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US Men's National Team (5 Viewers)

:popcorn:

Roger Gonzalez

@RGonzalezCBS

#USMNT transfers news... Am hearing that both USA defenders DeAndre Yedlin and Reggie Cannon are targets for Bundesliga clubs with a move after this season possible for both.

 
:(

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Brian Sciaretta

Fortuna Duseldorf announce that #USMNT goalkeeper Zack Steffen picked up an injury in training. Per the release it was an "inner ligament injury in the knee." 

 
NewlyRetired said:
:(

============================

Brian Sciaretta

Fortuna Duseldorf announce that #USMNT goalkeeper Zack Steffen picked up an injury in training. Per the release it was an "inner ligament injury in the knee." 
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Roger Gonzalez

@RGonzalezCBS

Regarding the knee ligament injury to #USMNT GK Zack Steffen, I'm told it is his MCL, and he'll be out about 4-6 weeks. Also hearing that surgery isn't expected

 
😍

“He’s 17-and-a-half soon, so in such a young age to be so calm on the ball and play for such a big team, it’s very fascinating to see how calm he is and he doesn’t care about anything, he just jumps right into it." -Erling Haaland on Gio Reyna

 
So the US Women lost the majority of their suit against US Soccer.  It looks like the item many pointed out as contradictory went against them.  The courts found that they were actually paid MORE than the men, as we have been saying all along, due to the CBA the players signed where US Soccer had to pay the club salaries.

Obviously this summary judgement will be appealed.  I am unfamiliar with how likely a summary judgement can be over turned on appeal.

 
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James Graham P.

The collective bargaining point was the one so many in the media just couldn't understand--or decided to ignore because it didn't fit the narrative. They chose a compensation structure different than the USMNT...and for good reasons that relate to differences in club contracts.

Then they sued for the lower per-game comp arrangement that they specifically chose. And the whole point of the suit was to cynically leverage the "women get paid less than men!" political angle to pressure a settlement. Frankly, I'm shocked it didn't succeed

==================

Ridge Mahoney

And thus the argument about "apples and oranges" is exposed as the charade it was. By rejecting the bonus-centric structure as used for the men and accepting the guaranteed-salary component (via NWSL), the women sank their own ship. Appeal forthcoming?

 
Good for us soccer for standing their ground legally (even if they made some stupid and insensitive arguments) and good for the courts for not being pressured by a social agenda and media pressure.

I'm all for gender equality and fairness but this complaint was garbage from the start. Shame on the "journalists" that ignored the facts so they could earn a bunch of clicks and Twitter "likes"

 
This is how it always seemed to me, but I could never find good reporting to figure out if the at-first-blush appearance was right.

Summary judgement really helps US Soccer out of a tough spot.

 
NewlyRetired said:
So the US Women lost the majority of their suit against US Soccer.  It looks like the item many pointed out as contradictory went against them.  The courts found that they were actually paid MORE than the men, as we have been saying all along, due to the CBA the players signed where US Soccer had to pay the club salaries.

Obviously this summary judgement will be appealed.  I am unfamiliar with how likely a summary judgement can be over turned on appeal.
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I posted in the women’s thread but legally the result is proper.

it was a PR hit for US soccer, and the women should do better next time in collective bargaining - unless they push their luck. 

 
Sinn Fein said:
I posted in the women’s thread but legally the result is proper.

it was a PR hit for US soccer, and the women should do better next time in collective bargaining - unless they push their luck. 
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I really think the judge throwing out all the major claims helps USS on the PR front.

And I doubt either the men or the women do as well in the next go 'round.  USS has to be stretched by current events.  No TV revenue, no matches, no nothing.

 
Dinsy Ejotuz said:
I really think the judge throwing out all the major claims helps USS on the PR front.

And I doubt either the men or the women do as well in the next go 'round.  USS has to be stretched by current events.  No TV revenue, no matches, no nothing.
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Next will be forward looking - so I would not expect too much in term of concessions by us soccer.  There will still be PR pressure as “legal” <> “acceptable” in the eyes of the media. 
 

Now it might be that the women negotiate away their club salaries - and, short-term it would be better as many could go to Europe for bigger club salaries (assuming growth continues there). But it would kill the US league, and by extension a lot of funding for women in general. 

 
Goff has a nice summary in his write up:

U.S. Soccer requested summary judgment, asking the judge, in effect, to toss out the women’s pay claims as groundless.

That’s essentially what Klausner did, as it relates to the issue of pay-inequity, ruling that the women’s legal argument was “insufficient to create a genuine issue of material fact for trial.” In doing so, he handed the internationally dominant and wildly popular U.S. women’s team, which has won four Olympic gold medals and four World Cups, a stunning defeat.

From the start, the dispute was complicated by the fact that the U.S. men’s and women’s teams have starkly different compensation systems, which makes apples-to-apples comparisons impossible.

The men’s team is paid for individual performances in a pay-for-play model, while the women opted for a pay structure that includes more security in the form of negotiated year-round salaries, maternity and child-care benefits, and severance pay when they are no longer on the team.

While direct comparisons are difficult, the women’s lawsuit provided snapshots to illustrate ways in which the women earn considerably less than the men, who have never won an Olympic medal or advanced past the quarterfinals at the World Cup since finishing third in 1930.

But in ruling in favor of U.S. Soccer on the pay issue, the judge noted that the women’s national team had rejected an offer to be paid under the same pay-for-play model as the men but opted instead for more guaranteed money.

The court found the women’s team could not, then, retroactively claim that its CBA was inferior to that of the men’s. It also noted the difficulty of quantifying the added job security that the women’s contracts guaranteed, unlike the men’s.
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Dinsy Ejotuz said:
Summary judgement really helps US Soccer out of a tough spot.
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It made me wonder, had the women won the full $66m claim, it could very well have been the end of US Soccer.

I still am confused on what chances there are in appeal.

And if I understand things right they still may have to go to court for a small part of the suit, but even if the women win that, it won't closed the doors.

I have to assume that all future CBA's should be fairly simple.

Give the women the exact same $'s as the men for all US Soccer related activities.  Give the women the exact same % bonus for any FIFA related activities.  Let the women sue FIFA if they want more.

And stay the #### out of the club game.

 
Dinsy Ejotuz said:
Goff has a nice summary in his write up:
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It is good to see that this is nearly word for word what many of us this thread harped on.  It made absolutely no sense and the people who wanted the women to win were either unknowingly or willfully ignorant of US Soccer paying the club salaries for the women. 

I swear 99% of the media stories continued to leave that out which did not help the knowledge level either.

 
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NewlyRetired said:
It is good to see that this is nearly word for word what many of in this thread never understood about the suit.  It made absolutely no sense and the people who wanted the women to win were either unknowingly or willfully ignorant of US Soccer paying the club salaries for the women. 

I swear 99% of the media stories continued to leave that out which did not help the knowledge level either.
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I like the women's team and consider myself a feminist on most issues.  No time or patience for troll/incel crap.

But it's very disappointing the major media outlets didn't get this story right, or even cover it straight, until now.  Despite the fact that I'm basically on "their side" the USWNT used some really ####ty, duplicitous arguments and no one of note (that I could find) called them on it.

 
It was pretty easy to spot the nonsense articles if you knew what to look for.

The moment any article referenced the two teams relative win/loss performance, you knew it was garbage. That issue was completely irrelevant to the court case.

 
Dinsy Ejotuz said:
I like the women's team and consider myself a feminist on most issues.  No time or patience for troll/incel crap.

But it's very disappointing the major media outlets didn't get this story right, or even cover it straight, until now.  Despite the fact that I'm basically on "their side" the USWNT used some really ####ty, duplicitous arguments and no one of note (that I could find) called them on it.
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Both sides acted poorly.

The minute the women said the club salaries should not count as compensation (the very salaries they negotiated for) was the minute they lost me.

 
I still don't understand the actions of US Soccer in the PR game.  They should have been posting this information every chance they got.

=========================

Klausner effectively concluded that differences in payment structure were the result of choices made by the women's players and their union -- including guaranteed annual salaries of at least $100,000 for 20 contracted players -- and not discrimination by the federation.

The 32-page ruling went through a detailed history of the collective bargaining process that led to the current CBA between U.S. Soccer and the USWNTPA that was signed in 2017. Klausner noted that representatives of the players rejected a pay-for-play model identical to the men early in those negotiations in 2016. In later negotiations, the players offered a counterproposal with lesser bonuses than the federation's offer in exchange for more contracted players and higher base salaries -- benefits not part of the CBA between U.S. Soccer and the men's union.

 
Dinsy Ejotuz said:
I like the women's team and consider myself a feminist on most issues.  No time or patience for troll/incel crap.

But it's very disappointing the major media outlets didn't get this story right, or even cover it straight, until now.  Despite the fact that I'm basically on "their side" the USWNT used some really ####ty, duplicitous arguments and no one of note (that I could find) called them on it.
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The media is uniformly terrible at covering legal issues. With that said, there were some outlets that at least raised the collective bargaining issue as a significant hurdle. McCann for SI. Some pointed to some blog posts from Professor Bank. 
 

 
The court’s opinion is the best summary of the history of the negotiations and explanation of the issues I’ve seen, and I’ve read a ton on this. I would hope any journalist who intends to write about this would read the opinion, then read it again, before putting pen to paper.  It’s frustrating to me to know how unlikely that is. 
 

 
Here is an excellent break down of the ruling and the difficult path the women face on appeal

https://twitter.com/ProfBank/status/1256630684577181698

I do agree with his comment that US Soccer, for PR sake should just settle and put this to bed, even if they would likely win.  Now we have freaking Joe Biden writing moronic tweets that if US Soccer does not give equal pay, he will pull all World Cup 2026 funding if he becomes president.  The level of ignorance on this case even after it has been clearly laid out is stunning.

 
CletiusMaximus said:
The court’s opinion is the best summary of the history of the negotiations and explanation of the issues I’ve seen, and I’ve read a ton on this. I would hope any journalist who intends to write about this would read the opinion, then read it again, before putting pen to paper.  It’s frustrating to me to know how unlikely that is. 
 
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As a casual fan that basically only watches soccer during the World Cup, I was shocked to read the headline of the article I read before clicking on it and reading. I fully expected a ridiculous opinion from a Trump appointed judge or something because the reporting I’d seen previously was apparently pretty bad.

After reading about the actual opinion and why it was made, both the Women’s team and the media that had reported on this should be ashamed of themselves. To reject the same deal given to the men because they wanted more guaranteed money for more people only to turn around and allege discrimination because they didn’t get paid under the deal they rejected is shameful. 

I’ve really enjoyed the women’s team play during the World Cup, but I’ve lost a lot of respect for them now. 

 
GroveDiesel said:
As a casual fan that basically only watches soccer during the World Cup, I was shocked to read the headline of the article I read before clicking on it and reading.
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Your last two words in this sentence already put you ahead of 90% of the people commenting on the ruling sadly.  It is unbelievable how many people are still commenting on this all over the internet and don't have a single clue as to why the judgement was made.

And unlike before, we can't blame the media this time.  Almost every legit article written had clearly laid out that the women rejected an identical pay model to get their current CBA.

 
Well, no one can blame him for thinking small :)

=======

USMNT Only

“There are still center-backs here who are world class. I’m not taking anything away from them, but I think it’s time for me to start getting my shot at showing people what I have and hopefully one day becoming a Bayern legend.” - Chris Richards, Bayern Munich

 
NewlyRetired said:
Well, no one can blame him for thinking small :)

=======

USMNT Only

“There are still center-backs here who are world class. I’m not taking anything away from them, but I think it’s time for me to start getting my shot at showing people what I have and hopefully one day becoming a Bayern legend.” - Chris Richards, Bayern Munich
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And I guess he may get a chance in the next couple weeks if the bundesliga actually reopens as has been posted.

 
Derek Rae ✔ @RaeComm

One for US and BVB followers. Kicker reporting Gio Reyna & Dortmund agreed on an extension until 2023. Can’t officially confirm it until 13 November this year when he turns 18.

 
NewlyRetired said:
Derek Rae ✔ @RaeComm

One for US and BVB followers. Kicker reporting Gio Reyna & Dortmund agreed on an extension until 2023. Can’t officially confirm it until 13 November this year when he turns 18.
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I don't quite understand why they have to wait until he is 18 to announce this as he clearly already meets what ever standards the Bundesliga has to play at the pro level before 18.

 
Yanks Yanks, every where Yanks!

==================

Janusz Michallik

Saturday May 16:

Dortmund - Schalke

Leipzig - Freiburg

Hoffenheim - Hertha

Fortuna - Paderborn

Augsburg - Wolfsburg

Eintracht - Gladbach

Sunday May 17:

Köln - Mainz

Union - Bayern

Monday May 18:

Werder - Bayer

 
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NewlyRetired said:
Yanks Yanks, every where Yanks!

==================

Janusz Michallik

Saturday May 16:

Dortmund - Schalke

Leipzig - Freiburg

Hoffenheim - Hertha

Fortuna - Paderborn

Augsburg - Wolfsburg

Eintracht - Gladbach

Sunday May 17:

Köln - Mainz

Union - Bayern

Monday May 18:

Werder - Bayer
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Which network is showing bundesliga games?

 
I feel like the new 5 player sub rule should help both Gio and Uly.  While offensive players do get subbed first typically, this should help them get chances in those times where a midfielder or defender has to be subbed out early for injury or having a nightmare.

 
Maybe it is just the lack of any real news during the lock down, but I have been seeing more whispers, hints, clues etc, that Efra may be rethinking his decision to stay with Mexico.

This is relatively meaningless, but yesterday Uly's dad posted a great picture of a very young Alex Mendex, Uly and Efra all standing together arms over each others shoulders like brothers.

 
NewlyRetired said:
I feel like the new 5 player sub rule should help both Gio and Uly.  While offensive players do get subbed first typically, this should help them get chances in those times where a midfielder or defender has to be subbed out early for injury or having a nightmare.
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Have any of the federations actually adopted the rule?

 
I don't understand law that well but this tweet explaining the WNT appeal seems to go directly against what the summary judgement said in that the women turned down identical pay to have their own deal that included the club pay.

============

Graham Hays

@grahamhays

New WNT filings. Players seek to appeal EPA claims to 9th Circuit: "The argument that women gave up a right to equal pay by accepting the best CBA possible in response to USSF refusal to put equal pay on the table is not legit reason for continuing to discriminate against them."

 
Unless they can prove that they're getting "unfair pay" even after counting the guaranteed salaries and other stuff they negotiated en lieu of the men's better bonus structure, I don't see how they have a prayer.

And if they COULD do that, I can't imagine they'd be arguing that those things "shouldn't count". (or pretending that they dont exist)

 
Honestly, the fact that they're continuing to fight this despite making more than the men since the last CBA and rejecting the exact same language as the men's CBA when they signed it is ridiculous.

They were able to dupe the media and the public when no facts were out there, but I think the public opinion tide will turn quick if they continue this fight.  

 
The Z Machine said:
encaitar said:
I think the public opinion tide will turn quick if they continue this fight
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I think you're wrong here. Far easier to win an early PR battle and set the narrative than to convince the public that their initial views were wrong.
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Agree. 

My sentiment is that people are generally lazy, selfish, thoughtless and stupid. But I'd add intractable as well. Once that line is drawn, there's no going back for most.

 
95 percent of the public will never change their stance on this issue. 

Those that that are in support of the women think US soccer is the bad guy just trying to screw them over and no amount of logic or math will change their mind. 

 
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