughly 9% per year for the next 18 if you expect the first year to cost roughly $240k per year at a decent private school.

But I have thought other bubbles were unreachable as well so this could certainly be another one of them. I am thankful my daughter is only 3 years away now.

The 9% would represent a change from the current growth profile which in the last three year has gone from 8.5%, to 4.5% to just 2.9% last year.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/10/23/college-tuition-prices-grow-at-slowest-rate-in-more-than-30-years

 
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A 529 plan has several advantages over the Roth-

No income limits on the contributor

Greater annual contributions allowed

Others can make contributions (in most states)

 
$233/month * 12 months * 18 years = $50K, give

or take. That's just the principal contributions, without an interest calculation.
The interest/growth is where it gets interesting.

If schools increase at 5% a year, a school that costs $50k a year now will cost in 18 years:

120k: freshman

126k: sophomore

132k: junior

139k: senior
My guess is it will cost twice as much as the above
that seems high to me. That would put the

growth of college costs at roughly 9% per year for the next 18 if you expect the first year to cost roughly $240k per year at a decent private school.

But I have thought other bubbles were unreachable as well so this could certainly be another one of them. I am thankful my daughter

is only 3 years away now.

The 9% would represent a change from the current growth profile which in the last three

year has gone from 8.5%, to 4.5% to just 2.9% last year.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013

/10/23/college-tuition-prices-grow-at-slowest-rate-in-more-than-30-years
I would love to be wrong

 
A 529 plan has several advantages over the Roth-

No income limits on the contributor

Greater annual contributions allowed

Others can make contributions (in most states)
Roth has no income limits either. Everyone on this board should know what a backdoor roth is by now. Its been talked about ad nauseam.

 
A 529 plan has several advantages over the Roth-

No income limits on the contributor

Greater annual contributions allowed

Others can make contributions (in most states)
Roth has no income limits either. Everyone on this board should know what a backdoor roth is by now. Its been talked about ad nauseam.
The backdoor Roth can't be used by everyone.

 
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A 529 plan has several advantages over the Roth-

No income limits on the contributor

Greater annual contributions allowed

Others can make contributions (in most states)
Roth has no income limits either. Everyone on this board should know what a backdoor roth is by now. Its been talked about ad nauseam.
The backdoor Roth can't be used by everyone.
Who can't use it?

 
A 529 plan has several advantages over the Roth-

No income limits on the contributor

Greater annual contributions allowed

Others can make contributions (in most states)
Roth has no income limits either. Everyone on this board should know what a backdoor roth is by now. Its been talked about ad nauseam.
The backdoor Roth can't be used by everyone.
Who can't use it?
Perhaps shouldn't use it would be a better term depending on their circumstances. Anyone with money in an existing IRA(s) as they will have to take the value of that money into account when figuring out how much of their backdoor conversion will not be tax free. The 529 plan doesn't have that restriction, along with the other 2 benefits.

 
A 529 plan has several advantages over the Roth-

No income limits on the contributor

Greater annual contributions allowed

Others can make contributions (in most states)
Roth has no income limits either. Everyone on this board should know what a backdoor roth is by now. Its been talked about ad nauseam.
The backdoor Roth can't be used by everyone.
Who can't use it?
Perhaps shouldn't use it would be a better term depending on their circumstances. Anyone with money in an existing IRA(s) as they will have to take the value of that money into account when figuring out how much of their backdoor conversion will not be tax free. The 529 plan doesn't have that restriction, along with the other 2 benefits.
Ok, the tax implications make sense. If taxes aren't an issue, if you go with a Roth as your first option, you can always fall back to the 529 if you max out just as other people can always contribute to a 529. Its not an either/or choice.

 
$233/month * 12 months * 18 years = $50K, give

or take. That's just the principal contributions, without an interest calculation.
The interest/growth is where it gets interesting.

If schools increase at 5% a year, a school that costs $50k a year now will cost in 18 years:

120k: freshman

126k: sophomore

132k: junior

139k: senior
My guess is it will cost twice as much as the above
that seems high to me. That would put the growth of college costs at roughly 9% per year for the next 18 if you expect the first year to cost roughly $240k per year at a decent private school.

But I have thought other bubbles were unreachable as well so this could certainly be another one of them. I am thankful my daughter is only 3 years away now.

The 9% would represent a change from the current growth profile which in the last three year has gone from 8.5%, to 4.5% to just 2.9% last year.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/10/23/college-tuition-prices-grow-at-slowest-rate-in-more-than-30-years
I do think the bubble has happened. It can't continue. Bottom line - save what you can without sacrificing your retirement. I think saving 50K+ per kid is great. Saving 200K is completely unrealistic and not necessary. Awesome to see so many FBG's doing this. I'm 2 years away from having all 3 graduate with no debt (them or me). Not doing grad school - they are on their own.

 
A 529 plan has several advantages over the Roth-

No income limits on the contributor

Greater annual contributions allowed

Others can make contributions (in most states)
Roth has no income limits either. Everyone on this board should know what a backdoor roth is by now. Its been talked about ad nauseam.
The backdoor Roth can't be used by everyone.
Who can't use it?
Perhaps shouldn't use it would be a better term depending on their circumstances. Anyone with money in an existing IRA(s) as they will have to take the value of that money into account when figuring out how much of their backdoor conversion will not be tax free. The 529 plan doesn't have that restriction, along with the other 2 benefits.
Ok, the tax implications make sense. If taxes aren't an issue, if you go with a Roth as your first option, you can always fall back to the 529 if you max out just as other people can always contribute to a 529. Its not an either/or choice.
No, it's not either/or. You also have to figure in any tax credit from your state, which the Roth doesn't give you. For college savings the 529 has advantages the Roth doesn't, that's all.

 
A 529 plan has several advantages over the Roth-

No income limits on the contributor

Greater annual contributions allowed

Others can make contributions (in most states)
Roth has no income limits either. Everyone on this board should know what a backdoor roth is by now. Its been talked about ad nauseam.
The backdoor Roth can't be used by everyone.
Who can't use it?
Perhaps shouldn't use it would be a better term depending on their circumstances. Anyone with money in an existing IRA(s) as they will have to take the value of that money into account when figuring out how much of their backdoor conversion will not be tax free. The 529 plan doesn't have that restriction, along with the other 2 benefits.
Ok, the tax implications make sense. If taxes aren't an issue, if you go with a Roth as your first option, you can always fall back to the 529 if you max out just as other people can always contribute to a 529. Its not an either/or choice.
No, it's not either/or. You also have to figure in any tax credit from your state, which the Roth doesn't give you. For college savings the 529 has advantages the Roth doesn't, that's all.
Yeah, that's the only comparison that counts; the tax advantages the 529 offers vs the greater flexibility you get with a Roth. The other advantages offered by the 529 are pretty irrelevant.

 
A 529 plan has several advantages over the Roth-

No income limits on the contributor

Greater annual contributions allowed

Others can make contributions (in most states)
Roth has no income limits either. Everyone on this board should know what a backdoor roth is by now. Its been talked about ad nauseam.
The backdoor Roth can't be used by everyone.
Who can't use it?
Perhaps shouldn't use it would be a better term depending on their circumstances. Anyone with money in an existing IRA(s) as they will have to take the value of that money into account when figuring out how much of their backdoor conversion will not be tax free. The 529 plan doesn't have that restriction, along with the other 2 benefits.
Ok, the tax implications make sense. If taxes aren't an issue, if you go with a Roth as your first option, you can always fall back to the 529 if you max out just as other people can always contribute to a 529. Its not an either/or choice.
No, it's not either/or. You also have to figure in any tax credit from your state, which the Roth doesn't give you. For college savings the 529 has advantages the Roth doesn't, that's all.
Yeah, that's the only comparison that counts; the tax advantages the 529 offers vs the greater flexibility you get with a Roth. The other advantages offered by the 529 are pretty irrelevant.
Not really irrelevant. As for flexibility, if you haven't hit 59.5 your distributions are limited to contributions as you'll pay taxes on your earnings. Also, you have to find out if the school your child is attending treats Roth distributions as income, even if the IRS does not, as it can affect financial aid.

 
A 529 plan has several advantages over the Roth-

No income limits on the contributor

Greater annual contributions allowed

Others can make contributions (in most states)
Roth has no income limits either. Everyone on this board should know what a backdoor roth is by now. Its been talked about ad nauseam.
The backdoor Roth can't be used by everyone.
Who can't use it?
Perhaps shouldn't use it would be a better term depending on their circumstances. Anyone with money in an existing IRA(s) as they will have to take the value of that money into account when figuring out how much of their backdoor conversion will not be tax free. The 529 plan doesn't have that restriction, along with the other 2 benefits.
Ok, the tax implications make sense. If taxes aren't an issue, if you go with a Roth as your first option, you can always fall back to the 529 if you max out just as other people can always contribute to a 529. Its not an either/or choice.
No, it's not either/or. You also have to figure in any tax credit from your state, which the Roth doesn't give you. For college savings the 529 has advantages the Roth doesn't, that's all.
Yeah, that's the only comparison that counts; the tax advantages the 529 offers vs the greater flexibility you get with a Roth. The other advantages offered by the 529 are pretty irrelevant.
Not really irrelevant. As for flexibility, if you haven't hit 59.5 your distributions are limited to contributions as you'll pay taxes on your earnings. Also, you have to find out if the school your child is attending treats Roth distributions as income, even if the IRS does not, as it can affect financial aid.
You're correct, earnings are taxable. I wouldn't withdraw earnings for education. Consider the earnings as apart of retirement package. If you have the funds, still contribute your desired amount to 401k as well as contribute to 529 to make up for the earnings lose while having even a larger retirement nest egg. Otherwise, adjust 401k accordingly and use the amount withheld from 401k for 529. I've done zero research into financial aid considerations. I'm pretty certain we won't be receiving any but something worth investigating for others.

 
I know they aren't perfect but I signed my daughter up for the Florida Pre Paid plan.

http://www.myfloridaprepaid.com/

I figure if college costs continue to skyrocket I'm covered. If the education bubble bursts I can cash it in and send her wherever (or if she isn't college material or wants to go to Harvard). The best part of the whole thing is I cut one check for $500 every month. A fixed price and I know what I'm getting. Also cool is you can add on room and board (I only purchased 2 years of that).

 
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I know they aren't perfect but I signed my daughter up for the Florida Pre Paid plan.

http://www.myfloridaprepaid.com/

I figure if college costs continue to skyrocket I'm covered. If the education bubble bursts I can cash it in and send her wherever (or if she isn't college material or wants to go to Harvard). The best part of the whole thing is I cut one check for $500 every month. A fixed price and I know what I'm getting. Also cool is you can add on room and board (I only purchased 2 years of that).
I took a quick look around but couldn't find prices ...what does it cost a year with room/board if I wanted to use it in 3 years?

 
I know they aren't perfect but I signed my daughter up for the Florida Pre Paid plan.

http://www.myfloridaprepaid.com/

I figure if college costs continue to skyrocket I'm covered. If the education bubble bursts I can cash it in and send her wherever (or if she isn't college material or wants to go to Harvard). The best part of the whole thing is I cut one check for $500 every month. A fixed price and I know what I'm getting. Also cool is you can add on room and board (I only purchased 2 years of that).
I took a quick look around but couldn't find prices ...what does it cost a year with room/board if I wanted to use it in 3 years?
You would have to google it at this point. Open season is around march/April and they take down the prices at that point. If you plan to buy it for a sophomore in HS and use it in three years it's going to be a lot of $$.
 
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I know they aren't perfect but I signed my daughter up for the Florida Pre Paid plan.

http://www.myfloridaprepaid.com/

I figure if college costs continue to skyrocket I'm covered. If the education bubble bursts I can cash it in and send her wherever (or if she isn't college material or wants to go to Harvard). The best part of the whole thing is I cut one check for $500 every month. A fixed price and I know what I'm getting. Also cool is you can add on room and board (I only purchased 2 years of that).
I didn't realize these were still available. I'm in Ohio and will definitely be looking into this.

 
We choose the 529 pre-paid plan 5 years ago for my (then) 10 year old. I choose it mainly because I was concerned about the market and economy so I took the "safer" route (versus the savings option). Anyway, for those interested in the cost (back then anyway), we'll be making our last payment on July 1st. That will be the 60th payment of $756/month or $45,360 total. A burden I'm happy to shed.

 
Ohio also operates a prepaid tuition/guaranteed savings plan (Guaranteed Savings Fund) that was closed to new enrollments in 2003 and will remain closed at least through 2011.
 
We choose the 529 pre-paid plan 5 years ago for my (then) 10 year old. I choose it mainly because I was concerned about the market and economy so I took the "safer" route (versus the savings option). Anyway, for those interested in the cost (back then anyway), we'll be making our last payment on July 1st. That will be the 60th payment of $756/month or $45,360 total. A burden I'm happy to shed.
Thats great. Someone go go buy that BMW he always wanted on July 2'd!

 
I know they aren't perfect but I signed my daughter up for the Florida Pre Paid plan.

http://www.myfloridaprepaid.com/

I figure if college costs continue to skyrocket I'm covered. If the education bubble bursts I can cash it in and send her wherever (or if she isn't college material or wants to go to Harvard). The best part of the whole thing is I cut one check for $500 every month. A fixed price and I know what I'm getting. Also cool is you can add on room and board (I only purchased 2 years of that).
Wow - talk about topical! I smell refund!

http://www.myfloridaprepaid.com/new-law-will-significantly-lower-cost-florida-prepaid-college-plans/

Tallahassee , FL – This week, Governor Rick Scott signed into law House Bill 851, making saving for a college education with a Florida Prepaid College Plan more affordable for Florida families. The law will bring the 4-Year Florida University Plan and 2 + 2 Florida Plan prices down to levels not seen in the past five years. The lump sum price of the 4-Year Florida University Plan for a newborn is anticipated to drop nearly $20,000 from its current price of $54,000 to $35,000 or less. Monthly payments for the same plan are expected to drop at least $100, from $350 to $250 or less. The great news is not just for future Prepaid Plans. It is anticipated that approximately 50,000 existing Prepaid Plans will see refunds and/or payment reductions because of the new law. Refunds and/or payment reductions are expected for 4-Year Florida University Plans and 2 + 2 Florida Plans purchased from Contract Year 2011 to 2014

I'm guessing there is no way they will send me back a check but I'm happy to hear the monthly payment will be dropping.

 
Ohio also operates a prepaid tuition/guaranteed savings plan (Guaranteed Savings Fund) that was closed to new enrollments in 2003 and will remain closed at least through 2011.
There are some states that have pre paid plans that will offer them to non-residents. If I remember correctly Mass is one of them although the plan they offer isn't straight forward.

 
The Ref said:
I know they aren't perfect but I signed my daughter up for the Florida Pre Paid plan.

http://www.myfloridaprepaid.com/

I figure if college costs continue to skyrocket I'm covered. If the education bubble bursts I can cash it in and send her wherever (or if she isn't college material or wants to go to Harvard). The best part of the whole thing is I cut one check for $500 every month. A fixed price and I know what I'm getting. Also cool is you can add on room and board (I only purchased 2 years of that).
Wow - talk about topical! I smell refund!

http://www.myfloridaprepaid.com/new-law-will-significantly-lower-cost-florida-prepaid-college-plans/

Tallahassee , FL – This week, Governor Rick Scott signed into law House Bill 851, making saving for a college education with a Florida Prepaid College Plan more affordable for Florida families. The law will bring the 4-Year Florida University Plan and 2 + 2 Florida Plan prices down to levels not seen in the past five years. The lump sum price of the 4-Year Florida University Plan for a newborn is anticipated to drop nearly $20,000 from its current price of $54,000 to $35,000 or less. Monthly payments for the same plan are expected to drop at least $100, from $350 to $250 or less. The great news is not just for future Prepaid Plans. It is anticipated that approximately 50,000 existing Prepaid Plans will see refunds and/or payment reductions because of the new law. Refunds and/or payment reductions are expected for 4-Year Florida University Plans and 2 + 2 Florida Plans purchased from Contract Year 2011 to 2014

I'm guessing there is no way they will send me back a check but I'm happy to hear the monthly payment will be dropping.
Can you explain how this works for out of state universities. If you contributed 50K to this plan or whatever the price is and your kid goes to Harvard which runs 200k, the state picks up the difference?

 

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