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Malaysian plane shot down in Ukraine. (2 Viewers)

Doug B said:
TheIronSheik said:
Just seems like the world is so worried about getting drawn into conflicts now that they are willing to take blows from anyone. I'll leave it at that.
Click to expand...
This is easy to understand -- there's pretty much nothing between economic/diplomatic sanctions and all-out war.

People may want something to be done ... be resolute that someone must pay. But realistically, nothing should be done.

Whatever thing it is that would be worth going to full-on war on Russian soil ... that thing is probably a lot more extrame than most realize.
Click to expand...
There are a ton of options between sanctions and all out war on Russia.

What's the downside of supplying weapons and equipment to Ukraine at this poin?

 
GroveDiesel said:
Doug B said:
TheIronSheik said:
Just seems like the world is so worried about getting drawn into conflicts now that they are willing to take blows from anyone. I'll leave it at that.
Click to expand...
This is easy to understand -- there's pretty much nothing between economic/diplomatic sanctions and all-out war.

People may want something to be done ... be resolute that someone must pay. But realistically, nothing should be done.

Whatever thing it is that would be worth going to full-on war on Russian soil ... that thing is probably a lot more extrame than most realize.
Click to expand...
There are a ton of options between sanctions and all out war on Russia.

What's the downside of supplying weapons and equipment to Ukraine at this poin?
Click to expand...
Ukraine wins? Are you sure thats a good thing? Or, do you just assume that Russia is our enemy, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend?

 
As far as Putin asking that the Ukraine negotiates with the separatists, not sure how that's supposed to work. The separatists ate going to say, "We want eastern Ukraine to be our own country", and the Ukraine goverrnent will say, "No."

Now what?

 
GroveDiesel said:
Sinn Fein said:
GroveDiesel said:
Sinn Fein said:
TheIronSheik said:
It's kind of sad that we have so many people OK with doing nothing when another country kills our people.
Click to expand...
What do you want to do here Sheik?

Under the most plausible story out there now - this was a deliberate shot by a pro-russian separatist militia, who thought they were engaged in combat with Ukrainian forces - turns out they shot the wrong plane. As far as I know, there is no evidence to suggest anyone was deliberately targeting passenger jets.

It is no different than the US shooting down the Iranian airliner - and in many ways easier to understand given the limitations of the technology these militiamen are likely using.

It is no different than Israel bombing civilians, while trying to hit military targets - what are we going to do about that?

End of the day, this was a tragedy. Civilians were killed in a combat zone. Tomorrow more civilians will be killed in a combat zone. What makes these civilians any different?
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It's not even close to being the same. Hamas fighters dress in civilian clothing, launch strikes from civilian soft spots like near schools, hospitals, mosques, etc and Israel does their best to try to limit civilian casualties.

Ukrainian forces aren't disguising themselves as civilians. Military planes typically fly at a third of the altitude of civilian passenger jets. These terrorists were, at a minimum, completely reckless with technology they were given by the Russians. If they didn't know how to properly identify and target military aircraft versus civilian aircraft, then that's on the Russians for not training them well.
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:shrug: All a matter of perspective - I suppose you don't view the civilians killed in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to be tragedies - but too each his own.

In this case, we aren't going to war with Russia over this, so it does not matter if they did not train them well enough. The US really has no role to play here, other than to condemn the shooting.
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They're absolutely tragedies. But the blame goes to Hamas for putting the civilians in danger with their tactics, not Israel.
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Israel pulls the trigger - they share the blame. They can chalk it up as the cost of eliminating Hamas rocket launchers, but they can't be absolved of the decision to kill civilians - they are taking the shots knowing civilians will be killed, and are willing to take that outcome. For some - its worth cheering. For others, its a tragedy.

 
Sinn Fein said:
GroveDiesel said:
Doug B said:
TheIronSheik said:
Just seems like the world is so worried about getting drawn into conflicts now that they are willing to take blows from anyone. I'll leave it at that.
Click to expand...
This is easy to understand -- there's pretty much nothing between economic/diplomatic sanctions and all-out war.

People may want something to be done ... be resolute that someone must pay. But realistically, nothing should be done.

Whatever thing it is that would be worth going to full-on war on Russian soil ... that thing is probably a lot more extrame than most realize.
Click to expand...
There are a ton of options between sanctions and all out war on Russia.

What's the downside of supplying weapons and equipment to Ukraine at this poin?
Click to expand...
Ukraine wins? Are you sure thats a good thing? Or, do you just assume that Russia is our enemy, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend?
Click to expand...
When did Ukraine become bad? :confused:

 
Sinn Fein said:
GroveDiesel said:
Doug B said:
TheIronSheik said:
Just seems like the world is so worried about getting drawn into conflicts now that they are willing to take blows from anyone. I'll leave it at that.
Click to expand...
This is easy to understand -- there's pretty much nothing between economic/diplomatic sanctions and all-out war.

People may want something to be done ... be resolute that someone must pay. But realistically, nothing should be done.

Whatever thing it is that would be worth going to full-on war on Russian soil ... that thing is probably a lot more extrame than most realize.
Click to expand...
There are a ton of options between sanctions and all out war on Russia.What's the downside of supplying weapons and equipment to Ukraine at this poin?
Click to expand...
Ukraine wins? Are you sure thats a good thing? Or, do you just assume that Russia is our enemy, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend?
Click to expand...
I'm pretty ok with Ukraine winning. What's so bad about them winning?

 
Ukrainian government apparently released a photo of one of infants that passed, telling the world it's death is on Putin's hands. I can handle the other gory pictures circulating but that is one I do NOT want to see ever.

 
TheIronSheik said:
Sinn Fein said:
GroveDiesel said:
Doug B said:
TheIronSheik said:
Just seems like the world is so worried about getting drawn into conflicts now that they are willing to take blows from anyone. I'll leave it at that.
Click to expand...
This is easy to understand -- there's pretty much nothing between economic/diplomatic sanctions and all-out war.

People may want something to be done ... be resolute that someone must pay. But realistically, nothing should be done.

Whatever thing it is that would be worth going to full-on war on Russian soil ... that thing is probably a lot more extrame than most realize.
Click to expand...
There are a ton of options between sanctions and all out war on Russia.

What's the downside of supplying weapons and equipment to Ukraine at this poin?
Click to expand...
Ukraine wins? Are you sure thats a good thing? Or, do you just assume that Russia is our enemy, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend?
Click to expand...
When did Ukraine become bad? :confused:
Click to expand...
I think his point is neither side may be the "good guys"

and if ukraine wins and starts doing bad stuff we look dumb

like in syria where the appears to be bad guys and worse guys and you don;t want to be allies with either

i am not sure that is the case in ukraine, i do not know

 
tjnc09 said:
Ukrainian government apparently released a photo of one of infants that passed, telling the world it's death is on Putin's hands. I can handle the other gory pictures circulating but that is one I do NOT want to see ever.
Click to expand...
see when they decry russia's propoganda war and then do this, it kind of feels icky

 
Sinn Fein said:
GroveDiesel said:
Sinn Fein said:
GroveDiesel said:
Sinn Fein said:
TheIronSheik said:
It's kind of sad that we have so many people OK with doing nothing when another country kills our people.
Click to expand...
What do you want to do here Sheik?

Under the most plausible story out there now - this was a deliberate shot by a pro-russian separatist militia, who thought they were engaged in combat with Ukrainian forces - turns out they shot the wrong plane. As far as I know, there is no evidence to suggest anyone was deliberately targeting passenger jets.

It is no different than the US shooting down the Iranian airliner - and in many ways easier to understand given the limitations of the technology these militiamen are likely using.

It is no different than Israel bombing civilians, while trying to hit military targets - what are we going to do about that?

End of the day, this was a tragedy. Civilians were killed in a combat zone. Tomorrow more civilians will be killed in a combat zone. What makes these civilians any different?
Click to expand...
It's not even close to being the same. Hamas fighters dress in civilian clothing, launch strikes from civilian soft spots like near schools, hospitals, mosques, etc and Israel does their best to try to limit civilian casualties.

Ukrainian forces aren't disguising themselves as civilians. Military planes typically fly at a third of the altitude of civilian passenger jets. These terrorists were, at a minimum, completely reckless with technology they were given by the Russians. If they didn't know how to properly identify and target military aircraft versus civilian aircraft, then that's on the Russians for not training them well.
Click to expand...
:shrug: All a matter of perspective - I suppose you don't view the civilians killed in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to be tragedies - but too each his own.In this case, we aren't going to war with Russia over this, so it does not matter if they did not train them well enough. The US really has no role to play here, other than to condemn the shooting.
Click to expand...
They're absolutely tragedies. But the blame goes to Hamas for putting the civilians in danger with their tactics, not Israel.
Click to expand...
Israel pulls the trigger - they share the blame. They can chalk it up as the cost of eliminating Hamas rocket launchers, but they can't be absolved of the decision to kill civilians - they are taking the shots knowing civilians will be killed, and are willing to take that outcome. For some - its worth cheering. For others, its a tragedy.
Click to expand...
I don't blame Israel one bit. They are allowed to protect themselves. It's not their fault that Hamas purposefully hides amongst civilians to try to win the PR battle. Hamas actually wants civilians to die to make Israel look bad. Hamas violates international laws of war. Israel does not.

 
B-Deep said:
TheIronSheik said:
Sinn Fein said:
GroveDiesel said:
Doug B said:
TheIronSheik said:
Just seems like the world is so worried about getting drawn into conflicts now that they are willing to take blows from anyone. I'll leave it at that.
Click to expand...
This is easy to understand -- there's pretty much nothing between economic/diplomatic sanctions and all-out war.

People may want something to be done ... be resolute that someone must pay. But realistically, nothing should be done.

Whatever thing it is that would be worth going to full-on war on Russian soil ... that thing is probably a lot more extrame than most realize.
Click to expand...
There are a ton of options between sanctions and all out war on Russia.

What's the downside of supplying weapons and equipment to Ukraine at this poin?
Click to expand...
Ukraine wins? Are you sure thats a good thing? Or, do you just assume that Russia is our enemy, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend?
Click to expand...
When did Ukraine become bad? :confused:
Click to expand...
I think his point is neither side may be the "good guys"

and if ukraine wins and starts doing bad stuff we look dumb

like in syria where the appears to be bad guys and worse guys and you don;t want to be allies with either

i am not sure that is the case in ukraine, i do not know
Click to expand...
I understand his point. But when has Ukraine been bad? That's like saying in WWII, "Not sure if we should help the British. What if they turn bad. Then that's on us."

 
timschochet said:
moleculo, even if it is a civilian, the problem is that during any such trial Russia would have to acknowledge its complicity in arming these separatists. The whole world KNOWS Russia is behind the separatists but they have denied it, and to admit it now will cause them to lose great face. Therefore I'm betting that there's going to be a cover up. We should stay out of it.
Click to expand...
Just a note here because I think people are missing something - Russia military intelligence and special forces are actively there. If they ordered the shootdown or participated in it that's a game changer. There's already evidence a Russian GRU commander was involved, he posted the downing to his own website.

 
Tom Servo said:
urbanhack said:
BeaverCleaver said:
timschochet said:
I think we to stop wasting time and invade Russia. Poland is our ally and can serve as the launching pad. My original plan is this: 3 separate armed pincers: one north to St. Petersburg, one central to Moscow, and one south to the Caucuses. This should catch the Russians completely by surprise.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Didn't Hitler try this? Or does this belong in the Lies about Hitler thread?
Click to expand...
Tim is frustrated and worried about the consequences of all this (so are others), they abhor international confrontation and discord (understandable), so they pose an extreme example as though war were the only option available. Obviously not.

 
TheIronSheik said:
B-Deep said:
TheIronSheik said:
Sinn Fein said:
GroveDiesel said:
Doug B said:
TheIronSheik said:
Just seems like the world is so worried about getting drawn into conflicts now that they are willing to take blows from anyone. I'll leave it at that.
Click to expand...
This is easy to understand -- there's pretty much nothing between economic/diplomatic sanctions and all-out war.

People may want something to be done ... be resolute that someone must pay. But realistically, nothing should be done.

Whatever thing it is that would be worth going to full-on war on Russian soil ... that thing is probably a lot more extrame than most realize.
Click to expand...
There are a ton of options between sanctions and all out war on Russia.

What's the downside of supplying weapons and equipment to Ukraine at this poin?
Click to expand...
Ukraine wins? Are you sure thats a good thing? Or, do you just assume that Russia is our enemy, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend?
Click to expand...
When did Ukraine become bad? :confused:
Click to expand...
I think his point is neither side may be the "good guys"and if ukraine wins and starts doing bad stuff we look dumb

like in syria where the appears to be bad guys and worse guys and you don;t want to be allies with either

i am not sure that is the case in ukraine, i do not know
Click to expand...
I understand his point. But when has Ukraine been bad? That's like saying in WWII, "Not sure if we should help the British. What if they turn bad. Then that's on us."
Click to expand...
Our involvement in WWII was about a wee bit more than one American passenger killed.

 
Politician Spock said:
TheIronSheik said:
B-Deep said:
TheIronSheik said:
Sinn Fein said:
GroveDiesel said:
Doug B said:
TheIronSheik said:
Just seems like the world is so worried about getting drawn into conflicts now that they are willing to take blows from anyone. I'll leave it at that.
Click to expand...
This is easy to understand -- there's pretty much nothing between economic/diplomatic sanctions and all-out war.

People may want something to be done ... be resolute that someone must pay. But realistically, nothing should be done.

Whatever thing it is that would be worth going to full-on war on Russian soil ... that thing is probably a lot more extrame than most realize.
Click to expand...
There are a ton of options between sanctions and all out war on Russia.

What's the downside of supplying weapons and equipment to Ukraine at this poin?
Click to expand...
Ukraine wins? Are you sure thats a good thing? Or, do you just assume that Russia is our enemy, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend?
Click to expand...
When did Ukraine become bad? :confused:
Click to expand...
I think his point is neither side may be the "good guys"and if ukraine wins and starts doing bad stuff we look dumb

like in syria where the appears to be bad guys and worse guys and you don;t want to be allies with either

i am not sure that is the case in ukraine, i do not know
Click to expand...
I understand his point. But when has Ukraine been bad? That's like saying in WWII, "Not sure if we should help the British. What if they turn bad. Then that's on us."
Click to expand...
Our involvement in WWII was about a wee bit more than one American passenger killed.
Click to expand...
Not my point. And exactly why I hate arguing in these threads.

 
TheIronSheik said:
Politician Spock said:
TheIronSheik said:
B-Deep said:
TheIronSheik said:
Sinn Fein said:
GroveDiesel said:
Doug B said:
TheIronSheik said:
Just seems like the world is so worried about getting drawn into conflicts now that they are willing to take blows from anyone. I'll leave it at that.
Click to expand...
This is easy to understand -- there's pretty much nothing between economic/diplomatic sanctions and all-out war.

People may want something to be done ... be resolute that someone must pay. But realistically, nothing should be done.

Whatever thing it is that would be worth going to full-on war on Russian soil ... that thing is probably a lot more extrame than most realize.
Click to expand...
There are a ton of options between sanctions and all out war on Russia.

What's the downside of supplying weapons and equipment to Ukraine at this poin?
Click to expand...
Ukraine wins? Are you sure thats a good thing? Or, do you just assume that Russia is our enemy, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend?
Click to expand...
When did Ukraine become bad? :confused:
Click to expand...
I think his point is neither side may be the "good guys"and if ukraine wins and starts doing bad stuff we look dumb

like in syria where the appears to be bad guys and worse guys and you don;t want to be allies with either

i am not sure that is the case in ukraine, i do not know
Click to expand...
I understand his point. But when has Ukraine been bad? That's like saying in WWII, "Not sure if we should help the British. What if they turn bad. Then that's on us."
Click to expand...
Our involvement in WWII was about a wee bit more than one American passenger killed.
Click to expand...
Not my point. And exactly why I hate arguing in these threads.
Click to expand...
Well you keep asking us what should we do in response and aren't happy with "nothing". I think the burden is on you to justify what we should do, knowing that the Federal government has lost a ton of faith within the populace doing what it has done for decades and accomplished nothing.

 
TheIronSheik said:
B-Deep said:
TheIronSheik said:
Sinn Fein said:
GroveDiesel said:
Doug B said:
TheIronSheik said:
Just seems like the world is so worried about getting drawn into conflicts now that they are willing to take blows from anyone. I'll leave it at that.
Click to expand...
This is easy to understand -- there's pretty much nothing between economic/diplomatic sanctions and all-out war.

People may want something to be done ... be resolute that someone must pay. But realistically, nothing should be done.

Whatever thing it is that would be worth going to full-on war on Russian soil ... that thing is probably a lot more extrame than most realize.
Click to expand...
There are a ton of options between sanctions and all out war on Russia.

What's the downside of supplying weapons and equipment to Ukraine at this poin?
Click to expand...
Ukraine wins? Are you sure thats a good thing? Or, do you just assume that Russia is our enemy, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend?
Click to expand...
When did Ukraine become bad? :confused:
Click to expand...
I think his point is neither side may be the "good guys"

and if ukraine wins and starts doing bad stuff we look dumb

like in syria where the appears to be bad guys and worse guys and you don;t want to be allies with either

i am not sure that is the case in ukraine, i do not know
Click to expand...
I understand his point. But when has Ukraine been bad? That's like saying in WWII, "Not sure if we should help the British. What if they turn bad. Then that's on us."
Click to expand...
I am just saying, the current government came to be after a series of violent protests against the former government. The country itself seems to be legitimately divided over its loyalties - and I really doubt anyone there is loyal to the US, except to the extent it wants military protection. I don't know if the current government is good or bad - it been in a civil war since it took power.

I am fairly certain that if we begin to actively support the current Ukrainian government, Russia will up its support to the other side, essentially the former government. Is that an escalation we want to get involved in? What is the benefit to the US here? How far do we escalate it? If we are not prepared to go all the way to defeat Russia here - aren't we just throwing good money after bad?

We cannot go to war whenever there is a tragedy.

 
GroveDiesel said:
Doug B said:
TheIronSheik said:
Just seems like the world is so worried about getting drawn into conflicts now that they are willing to take blows from anyone. I'll leave it at that.
Click to expand...
This is easy to understand -- there's pretty much nothing between economic/diplomatic sanctions and all-out war.

People may want something to be done ... be resolute that someone must pay. But realistically, nothing should be done.

Whatever thing it is that would be worth going to full-on war on Russian soil ... that thing is probably a lot more extrame than most realize.
Click to expand...
There are a ton of options between sanctions and all out war on Russia.

What's the downside of supplying weapons and equipment to Ukraine at this poin?
Click to expand...
Military confrontation with Russia.

No, no, no and no.

 
On my way to an appointment, I turned on my car radio hoping to hear some discussion about this and learn something new.

The only thing I learned was that Obama is to blame for his weak response. The whole discussion is Obama, Putin, Obama, Obama, Obama. Then they switched to discussing Obama's weak response to Israel. It was Obama, Hamas, Obama, Obama, Obama. Finally they spent a few minutes discussing Obama's weak response to the border crisis. It was Obama, illegal immigrants, Obama, Obama, Obama.

 
timschochet said:
On my way to an appointment, I turned on my car radio hoping to hear some discussion about this and learn something new.

The only thing I learned was that Obama is to blame for his weak response. The whole discussion is Obama, Putin, Obama, Obama, Obama. Then they switched to discussing Obama's weak response to Israel. It was Obama, Hamas, Obama, Obama, Obama. Finally they spent a few minutes discussing Obama's weak response to the border crisis. It was Obama, illegal immigrants, Obama, Obama, Obama.
Click to expand...
the Jim Rome show?

 
timschochet said:
On my way to an appointment, I turned on my car radio hoping to hear some discussion about this and learn something new.

The only thing I learned was that Obama is to blame for his weak response. The whole discussion is Obama, Putin, Obama, Obama, Obama. Then they switched to discussing Obama's weak response to Israel. It was Obama, Hamas, Obama, Obama, Obama. Finally they spent a few minutes discussing Obama's weak response to the border crisis. It was Obama, illegal immigrants, Obama, Obama, Obama.
Click to expand...
Can we just have one thread on here that doesn't turn into something about Obama?

 
matttyl said:
timschochet said:
On my way to an appointment, I turned on my car radio hoping to hear some discussion about this and learn something new.

The only thing I learned was that Obama is to blame for his weak response. The whole discussion is Obama, Putin, Obama, Obama, Obama. Then they switched to discussing Obama's weak response to Israel. It was Obama, Hamas, Obama, Obama, Obama. Finally they spent a few minutes discussing Obama's weak response to the border crisis. It was Obama, illegal immigrants, Obama, Obama, Obama.
Click to expand...
Can we just have one thread on here that doesn't turn into something about Obama?
Click to expand...
Not while Tim has any say in it.

 
matttyl said:
timschochet said:
On my way to an appointment, I turned on my car radio hoping to hear some discussion about this and learn something new.

The only thing I learned was that Obama is to blame for his weak response. The whole discussion is Obama, Putin, Obama, Obama, Obama. Then they switched to discussing Obama's weak response to Israel. It was Obama, Hamas, Obama, Obama, Obama. Finally they spent a few minutes discussing Obama's weak response to the border crisis. It was Obama, illegal immigrants, Obama, Obama, Obama.
Click to expand...
Can we just have one thread on here that doesn't turn into something about Obama?
Click to expand...
That's what I wanted, but that ship sailed a long time ago.
 
timschochet said:
On my way to an appointment, I turned on my car radio hoping to hear some discussion about this and learn something new.

The only thing I learned was that Obama is to blame for his weak response. The whole discussion is Obama, Putin, Obama, Obama, Obama. Then they switched to discussing Obama's weak response to Israel. It was Obama, Hamas, Obama, Obama, Obama. Finally they spent a few minutes discussing Obama's weak response to the border crisis. It was Obama, illegal immigrants, Obama, Obama, Obama.
Click to expand...
Well at least they are right today.

 
Politician Spock said:
TheIronSheik said:
Politician Spock said:
TheIronSheik said:
B-Deep said:
TheIronSheik said:
Sinn Fein said:
GroveDiesel said:
Doug B said:
TheIronSheik said:
Just seems like the world is so worried about getting drawn into conflicts now that they are willing to take blows from anyone. I'll leave it at that.
Click to expand...
This is easy to understand -- there's pretty much nothing between economic/diplomatic sanctions and all-out war.

People may want something to be done ... be resolute that someone must pay. But realistically, nothing should be done.

Whatever thing it is that would be worth going to full-on war on Russian soil ... that thing is probably a lot more extrame than most realize.
Click to expand...
There are a ton of options between sanctions and all out war on Russia.

What's the downside of supplying weapons and equipment to Ukraine at this poin?
Click to expand...
Ukraine wins? Are you sure thats a good thing? Or, do you just assume that Russia is our enemy, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend?
Click to expand...
When did Ukraine become bad? :confused:
Click to expand...
I think his point is neither side may be the "good guys"and if ukraine wins and starts doing bad stuff we look dumb

like in syria where the appears to be bad guys and worse guys and you don;t want to be allies with either

i am not sure that is the case in ukraine, i do not know
Click to expand...
I understand his point. But when has Ukraine been bad? That's like saying in WWII, "Not sure if we should help the British. What if they turn bad. Then that's on us."
Click to expand...
Our involvement in WWII was about a wee bit more than one American passenger killed.
Click to expand...
Not my point. And exactly why I hate arguing in these threads.
Click to expand...
Well you keep asking us what should we do in response and aren't happy with "nothing". I think the burden is on you to justify what we should do, knowing that the Federal government has lost a ton of faith within the populace doing what it has done for decades and accomplished nothing.
Click to expand...
I'm not even arguing that point anymore. I said my peace on that. And I realize we disagree. All I was asking was when did we lose faith in the Ukraine?

The reason I don't argue in these threads is because no one's mind is going to be changed. And my opinion means nothing, really.

 
TheIronSheik said:
Politician Spock said:
TheIronSheik said:
Politician Spock said:
TheIronSheik said:
B-Deep said:
TheIronSheik said:
Sinn Fein said:
GroveDiesel said:
Doug B said:
This is easy to understand -- there's pretty much nothing between economic/diplomatic sanctions and all-out war.

People may want something to be done ... be resolute that someone must pay. But realistically, nothing should be done.

Whatever thing it is that would be worth going to full-on war on Russian soil ... that thing is probably a lot more extrame than most realize.
Click to expand...
There are a ton of options between sanctions and all out war on Russia.

What's the downside of supplying weapons and equipment to Ukraine at this poin?
Click to expand...
Ukraine wins? Are you sure thats a good thing? Or, do you just assume that Russia is our enemy, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend?
Click to expand...
When did Ukraine become bad? :confused:
Click to expand...
I think his point is neither side may be the "good guys"and if ukraine wins and starts doing bad stuff we look dumb

like in syria where the appears to be bad guys and worse guys and you don;t want to be allies with either

i am not sure that is the case in ukraine, i do not know
Click to expand...
I understand his point. But when has Ukraine been bad? That's like saying in WWII, "Not sure if we should help the British. What if they turn bad. Then that's on us."
Click to expand...
Our involvement in WWII was about a wee bit more than one American passenger killed.
Click to expand...
Not my point. And exactly why I hate arguing in these threads.
Click to expand...
Well you keep asking us what should we do in response and aren't happy with "nothing". I think the burden is on you to justify what we should do, knowing that the Federal government has lost a ton of faith within the populace doing what it has done for decades and accomplished nothing.
Click to expand...
I'm not even arguing that point anymore. I said my peace on that. And I realize we disagree. All I was asking was when did we lose faith in the Ukraine?The reason I don't argue in these threads is because no one's mind is going to be changed. And my opinion means nothing, really.
Click to expand...
Probably the same time frame we lost faith in the Syrian rebels.... you know, when they formed ISIS and destroyed eveything we accomplished in Iraq.

 
TheIronSheik said:
I'm not even arguing that point anymore. I said my peace on that. And I realize we disagree. All I was asking was when did we lose faith in the Ukraine?


The reason I don't argue in these threads is because no one's mind is going to be changed. And my opinion means nothing, really.
Click to expand...
it means something to me!

love your twitter feed, btw

 
Conversation is going smoothly :thumbup:

So have we decided to invade Russia while riding Amsterdam Red Light District hookers like horses into battle?

 
I love the ####### sensationalism coming out...

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/stocks-are-ignoring-reality-of-mh17-2014-07-18

"The incident isn’t just about the deplorable loss of 295 lives; it’s about a new eruption in global terrorism — a critical moment between the United States and Russia, East and West. It is the most dangerous geopolitical moment since the financial crisis and market crash of 2008-09."

First line in the story :hot:

I'm sorry, this is as much about USA vs Russia as it is Amsterdam vs Russia or Australia vs Russia or Malaysia vs Russia... I ####### hate everyone. A flight with one American on board going from one European country to an Asian country with an airlines headquartered in Asia isn't about East vs West... Are we the only ####### country on Earth??? :punchessomoneintheface,slapsdownmic,givesfinger:

 
fantasycurse42 said:
I love the ####### sensationalism coming out...

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/stocks-are-ignoring-reality-of-mh17-2014-07-18

"The incident isnt just about the deplorable loss of 295 lives; its about a new eruption in global terrorism a critical moment between the United States and Russia, East and West. It is the most dangerous geopolitical moment since the financial crisis and market crash of 2008-09."

First line in the story :hot:

I'm sorry, this is as much about USA vs Russia as it is Amsterdam vs Russia or Australia vs Russia or Malaysia vs Russia... I ####### hate everyone. A flight with one American on board going from one European country to an Asian country with an airlines headquartered in Asia isn't about East vs West... Are we the only ####### country on Earth??? :punchessomoneintheface,slapsdownmic,givesfinger:
Click to expand...
Fantastic post.
 
fantasycurse42 said:
I love the ####### sensationalism coming out...

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/stocks-are-ignoring-reality-of-mh17-2014-07-18

"The incident isn’t just about the deplorable loss of 295 lives; it’s about a new eruption in global terrorism — a critical moment between the United States and Russia, East and West. It is the most dangerous geopolitical moment since the financial crisis and market crash of 2008-09."

First line in the story :hot:

I'm sorry, this is as much about USA vs Russia as it is Amsterdam vs Russia or Australia vs Russia or Malaysia vs Russia... I ####### hate everyone. A flight with one American on board going from one European country to an Asian country with an airlines headquartered in Asia isn't about East vs West... Are we the only ####### country on Earth??? :punchessomoneintheface,slapsdownmic,givesfinger:
Click to expand...
Not defending the story (because truthfully, I didn't read it) but the bolded part is because we are the two super powers.

 
WhatDoIKnow said:
Can Putin use this as a somewhat clean exit from the conflict? Or would that be too much of a political issue for him?

I just remember McNamara talking about Khrushchev in The Fog of War.
Click to expand...
I don't think Putin wants an exit - I think he wants Ukraine. Crimea was critical to get the port, but I think he wants the territory back.

 
Sinn Fein said:
WhatDoIKnow said:
Can Putin use this as a somewhat clean exit from the conflict? Or would that be too much of a political issue for him?

I just remember McNamara talking about Khrushchev in The Fog of War.
Click to expand...
I don't think Putin wants an exit - I think he wants Ukraine. Crimea was critical to get the port, but I think he wants the territory back.
Click to expand...
I think Putin could definitely choose to ease out.

He's wanted Ukraine itself - or some false quasi state(s) like Donetsk - to join his stupid economic pact. Kazachstan and Belarus are total dictatorships, it's not going to happen in Ukraine now or ever and the East Ukraine has not folded like Crimea for a variety of reasons.

 
Sinn Fein said:
WhatDoIKnow said:
Can Putin use this as a somewhat clean exit from the conflict? Or would that be too much of a political issue for him?

I just remember McNamara talking about Khrushchev in The Fog of War.
Click to expand...
I don't think Putin wants an exit - I think he wants Ukraine. Crimea was critical to get the port, but I think he wants the territory back.
Click to expand...
Ithink he wants it like he has Belarus. With a nice puppet on the top

 
LarryAllen said:
timschochet said:
I think we to stop wasting time and invade Russia. Poland is our ally and can serve as the launching pad. My original plan is this: 3 separate armed pincers: one north to St. Petersburg, one central to Moscow, and one south to the Caucuses. This should catch the Russians completely by surprise.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Let's do it in the winter. All the Russian troops do in the winter is sit around drinking vodka. And be sure to smash Putingrad.

 
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