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Russian Bombers Increase Flights Near U.S. Airspace (1 Viewer)

tom22406

Footballguy
For the second time since June, Russian nuclear bombers escorted by fighter jets have flown near U.S. and Canadian airspace around Alaska in recent days, prompting precautionary intercepts by American warplanes.

The encounters come amid Russian war games along the border with eastern Ukraine, raising Western concerns that Moscow might invade to support pro-Moscow separatists battling the Kiev government since spring.

A U.S. air command official acknowledged at least 16 Russian forays around Alaska and northern Canada in the past 10 days, describing them as routine training missions. One intercept spotted a Russian spy plane among the Tupolev Tu-95 "Bear" bombers and Tu-142 reconnaissance and anti-submarine aircraft.

"Over the past week, NORAD has visually identified Russian aircraft operating in and around the U.S. air defense identification zones," Maj. Beth Smith, of the U.S. Northern Command and the North American Aerospace Defense Command, toldThe Washington Free Beacon.


Russian bombers have regularly flown along the sensitive airspace between Russia, Alaska and Arctic Canada, but Smith called the latest missions "a spike in activity."

The Russian defense military announced July 30 that "several" Tu-95MS strategic bombers escorted by MiG-31 interceptors had flown over the Arctic that day.

A military spokesman told the ITAR-TASS news agency that "all flights were scheduled in advance and were made in strict compliance with the international rules of using airspace without trespassing the borders of other countries."

Wednesday, a squadron of Sukhoi Su-34 fighter-bombers flew over the Barents and Kara seas "for the first time," ITAR-TASS reported.

Russian Air Force Chief Commander Lt. Gen. Viktor Bondarev called the Arctic drills "the top goal" of air exercises in Russia's southern Astrakhan region. In July, Tu-95s bombed simulated naval targets in the Black Sea.

In response to the overthrow of the Moscow-backed president of Ukraine, Russian President Vladimir Putin annexed the Black Sea peninsula of Crimea in April.

The July drills came a month after U.S. F-22s intercepted four Tu-95 Bears over the far western Aleutian Islands. Two of the strategic bombers then flew within 50 miles of the Northern California coast before turning away.

Russian military spokesman Col. Alexander Gordeyev said last month that "the intensity of Air Force flights in the Arctic increased several-fold" this year. He said that in addition to patrolling and searching for "foreign submarines," the Arctic flights were for "ensuring the security of sea navigation and carrying out search and rescue, and scientific missions," ITAR-TASS reported.

To some U.S. military officials, the excursions carry echoes of the Cold War, when Soviet nuclear bombers tested U.S. air defenses.

In a reminder that the surveillance is not one sided. a Russian fighter jet intercepted a U.S. spy plane in April about 60 miles off the coast of eastern Russia, in international airspace over the Sea of Okhotsk, north of Japan.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/08/07/russia-bombers-arctic/13746681/
Nothing to see here?

 
I miss this guy

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/putin-on-joining-nato-if-as-equals-why-not/265846.html

Acting President Vladimir Putin, in an unexpected gesture to the West, suggested in a television interview Sunday that Russia would consider joining NATO if the Western alliance agreed to treat Russia as an equal partner.

"Why not? Why not?" Putin said when asked by BBC interviewer David Frost about Russian membership. "I do not rule out such a possibility ... in the case that Russia's interests will be reckoned with, if it will be an equal partner.

"Russia is a part of European culture, and I do not consider my own country in isolation from Europe and from ... what we often talk about as the civilized world," Putin said. "Therefore, it is with difficulty that I imagine NATO as an enemy."
 
So.. Putin is still eating 0bama's lunch?
The Russian economy is doing very poorly, perhaps showing sides of falling apart. If you call distracting the Russian people with fierce nationalism eating Obama's lunch... then yes.

 
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RT's take

Russian strategic nuclear bombers and other military aircraft entered US air defense identification zones (ADIZs) at least 16 times over the past ten days, American defense officials confirmed on Thursday.

“Over the past week, NORAD has visually identified Russian aircraft operating in and around the US air defense identification zones,” said Maj. Beth Smith, spokeswoman for US Northern Command and the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD).

Smith sought to downplay the incursions that she called “a spike in activity,” telling the Washington Free Beacon’s Bill Gertz that the flights were assessed as routine training missions and exercises.

But an unnamed defense official familiar with the incursion reports disagreed with Smith’s assessment. “These are not just training missions,” the official told Gertz, saying that Russian strategic nuclear forces appear to be “trying to test our air defense reactions, or our command and control systems.”

NORAD scrambled fighter jets several times when Russian strategic aircraft flew along US ADIZs. The planes included a mix of Tu-95 Bear H heavy bombers and Tu-142 Bear F maritime reconnaissance aircraft, as well as one IL-20 intelligence collection aircraft, Smith said.

The bomber flights took place mainly along the Alaskan air defense identification zone that covers the Aleutian Islands and the continental part of the state, and one incursion involved entry into Canada’s air defense zone, she added.


“Such aerial bravado has been rare since the fall of the Soviet Union,” News.com.au wrote. “Until now.”

“And it all appears to be a direct result of the cooling of relations between the West and Russia over the invasion of Crimea and the shooting-down of MH17,” the Australian News Corp site added.

During the Cold War, Soviet bombers sought to trigger US air defenses as preparation for a potential nuclear conflict.

The recent spike in activity after a surface-to-air missile brought down the Malaysia Airlines plane is not the first time Russian military planes were detected in US ADIZs this summer. On June 9, a pair of Tu-95 Bear H aircraft maintained by Russia came close to US airspace during practice bombing while four of the planes were conducting bombing runs near Alaska, a NORAD spokesman told Gertz.

“After tracking the bombers as they flew eastward, two of the four Bears turned around and headed west toward the Russian Far East,” he wrote of the June incident. “The remaining two nuclear-capable bombers then flew southeast and around 9:30 P.M. entered the US northern air defense zone off the coast of Northern California.”

Those two aircraft, Gertz added, made it within 50 miles of the coast before turning around after a US F-15 intercepted them.

Russian aircraft have also made incursions into other countries’ airspace this year. In June, the UK’s Royal Air Force scrambled Typhoon fighter jets to intercept four flights of aircraft in the airspace around the Baltic states. The planes included advanced Tu-22M Backfire bombers, Su-27 Flanker interceptors, an A-50 Mainstay radar aircraft and a transport aircraft, News.com.au wrote. Russian-owned Tu-95 bombers skirted UK airspace and have come close to US property in both Guam and California, The Aviationist reported in May.

In an April incident in international airspace between Russia and Japan, two Russian Su-27 Flanker interceptors flew beneath a US Air Force reconnaissance plane, then “popped up” ahead of the jet, which was forced to take evasive maneuvers, according to News.com.au.

The United States has been flying spy missions of its own, however. Over the weekend, US officials confirmed Swedish media reports that an American spy plane invaded Sweden’s airspace in mid-July. The maverick plane was spying on Russia when it was intercepted, and was evading a Russian fighter jet when it entered Swedish airspace without permission. Air traffic control had denied the Boeing RC-135 Rivet Joint entrance, Svenska Dagbladet (SvD) newspaper said. The incident occurred on July 18, the day after MH17 was shot down.
 
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The 80's called....
:yes:

Turns out Romney was pretty much right about everything.

Hillary wasn't any better than Obama on it either.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton hit back Sunday against Mitt Romney’s comments this week that Russia is America’s main “geopolitical foe.”
Labeling Romney’s words as “dated,” Clinton said in an interview with CNN there were more pressing matters of concern in global affairs.
“I think it’s somewhat dated to be looking backwards instead of being realistic about where we agree, where we don’t agree,” Clinton told CNN Foreign Affairs Correspondent Jill Dougherty.
On Monday, Romney set off a firestorm of criticism when he described Russia as the country’s primary enemy.
“In terms of a geopolitical foe, a nation that’s on the Security Council, and as of course a massive nuclear power, Russia is the geopolitical foe,” Romney said on CNN’s “The Situation Room.”
Romney’s rivals, Republicans and Democrats alike, immediately jumped on his remarks and used them as an opportunity to paint the candidate as out of touch on foreign policy issues.
 
The 80's called....
:yes:

Turns out Romney was pretty much right about everything.

Hillary wasn't any better than Obama on it either.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton hit back Sunday against Mitt Romney’s comments this week that Russia is America’s main “geopolitical foe.”
Labeling Romney’s words as “dated,” Clinton said in an interview with CNN there were more pressing matters of concern in global affairs.
“I think it’s somewhat dated to be looking backwards instead of being realistic about where we agree, where we don’t agree,” Clinton told CNN Foreign Affairs Correspondent Jill Dougherty.
On Monday, Romney set off a firestorm of criticism when he described Russia as the country’s primary enemy.
“In terms of a geopolitical foe, a nation that’s on the Security Council, and as of course a massive nuclear power, Russia is the geopolitical foe,” Romney said on CNN’s “The Situation Room.”
Romney’s rivals, Republicans and Democrats alike, immediately jumped on his remarks and used them as an opportunity to paint the candidate as out of touch on foreign policy issues.
It still amazes me that people view Hillary as somehow competent. Her career has been one screw-up after another.

 
So.. Putin is still eating 0bama's lunch?
The Russian economy is doing very poorly, perhaps showing sides of falling apart. If you call distracting the Russian people with fierce nationalism eating Obama's lunch... then yes.
It is really amazing the people love him so much

Russian President Vladimir Putin's approval ratings soared to an all-time high of 87% this week, leaving just 13% of his countrymen and women shaking their heads at the man who's helped send eastern Europe into crisis.

http://mashable.com/2014/08/06/putin-approval-rating/
 
So.. Putin is still eating 0bama's lunch?
The Russian economy is doing very poorly, perhaps showing sides of falling apart. If you call distracting the Russian people with fierce nationalism eating Obama's lunch... then yes.
It is really amazing the people love him so much

Russian President Vladimir Putin's approval ratings soared to an all-time high of 87% this week, leaving just 13% of his countrymen and women shaking their heads at the man who's helped send eastern Europe into crisis.

http://mashable.com/2014/08/06/putin-approval-rating/
I work with several Russians who are extremely supportive of what Putin is doing in Ukraine. Theses are people who left Russia, because of economic and political reasons, and in the past have spoken out against Putin. I don't think they really like the guy.

I think with the collapse of the Soviet Union all these tough Russians felt like a beaten dog and now they have a sense of being the tough guy with nationalistic pride again. And it appeals to them. Just my take...

 
Tell Putin that if he invades Canada he will cross some pretty colored line,. That ought to tell him we mean business.

 
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Both sides are engaging in similar activity. I'd bet for every flight intercept we hear about, there are dozens that go unreported (though NORAD certainly knows about them)

It's a shame that Russia considers herself on quasi-war footing, but here we are. Will be interested to see how this resolves over the coming decades ... hope it's more Cold War II than Word War III.

 
So.. Putin is still eating 0bama's lunch?
The Russian economy is doing very poorly, perhaps showing sides of falling apart. If you call distracting the Russian people with fierce nationalism eating Obama's lunch... then yes.
It is really amazing the people love him so much

Russian President Vladimir Putin's approval ratings soared to an all-time high of 87% this week, leaving just 13% of his countrymen and women shaking their heads at the man who's helped send eastern Europe into crisis.

http://mashable.com/2014/08/06/putin-approval-rating/
I work with several Russians who are extremely supportive of what Putin is doing in Ukraine. Theses are people who left Russia, because of economic and political reasons, and in the past have spoken out against Putin. I don't think they really like the guy.

I think with the collapse of the Soviet Union all these tough Russians felt like a beaten dog and now they have a sense of being the tough guy with nationalistic pride again. And it appeals to them. Just my take...
One of my closest friends is Russian and she basically thinks Vlad can do no wrong so I agree with your take completely.

 
Both sides are engaging in similar activity. I'd bet for every flight intercept we hear about, there are dozens that go unreported (though NORAD certainly knows about them)

It's a shame that Russia considers herself on quasi-war footing, but here we are. Will be interested to see how this resolves over the coming decades ... hope it's more Cold War II than Word War III.
I'm wondering what exactly is Putin's end game in all of this.Just to flex a little muscle or actually start the big one?

 
The 80's called....
:yes:

Turns out Romney was pretty much right about everything.

Hillary wasn't any better than Obama on it either.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton hit back Sunday against Mitt Romney’s comments this week that Russia is America’s main “geopolitical foe.”

Labeling Romney’s words as “dated,” Clinton said in an interview with CNN there were more pressing matters of concern in global affairs.

“I think it’s somewhat dated to be looking backwards instead of being realistic about where we agree, where we don’t agree,” Clinton told CNN Foreign Affairs Correspondent Jill Dougherty.

On Monday, Romney set off a firestorm of criticism when he described Russia as the country’s primary enemy.

“In terms of a geopolitical foe, a nation that’s on the Security Council, and as of course a massive nuclear power, Russia is the geopolitical foe,” Romney said on CNN’s “The Situation Room.”

Romney’s rivals, Republicans and Democrats alike, immediately jumped on his remarks and used them as an opportunity to paint the candidate as out of touch on foreign policy issues.
It still amazes me that people view Hillary as somehow competent. Her career has been one screw-up after another.
I challenge you on this. I believe Hillary Clinton is extremely competent. And both she and Obama were correct here, and Romney was wrong. Russia is NOT a major geopolitical enemy of the United States. Right now, there are tensions between us, but I expect them to smooth over, as both countries have too much at stake around the world for that to happen. Anyone expecting either a war with Russia (unthinkable) or a return to Cold War status (extremely unlikely) has their blinders on, IMO.

as for Sarnoff's orignal post, it's just more evidence of his one-trick pony attitude- use whatever is happening to attack Obama. It's without any foundation, and should be disregarded.

 
Both sides are engaging in similar activity. I'd bet for every flight intercept we hear about, there are dozens that go unreported (though NORAD certainly knows about them)

It's a shame that Russia considers herself on quasi-war footing, but here we are. Will be interested to see how this resolves over the coming decades ... hope it's more Cold War II than Word War III.
I'm wondering what exactly is Putin's end game in all of this.Just to flex a little muscle or actually start the big one?
Almost 100% sure it's the bolded. He wants the US off his back over the Ukraine. And there are probably some trade concessions he wants.

 
Why Vladimir Putin isn't going to make peace

(CNN) -- The killing of 298 innocent people on board Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was a crime, a consequence of the war against Ukraine that Vladimir Putin started, and which he supplies, directs and controls. The Russian President bears full responsibility for this war, including the downing of the Malaysian airliner.

The main problem with our reaction to Russian aggression is not even the mildness of our sanctions, but the lack of clarity of their purpose. Our message to Putin is very confused. Do we want him completely out of Ukraine, or do we want his help in dealing with that country? They are two very different requests.

Despite Putin's offenses, Western leaders apparently still want him to play an active role in securing peace and stability. According to the White House, on July 17, "President Obama called on President Putin to take concrete steps to de-escalate the situation, including pressing separatists to agree to a cease-fire."


After the Malaysian airliner was shot down, German Chancellor Angela Merkel urged Putin to use his influence with the rebels to ensure a cease-fire. In recent appearances on several TV shows, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry asked Putin to take "immediate and clear action to reduce tensions in Ukraine," "to step up and make a difference," and "to use all his influence."

Despite their harsh words for Putin, leaders of the West still want his help. British Prime Minister David Cameron summed it up best when he said: "We sometimes behave as if we need Russia more than Russia needs us."

Putin is only too glad to put on sheep's clothing and assume the role of peacemaker that he has pretended to be throughout the war that he himself started. According to him, annexing Crimea, shooting down airplanes and supporting separatists has only one purpose: to protect the Ukrainian people from alleged right-wing extremists.

If you want Putin's help, beware of what you are asking. He would be glad to broker a "diplomatic solution" with the separatists, thus legitimizing his terrorists and entrenching them on Ukrainian territory.

If that option doesn't work, we can imagine the following completely different scenario: Russian tanks roll over Donetsk. Instead of supporting the separatists, Putin arrests leaders of the Donetsk republic and persecutes them for terrorizing the local population. Blaming the Ukrainian government for its inability to protect people from the terrorists, he establishes full control over the territory, and leaves Russian troops there to secure law, order and tranquility.

How would the world react to such a "peacekeeping mission"? Would the Ukrainian army fight Russian troops? Would Western political leaders accept this as a plausible option? I do not know. But what is more important, Putin doesn't know either. We should make very clear that we would not accept Putin as a peacekeeper and we want him out of Ukraine.

Western governments should not implicitly accept the aggressive doctrine called the "Russian World," which was endorsed by Putin, and which gives him the right to intervene into the affairs of virtually any sovereign nation, as he did in Ukraine, using the pretext of protecting Russian-speaking citizens.

The major concern of Western leaders is that by taking a strong stand against Putin, we may lose him as a useful partner in the world arena. We shouldn't worry about that. History clearly demonstrates that in all major international trouble spots in which we accepted Putin as our partner, Russia has always taken the side of the West's enemy. Such has been the case with Iraq, North Korea, Syria and Iran.

It was only natural for Putin to use any invitation on our part as an opportunity to damage us. One should not expect anything different from a person with the background of a KGB officer, for whom America always has been enemy No. 1, and for whom anti-Americanism is a pillar of his power.

If America is Russia's enemy, Putin's Russia cannot be our ally. Whether we like it or not, such relations are reciprocal. And from an enemy we do not need help. We need only check its aggression. For that purpose we should take the following steps:

1. Publicly recognize that Putin is not our ally or partner, but rather our foe, and make this position clear to him and to the rest of the world.

2. Ensure that our demands to Russia be absolutely clear. Stop supporting separatists in Ukraine. We do not need Putin as a broker or peacemaker. Putin must completely get out of Ukrainian territory and Ukrainian politics.

3. Make clear that Putin's help is not needed in any other part of the world. Exclude Russia as our partner or as a mediator from any international arrangements and negotiations.

4. Reiterate our position of not accepting the annexation of Crimea. Demand that it be returned to Ukraine.

5. Stop propagating Putin's propaganda. Instead, counter it with all the power of America's media. Expand broadcasts by Radio Liberty and other radio stations.

6. Make it clear that we consider the "Russian World" policy a threat to world peace and stability. Insist that Russia officially renounce that doctrine and repeal supporting legislation as necessary conditions for Russia's readmission to the community of civilized nations.
7. To stop aggression against Ukraine and to prevent aggressions against other countries, make Russia pay a high price by introducing sector and other serious economic sanctions. Be ready to accept the cost of those sanctions.

8. Take immediate steps to reduce that cost and any dependence on Russia. Develop new energy sources and transportation systems in America and Europe.

9. Provide help, including military assistance, to those who are under immediate attack or potential aggression by Russia.

10. Revisit communism, an ideology that remains important in Russia as well as other countries. Educate new generations about its atrocities and bankrupt ideology.

Opponents of strong action against an aggressor wrongly equate political confrontation with war. They believe that admitting that the second largest nuclear power is our enemy would usher in another Cold War and make the situation much more dangerous.


History teaches us, however, that to ignore reality and appease our enemy is a more dangerous approach than to clearly articulate our principles and disagreements.

When in 1983 the Soviets shot down Korean Air Lines Flight 007, Ronald Reagan denounced them as enemies of the United States and the entire world. Reagan's strong stand against the Soviet communism that threatened us for decades with nuclear war helped stop its expansion and eventually led to its complete capitulation. If we could stand against the mighty Soviet Union, we can manage Putin's much weaker Russia.

In February 2000, only two months into his presidency, Vladimir Putin presented one of his first state awards to Air Force Gen. Anatoly Kornukov. In 1983, Kornukov was commander of Sokol Airbase in Sakhalin. His order to the fighter pilot was: "Destroy the target!"

The target was Korean Air Lines Flight 007.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/07/opinion/yarim-agaev-putin-not-peacemaker/
 
timschochet said:
IvanKaramazov said:
Sarnoff said:
psychobillies said:
The 80's called....
:yes:

Turns out Romney was pretty much right about everything.

Hillary wasn't any better than Obama on it either.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton hit back Sunday against Mitt Romneys comments this week that Russia is Americas main geopolitical foe.

Labeling Romneys words as dated, Clinton said in an interview with CNN there were more pressing matters of concern in global affairs.

I think its somewhat dated to be looking backwards instead of being realistic about where we agree, where we dont agree, Clinton told CNN Foreign Affairs Correspondent Jill Dougherty.

On Monday, Romney set off a firestorm of criticism when he described Russia as the countrys primary enemy.

In terms of a geopolitical foe, a nation thats on the Security Council, and as of course a massive nuclear power, Russia is the geopolitical foe, Romney said on CNNs The Situation Room.

Romneys rivals, Republicans and Democrats alike, immediately jumped on his remarks and used them as an opportunity to paint the candidate as out of touch on foreign policy issues.
It still amazes me that people view Hillary as somehow competent. Her career has been one screw-up after another.
I challenge you on this. I believe Hillary Clinton is extremely competent. And both she and Obama were correct here, and Romney was wrong. Russia is NOT a major geopolitical enemy of the United States. Right now, there are tensions between us, but I expect them to smooth over, as both countries have too much at stake around the world for that to happen. Anyone expecting either a war with Russia (unthinkable) or a return to Cold War status (extremely unlikely) has their blinders on, IMO.as for Sarnoff's orignal post, it's just more evidence of his one-trick pony attitude- use whatever is happening to attack Obama. It's without any foundation, and should be disregarded.
:lol:

 
Sarnoff said:
psychobillies said:
The 80's called....
:yes:

Turns out Romney was pretty much right about everything.

Hillary wasn't any better than Obama on it either.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton hit back Sunday against Mitt Romney’s comments this week that Russia is America’s main “geopolitical foe.”
Labeling Romney’s words as “dated,” Clinton said in an interview with CNN there were more pressing matters of concern in global affairs.
“I think it’s somewhat dated to be looking backwards instead of being realistic about where we agree, where we don’t agree,” Clinton told CNN Foreign Affairs Correspondent Jill Dougherty.
On Monday, Romney set off a firestorm of criticism when he described Russia as the country’s primary enemy.
“In terms of a geopolitical foe, a nation that’s on the Security Council, and as of course a massive nuclear power, Russia is the geopolitical foe,” Romney said on CNN’s “The Situation Room.”
Romney’s rivals, Republicans and Democrats alike, immediately jumped on his remarks and used them as an opportunity to paint the candidate as out of touch on foreign policy issues.
Russia isn't a main foe. They are a hollow shell. Have been since the 80's. Economy in the toilet. Poorly trained troops with crappy morale. Serious alcohol and drug abuse problems both in the civilian and military sphere. Main foe? Yeah maybe for a tiny former Soviet Bloc country but the US? Not so much.

 
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timschochet said:
tom22406 said:
Doug B said:
Both sides are engaging in similar activity. I'd bet for every flight intercept we hear about, there are dozens that go unreported (though NORAD certainly knows about them)

It's a shame that Russia considers herself on quasi-war footing, but here we are. Will be interested to see how this resolves over the coming decades ... hope it's more Cold War II than Word War III.
I'm wondering what exactly is Putin's end game in all of this.Just to flex a little muscle or actually start the big one?
Almost 100% sure it's the bolded. He wants the US off his back over the Ukraine. And there are probably some trade concessions he wants.
Yeah, he's just wagging the dog a little lately. Nothing serious. I mean, it's not like he annexed part of another country or shot down a civilian aircraft or anything.

 
timschochet said:
tom22406 said:
Doug B said:
Both sides are engaging in similar activity. I'd bet for every flight intercept we hear about, there are dozens that go unreported (though NORAD certainly knows about them)

It's a shame that Russia considers herself on quasi-war footing, but here we are. Will be interested to see how this resolves over the coming decades ... hope it's more Cold War II than Word War III.
I'm wondering what exactly is Putin's end game in all of this.Just to flex a little muscle or actually start the big one?
Almost 100% sure it's the bolded. He wants the US off his back over the Ukraine. And there are probably some trade concessions he wants.
Yeah, he's just wagging the dog a little lately. Nothing serious. I mean, it's not like he annexed part of another country or shot down a civilian aircraft or anything.
It's certainly serious. But he's not our enemy, and we don't need to treat this as a return to the Cold War.

 
tom22406 said:
Why Vladimir Putin isn't going to make peace

(CNN) -- The killing of 298 innocent people on board Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was a crime, a consequence of the war against Ukraine that Vladimir Putin started, and which he supplies, directs and controls. The Russian President bears full responsibility for this war, including the downing of the Malaysian airliner.

The main problem with our reaction to Russian aggression is not even the mildness of our sanctions, but the lack of clarity of their purpose. Our message to Putin is very confused. Do we want him completely out of Ukraine, or do we want his help in dealing with that country? They are two very different requests.

Despite Putin's offenses, Western leaders apparently still want him to play an active role in securing peace and stability. According to the White House, on July 17, "President Obama called on President Putin to take concrete steps to de-escalate the situation, including pressing separatists to agree to a cease-fire."


After the Malaysian airliner was shot down, German Chancellor Angela Merkel urged Putin to use his influence with the rebels to ensure a cease-fire. In recent appearances on several TV shows, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry asked Putin to take "immediate and clear action to reduce tensions in Ukraine," "to step up and make a difference," and "to use all his influence."

Despite their harsh words for Putin, leaders of the West still want his help. British Prime Minister David Cameron summed it up best when he said: "We sometimes behave as if we need Russia more than Russia needs us."

Putin is only too glad to put on sheep's clothing and assume the role of peacemaker that he has pretended to be throughout the war that he himself started. According to him, annexing Crimea, shooting down airplanes and supporting separatists has only one purpose: to protect the Ukrainian people from alleged right-wing extremists.

If you want Putin's help, beware of what you are asking. He would be glad to broker a "diplomatic solution" with the separatists, thus legitimizing his terrorists and entrenching them on Ukrainian territory.

If that option doesn't work, we can imagine the following completely different scenario: Russian tanks roll over Donetsk. Instead of supporting the separatists, Putin arrests leaders of the Donetsk republic and persecutes them for terrorizing the local population. Blaming the Ukrainian government for its inability to protect people from the terrorists, he establishes full control over the territory, and leaves Russian troops there to secure law, order and tranquility.

How would the world react to such a "peacekeeping mission"? Would the Ukrainian army fight Russian troops? Would Western political leaders accept this as a plausible option? I do not know. But what is more important, Putin doesn't know either. We should make very clear that we would not accept Putin as a peacekeeper and we want him out of Ukraine.

Western governments should not implicitly accept the aggressive doctrine called the "Russian World," which was endorsed by Putin, and which gives him the right to intervene into the affairs of virtually any sovereign nation, as he did in Ukraine, using the pretext of protecting Russian-speaking citizens.

The major concern of Western leaders is that by taking a strong stand against Putin, we may lose him as a useful partner in the world arena. We shouldn't worry about that. History clearly demonstrates that in all major international trouble spots in which we accepted Putin as our partner, Russia has always taken the side of the West's enemy. Such has been the case with Iraq, North Korea, Syria and Iran.

It was only natural for Putin to use any invitation on our part as an opportunity to damage us. One should not expect anything different from a person with the background of a KGB officer, for whom America always has been enemy No. 1, and for whom anti-Americanism is a pillar of his power.

If America is Russia's enemy, Putin's Russia cannot be our ally. Whether we like it or not, such relations are reciprocal. And from an enemy we do not need help. We need only check its aggression. For that purpose we should take the following steps:

1. Publicly recognize that Putin is not our ally or partner, but rather our foe, and make this position clear to him and to the rest of the world.

2. Ensure that our demands to Russia be absolutely clear. Stop supporting separatists in Ukraine. We do not need Putin as a broker or peacemaker. Putin must completely get out of Ukrainian territory and Ukrainian politics.

3. Make clear that Putin's help is not needed in any other part of the world. Exclude Russia as our partner or as a mediator from any international arrangements and negotiations.

4. Reiterate our position of not accepting the annexation of Crimea. Demand that it be returned to Ukraine.

5. Stop propagating Putin's propaganda. Instead, counter it with all the power of America's media. Expand broadcasts by Radio Liberty and other radio stations.

6. Make it clear that we consider the "Russian World" policy a threat to world peace and stability. Insist that Russia officially renounce that doctrine and repeal supporting legislation as necessary conditions for Russia's readmission to the community of civilized nations.
7. To stop aggression against Ukraine and to prevent aggressions against other countries, make Russia pay a high price by introducing sector and other serious economic sanctions. Be ready to accept the cost of those sanctions.

8. Take immediate steps to reduce that cost and any dependence on Russia. Develop new energy sources and transportation systems in America and Europe.

9. Provide help, including military assistance, to those who are under immediate attack or potential aggression by Russia.

10. Revisit communism, an ideology that remains important in Russia as well as other countries. Educate new generations about its atrocities and bankrupt ideology.

Opponents of strong action against an aggressor wrongly equate political confrontation with war. They believe that admitting that the second largest nuclear power is our enemy would usher in another Cold War and make the situation much more dangerous.


History teaches us, however, that to ignore reality and appease our enemy is a more dangerous approach than to clearly articulate our principles and disagreements.

When in 1983 the Soviets shot down Korean Air Lines Flight 007, Ronald Reagan denounced them as enemies of the United States and the entire world. Reagan's strong stand against the Soviet communism that threatened us for decades with nuclear war helped stop its expansion and eventually led to its complete capitulation. If we could stand against the mighty Soviet Union, we can manage Putin's much weaker Russia.

In February 2000, only two months into his presidency, Vladimir Putin presented one of his first state awards to Air Force Gen. Anatoly Kornukov. In 1983, Kornukov was commander of Sokol Airbase in Sakhalin. His order to the fighter pilot was: "Destroy the target!"

The target was Korean Air Lines Flight 007.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/07/opinion/yarim-agaev-putin-not-peacemaker/
That Op- Ed was written by a former Soviet Dissendent and member of the Hoover Institute. I strongly disagree with his position, and I'm hoping that Obama and our State Department does as well.

IMO, the United States faces 5 major threats in the world today (in no particular order): Islamist fundamentalism, economic populism, a dwindling supply of energy, the environment, and nuclear proliferation. In all 5 of these issues, we need Russia's help to either solve them or at least keep them under some kind of control.

We have spent the years since 1992 stupidly selling weapons to Russia's neighbors and attempting to isolate the Russians economically and otherwise. Is it any wonder they mistrust us, and regard us with hostility? Even so, they need us, and we need them.

 
timschochet said:
tom22406 said:
Doug B said:
Both sides are engaging in similar activity. I'd bet for every flight intercept we hear about, there are dozens that go unreported (though NORAD certainly knows about them)

It's a shame that Russia considers herself on quasi-war footing, but here we are. Will be interested to see how this resolves over the coming decades ... hope it's more Cold War II than Word War III.
I'm wondering what exactly is Putin's end game in all of this.Just to flex a little muscle or actually start the big one?
Almost 100% sure it's the bolded. He wants the US off his back over the Ukraine. And there are probably some trade concessions he wants.
Yeah, he's just wagging the dog a little lately. Nothing serious. I mean, it's not like he annexed part of another country or shot down a civilian aircraft or anything.
It's certainly serious. But he's not our enemy, and we don't need to treat this as a return to the Cold War.
When you start shooting down airliners and annexing other countries, you become everyone's enemy.

 
Putin's got nothin'. He does stuff like this because a sizable portion of our electorate and elected have in the past overreacted to this kind of chest puffing.

 
Putin's got nothin'. He does stuff like this because a sizable portion of our electorate and elected have in the past overreacted to this kind of chest puffing.
Maybe he could take another shirtless photo that seems to get the right all swoony in this country.

 
Rich, the airplane was a stupid accident and Putin is too stubborn to apologize for it. Nothing new in that. When Reagan was President, we shot down a Iranian passenger plane, and for months Reagan refused to acknowledge it. And when we finally did acknowledge it, Bush (then President) refused to apologize for it. Did that make us everyone's enemy?

As far as annexing other countries, we'll see. Eventually part of eastern Ukraine may very well be ceded over to Russia. I doubt anything else will happen.

 
Putin's got nothin'. He does stuff like this because a sizable portion of our electorate and elected have in the past overreacted to this kind of chest puffing.
Maybe he could take another shirtless photo that seems to get the right all swoony in this country.
It doea seem amazing to me that when you hear some conservatives talk about Putin, there is a tinge of admiration- they seem to prefer him to Obama...

 
Putin's got nothin'. He does stuff like this because a sizable portion of our electorate and elected have in the past overreacted to this kind of chest puffing.
Maybe he could take another shirtless photo that seems to get the right all swoony in this country.
It doea seem amazing to me that when you hear some conservatives talk about Putin, there is a tinge of admiration- they seem to prefer him to Obama...
Yep. They love them some dictator.

 
Putin's got nothin'. He does stuff like this because a sizable portion of our electorate and elected have in the past overreacted to this kind of chest puffing.
Maybe he could take another shirtless photo that seems to get the right all swoony in this country.
It doea seem amazing to me that when you hear some conservatives talk about Putin, there is a tinge of admiration- they seem to prefer him to Obama...
Yep. They love them some dictator.
Yeah, but they're not the only ones. Plenty of liberals in this country swooned over Hugo Chavez, and before him Daniel Ortega, and before him Fidel Castro. Those on the left don't mind a good leftist dictator when they see one.

 
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Rich, the airplane was a stupid accident and Putin is too stubborn to apologize for it. Nothing new in that. When Reagan was President, we shot down a Iranian passenger plane, and for months Reagan refused to acknowledge it. And when we finally did acknowledge it, Bush (then President) refused to apologize for it. Did that make us everyone's enemy?

As far as annexing other countries, we'll see. Eventually part of eastern Ukraine may very well be ceded over to Russia. I doubt anything else will happen.
Accident? You're literally the first person I've heard/read anywhere that's made that claim. Reagan and Bush were wrong to not acknowledge the mistake and apologize.

And no, regarding annexation, it's not "we'll see", it's already happened or did Crimea slip your memory?

 
Rich, the airplane was a stupid accident and Putin is too stubborn to apologize for it. Nothing new in that. When Reagan was President, we shot down a Iranian passenger plane, and for months Reagan refused to acknowledge it. And when we finally did acknowledge it, Bush (then President) refused to apologize for it. Did that make us everyone's enemy?

As far as annexing other countries, we'll see. Eventually part of eastern Ukraine may very well be ceded over to Russia. I doubt anything else will happen.
Accident? You're literally the first person I've heard/read anywhere that's made that claim. Reagan and Bush were wrong to not acknowledge the mistake and apologize.

And no, regarding annexation, it's not "we'll see", it's already happened or did Crimea slip your memory?
He was pretty adamant it would never happen.

 
Rich, the airplane was a stupid accident and Putin is too stubborn to apologize for it. Nothing new in that. When Reagan was President, we shot down a Iranian passenger plane, and for months Reagan refused to acknowledge it. And when we finally did acknowledge it, Bush (then President) refused to apologize for it. Did that make us everyone's enemy?

As far as annexing other countries, we'll see. Eventually part of eastern Ukraine may very well be ceded over to Russia. I doubt anything else will happen.
Accident? You're literally the first person I've heard/read anywhere that's made that claim. Reagan and Bush were wrong to not acknowledge the mistake and apologize.

And no, regarding annexation, it's not "we'll see", it's already happened or did Crimea slip your memory?
Was Crimea a country?

And as for the plane, unless you believe that the people who shot it down knew that it was a passenger plane and deliberately shot it down, then yes, it was an accident.

 
Fennis said:
tom22406 said:
Fennis said:
johnnycakes said:
So.. Putin is still eating 0bama's lunch?
The Russian economy is doing very poorly, perhaps showing sides of falling apart. If you call distracting the Russian people with fierce nationalism eating Obama's lunch... then yes.
It is really amazing the people love him so much

Russian President Vladimir Putin's approval ratings soared to an all-time high of 87% this week, leaving just 13% of his countrymen and women shaking their heads at the man who's helped send eastern Europe into crisis.

http://mashable.com/2014/08/06/putin-approval-rating/
I work with several Russians who are extremely supportive of what Putin is doing in Ukraine. Theses are people who left Russia, because of economic and political reasons, and in the past have spoken out against Putin. I don't think they really like the guy.

I think with the collapse of the Soviet Union all these tough Russians felt like a beaten dog and now they have a sense of being the tough guy with nationalistic pride again. And it appeals to them. Just my take...
Your take has an interesting parallel in the rise of Hitler, though to a lesser degree.

 
Look, if Russia actually does invade or forcibly annex eastern Ukraine, then yes we're going to have to treat them as a "cold" enemy. And if they move even further west and threaten western Ukraine or Poland or the Baltic region, then yes, we're going to have to treat them as a "werm" or "hot" enemy.

But we're not at that point yet, and it seems to me WAYYYY premature to jump the gun. We need to keep negotiating, try to stay on good terms (at least tradewise) and hope that Putin comes to his senses.

 
Fennis said:
tom22406 said:
Fennis said:
johnnycakes said:
So.. Putin is still eating 0bama's lunch?
The Russian economy is doing very poorly, perhaps showing sides of falling apart. If you call distracting the Russian people with fierce nationalism eating Obama's lunch... then yes.
It is really amazing the people love him so much

Russian President Vladimir Putin's approval ratings soared to an all-time high of 87% this week, leaving just 13% of his countrymen and women shaking their heads at the man who's helped send eastern Europe into crisis.

http://mashable.com/2014/08/06/putin-approval-rating/
I work with several Russians who are extremely supportive of what Putin is doing in Ukraine. Theses are people who left Russia, because of economic and political reasons, and in the past have spoken out against Putin. I don't think they really like the guy.

I think with the collapse of the Soviet Union all these tough Russians felt like a beaten dog and now they have a sense of being the tough guy with nationalistic pride again. And it appeals to them. Just my take...
Your take has an interesting parallel in the rise of Hitler, though to a lesser degree.
Sure, there are plenty of parallels in terms of how a population likes it when their leaders get tough and nationalistic- not just true of the Third Reich but historically almost always true. The public loves a leader until he starts losing. Hell, the Russians loved the Tsar until he lost World War I, even though they were miserable.

But there is a major difference between Hitler's day and today- nuclear weapons. The days of conquest are over. Even if Russia wanted to take over all of eastern Europe again, she could only go so far before she would be stopped by the threat of nuclear retaliation.

 
They've always done this - they sneak in right behind a commercial jet. They know just when to peel off to avoid the jets that scramble - probably from Eielson or Fort Rich.

 
So how is this Obama's fault? And I am willing to bet the US is doing the same thing, under the command of President Obama. But that is not being reported by the OP.

 
So how is this Obama's fault? And I am willing to bet the US is doing the same thing, under the command of President Obama. But that is not being reported by the OP.
Did you bother to read the entire article because if you did you would have seen this?

In a reminder that the surveillance is not one sided. a Russian fighter jet intercepted a U.S. spy plane in April about 60 miles off the coast of eastern Russia, in international airspace over the Sea of Okhotsk, north of Japan.
 
Fennis said:
tom22406 said:
Fennis said:
johnnycakes said:
So.. Putin is still eating 0bama's lunch?
The Russian economy is doing very poorly, perhaps showing sides of falling apart. If you call distracting the Russian people with fierce nationalism eating Obama's lunch... then yes.
It is really amazing the people love him so much

Russian President Vladimir Putin's approval ratings soared to an all-time high of 87% this week, leaving just 13% of his countrymen and women shaking their heads at the man who's helped send eastern Europe into crisis.

http://mashable.com/2014/08/06/putin-approval-rating/
I work with several Russians who are extremely supportive of what Putin is doing in Ukraine. Theses are people who left Russia, because of economic and political reasons, and in the past have spoken out against Putin. I don't think they really like the guy.

I think with the collapse of the Soviet Union all these tough Russians felt like a beaten dog and now they have a sense of being the tough guy with nationalistic pride again. And it appeals to them. Just my take...
Your take has an interesting parallel in the rise of Hitler, though to a lesser degree.
Sure, there are plenty of parallels in terms of how a population likes it when their leaders get tough and nationalistic- not just true of the Third Reich but historically almost always true. The public loves a leader until he starts losing. Hell, the Russians loved the Tsar until he lost World War I, even though they were miserable.

But there is a major difference between Hitler's day and today- nuclear weapons. The days of conquest are over. Even if Russia wanted to take over all of eastern Europe again, she could only go so far before she would be stopped by the threat of nuclear retaliation.
I was speaking of appealing to a once proud people who have felt morally defeated having a charismatic leader appeal to their nationalism and pride. A proven formula most notably used by Hitler, but also by many others. I was not in any manner predicting a geopolitical situation analogous to that time.

One might wonder if America has similar seeds out there right now. What might germinate, and would we recognize the pattern or be swept along, unable to properly view ourselves. Accurate observation from within system parameters being difficult and all. I think some wild haired guy named Al ounce postulated about this.

 
I wonder if Sarah Palin could see them or their chemtrails from her home in Wasilla. Probably not. She would have to take time away from preparing for her next divisive blurt.

 
I wonder if Sarah Palin could see them or their chemtrails from her home in Wasilla. Probably not. She would have to take time away from preparing for her next divisive blurt.
As Putin rears his head and comes into the airspace of the United States of America, where do they go? It’s Alaska. It’s just right over the border. It is from Alaska that we send those out to make sure that an eye is being kept on this very powerful nation, Russia, because they are right there, they are right next to our state
 
Translation of right-wingers in thread: ALL OBUMMER'S FAULT MITTENS WUZ RIGHT

Oof. :lmao: These flights and exercises happen constantly. Talk to a member of the military. They're being reported now to feed the media's fear narrative. Next, we'll get a report that a Russian attack sub shadowed one of our SSBNs and somebody will start a thread here praising Romney (who knows nothing, zero, about foreign policy) and laughably claiming that he's some Nostradamus who knows more about geopolitics than a former U.S. Senator/SECRETARY OF STATE. Amazingly ignorant.

 

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