Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Agreed. Doesn't take much for me to consistently prove what a special kind of moron you really are. Well done.
Too easy....
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How vulnerable is the US? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Sinn Fein
- Start date
Fennis
Footballguy
NCCommish
Footballguy
The one that says that 70% of charities get at least 70% of their money to research and people. WWP gives about 58%. They do well in transparency so that upped their score. On the financial side they get 2 stars.The same reliable site that gives WWP three out of four stars as far as charitable organizations?To be fair Wounded Warriors is well below average in how much money makes it from your donation to someone who can use it. This is according to Charity Navigator which is a pretty reliable site.Jesus that site is horrible. Here are some of the stories from a quick glance of that website:Hey [i####]
I know you are passive aggressive and not very bright, but you might want to reconsider backing Veterans Today in your sig.
Basically it is an anti-Semitic, anti-government, rag that does not support the interest of veterans in the least.
The Wounded Warrior Project is highly rated among charity organizations raising more than $114 million for veteran's programs. Veterans today has raised $0.
I know you don't like me because I call you on all yourbut you should probably have some respect for veteran's issues. To bad mouth an organization that is a leader in spinal cord and head injury support and research is immature and obnoxious. You rarely have your facts straight, but you are way off the grid with this stunt.
Shame on you.
Its now established that US and international troops were deployed to the Ukraine under Exercise Rapid Trident - a 12-Nation joint military exercise in the Ukraine coinciding with the alleged crash of MH-17.
Interview Reveals US Army Facilitated actions in Eastern Ukraine. Did the Army hire Ukraine sub-contractors to haul imported crash debris ror camera fodder?
ISIS Follows Israeli/CIA Agenda (video)ISIS Follows Israeli/CIA Agenda (video)
Running out of time: Will the US attack the US again?
Hamas Pricks Israels Soft Under-Belly, Ben Gurion Airport
The Sandy Hook Smoking Gun: Game, Set, Match! (17934)
How many times have government and military exercises turned into false flag events like 9/11, Sandy Hook, Boston Marathon Bombing and now, perhaps the alleged missile attack on MH-17?
Ditka Butkus
Footballguy
As predicted some dude tried to bring Ebola to the US......When are they going to close travel from that part of the world...
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/29/health/ebola-outbreak-american-dies/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
NCCommish
Footballguy
It isn't spread as easily as all that. Now if Ebola ever goes airborne that will be some scary stuff. But people work for years with Ebola patients and never get sick. In fact this guy was helping his sister but didn't know she had Ebola so he probably wasn't as careful to start with.
jamny
Footballguy
El Floppo
Footballguy
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
I have no idea why you even got involved in this conversation. So you agree with [i####] that it's a scam?The one that says that 70% of charities get at least 70% of their money to research and people. WWP gives about 58%. They do well in transparency so that upped their score. On the financial side they get 2 stars.The same reliable site that gives WWP three out of four stars as far as charitable organizations?To be fair Wounded Warriors is well below average in how much money makes it from your donation to someone who can use it. This is according to Charity Navigator which is a pretty reliable site.Jesus that site is horrible. Here are some of the stories from a quick glance of that website:Hey [i####]
I know you are passive aggressive and not very bright, but you might want to reconsider backing Veterans Today in your sig.
Basically it is an anti-Semitic, anti-government, rag that does not support the interest of veterans in the least.
The Wounded Warrior Project is highly rated among charity organizations raising more than $114 million for veteran's programs. Veterans today has raised $0.
I know you don't like me because I call you on all your
Shame on you.
Its now established that US and international troops were deployed to the Ukraine under Exercise Rapid Trident - a 12-Nation joint military exercise in the Ukraine coinciding with the alleged crash of MH-17.
Interview Reveals US Army Facilitated actions in Eastern Ukraine. Did the Army hire Ukraine sub-contractors to haul imported crash debris ror camera fodder?
ISIS Follows Israeli/CIA Agenda (video)ISIS Follows Israeli/CIA Agenda (video)
Running out of time: Will the US attack the US again?
Hamas Pricks Israels Soft Under-Belly, Ben Gurion Airport
The Sandy Hook Smoking Gun: Game, Set, Match! (17934)
How many times have government and military exercises turned into false flag events like 9/11, Sandy Hook, Boston Marathon Bombing and now, perhaps the alleged missile attack on MH-17?
Please keep in mind [i####] has around a 65 IQ on a real good day.
jamny
Footballguy
Then I would say he almost brought it to the US. To me, tried implies that he knew he had it.
NCCommish
Footballguy
I got involved because that's what we do here. I have contributed to WWP. I am wearing one of their wristbands right now. But it is true that they are below average in the amount of donations that end up actually doing anything. That is just a plain indisputable fact. Would I call it a scam? Of course not. Dionne Warwick ran scams that were supposed to AIDS charitable functions where not one penny went to research or to help folks. In fact most of her fundraisers lost money for whoever put them on. That's a scam. These guys seem to be not as efficient in their fundraising as they could be and are perhaps spending too much on executive pay and such. So I would say they need to improve in those areas and if saying that is too much for you then I am not sure what to tell you.I have no idea why you even got involved in this conversation. So you agree with [i####] that it's a scam?The one that says that 70% of charities get at least 70% of their money to research and people. WWP gives about 58%. They do well in transparency so that upped their score. On the financial side they get 2 stars.The same reliable site that gives WWP three out of four stars as far as charitable organizations?To be fair Wounded Warriors is well below average in how much money makes it from your donation to someone who can use it. This is according to Charity Navigator which is a pretty reliable site.Jesus that site is horrible. Here are some of the stories from a quick glance of that website:Hey [i####]
I know you are passive aggressive and not very bright, but you might want to reconsider backing Veterans Today in your sig.
Basically it is an anti-Semitic, anti-government, rag that does not support the interest of veterans in the least.
The Wounded Warrior Project is highly rated among charity organizations raising more than $114 million for veteran's programs. Veterans today has raised $0.
I know you don't like me because I call you on all your
Shame on you.
Its now established that US and international troops were deployed to the Ukraine under Exercise Rapid Trident - a 12-Nation joint military exercise in the Ukraine coinciding with the alleged crash of MH-17.
Interview Reveals US Army Facilitated actions in Eastern Ukraine. Did the Army hire Ukraine sub-contractors to haul imported crash debris ror camera fodder?
ISIS Follows Israeli/CIA Agenda (video)ISIS Follows Israeli/CIA Agenda (video)
Running out of time: Will the US attack the US again?
Hamas Pricks Israels Soft Under-Belly, Ben Gurion Airport
The Sandy Hook Smoking Gun: Game, Set, Match! (17934)
How many times have government and military exercises turned into false flag events like 9/11, Sandy Hook, Boston Marathon Bombing and now, perhaps the alleged missile attack on MH-17?
Please keep in mind [i####] has around a 65 IQ on a real good day.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Thanks for the explanation. 36% goes to advertising and events to bring in money, they are going to always have that expense although they did address it as an issue they are working on. Places like DAV and PAV are like 60%+ in this regard, they aren't worth the time or the effort. I am active in the WWP, making a difference to those impacted by war is an important endeavor and should not be disparaged or libeled. WWP has taken action against Veteran's Today, I hope that rag is wiped off the internet for good. Those people aren't even far right wing, they are largely Timothy McVeigh types.I got involved because that's what we do here. I have contributed to WWP. I am wearing one of their wristbands right now. But it is true that they are below average in the amount of donations that end up actually doing anything. That is just a plain indisputable fact. Would I call it a scam? Of course not. Dionne Warwick ran scams that were supposed to AIDS charitable functions where not one penny went to research or to help folks. In fact most of her fundraisers lost money for whoever put them on. That's a scam. These guys seem to be not as efficient in their fundraising as they could be and are perhaps spending too much on executive pay and such. So I would say they need to improve in those areas and if saying that is too much for you then I am not sure what to tell you.I have no idea why you even got involved in this conversation. So you agree with [i####] that it's a scam?The one that says that 70% of charities get at least 70% of their money to research and people. WWP gives about 58%. They do well in transparency so that upped their score. On the financial side they get 2 stars.The same reliable site that gives WWP three out of four stars as far as charitable organizations?To be fair Wounded Warriors is well below average in how much money makes it from your donation to someone who can use it. This is according to Charity Navigator which is a pretty reliable site.Jesus that site is horrible. Here are some of the stories from a quick glance of that website:Hey [i####]
I know you are passive aggressive and not very bright, but you might want to reconsider backing Veterans Today in your sig.
Basically it is an anti-Semitic, anti-government, rag that does not support the interest of veterans in the least.
The Wounded Warrior Project is highly rated among charity organizations raising more than $114 million for veteran's programs. Veterans today has raised $0.
I know you don't like me because I call you on all your
Shame on you.
Its now established that US and international troops were deployed to the Ukraine under Exercise Rapid Trident - a 12-Nation joint military exercise in the Ukraine coinciding with the alleged crash of MH-17.
Interview Reveals US Army Facilitated actions in Eastern Ukraine. Did the Army hire Ukraine sub-contractors to haul imported crash debris ror camera fodder?
ISIS Follows Israeli/CIA Agenda (video)ISIS Follows Israeli/CIA Agenda (video)
Running out of time: Will the US attack the US again?
Hamas Pricks Israels Soft Under-Belly, Ben Gurion Airport
The Sandy Hook Smoking Gun: Game, Set, Match! (17934)
How many times have government and military exercises turned into false flag events like 9/11, Sandy Hook, Boston Marathon Bombing and now, perhaps the alleged missile attack on MH-17?
Please keep in mind [i####] has around a 65 IQ on a real good day.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Yeah they are not good.Thanks for the explanation. 36% goes to advertising and events to bring in money, they are going to always have that expense although they did address it as an issue they are working on. Places like DAV and PAV are like 60%+ in this regard, they aren't worth the time or the effort. I am active in the WWP, making a difference to those impacted by war is an important endeavor and should not be disparaged or libeled. WWP has taken action against Veteran's Today, I hope that rag is wiped off the internet for good. Those people aren't even far right wing, they are largely Timothy McVeigh types.I got involved because that's what we do here. I have contributed to WWP. I am wearing one of their wristbands right now. But it is true that they are below average in the amount of donations that end up actually doing anything. That is just a plain indisputable fact. Would I call it a scam? Of course not. Dionne Warwick ran scams that were supposed to AIDS charitable functions where not one penny went to research or to help folks. In fact most of her fundraisers lost money for whoever put them on. That's a scam. These guys seem to be not as efficient in their fundraising as they could be and are perhaps spending too much on executive pay and such. So I would say they need to improve in those areas and if saying that is too much for you then I am not sure what to tell you.I have no idea why you even got involved in this conversation. So you agree with [i####] that it's a scam?The one that says that 70% of charities get at least 70% of their money to research and people. WWP gives about 58%. They do well in transparency so that upped their score. On the financial side they get 2 stars.The same reliable site that gives WWP three out of four stars as far as charitable organizations?To be fair Wounded Warriors is well below average in how much money makes it from your donation to someone who can use it. This is according to Charity Navigator which is a pretty reliable site.Jesus that site is horrible. Here are some of the stories from a quick glance of that website:Hey [i####]
I know you are passive aggressive and not very bright, but you might want to reconsider backing Veterans Today in your sig.
Basically it is an anti-Semitic, anti-government, rag that does not support the interest of veterans in the least.
The Wounded Warrior Project is highly rated among charity organizations raising more than $114 million for veteran's programs. Veterans today has raised $0.
I know you don't like me because I call you on all your
Shame on you.
Its now established that US and international troops were deployed to the Ukraine under Exercise Rapid Trident - a 12-Nation joint military exercise in the Ukraine coinciding with the alleged crash of MH-17.
Interview Reveals US Army Facilitated actions in Eastern Ukraine. Did the Army hire Ukraine sub-contractors to haul imported crash debris ror camera fodder?
ISIS Follows Israeli/CIA Agenda (video)ISIS Follows Israeli/CIA Agenda (video)
Running out of time: Will the US attack the US again?
Hamas Pricks Israels Soft Under-Belly, Ben Gurion Airport
The Sandy Hook Smoking Gun: Game, Set, Match! (17934)
How many times have government and military exercises turned into false flag events like 9/11, Sandy Hook, Boston Marathon Bombing and now, perhaps the alleged missile attack on MH-17?
Please keep in mind [i####] has around a 65 IQ on a real good day.
jamny
Footballguy
Really?Thanks for the explanation. 36% goes to advertising and events to bring in money, they are going to always have that expense although they did address it as an issue they are working on. Places like DAV and PAV are like 60%+ in this regard, they aren't worth the time or the effort. I am active in the WWP, making a difference to those impacted by war is an important endeavor and should not be disparaged or libeled. WWP has taken action against Veteran's Today, I hope that rag is wiped off the internet for good. Those people aren't even far right wing, they are largely Timothy McVeigh types.I got involved because that's what we do here. I have contributed to WWP. I am wearing one of their wristbands right now. But it is true that they are below average in the amount of donations that end up actually doing anything. That is just a plain indisputable fact. Would I call it a scam? Of course not. Dionne Warwick ran scams that were supposed to AIDS charitable functions where not one penny went to research or to help folks. In fact most of her fundraisers lost money for whoever put them on. That's a scam. These guys seem to be not as efficient in their fundraising as they could be and are perhaps spending too much on executive pay and such. So I would say they need to improve in those areas and if saying that is too much for you then I am not sure what to tell you.I have no idea why you even got involved in this conversation. So you agree with [i####] that it's a scam?The one that says that 70% of charities get at least 70% of their money to research and people. WWP gives about 58%. They do well in transparency so that upped their score. On the financial side they get 2 stars.The same reliable site that gives WWP three out of four stars as far as charitable organizations?To be fair Wounded Warriors is well below average in how much money makes it from your donation to someone who can use it. This is according to Charity Navigator which is a pretty reliable site.Jesus that site is horrible. Here are some of the stories from a quick glance of that website:Hey [i####]
I know you are passive aggressive and not very bright, but you might want to reconsider backing Veterans Today in your sig.
Basically it is an anti-Semitic, anti-government, rag that does not support the interest of veterans in the least.
The Wounded Warrior Project is highly rated among charity organizations raising more than $114 million for veteran's programs. Veterans today has raised $0.
I know you don't like me because I call you on all your
Shame on you.
Its now established that US and international troops were deployed to the Ukraine under Exercise Rapid Trident - a 12-Nation joint military exercise in the Ukraine coinciding with the alleged crash of MH-17.
Interview Reveals US Army Facilitated actions in Eastern Ukraine. Did the Army hire Ukraine sub-contractors to haul imported crash debris ror camera fodder?
ISIS Follows Israeli/CIA Agenda (video)ISIS Follows Israeli/CIA Agenda (video)
Running out of time: Will the US attack the US again?
Hamas Pricks Israels Soft Under-Belly, Ben Gurion Airport
The Sandy Hook Smoking Gun: Game, Set, Match! (17934)
How many times have government and military exercises turned into false flag events like 9/11, Sandy Hook, Boston Marathon Bombing and now, perhaps the alleged missile attack on MH-17?
Please keep in mind [i####] has around a 65 IQ on a real good day.
We donate to DAV every year. Are they just inefficient?
NCCommish
Footballguy
I'm going to make DD mad again but not according to Charity Navigator. According to them 93.5% of all money taken in goes to programs and services DAV provides. Compare for yourself.. DAV and WWP .Really?Thanks for the explanation. 36% goes to advertising and events to bring in money, they are going to always have that expense although they did address it as an issue they are working on. Places like DAV and PAV are like 60%+ in this regard, they aren't worth the time or the effort. I am active in the WWP, making a difference to those impacted by war is an important endeavor and should not be disparaged or libeled. WWP has taken action against Veteran's Today, I hope that rag is wiped off the internet for good. Those people aren't even far right wing, they are largely Timothy McVeigh types.I got involved because that's what we do here. I have contributed to WWP. I am wearing one of their wristbands right now. But it is true that they are below average in the amount of donations that end up actually doing anything. That is just a plain indisputable fact. Would I call it a scam? Of course not. Dionne Warwick ran scams that were supposed to AIDS charitable functions where not one penny went to research or to help folks. In fact most of her fundraisers lost money for whoever put them on. That's a scam. These guys seem to be not as efficient in their fundraising as they could be and are perhaps spending too much on executive pay and such. So I would say they need to improve in those areas and if saying that is too much for you then I am not sure what to tell you.I have no idea why you even got involved in this conversation. So you agree with [i####] that it's a scam?The one that says that 70% of charities get at least 70% of their money to research and people. WWP gives about 58%. They do well in transparency so that upped their score. On the financial side they get 2 stars.The same reliable site that gives WWP three out of four stars as far as charitable organizations?To be fair Wounded Warriors is well below average in how much money makes it from your donation to someone who can use it. This is according to Charity Navigator which is a pretty reliable site.Jesus that site is horrible. Here are some of the stories from a quick glance of that website:Hey [i####]
I know you are passive aggressive and not very bright, but you might want to reconsider backing Veterans Today in your sig.
Basically it is an anti-Semitic, anti-government, rag that does not support the interest of veterans in the least.
The Wounded Warrior Project is highly rated among charity organizations raising more than $114 million for veteran's programs. Veterans today has raised $0.
I know you don't like me because I call you on all your
Shame on you.
Its now established that US and international troops were deployed to the Ukraine under Exercise Rapid Trident - a 12-Nation joint military exercise in the Ukraine coinciding with the alleged crash of MH-17.
Interview Reveals US Army Facilitated actions in Eastern Ukraine. Did the Army hire Ukraine sub-contractors to haul imported crash debris ror camera fodder?
ISIS Follows Israeli/CIA Agenda (video)ISIS Follows Israeli/CIA Agenda (video)
Running out of time: Will the US attack the US again?
Hamas Pricks Israels Soft Under-Belly, Ben Gurion Airport
The Sandy Hook Smoking Gun: Game, Set, Match! (17934)
How many times have government and military exercises turned into false flag events like 9/11, Sandy Hook, Boston Marathon Bombing and now, perhaps the alleged missile attack on MH-17?
Please keep in mind [i####] has around a 65 IQ on a real good day.
We donate to DAV every year. Are they just inefficient?
NCCommish
Footballguy
No problem. I usually check with them before i give anyone money. Has helped me avoid some true scammers out there who spend every dime on paying themselves.Thanks for the info NCC.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
I think it was disabled vets services, not dav, my bad. Paralyzed vets of America was in there for sure though.
Best ones are fisher house and the service relief orgs, all their money pretty much reaches troops/vets
Best ones are fisher house and the service relief orgs, all their money pretty much reaches troops/vets
Dan Gladden's Mustache
Footballguy
Can we get back to the destruction of western civilization please?
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Make sure you have your glock on your nightstand. /thread
Otis
Footballguy
So I'm better off stockpiling supplies using my extra money than paying down my mortgage or investing in the market?
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Maelstrom
Footballguy
As said earlier in the thread, the fact this hasn't happened shows just how few people really want to do this kind of stuff. Someone estimated earlier we may have 30k "extreme" Islamic folks here, based on 1% of the Islamic population as a whole. But that number is probably closer to .1%, maybe 3000 people. There are likely just as many extreme anti-government folks like some of the more extreme militias as there are Muslim's that would take action if given the opportunity. Now, that is only backed by cursory research, but what I found as far as documentation on estimates of extremists in the US put it far closer to 3000 than to 30000. And those are ones that identify as extremists, or sympathize with terrorist groups, but that doesn't mean all of those individuals would actually carry out attacks.
At worst, you might get upwards of 20 to 30 coordinated attacks, any kind of communication on the level that would be needed to pull off 1000 coordinated attacks would most like be leaked out to some form of law enforcement and get shut down pretty quickly, and probably before things escalate.
BUT even if the attacks DID manage to all get coordinated, half to 3/4 of American's would just sit glued to CNN/FOX/etc to find out how it's all getting resolved, even 1000 attacks are so spread out most people would not be affected. It would suck in the places struck, but likely get back to "normal" within a week or two of the event.
I don't think it could happen in the first place, but even if it did, I think the above scenarios vastly overestimate the amount of actual damage, physical or psychological, that would be done to the country.
Maelstrom
Footballguy
Economics are tricky, but while I respect his belief, I firmly disagree with Politician Spock's outlook on the US economic future. I've watched the videos, done similar research to what he has done, but come to vastly different conclusions. Mainly I put that on an optimistic outlook where I think we can solve the various issues we will encounter, rather than the pessimism he has toward our same ability to solve those issues. Although some of it comes from the fundamental disagreement in how "bad" fiat money is as it is currently used in the US economy.
So we know, given no significant changes in technology, that militarily, no one is really able to challenge the US in a firefight.
I don't believe, as expounded above, that internal extremists/terrorists can effectively plot together to create a big enough scenario where it would cause enough chaos to significantly affect the country.
And as in this post, I don't think that we are in significant danger economically of much more than an extended period of malaise, despite the challenges we definitely face.
There are dangers that haven't been discussed - stuff like technological advancement that happens outside the US causing some leap forward that leaves the US behind, or causes our military to be obsolete. Think computing power so vast it could take over any of the computer controlled vehicles, or at least cause human controlled ones to be destroyed by various means (i.e. feeding false data to a pilot so they crash instead of landing), or false instructions that end up causing friendly fire casualties. AI (artificial intelligence) is generally thought to still be years off, but a breakthrough could put us in a battle against machine intelligence if not handled properly. Corporate takeover of the government (not like what we see today, but where it gets to the point where it is changing the structure of our gov't) is another concern, where the country morphs into something that, while it technically still exists, is not the same country anymore. Targeted computer viruses could cause more economic harm than 1000 terrorist attacks simultaneously, not to mention shut down the electrical grid, etc.
Thankfully, we still tend to lead the world or at least, not be left behind, when it comes to innovation on a grand scale. So while these are concerns I rate above things like terrorist attacks or economic meltdown (due to our current economic policies), I still don't rate them very high on the list of likely to occur.
So I don't think we'll see the collapse of the US in our lifetime. We say it is inevitable to happen at some point, but even England, once a super power, hasn't even really collapsed completely the way people seem to think the US will. We may have some more rough patches to get through, but I think we have a bright future still ahead of us as a country.
So we know, given no significant changes in technology, that militarily, no one is really able to challenge the US in a firefight.
I don't believe, as expounded above, that internal extremists/terrorists can effectively plot together to create a big enough scenario where it would cause enough chaos to significantly affect the country.
And as in this post, I don't think that we are in significant danger economically of much more than an extended period of malaise, despite the challenges we definitely face.
There are dangers that haven't been discussed - stuff like technological advancement that happens outside the US causing some leap forward that leaves the US behind, or causes our military to be obsolete. Think computing power so vast it could take over any of the computer controlled vehicles, or at least cause human controlled ones to be destroyed by various means (i.e. feeding false data to a pilot so they crash instead of landing), or false instructions that end up causing friendly fire casualties. AI (artificial intelligence) is generally thought to still be years off, but a breakthrough could put us in a battle against machine intelligence if not handled properly. Corporate takeover of the government (not like what we see today, but where it gets to the point where it is changing the structure of our gov't) is another concern, where the country morphs into something that, while it technically still exists, is not the same country anymore. Targeted computer viruses could cause more economic harm than 1000 terrorist attacks simultaneously, not to mention shut down the electrical grid, etc.
Thankfully, we still tend to lead the world or at least, not be left behind, when it comes to innovation on a grand scale. So while these are concerns I rate above things like terrorist attacks or economic meltdown (due to our current economic policies), I still don't rate them very high on the list of likely to occur.
So I don't think we'll see the collapse of the US in our lifetime. We say it is inevitable to happen at some point, but even England, once a super power, hasn't even really collapsed completely the way people seem to think the US will. We may have some more rough patches to get through, but I think we have a bright future still ahead of us as a country.
Last edited by a moderator:
Otis
Footballguy
It's really a hypothetical. With the new mortgage I'm taking on, I won't have any extra money. But if I ever do, just want to be prepared.
El Floppo
Footballguy
JohnfrmCleveland
Footballguy
You have to think about why this kind of thing might happen, and what the actual effects would be. Everybody talks about economic collapse, debt, losing reserve currency status, etc., but few people bother to go further and think their way through what any of this stuff really means. (Here is a good article that touches upon some of these things.)I started the thread under the premise that we are not under a threat of a military attack. Icon's theory is unsettlingly well thought outand is within the realm of things that could happen, however unlikely. But even under that scenario - the damage will not be from the attacks themselves, but from any aftermath that disrupts the US/global economy.
I am one who thinks the US will collapse someday - not a big limb given that virtually every other great civilization has collapsed at some point - but it will like happen from within, and will be tied to an economic collapse rather than an invading army, or nuclear weapons. I think our economy is far more fragile, and built like a house of cards, than we would care to admit. If the demand for US currency diminished significantly - we will be in a world of hurt.
If you have the means of production, and the resources with which to produce stuff, your economy will probably be OK.
We are more in the consuming business than the production business these days.You have to think about why this kind of thing might happen, and what the actual effects would be. Everybody talks about economic collapse, debt, losing reserve currency status, etc., but few people bother to go further and think their way through what any of this stuff really means. (Here is a good article that touches upon some of these things.)I started the thread under the premise that we are not under a threat of a military attack. Icon's theory is unsettlingly well thought out
I am one who thinks the US will collapse someday - not a big limb given that virtually every other great civilization has collapsed at some point - but it will like happen from within, and will be tied to an economic collapse rather than an invading army, or nuclear weapons. I think our economy is far more fragile, and built like a house of cards, than we would care to admit. If the demand for US currency diminished significantly - we will be in a world of hurt.
If you have the means of production, and the resources with which to produce stuff, your economy will probably be OK.
We were a net exporter of goods and services for the most part from WWII to the early 1970s. Since then - production jobs have diminished, service jobs have increased, and we are on a significant net import run, that does not show any signs of abating.
If we were Germany, I'd feel better about our economy - but right now, our economy is propped up by the ability to issue debt. If we lose that ability - via a significant reduction in demand for US currency, it will be a while before we can regroup.
JohnfrmCleveland
Footballguy
Well, what does it really mean to "issue debt"? That makes it sound like we are borrowing our prosperity.We are more in the consuming business than the production business these days.You have to think about why this kind of thing might happen, and what the actual effects would be. Everybody talks about economic collapse, debt, losing reserve currency status, etc., but few people bother to go further and think their way through what any of this stuff really means. (Here is a good article that touches upon some of these things.)I started the thread under the premise that we are not under a threat of a military attack. Icon's theory is unsettlingly well thought out
I am one who thinks the US will collapse someday - not a big limb given that virtually every other great civilization has collapsed at some point - but it will like happen from within, and will be tied to an economic collapse rather than an invading army, or nuclear weapons. I think our economy is far more fragile, and built like a house of cards, than we would care to admit. If the demand for US currency diminished significantly - we will be in a world of hurt.
If you have the means of production, and the resources with which to produce stuff, your economy will probably be OK.
We were a net exporter of goods and services for the most part from WWII to the early 1970s. Since then - production jobs have diminished, service jobs have increased, and we are on a significant net import run, that does not show any signs of abating.
If we were Germany, I'd feel better about our economy - but right now, our economy is propped up by the ability to issue debt. If we lose that ability - via a significant reduction in demand for US currency, it will be a while before we can regroup.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Depends on where the debt created dollars end up.Well, what does it really mean to "issue debt"? That makes it sound like we are borrowing our prosperity.We are more in the consuming business than the production business these days.You have to think about why this kind of thing might happen, and what the actual effects would be. Everybody talks about economic collapse, debt, losing reserve currency status, etc., but few people bother to go further and think their way through what any of this stuff really means. (Here is a good article that touches upon some of these things.)I started the thread under the premise that we are not under a threat of a military attack. Icon's theory is unsettlingly well thought out
I am one who thinks the US will collapse someday - not a big limb given that virtually every other great civilization has collapsed at some point - but it will like happen from within, and will be tied to an economic collapse rather than an invading army, or nuclear weapons. I think our economy is far more fragile, and built like a house of cards, than we would care to admit. If the demand for US currency diminished significantly - we will be in a world of hurt.
If you have the means of production, and the resources with which to produce stuff, your economy will probably be OK.
We were a net exporter of goods and services for the most part from WWII to the early 1970s. Since then - production jobs have diminished, service jobs have increased, and we are on a significant net import run, that does not show any signs of abating.
If we were Germany, I'd feel better about our economy - but right now, our economy is propped up by the ability to issue debt. If we lose that ability - via a significant reduction in demand for US currency, it will be a while before we can regroup.
I think we are...I believe that our "wealth" is artificially created by our ability to create larger and larger deficits. We keep consuming more things, giving the illusion that we are more prosperous, but we are paying most of our bills with credit cards. When we lose the ability to pay on credit, and when future bills come due, we are in for a fair bit of belt-tightening and we don't really have many production jobs to turn to to crank up the economy, and start becoming a net exporter, bringing in cash to pay down our debts.Well, what does it really mean to "issue debt"? That makes it sound like we are borrowing our prosperity.We are more in the consuming business than the production business these days.You have to think about why this kind of thing might happen, and what the actual effects would be. Everybody talks about economic collapse, debt, losing reserve currency status, etc., but few people bother to go further and think their way through what any of this stuff really means. (Here is a good article that touches upon some of these things.)I started the thread under the premise that we are not under a threat of a military attack. Icon's theory is unsettlingly well thought out
I am one who thinks the US will collapse someday - not a big limb given that virtually every other great civilization has collapsed at some point - but it will like happen from within, and will be tied to an economic collapse rather than an invading army, or nuclear weapons. I think our economy is far more fragile, and built like a house of cards, than we would care to admit. If the demand for US currency diminished significantly - we will be in a world of hurt.
If you have the means of production, and the resources with which to produce stuff, your economy will probably be OK.
We were a net exporter of goods and services for the most part from WWII to the early 1970s. Since then - production jobs have diminished, service jobs have increased, and we are on a significant net import run, that does not show any signs of abating.
If we were Germany, I'd feel better about our economy - but right now, our economy is propped up by the ability to issue debt. If we lose that ability - via a significant reduction in demand for US currency, it will be a while before we can regroup.
moleculo
Footballguy
if it ever became more prosperous for us to manufacture here, we could turn it on in an instant. Just because we don't physically produce lots of stuff here doesn't mean we don't know how to.We are more in the consuming business than the production business these days.You have to think about why this kind of thing might happen, and what the actual effects would be. Everybody talks about economic collapse, debt, losing reserve currency status, etc., but few people bother to go further and think their way through what any of this stuff really means. (Here is a good article that touches upon some of these things.)I started the thread under the premise that we are not under a threat of a military attack. Icon's theory is unsettlingly well thought out
I am one who thinks the US will collapse someday - not a big limb given that virtually every other great civilization has collapsed at some point - but it will like happen from within, and will be tied to an economic collapse rather than an invading army, or nuclear weapons. I think our economy is far more fragile, and built like a house of cards, than we would care to admit. If the demand for US currency diminished significantly - we will be in a world of hurt.
If you have the means of production, and the resources with which to produce stuff, your economy will probably be OK.
We were a net exporter of goods and services for the most part from WWII to the early 1970s. Since then - production jobs have diminished, service jobs have increased, and we are on a significant net import run, that does not show any signs of abating.
If we were Germany, I'd feel better about our economy - but right now, our economy is propped up by the ability to issue debt. If we lose that ability - via a significant reduction in demand for US currency, it will be a while before we can regroup.
If something happened where Chinese labor was 2 or 3x what it is now, you would see factories popping up all over the place.
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Insoxicated
Exactly... there's no way in hell folks should be giving to Wounded Warrior Project. Far better options where much more of your money will actually get used for what you intended.
JohnfrmCleveland
Footballguy
JohnfrmCleveland
Footballguy
But there are no bills to come due. Bonds? Bonds are merely another way to hold dollars. You have a pile of dollars that you aren't planning on spending, so you exchange them for U.S. bonds. As far as the U.S. government is concerned, bonds and dollars represent the exact same kind of liability - more fiat dollars, which they can always make. They issue a million-dollar bond, and they take back a million dollars - their total liability doesn't change. Bonds haven't represented debt (as you and I know it) since we were on the gold standard, when bonds represented a promise to produce gold-convertible dollars in the future that they didn't have presently.
What can "come due" is lots of demand. There are lots of dollars out there that, right now, aren't being spent on American goods and services, but they could. I think American businesses would welcome that.
JohnfrmCleveland
Footballguy
Yes! Besides, we already produce a ton of stuff. But it's not radios, or textiles, or a lot of the stuff that we import right now. We really aren't in direct competition with the Chinese on everything they make, because a lot of it is just low-margin stuff. We are in different niches.
msommer
Footballguy
The cost of Chinese production is rising already, and as they run out of either migrant workers or space close to ports it will continue to rise even more.
In fact the Chinese government wants to boost production in the interior, not to serve the rest of the world but to serve the 500m +/- rural inhabitants that 'progress' has left behind. They want to do this not out of social altruism but to remain in power.
If you want to talk long term then something like 3D printing might be a technology that could really shake things up, in manufacturing, in transport and logistics, in IT/networks. Everybody could produce everything - assuming the technology advances sufficiently.
Your new bicycle might be 3D printed in carbonfiber or titanium. You might rent the specs for a new set of plates, kitchen knives etc from Amazon and print them in your garage (or rent time on your neighborhood 3D printer). etc.
That would be a radically different world, a much more local world. Would that spell the end of the US - or the nation state in general?
Who knows. We may not live to see it, anyway
In fact the Chinese government wants to boost production in the interior, not to serve the rest of the world but to serve the 500m +/- rural inhabitants that 'progress' has left behind. They want to do this not out of social altruism but to remain in power.
If you want to talk long term then something like 3D printing might be a technology that could really shake things up, in manufacturing, in transport and logistics, in IT/networks. Everybody could produce everything - assuming the technology advances sufficiently.
Your new bicycle might be 3D printed in carbonfiber or titanium. You might rent the specs for a new set of plates, kitchen knives etc from Amazon and print them in your garage (or rent time on your neighborhood 3D printer). etc.
That would be a radically different world, a much more local world. Would that spell the end of the US - or the nation state in general?
Who knows. We may not live to see it, anyway
moleculo
Footballguy
no. 3D printing is not the answer. I've been over this many times, it's kind of a pet peeve of mine. 3D printing is cool, it has it's place, but the days of a Star-Trek type replicator that can make anything is more fiction than science.
If it ever became more prosperous for us to do so, we would already be in trouble. And you can't simply crank up production - you have to build plants and production facilities, buy equipment, train employees - none of which will be easy to do in a depression - no money to loan businesses to make those investments.if it ever became more prosperous for us to manufacture here, we could turn it on in an instant. Just because we don't physically produce lots of stuff here doesn't mean we don't know how to.We are more in the consuming business than the production business these days.You have to think about why this kind of thing might happen, and what the actual effects would be. Everybody talks about economic collapse, debt, losing reserve currency status, etc., but few people bother to go further and think their way through what any of this stuff really means. (Here is a good article that touches upon some of these things.)I started the thread under the premise that we are not under a threat of a military attack. Icon's theory is unsettlingly well thought out
I am one who thinks the US will collapse someday - not a big limb given that virtually every other great civilization has collapsed at some point - but it will like happen from within, and will be tied to an economic collapse rather than an invading army, or nuclear weapons. I think our economy is far more fragile, and built like a house of cards, than we would care to admit. If the demand for US currency diminished significantly - we will be in a world of hurt.
If you have the means of production, and the resources with which to produce stuff, your economy will probably be OK.
We were a net exporter of goods and services for the most part from WWII to the early 1970s. Since then - production jobs have diminished, service jobs have increased, and we are on a significant net import run, that does not show any signs of abating.
If we were Germany, I'd feel better about our economy - but right now, our economy is propped up by the ability to issue debt. If we lose that ability - via a significant reduction in demand for US currency, it will be a while before we can regroup.
If something happened where Chinese labor was 2 or 3x what it is now, you would see factories popping up all over the place.
msommer
Footballguy
Oh, I definitely think it will be far more cumbersome to make stuff than in the replicators etc. mixing sands to make the right materials come out etc.
But stuff is happening. E.g. a company I used to work for is testing large scale 3D printers to make simple spares onboard their vessels, thus taking out the need to have an inventory of other than steel and aluminum base sands
msommer
Footballguy
The Chinese can lend you some bucks, though...If it ever became more prosperous for us to do so, we would already be in trouble. And you can't simply crank up production - you have to build plants and production facilities, buy equipment, train employees - none of which will be easy to do in a depression - no money to loan businesses to make those investments.if it ever became more prosperous for us to manufacture here, we could turn it on in an instant. Just because we don't physically produce lots of stuff here doesn't mean we don't know how to.We are more in the consuming business than the production business these days.You have to think about why this kind of thing might happen, and what the actual effects would be. Everybody talks about economic collapse, debt, losing reserve currency status, etc., but few people bother to go further and think their way through what any of this stuff really means. (Here is a good article that touches upon some of these things.)I started the thread under the premise that we are not under a threat of a military attack. Icon's theory is unsettlingly well thought out
I am one who thinks the US will collapse someday - not a big limb given that virtually every other great civilization has collapsed at some point - but it will like happen from within, and will be tied to an economic collapse rather than an invading army, or nuclear weapons. I think our economy is far more fragile, and built like a house of cards, than we would care to admit. If the demand for US currency diminished significantly - we will be in a world of hurt.
If you have the means of production, and the resources with which to produce stuff, your economy will probably be OK.
We were a net exporter of goods and services for the most part from WWII to the early 1970s. Since then - production jobs have diminished, service jobs have increased, and we are on a significant net import run, that does not show any signs of abating.
If we were Germany, I'd feel better about our economy - but right now, our economy is propped up by the ability to issue debt. If we lose that ability - via a significant reduction in demand for US currency, it will be a while before we can regroup.
If something happened where Chinese labor was 2 or 3x what it is now, you would see factories popping up all over the place.
JohnfrmCleveland
Footballguy
OK, then - explain what bills are going to "come due," and why the U.S. wouldn't be able to meet their obligations.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Not even sure why you care. The only thing you've ever served is some BB-Q that you probably took entirely too much credit for.Exactly... there's no way in hell folks should be giving to Wounded Warrior Project. Far better options where much more of your money will actually get used for what you intended.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
When the Federal Reserve buys a bond, the interest on the bond goes to the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve uses the interest to pay it's operating expenses, pays the stock holders of the 12 Federal Reserve banks a guaranteed 6% return on their equity investment and the returns the rest to the US Treasury. At some point of Federal Reserve Bond buying, all operating expenses are paid, all dividends are paid, and thus 100% of the interest goes to the US Treasury. Once that point is reached all Fed bond buying is essentially a wash to the tax payers. So all new dollars created by Fed bond buying is "free" money for the government.
When a bond is bought by an entity other than the Fed, the interest belongs to that entity. If the entity is domestic, this is essentially us borrowing from our own prosperity. However, when the entity is foreign, this process gives the foreign entity a claim on our prosperity. When the dollar was backed by gold, it was a claim on our gold. With it not backed by gold it is a claim on our prosperity. The more the world uses our dollars for international trade, the more they demand more claims on our prosperity. When the pattern reverses, it's a bank run. When the dollar was backed by gold, it would be a bank run on our gold. We would run out of gold before all claims could be cashed in. With it not being backed by gold, it's still a bank run, but in this case the question is do we have enough prosperity to pay all the claims, or are there more claims on our prosperity than what we currently have. Today, we probably have enough. But if we did your idea of endless printing, we would eventually cross the line that we wouldn't, which as soon as the world realizes that, the bank run starts.
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JohnfrmCleveland
Footballguy
First of all, I never said anything about endless printing. Let's clear that up right now.
But what you call a "claim on our prosperity," I call "potential future demand." If bondholders cash in and spend, and we can meet that demand, great, our businesses are happy, and our government, if it so chooses, is in a better position to run a fiscal surplus and rein in some of those dollar liabilities (since a trade surplus means a net flow of dollars back into the country). But history shows that very few of those dollars actually do get spent. If they did, we wouldn't be running a trade deficit.
So now the question is, where is this threshold, and why do you think one exists?
Politician Spock
Footballguy
You're assuming that all redemptions of these claims on our prosperity would be consumption based purchases. I don't.
If china already has everything they want to consume, but they still want to redeem their claims on our prosperity, they buy our companies, our homes, our real estate, our land rights, etc, etc....
JohnfrmCleveland
Footballguy
That was my initial concern as well when I started learning about this stuff. I think we already blocked the sale of Unocal (?) to the Chinese at some point. So you always have political pressure to fall back on.
But we do allow foreigners to buy a lot of stuff anyway. Just like we invest in foreign countries. There are some good things about it, and some not-so-good things, but if you are a sovereign country, this is all done with your permission.
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