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Lesean McCoy? How concerned are we?

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24 minutes ago, Payne said:

I can read an article. That doesn't change my opinion. I don't recall McCoy ever being accused of poor pass protection. 

Uh, just by his current coach - in that article. Carry on then.

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What is Shady's value going forward?  Are the 3 backs still ranked Damien, Shady, Darrel?

I just got offered Diggs and McCoy for Kerryon and Desean Jackson.

If McCoy still solidly in the committee this may be something I want to do.

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1 hour ago, theToes said:

What is Shady's value going forward?  Are the 3 backs still ranked Damien, Shady, Darrel?

I just got offered Diggs and McCoy for Kerryon and Desean Jackson.

If McCoy still solidly in the committee this may be something I want to do.

Don't do that.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, theToes said:

What is Shady's value going forward?  Are the 3 backs still ranked Damien, Shady, Darrel?

I just got offered Diggs and McCoy for Kerryon and Desean Jackson.

If McCoy still solidly in the committee this may be something I want to do.

I'm not a big Kerryon fan and think McCoy is far and away their best runner but I wouldn't do that. Andy seems like to like the Damien's receiving ability and tremendous 1.8 YPC he brings to the table even after missing multiple games. Despite Diggs complaints, MN would be dumb to go away from Cook/Mattison.

Jackson has played one full game this year (10 targets).......and better game than anything Diggs has put together over 5. Diggs has seen more than 4 targets in only 2 of 5 games.

And I was big on both Diggs and McCoy coming into the year. Hopeful their situations turn around but Kerryon has a solid every week role right now.

Edited by Craig_MiamiFL

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2 hours ago, Payne said:

I can read an article. That doesn't change my opinion. I don't recall McCoy ever being accused of poor pass protection. 

 

2 hours ago, Ketamine Dreams said:

Uh, just by his current coach - in that article. Carry on then.

Many of us were paying enough attention to have an opinion over whether his fumble was sloppy or not.  So far, no comments on if his missed assignment(s) were sloppy or not.  I don't recall seeing any, and was surprised to hear from Andy that reason to bench him.  I just watch as a fan.  Any of you analytics-types or game film reviewers catch something I missed?

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3 hours ago, wormburner said:

 

 

Many of us were paying enough attention to have an opinion over whether his fumble was sloppy or not.  So far, no comments on if his missed assignment(s) were sloppy or not.  I don't recall seeing any, and was surprised to hear from Andy that reason to bench him.  I just watch as a fan.  Any of you analytics-types or game film reviewers catch something I missed?

I read the whole thing as Reid is trying to light a little fire under McCoy.   Fumble was a great play by the defense IMO.   I've read in here though that McCoy was holding it sloppy.  I don't agree but it is what it is.

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36 minutes ago, irishidiot said:

I read the whole thing as Reid is trying to light a little fire under McCoy.   Fumble was a great play by the defense IMO.   I've read in here though that McCoy was holding it sloppy.  I don't agree but it is what it is.

Right on.  Everybody saw the fumble and had their take on it.  Other than Andy's comment, nobody seems to have seen the missed pass protection assignments.  I'll be starting McCoy in the flex again this weekend, hopefully you're right about a fire being lit!

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McCoy has been a tough cookie to own.

I have 3 decent running backs in front of him so he’s been hard to start based on both gut and rankings, although at times he’s put up more points a few weeks than some of my backs.

But, he’s also been impossible to trade. Even for WR2.  

This last game doesn’t help that.  But I think everyone is having a tough time seeing starting RB value out of him.

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1 hour ago, VikingFrog said:

McCoy has been a tough cookie to own.

I have 3 decent running backs in front of him so he’s been hard to start based on both gut and rankings, although at times he’s put up more points a few weeks than some of my backs.

But, he’s also been impossible to trade. Even for WR2.  

This last game doesn’t help that.  But I think everyone is having a tough time seeing starting RB value out of him.

I have both McCoy and Darrel W.  There was a sell-high window (perhaps packaged together?) after Week 4 that I think I could have taken advantage of.  I don't know now if I'm waiting for that window to open again and sell, or wait for Andy to come to his senses and ride this train till the wheels fall off. 

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37 minutes ago, wormburner said:

I have both McCoy and Darrel W.  There was a sell-high window (perhaps packaged together?) after Week 4 that I think I could have taken advantage of.  I don't know now if I'm waiting for that window to open again and sell, or wait for Andy to come to his senses and ride this train till the wheels fall off. 

I was able to package both for Julio Jones just before the window closed. 

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Posted (edited)

Andy Reid roundup: five takeaways from the Chiefs head coach

The question about McCoy occurs at around the 9 minute mark of the embedded video.

In regards to if McCoy was benched because of his fumble. Andy says they had McCoy in there after the fumble, he asks if the reporter saw that? That wasn't it Reid says. . He does say there were a couple of little things in there, we will get that straight as far as protection that they will work on and take care of.

Reading into his comments it seems there were a couple times where he didn't think McCoy knew his assignment as far as their rules about who to pick up in pass protection. Maybe he wanted McCoy to pick up a different player after an audible or something.

What Reid does not say, but I have heard from other coaches before, is that they want to find plays during the game where they can rest their players and put them in a position to win. Some times that means not asking them to block huge defenders too much. There is always an option of releasing the RB into a route instead of pass protection and I am guessing this has been the case with Andy and McCoy for most of his career. They would rather make him an option as a receiver than to have him block.

Not sure if the information goes back far enough, but it might be interesting to look at how often McCoy has been asked to block in his career compared to running a route. We would have to go back pretty far on that for when McCoy was with Reid and the Eagles. I will see if I can find anything on that.

Damien Williams is an excellent blocker. He was being used as a H back and TE in Miami when their other guys were injured and he excels in that role. It may actually be his best trait. Andy likes to throw the ball so Williams being able to do that so well is valuable to him, even if Damien isn't the best runner.

Edited by Biabreakable
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2 minutes ago, wormburner said:

Good info, thanks.  I don't know if this helps us with the pecking order, but at least it doesn't sound like McCoy is in Andy's dog house.

I always find it a bit better to listen to the coach and their tone and demeanor about something that you cant get from a quote.

KC did lose their left tackle Fisher to injury recently. Maybe they need the backs to protect more because of that, or just because of how the Colts were pressuring them.

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1 minute ago, Biabreakable said:

I always find it a bit better to listen to the coach and their tone and demeanor about something that you cant get from a quote.

Yes, your link cleared up the speculation.  Thinking that McCoy had been benched for missing assignments that none of us saw seemed harsh.  This makes sense, and keeps hope alive!

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So I was googling McCoy and pass protection and I am getting the sense that this has been an area of weakness for him, even when he was in his prime.

An example of that

Quote

"McCoy was kept in to block 92 times this season, and earned a pass-blocking grade of 37.1 -- the worst mark of any running back in the NFL. On those 92 snaps, he allowed 13 total QB pressures. McCoy was certainly in the conversation in the latter stages of the list, and would be among the next few names to go on it, but was ultimately kept off by his blocking performance."

This is in 2016 when McCoy was still in his prime and playing at a very high level.

I don't think blocking is his thing.

McCoy played on 646 offensive snaps in the 2016 season. So only 14% of the time.

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Fisher's out, and MaMVP is gimpy. Makes perfect sense to me to limit the snaps of the guy that appears to be by far the worst pass protector, especially in a game where they fall behind. And the fumble certainly didn't help.

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19 minutes ago, LawFitz said:

Fisher's out, and MaMVP is gimpy. Makes perfect sense to me to limit the snaps of the guy that appears to be by far the worst pass protector, especially in a game where they fall behind. And the fumble certainly didn't help.

So let me ask you ex-player (I'm not) tactician types this question:

As lousy as the Chiefs played, they were never out of this game, they didn't have to stop doing what they supposedly do well.  So why keep their best pass protection RB in the game if he is one-dimensional and it costs them more aggressive offense, possibly offsetting the pass rush?  I know the fumble sucked, but McCoy's early screen passes success seemed part of the blueprint to help keep Indy's pass rushers on their heels.  It got to the point they were just pinning their ears back and going for it because Damien was waiting in the backfield instead of McCoy or Darrel in the flats. 

It's late and I'm just trying to make conversation.  Sorry if this is a stupid football question, but the tactical side to decision making in play calling is interesting to me.

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Wormburner you are absolutely right that when a team leaves a RB in to help pass protect and the defense wants to blitz, they will just send one more pass rusher.

For a defender who has the RB as their coverage assignment in man to man (usual coverage when blitzing) and the RB stays in to block that defender will rush instead of covering.

Screens and other constraint plays are meant to take advantage of the blitz and to get the defense to not be willing to take those risks as often (less blitzing).

Similarly when teams turtle up with 2 or more TE it invites more pass rushers into the play when that TE is their assignment but they are blocking.

Going back to your previous question about what this means for the KC RB and their utilization.

McCoy better suited for 1st and 2nd downs than plays where they may need the RB to stay in and block.

When the RB stays in to block if no defender rushes then after their check they will go out on a route if protection is good giving them the opportunity to catch the ball, usually against a zone coverage and delayed release into their route.

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13 hours ago, Ketamine Dreams said:

Eh idk, maybe  put it close to your body, and another arm around it as you become surrounded by people trying to tackle you? 

This is really dismissive. It's sort of like you have an interest in pulling for a different guy.

Actually, you being at the game gives you a worse view than the millions of people that got the best replay angles in slow motion.

IDK, sounds like you're a bit clueless on this one. HTH. 

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Thanks for breaking it down, Biabreakable.  I know that having watched a gazillion hours of football since I was a kid, but not played, makes me no more than an armchair quarterback, which means nothing.  Other than frequently observing that a strong pass rush can be countered, or at least slowed down.  KC has the talented players to do this, I guess I'm a little frustrated seeing Andy (again) caught flat footed in his response.

Take care!  :) 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, rockaction said:

This is really dismissive. It's sort of like you have an interest in pulling for a different guy.

Actually, you being at the game gives you a worse view than the millions of people that got the best replay angles in slow motion.

IDK, sounds like you're a bit clueless on this one. HTH. 

It doesn’t, and talk about being dismissive and clueless.  🙄 They showed it multiple times at different speeds on the big screen. It was poor ball security, but go ahead and assume you know everything. 

Edited by Ketamine Dreams

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36 minutes ago, Ketamine Dreams said:

It doesn’t, and talk about being dismissive and clueless.  🙄 They showed it multiple times at different speeds on the big screen. It was poor ball security, but go ahead and assume you know everything. 

I wish they had an I'm rubber and you're glue emoticon

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On 10/8/2019 at 8:58 PM, I Am the Stig said:

I was able to package both for Julio Jones just before the window closed. 

I wanted to come back to this and give you props for selling high after that Week 4 window. The problem in KC isn’t a RBBC, it’s that their running game blows. 53 yards on the ground today. 

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34 minutes ago, wormburner said:

I wanted to come back to this and give you props for selling high after that Week 4 window. The problem in KC isn’t a RBBC, it’s that their running game blows. 53 yards on the ground today. 

8 rush attempts by their lead back.  Any reid never learns.

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Quote

 

@PFF

: LeSean McCoy- 27 Damien Williams- 21 Darrel Williams- 7

 

Today's snap counts.

KC REALLY needs to commit to running the football if they want any chance of doing anything this season. They're getting destroyed in TOP and defense is just getting gashed. Shady looks good running the football. They just aren't committing to running it period. 

Real smack in the face to get absolutely streamrolled by the RB you cut. 

Revenge

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3 minutes ago, Craig_MiamiFL said:

Today's snap counts.

KC REALLY needs to commit to running the football if they want any chance of doing anything this season. They're getting destroyed in TOP and defense is just getting gashed. Shady looks good running the football. They just aren't committing to running it period. 

Real smack in the face to get absolutely streamrolled by the RB you cut. 

Revenge

Andy being Andy

🤷‍♂️

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8 hours ago, Smack Tripper said:

Droppable.... looks like a square peg in a round hole with this offense

Disagree. Perhaps droppable but he looks fine in the offense. It's just that KC doesn't run the ball and when they do they split it 3 ways. The only positive is that he gets the majority of those carries. The negative is that the majority only comes to 8.

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8 hours ago, Craig_MiamiFL said:

Today's snap counts.

KC REALLY needs to commit to running the football if they want any chance of doing anything this season. They're getting destroyed in TOP and defense is just getting gashed. Shady looks good running the football. They just aren't committing to running it period. 

Real smack in the face to get absolutely streamrolled by the RB you cut. 

Revenge

Reid can draw up a great O but he cannot actually run an O.   It's why KC isn't going to win anything of meaning unless Reid wakes up.    He has a great team but is blinded by his shiny toy Mahomes and that passing game.   

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Andy is both a slow learner and a chronic amnesiac.  Last week he learned that Damien Williams is their third best runner.  This week he will learn that he needs to run more.  As such, I predict Shady posts the following stat line next week at Denver:

13 carries for 55 yards and 1 TD

4 receptions for 38 yards and 0 TDs

KC will win 31 to 21 and all will be right for 1 week UNTIL Andy forgets....and Andy ALWAYS forgets. 

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1 hour ago, DocHolliday said:

Reid can draw up a great O but he cannot actually run an O.   It's why KC isn't going to win anything of meaning unless Reid wakes up.    He has a great team but is blinded by his shiny toy Mahomes and that passing game.   

Lol, you are right but this isn't anything new with Andy Reid.  He could fall in love with the passing game if he had Luke Falk.  He IS who we thought he was.  

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2 hours ago, DocHolliday said:

Reid can draw up a great O but he cannot actually run an O.   It's why KC isn't going to win anything of meaning unless Reid wakes up.    He has a great team but is blinded by his shiny toy Mahomes and that passing game.   

I am going to start by saying I completely agree. This always seems to be the case with Reid.

With that being said, if you or I had Mahomes and hill and Watkins and Kelsey and those young wrs, what exactly would we do?  Probably the same thing Reid does and try to use our best resources to win. And with KC, they Need to strike fast and often because they need their pourous defense to be taken off the hook and not have to play run D while the other team is in catch-up mode.  

I don't k ow what the answer is because I agree with what you said but let's face it, if this team WAS balanced and they were putting up 24-30 a game, we would have a sector of media and fans blasting them for wasting their talent.  "Let Mahomes do his thing...he's got all those weapons.  Why do they waste time grinding out 4 yards at a time?  He's holding them back". Can't you just hear that right now?

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The best way to take pressure off your defense is to run the ball. Shady has been averaging good numbers per carry. Just not many carries to be had. 

He drops Mahomes back 40 times a game and then complains about pass protection. Running the ball a little more will help that too.

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Reid has a history of only getting his teams so far. Why? Simply bad football 101 ball control. He is not great at managing games...tight games that require patience in the running game. He is one of the worst big game/post season coaches I have ever seen. He can get them there but can never finish the job. Now it all does not come down to just him. Players have to execute. But so many times I have seen his play calling and lack of commitment to ball control cost him games. 

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3 hours ago, KingPrawn said:

Disagree. Perhaps droppable but he looks fine in the offense. It's just that KC doesn't run the ball and when they do they split it 3 ways. The only positive is that he gets the majority of those carries. The negative is that the majority only comes to 8.

He's  bit of a grinder at this stage of his game in an offense that wants to be more up tempo.  Where I'm at with him is, where I'm at with Duke Johnson, why did you go out of your way to get the guy if you didn't want to feature him.  I think the likely deal is, its the end of the line for Shady and maybe Andy didn't see that until they got him in.

In the end, I think Hyde would have been a far better fit if KC just held him

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Agree with the takes on Reid. He had the same problem with Hunt his rookie year. He'd completely abandon the run game in competitive games, their passing game would get curbstomped and he'd be saying at the podium that they need to get their running game going. So dumb. 

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1 hour ago, Smack Tripper said:

He's  bit of a grinder at this stage of his game in an offense that wants to be more up tempo.  Where I'm at with him is, where I'm at with Duke Johnson, why did you go out of your way to get the guy if you didn't want to feature him.  I think the likely deal is, its the end of the line for Shady and maybe Andy didn't see that until they got him in.

In the end, I think Hyde would have been a far better fit if KC just held him

McCoy has looked good every chance he has been given. Think it's more about Reid then it is Shady. I think Hyde would have been great too.

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3 minutes ago, Ketamine Dreams said:

He was just dropped in my main redraft league. PPR

I plan on dropping him as soon as I find something better.   Even a RB in a two headed RBBC will be better than the mess in KC.   You can't start him

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12 minutes ago, Ketamine Dreams said:

He was just dropped in my main redraft league. PPR

I'll give Andy one more week, and the risk of three straight losses, to prove he's as smart as he thinks he is.

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31 minutes ago, Ketamine Dreams said:

He was just dropped in my main redraft league. PPR

He's next on my chopping block in 12 teamer.

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I finally traded him in redraft.

Haven’t started him once. 

Really just a throw away piece in a 2 for 1 trade for me. WR1 and McCoy for WR1, but the guy needed a beating heart at RB so it worked out.

Been trying to save him all season. Glad I finally got him off my roster.

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Gotta start McCoy or Sanders tonight due to bye weeks.

I'm a serious underdog.

Any opinions?

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4 minutes ago, need2know said:

Gotta start McCoy or Sanders tonight due to bye weeks.

I'm a serious underdog.

Any opinions?

Yikes. McCoy? Maybe he gets a couple of receiving TDs with some big yardage? That's tough man.

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9 minutes ago, need2know said:

Gotta start McCoy or Sanders tonight due to bye weeks.

I'm a serious underdog.

Any opinions?

Sanders vs that defense seems like a no-brainer here

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32 minutes ago, shadyridr said:

Sanders vs that defense seems like a no-brainer here

im thinking if sanders plays which it sounds like he will i have to go with him

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So with mahomes out. Does Andy play it close and switch up his strategy i.e. Running more, swing plays,....? What's his pattern ?

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23 minutes ago, Skeletore Eh said:

To me, mccoy clearly looks like their best rb

That doesn't matter to Reid

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