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The War in Gaza (1 Viewer)

timschochet

Footballguy
Benjamin Netanyahu rejects Obama's call for a ceasefire:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tomrogan/100279294/israel-gaza-conflict-netanyahus-strategy/

Israeli military operations against Hamas are expanding. The IDF has now attacked hundreds of rocket launch platforms and many Hamas command facilities. Thousands of IDF infantry reserves have been mobilised. Special Forces are raiding targets in Gaza. A major ground offensive is being contemplated.

Benjamin Netanyahu's rhetoric is unyielding.

Last week, the Prime Minister's spokesman told the BBC that Israel would seek to "dismantle Hamas's military machine. We don't want to have some sort of band-aid solution whereby we have a quick fix, a ceasefire and then we only have rockets on Israeli citizens next week."

That's a major change from the opening days of the conflict when Netanyahu called for de-escalation. Today, President Obama's call for a ceasefire is going unanswered.

Why is Israel escalating?

A number of reasons.

First off, Israeli domestic politics. As attacks from Gaza continued, Israeli security assessments changed. Israeli retaliation was always likely, but when Israel's hard-line foreign minister withdrew his support for Netanyahu's government, Hamas didn't notice. Instead, the group fired more advanced rockets deep into Israel. Those rockets were an unambiguous challenge to Netanyahu's credibility and pressured him to respond aggressively. Had he not done so, Naftali Bennett's Jewish Homeparty might have withdrawn its support. Now, with Hamas desperately attempting suicide operations (watch this Hamas suicide cell infiltrate via sea), Israel has seized the military initiative.

srael's escalation is also a consequence of its military confidence. Encouraged by IDF tactical developments, intransigence from Hamas and Islamic Jihad simplified Netanyahu's decision to take tougher action. The IDF is in a far better position to counter Hamas tactical-manoeuvre advantages on the ground.

Still, this isn't just about Israel's confrontation of Hamas military power. It's also about pressuring Palestinian political blocs. Opposed to the Hamas unity government with Fatah, Israel is using force in an effort to reduce Hamas power. From the Israeli perspective, where Fatah is seen as a potential diplomatic partner, Hamas is viewed as irreconcilable to peace. Thus, Netanyahu wants President Abbas to understand that Hamas will cause him pain if he sides with them. Of course, there is political risk for Israel. As my housemate and counter-terrorism expert, Matthew Tobin, told me, "Further degradation of Hamas's facilities risks accelerating the fragmentation of power in Gaza while doing little to dissuade the splinter groups increasingly behind rocket strikes into Israel."

As I noted in my last piece, Netanyahu's strategy is also focused on the broader Middle East. Concerned by the chaos in Syria and Iraq, and skeptical of the west's nuclear diplomacy with Iran, Netanyahu wants to broadcast his military confidence and competence. Finally, while Netanyahu is aware of the growing international condemnation, now that his operation is underway, he's decided to pursue a strategic victory: he intends to seriously degrade Hamas military-political power and deter future rocket strikes.

 
Netanyahu wants to weaken Hamas and strengthen Fatah, because he believes, correctly, that Fatah is the party with which Israel will negotiate with. But I have a lot of problems with this:

1. Weakening Hamas' military doesn't necessarily strengthen Fatah. In fact, it may actually increase Palestinian support for Hamas. These groups are like a Hydra: every time you strike them, you garner sympathy for them. It's maddening.

2. If Hamas continues to be dangerous, it will only demonstrate the weakness of Israel's military, which will then further empower Hamas and Israel's other enemies.

3. Every time the world's cameras capture another screaming wounded or dead child from Israeli weapons, it makes things worse.

Hamas has never had the power to destroy Israel. What they hope, through their murderous actions, is that the Israeli government will get pissed off enough that they will retaliate indiscriminately, which will make Hamas that much more powerful. It seems to be working.

 
How many Israeli casualties due to said Hamas rocket strikes?
185 to 0 if you are scoring at home.
Oh, sorry....you asked for casualties, not deaths.

1,385 to 0.
So what would you have the Israelis do, BL? Should they just ignore the rockets?
Never said they don't have the right to fire when fired upon.

I was just reading the box score.

When do you think this response will be effective? 5,000 casualties? 10,000? The body count of 185 seems rather modest. How many have to be piled up before they get the message?

 
How many Israeli casualties due to said Hamas rocket strikes?
185 to 0 if you are scoring at home.
Oh, sorry....you asked for casualties, not deaths.

1,385 to 0.
So what would you have the Israelis do, BL? Should they just ignore the rockets?
Never said they don't have the right to fire when fired upon.

I was just reading the box score.

When do you think this response will be effective? 5,000 casualties? 10,000? The body count of 185 seems rather modest. How many have to be piled up before they get the message?
Given the history of the region, I'm not sure the response will ever be effective.

 
At some point an Israeli leader is going to have to say, "Firing back isn't getting us anywhere; it's only making things worse; lets try something else."

I don't know when that point will be.

 
At some point an Israeli leader is going to have to say, "Firing back isn't getting us anywhere; it's only making things worse; lets try something else."

I don't know when that point will be.
Or just keep repeating the same response and hope for a different result, eh?

 
Meh... bigger fish to fry stateside. They're grown folks. Not our business.
No lie, plus life is just too damn short
Of course its our business. Not that we should get directly involved, but it's our business. For one thing Israel is one of our biggest allies. For another, we are probably the biggest source of foreign aid to the Palestinians.

Most importantly for us, the more chaos in the Middle East, the more gas prices rise. We pay a penalty for every bomb that goes off.

 
How many Israeli casualties due to said Hamas rocket strikes?
185 to 0 if you are scoring at home.
Oh, sorry....you asked for casualties, not deaths.

1,385 to 0.
I would consider that a good thing. Why would you want to have equal casualties in a war?

Hamas launches rockets, Israel blows up rocket launchers. Seems simple enough. If Hamas launches from occupied houses that's on them.
Because Israel would never target the population collectively. And if they did, at least they are dropping leaflets to give fair warning.

 
Meh... bigger fish to fry stateside. They're grown folks. Not our business.
No lie, plus life is just too damn short
Of course its our business. Not that we should get directly involved, but it's our business. For one thing Israel is one of our biggest allies. For another, we are probably the biggest source of foreign aid to the Palestinians.

Most importantly for us, the more chaos in the Middle East, the more gas prices rise. We pay a penalty for every bomb that goes off.
We? Higher oil prices is good for the US.

 
Meh... bigger fish to fry stateside. They're grown folks. Not our business.
No lie, plus life is just too damn short
Of course its our business. Not that we should get directly involved, but it's our business. For one thing Israel is one of our biggest allies. For another, we are probably the biggest source of foreign aid to the Palestinians.

Most importantly for us, the more chaos in the Middle East, the more gas prices rise. We pay a penalty for every bomb that goes off.
Read this slowly. Really slowly.

It.is.not.any.of.our.concern.not.one.bit

We shouldnt get involved in regional affairs just because our precious gas prices may go up. Christ dude, how many wars/conflicts do we need to get in before you realize it never and I mean never works out in our favor.

 
Meh... bigger fish to fry stateside. They're grown folks. Not our business.
No lie, plus life is just too damn short
Of course its our business. Not that we should get directly involved, but it's our business. For one thing Israel is one of our biggest allies. For another, we are probably the biggest source of foreign aid to the Palestinians.

Most importantly for us, the more chaos in the Middle East, the more gas prices rise. We pay a penalty for every bomb that goes off.
Read this slowly. Really slowly.

It.is.not.any.of.our.concern.not.one.bit

We shouldnt get involved in regional affairs just because our precious gas prices may go up. Christ dude, how many wars/conflicts do we need to get in before you realize it never and I mean never works out in our favor.
When you say "get involved", are you talking about putting troops on the ground? Because if so, I agree.

But if "getting involved" means using our money, and diplomatic efforts, to help bring peace and stability then I say damn right we need to get involved and stay involved.

 
Meh... bigger fish to fry stateside. They're grown folks. Not our business.
No lie, plus life is just too damn short
Of course its our business. Not that we should get directly involved, but it's our business. For one thing Israel is one of our biggest allies. For another, we are probably the biggest source of foreign aid to the Palestinians.

Most importantly for us, the more chaos in the Middle East, the more gas prices rise. We pay a penalty for every bomb that goes off.
Read this slowly. Really slowly.

It.is.not.any.of.our.concern.not.one.bit

We shouldnt get involved in regional affairs just because our precious gas prices may go up. Christ dude, how many wars/conflicts do we need to get in before you realize it never and I mean never works out in our favor.
When you say "get involved", are you talking about putting troops on the ground? Because if so, I agree.

But if "getting involved" means using our money, and diplomatic efforts, to help bring peace and stability then I say damn right we need to get involved and stay involved.
thats just pissing money away

Tim at one point I thought you were smarter than this but when you start talking about Israel you just seem a little too close to have an objective opinion.

Eff Israel, eff Palestine its not our problem. Both countries (or whatever you want to call them) are animals and neither play nice. IT'S NOT OUR PROBLEM

 
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How many Israeli casualties due to said Hamas rocket strikes?
185 to 0 if you are scoring at home.
Kidnapping/murder/suicide bombing casualties?
:shrug:

804?

None since 2008?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks#Total_number_of_fatalities.2C_by_year

But go ahead and post the full answer.
Kidnapping/murders?
Feel free to educate us. How many?

 
Meh... bigger fish to fry stateside. They're grown folks. Not our business.
No lie, plus life is just too damn short
Of course its our business. Not that we should get directly involved, but it's our business. For one thing Israel is one of our biggest allies. For another, we are probably the biggest source of foreign aid to the Palestinians.

Most importantly for us, the more chaos in the Middle East, the more gas prices rise. We pay a penalty for every bomb that goes off.
Read this slowly. Really slowly.

It.is.not.any.of.our.concern.not.one.bit

We shouldnt get involved in regional affairs just because our precious gas prices may go up. Christ dude, how many wars/conflicts do we need to get in before you realize it never and I mean never works out in our favor.
When you say "get involved", are you talking about putting troops on the ground? Because if so, I agree.

But if "getting involved" means using our money, and diplomatic efforts, to help bring peace and stability then I say damn right we need to get involved and stay involved.
thats just pissing money away

Tim at one point I thought you were smarter than this but when you start talking about Israel you just seem a little too close to have an objective opinion.

Eff Israel, eff Palestine its not our problem. Both countries (or whatever you want to call them) are animals and neither play nice. IT'S NOT OUR PROBLEM
Hopefully most people don't share your opinion. If they do, we're ####ed.

 
How many Israeli casualties due to said Hamas rocket strikes?
185 to 0 if you are scoring at home.
Kidnapping/murder/suicide bombing casualties?
:shrug:

804?

None since 2008?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks#Total_number_of_fatalities.2C_by_year

But go ahead and post the full answer.
Kidnapping/murders?
Feel free to educate us. How many?
Believe it or not- I'm not jousting with you. I'm just busy at work and lazily looking for info...

 
Meh... bigger fish to fry stateside. They're grown folks. Not our business.
No lie, plus life is just too damn short
Of course its our business. Not that we should get directly involved, but it's our business. For one thing Israel is one of our biggest allies. For another, we are probably the biggest source of foreign aid to the Palestinians.

Most importantly for us, the more chaos in the Middle East, the more gas prices rise. We pay a penalty for every bomb that goes off.
Cool. Cut aid. Quit screwing with Israel. Let nature take its course.

 
How many Israeli casualties due to said Hamas rocket strikes?
None.

But try to imagine our national reaction if Mexico started lobbying missiles into this country, and their leaders shouted "Death to America!" What would we do?
Are we occupying Mexico?
That's a matter of debate. Take a poll of Mexicans; you might be surprised by the answer (or not.)
Way to spin out of the corner you were going to get stuck in.

 
Meh... bigger fish to fry stateside. They're grown folks. Not our business.
No lie, plus life is just too damn short
Of course its our business. Not that we should get directly involved, but it's our business. For one thing Israel is one of our biggest allies. For another, we are probably the biggest source of foreign aid to the Palestinians.

Most importantly for us, the more chaos in the Middle East, the more gas prices rise. We pay a penalty for every bomb that goes off.
Read this slowly. Really slowly.

It.is.not.any.of.our.concern.not.one.bit

We shouldnt get involved in regional affairs just because our precious gas prices may go up. Christ dude, how many wars/conflicts do we need to get in before you realize it never and I mean never works out in our favor.
When you say "get involved", are you talking about putting troops on the ground? Because if so, I agree.

But if "getting involved" means using our money, and diplomatic efforts, to help bring peace and stability then I say damn right we need to get involved and stay involved.
thats just pissing money away

Tim at one point I thought you were smarter than this but when you start talking about Israel you just seem a little too close to have an objective opinion.

Eff Israel, eff Palestine its not our problem. Both countries (or whatever you want to call them) are animals and neither play nice. IT'S NOT OUR PROBLEM
Hopefully most people don't share your opinion. If they do, we're ####ed.
We as in Israel? Probably. Who cares.

 
How many Israeli casualties due to said Hamas rocket strikes?
None.

But try to imagine our national reaction if Mexico started lobbying missiles into this country, and their leaders shouted "Death to America!" What would we do?
Are we occupying Mexico?
That's a matter of debate. Take a poll of Mexicans; you might be surprised by the answer (or not.)
Way to spin out of the corner you were going to get stuck in.
Im not stuck in any corners. If I could have once defended Israeli's occupation policies, I can't any longer.

 
well,

Israel is the main ally in the region, but if you do not want to go there, Israel is a center for tech innovation and democracy.

In any case, this is not about equal partners, this is about one group wanting to destroy the other and not even willing to recognize Israel's right to exist. When the palestinians murder 3 innocent jews, the muslim world rejoices. When I read that some jews lit a palestinian boy on fire, I was sickened that those that share my religion would do such a thing. Therein lies the problem. I have no doubt that those who are not jews or muslims will prefer to not take a side or worse, consider both to be equal, but the truth is that if everyone in Hamas and Fatah threw their guns into the ocean, there would be peace. If the Israeli's threw their guns into the ocean they would be killed.

 
well,

Israel is the main ally in the region, but if you do not want to go there, Israel is a center for tech innovation and democracy.

In any case, this is not about equal partners, this is about one group wanting to destroy the other and not even willing to recognize Israel's right to exist. When the palestinians murder 3 innocent jews, the muslim world rejoices. When I read that some jews lit a palestinian boy on fire, I was sickened that those that share my religion would do such a thing. Therein lies the problem. I have no doubt that those who are not jews or muslims will prefer to not take a side or worse, consider both to be equal, but the truth is that if everyone in Hamas and Fatah threw their guns into the ocean, there would be peace. If the Israeli's threw their guns into the ocean they would be killed.
lolololololololololololol

 
How many Israeli casualties due to said Hamas rocket strikes?
185 to 0 if you are scoring at home.
Kidnapping/murder/suicide bombing casualties?
:shrug:

804?

None since 2008?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks#Total_number_of_fatalities.2C_by_year

But go ahead and post the full answer.
Kidnapping/murders?
Feel free to educate us. How many?
Believe it or not- I'm not jousting with you. I'm just busy at work and lazily looking for info...
Cool. I honestly don't know. Since Daniel Pearl - and that atrocity is good for 10,000 retributions - the Google tells me 4. Three Yesheva students last month, and an Israeli soldier in 2006. Ther former is unconfirmed, the latter was released five years later.Four and zero over the last 12 years? Sorry, on my phone walking home from work. INF says it has foiled 64 kidnapping attempts during that period.

I'm in favor of Israel defending itself. But this is pretty lopsided. Worse, it's ineffective.

 
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At some point an Israeli leader is going to have to say, "Firing back isn't getting us anywhere; it's only making things worse; lets try something else."

I don't know when that point will be.
I haven't seen you post another viable solution.
I don't have one- yet. I wish I did. I only know that THIS solution falls under what Einstein calls the definition of insanity.
1. Your logic is incorrect here. Sometimes there is no "good" solution, only a "least bad" solution. Continuing to implement the "least bad" solution is not wrong unless there actually is a better solution.

2. The "definition of insanity" requires that one expect different results. Who is expecting different results? Perhaps the aim is simply to prevent the situation from getting worse.

 
I figure if we drop enough weapons on both sides of the fence, the situation should resolve itself :shrug:

 
At some point an Israeli leader is going to have to say, "Firing back isn't getting us anywhere; it's only making things worse; lets try something else."

I don't know when that point will be.
I haven't seen you post another viable solution.
I don't have one- yet. I wish I did. I only know that THIS solution falls under what Einstein calls the definition of insanity.
1. Your logic is incorrect here. Sometimes there is no "good" solution, only a "least bad" solution. Continuing to implement the "least bad" solution is not wrong unless there actually is a better solution.

2. The "definition of insanity" requires that one expect different results. Who is expecting different results? Perhaps the aim is simply to prevent the situation from getting worse.
That's if you believe it's a solution at all. Do you believe that bombing Gaza is a solution?

 
At some point an Israeli leader is going to have to say, "Firing back isn't getting us anywhere; it's only making things worse; lets try something else."

I don't know when that point will be.
I haven't seen you post another viable solution.
I don't have one- yet. I wish I did. I only know that THIS solution falls under what Einstein calls the definition of insanity.
1. Your logic is incorrect here. Sometimes there is no "good" solution, only a "least bad" solution. Continuing to implement the "least bad" solution is not wrong unless there actually is a better solution.

2. The "definition of insanity" requires that one expect different results. Who is expecting different results? Perhaps the aim is simply to prevent the situation from getting worse.
That's if you believe it's a solution at all. Do you believe that bombing Gaza is a solution?
Depends on the objective.

 

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