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Merged Spygate thread (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Buffaloes
- Start date
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
Hi Anarchy,
I would love to move on, but there are fact challenged books being peddled and threads being started based on rumor and innuendo. I do not think for a moment the Patriots can be exonerated, spygate will forever be a stain on their legacy. However, can't we have one, just one thread where we try to stick to the facts without all the emotion, rumor and innuendo?
Why can't we discuss this topic and be excellent to one and other? If someone is "tired" of the subject I encourage them to ignore the thread; I'm looking for passionate and fair discussion of a subject that I and many others care about.
Do you think the question "what pre 2006 rule did they break?" is not a fair and relevant question?
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
They are professionals who do their job and do it well. I don't know what "classy" means, I think its like the old "i know it when I see it" thing, but I would not call them a classy. I wouldn't say they're classless, but maybe class neutral. There is nothing exemplary about what they do. If its something to do with conduct or off the field presentation, Belichek is rude in dealing with the media (and thus by proxy fans), Kraft has a trophy girlfriend within months of his wifes death and Brady left his pregnant girlfriend.
To me, classy means an extra credit level of excellence or kindness.
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
Taking the team out of it, thinking logically, if there was nothing to be seen on the tapes in question, do you think a coach, who just saw their reputation and status spike to the top of his profession, would not have fought a $500,000 fine and the attack on his reputation if the tapes showed nothing.
If the tapes showed nothing, would the league have destroyed the tapes?
Personally, I can't logcially give any benefit of the doubt on at least the spygate element of things.
Dizzy
Footballguy
Agreed, everyone on either side of this should be over it by now. Oh wait... I keep forgetting, professional football is supposed to be a game.
OK for business' to cheat to gain that edge though.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
The majority of people left this in the rear view mirror in 2007. The fervent few that are still wanting to debate this issue 7 years later are the ones who would not be swayed after all this time, so starting a new thread is only going to attract the haters and the zealots. So to answer your question, you will not be embarking on a fair and relevant discussion. You are only fueling more animosity among people that will not consider any opinion but their own. At this point, there won't be a calm and sensible dialogue.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
So we again came to the conclusion that the Pats cheated. It is time to move on. It is not like their SB wins will be taken away so the conversation does not matter.
Koya
Footballguy
Except a number of those called racist actually are and many "haters" actually Harbor no ill will toward a team but rather point out certain failings.
Oh, and then have a blast with the hilarious responses and oversensitivity.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I don't really know what all the arguing is about, but I'm sure you'll get it figured out. Regardless of what anyone else thinks, I've had more fun being a patriots fan than any other fanbase since 1993. We had Parcells, Carroll and belichick, all hall of famers, and belichick arguably the best coach of all time. Bledsoe was awesome to watch but Brady is arguably the greatest qb of all time. They've had record setting seasons, both individual and team. We've had our share of controversy, but mostly a good group of guys. They've managed to somehow emerge as an underdog year after year, then win when you couldn't imagine how. If a win nothing Jets or bills fan, a manning apologist colts fan, and a miserable giants fan want to pretend they're glad they were born in a crappy football town, go ahead. Doesn't bother me if you really really really believe my team doesn't deserve a title from years ago. Keep hanging on to that, it's the best thing going for your teams right now.
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
Hi Anarchy, I understand that maybe it isn't possible, but if nothing else I hope we can enlighten a few as to what the actual facts are and those who don't care about the facts ("not consider any opinion but their own" etc) will show themselves for what they are (on both sides).
If "be excellent to one and other" means anything, it might be possible.
FTR, you didn't answer my question, Do you think the question "what pre 2006 rule did they break?" is not a fair and relevant question?
Won't be able to post until the end of the day, but I will respond to anyone interested in a civil discussion about the facts and what they mean.
Koya
Footballguy
pizzatyme
Footballguy
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
Love your passion BF and I have enjoyed many, many of your posts. In this case I am asking you and other passionate Pats fans to put your emotions aside in this thread. I know it isn't easy and I am as guilty as anyone ever was of letting my emotions get the best of me, but I really want to try and be dispassionate.
As a favor to me, I beg you and other Pats fans, don't allow yourself to be goaded into name calling other fans, assigning motives etc. Not here, not this time; that is just what so many want.
Painful as it is to admit, Spygate is and always will be a stain on the Pats legacy, the question in my mind is how much of a stain is it really. I am not afraid to stick to the facts and have a rational discussion about it. You don't have to agree with me, but as a fellow fan I beg you to ignore the thread or stay on topic and play by the rules (no name calling, no rumors, stick to the facts and above all ignore the haters who have nothing factual to add) if you want to post in the thread. If it turns into a food fight we lose by default..................
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Koya
Footballguy
Really? Maybe frustration - and understandable - but the root cause is not even the legitimate clouds over some of the Pats actions but the inane and fishing inducing predictable behaviora by many Pats fans.A whole lot of anger in this post. But, whatever makes you feel better I guess.
cstu
Footballguy
Exactly. Belichick paid the fine without a single argument. He knew he did something illegal (using video to record signs) and accepted the consequences.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Lol. Anger about what? I've lived a charmed life as a fan. The patriots have been to 7 superbowls and won 3 in my lifetime. That won't happen for most teams in a hundred years, literally. I used to have angst. I get that you still do and I wish you the best of luck with the Colts. I like Andrew luck a lot and i think you guys are going to win a few titles with him. Maybe then you'll understand the whole manning thing.A whole lot of anger in this post. But, whatever makes you feel better I guess.
The muddy and emotional topic of Spygate... things I still don't really know:
1. Was (is) using video cameras during a game illegal?
Commentary has been made that it was (is) legal but only in designated areas? I don't really understand this if it's true - why does it matter where you record from?
This, to me, is the defining issue of Spygate - if taping was legal (regardless of where the videographer stands) I don't understand the magnitude of it all. The issue seems more about Belichick's arrogance and defiance of Goodell.
If video cameras were illegal - then it is a pretty egregious offense. I would like to understand more about what was being done with the footage - how/when was it being used.
2. Did the Patriots record the Rams walk-thru?
I don't know if this is a fact or myth. It was reported that they did, but then retracted? Marshall Faulk, to this day, believes NE cheated him out of a SuperBowl. New England was never charged and penalized for this? Why? This would be on par with Shoeless Joe Jackson fixing the World Series.
1. Was (is) using video cameras during a game illegal?
Commentary has been made that it was (is) legal but only in designated areas? I don't really understand this if it's true - why does it matter where you record from?
This, to me, is the defining issue of Spygate - if taping was legal (regardless of where the videographer stands) I don't understand the magnitude of it all. The issue seems more about Belichick's arrogance and defiance of Goodell.
If video cameras were illegal - then it is a pretty egregious offense. I would like to understand more about what was being done with the footage - how/when was it being used.
2. Did the Patriots record the Rams walk-thru?
I don't know if this is a fact or myth. It was reported that they did, but then retracted? Marshall Faulk, to this day, believes NE cheated him out of a SuperBowl. New England was never charged and penalized for this? Why? This would be on par with Shoeless Joe Jackson fixing the World Series.
Workhorse
Footballguy
Whether you love or hate the guy, the eventual Bill Belichick autobiography post-retirement will be a must read.
Hoss Style
Footballguy
I don't understand the "get over it" rhetoric.
Now more than ever it's a great time to look at past dealings of Goodell. "Rumors" as so many call them, are more believable now than they ever were. If Goodell hadn't botched the handling of Spygate then it wouldn't be such a big issue. Goodell's word has the strength of a wet napkin.
I'm not interested in this because I hate the Pats. I'm interested in this because it screams of another cover up by Goodell. Like I said earlier - poor Pats fans have to deal with all of Goodell's stench, whether they did anything wrong or not.
If the Post runs an article about Goodell and some rumor about how he mishandled the Saints fiasco, I wouldn't be "over that" either. His past actions are more relevant now than ever, and unfortunately, the Pats scandal is one of Goodell's marks of note. The way he handled the evidence, the questions about what happened and size of the punishment he laid down all lead to a lot of muddied waters.
Now more than ever it's a great time to look at past dealings of Goodell. "Rumors" as so many call them, are more believable now than they ever were. If Goodell hadn't botched the handling of Spygate then it wouldn't be such a big issue. Goodell's word has the strength of a wet napkin.
I'm not interested in this because I hate the Pats. I'm interested in this because it screams of another cover up by Goodell. Like I said earlier - poor Pats fans have to deal with all of Goodell's stench, whether they did anything wrong or not.
If the Post runs an article about Goodell and some rumor about how he mishandled the Saints fiasco, I wouldn't be "over that" either. His past actions are more relevant now than ever, and unfortunately, the Pats scandal is one of Goodell's marks of note. The way he handled the evidence, the questions about what happened and size of the punishment he laid down all lead to a lot of muddied waters.
Hoss Style
Footballguy
Just wanted to add to this - There's 2 full 45 minute episodes (Parts I & II) on NFL Now with inside access to Belichick. It's a fluff piece, but it's a pretty good watch.
pizzatyme
Footballguy
No angst here my man. My point is, if you don't have anything nice to say, why say anything? That paints you in a corner.Lol. Anger about what? I've lived a charmed life as a fan. The patriots have been to 7 superbowls and won 3 in my lifetime. That won't happen for most teams in a hundred years, literally. I used to have angst. I get that you still do and I wish you the best of luck with the Colts. I like Andrew luck a lot and i think you guys are going to win a few titles with him. Maybe then you'll understand the whole manning thing.A whole lot of anger in this post. But, whatever makes you feel better I guess.
parrot
Footballguy
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
"Fishing inducing" behavior. Lol. Fishing is fishing and trolling is trolling.
Koya
Footballguy
In my defense, these are Pats fans we're talking about. Someone has to play the bad cop.
Dondante
Footballguy
Green and Gold
Footballguy
I guess you meant to say, "It shows because once caught they have won ZERO SUPERBOWLS since."
Here is how they ended each season after they cheated:
2007: Lost Superbowl
2008: Missed Playoffs
2009: Lost Wildcard
2010: Lost Divisional Round
2011: Lost Superbowl
2012: Lost Conference Championship
2013: Lost Conference Champtionship
They definitely didn't win the superbowl, no doubt, but making it at least as far as the penultimate game in 4 of the 7 years isn't exactly doing nothing.
JoeyJoeJoeJrShabadoo
Footballguy
What a garbage thread. This belongs in the FFA forum
Koya
Footballguy
We FFAers prefer to antagonise over zealous Pats fans and the associated passing contests here in the pool
FFA is for serious business.
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
Hi TD,
1. As far as I know (afaik), using a camera to record during a game is\was legal from certain locations (but not others) and it is done all the time with the caveat that the info can't be used during the game. Afaik, stealing signals is\was legal and stealing signals using a camera was not specifically outlawed until the Sept 6th memorandum from the NFL. This is what I believe to be fact, though I could be wrong and have invited any and all to try and prove otherwise. This is the relevant section of the Operations Manual, again afaik.
2. The taping of the Rams walk through is a myth (much like the Flutie helmet myth) there is not a scintilla of real evidence to support the Rams walk through allegation.
These are facts as I know them to be, but I am willing to listen to anyone who has factual evidence to the contrary (IE, rumor and heresay need not apply).
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Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Dondante
Footballguy
This is such a joke. Oh, so you'll only listen to those who were there? Got it. I'm not sure why you've taken it upon yourself to be the hall monitor for Spygate Revisited, but it's pretty sad. Patriot’s fans were about as ####ty as fans get during the SB run. Now it has been 10 years since the cheating was exposed and those same ####ty fans are still as sensitive as ever about Spygate. That should tell you all you need to know about how this situation (is there even a situation anymore?), people like you and the Patriots are perceived these days.
They won 3 titles. You should be happy about that. They cheated to get them. Nobody can prove otherwise – not to the good or to the bad.
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
To clarify
I am willing to listen to anyone who has factual evidence to the contrary of what I have said.
I never said or implied that contrary evidence had to be firsthand knowledge, only that it had to be verifiably true (factual).
I am willing to listen to anyone who has factual evidence to the contrary of what I have said.
I never said or implied that contrary evidence had to be firsthand knowledge, only that it had to be verifiably true (factual).
Buffaloes
Footballguy
Franknbeans
Footballguy
Can we all just agree that the Patriots are guilty of unspeakable crimes against humanity?
Koya
Footballguy
If you include the provision that their fans are even worse, I'm in.
Kraft excluded. He's cool.
Pots
Footballguy
You are commissioner of the NFL in charge of keeping it popular and a great money maker. What happens to the popularity and public opinion of your sport if it turns out that one of your most popular franchises at the time cheated to win at least one of their Super Bowls. Now what happens when you take and bury any evidence of it and hope it goes away? He doesn't care who won the Super Bowl, he doesn't care how it was done, he just cares about public opinion of the organization he's managing and exposing anything that could be considered cheating in the championship game questions the legitimacy of the competitive sport as a whole. Basically doing the 'right' thing hurts their image more than pretending it never happened.TD Ryan said:
cstu
Footballguy
What I disagree with is that it was ever legal to video signals. While it wasn't explicitly stated in the rules I do believe it was common knowledge that it wasn't allowed. Hence the memo sent that specifically mentioned it. However, the most important point is that Belichick ignored the memo and continued as usual.NE_REVIVAL said:
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Smack Tripper
Footballguy
I agree, and my own thoughts in addition, the get over it has been gotten. Nothing is undoing anything. And much like when you strip an NCAA title, you don't strip the emotions of the moment.Hoss Style said:
But the flip side, that should not go unsaid, or unrealized, is that, at a bare minimum in the extremely likely case that a so-so Pats team somehow stopped a juggernaut when they were videotaping the rams bowl, not only did you steal the joy of fans, you may have stolen legacies.
Kurt Warner, with a second ring, is a slam dunk HOFer.
Mike Martz's career is seen in a different light.
As the legacy of Reid and McNabb in philly.
Or Fox all together.
Or the fans of Philly and Carolina who never had a bowl New England deems so precious.
Saying nothing of anyone that was beaten in the AFC.
New England may have won without this nonsense. But they may not have. They have to live with that.
Their fans don't have to give anything back. But other fans don't have to give them any credit.
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
bostonfred
Footballguy
That's what I mean. Obviously people hate you. But you guys don't care about the refs blowing calls, or whether your quarterback raped anyone, or whether those older teams popped roids like tic tacs. You just point to the banners. Let the haters hate. I get it, and I dig that about you.
SWC
Bromigo
in the end brohans you are all just chasing the guy that the trophy is named after and the team he coached so go on with your cute little bed time stories about how you did not cheat and do not have to give anything back like old vince says winning is not a sometimes thing it is an all the time thing and you do not do things right once in a while you do them right all the time yep he said that and how appropriate that the jboys in the thread are arguing about they will let the haters hate and all that well if you ask me anyone who would celebrate winning because of cheating does not hear what vince says and probably should listen when he says the quality of of a persons life is their commitment to excellence no matter what there chose endeavor either you are a winner or you are someone who is ok with cheating to win but make no mistake brohans they are not the same thing take that to the bank fellow fans of the real bromerican teamThat's what I mean. Obviously people hate you. But you guys don't care about the refs blowing calls, or whether your quarterback raped anyone, or whether those older teams popped roids like tic tacs. You just point to the banners. Let the haters hate. I get it, and I dig that about you.
pizzatyme
Footballguy
Nope. I, for one, don't hate the Steelers or their fans. I also don't have an asterisk by any of their championships.That's what I mean. Obviously people hate you. But you guys don't care about the refs blowing calls, or whether your quarterback raped anyone, or whether those older teams popped roids like tic tacs. You just point to the banners. Let the haters hate. I get it, and I dig that about you.
Pots - I understand your line of thinking but this is the very definition of conspiracy theory.
If this did happen the way you have drawn it up - sure, the NFL would want to hide it (to protect revenues and profits) - but any reporter or news agency that could make a story of it would hit the jackpot with ratings/revenues/profits.
IF the New England Patriots filmed the Ram's walkthru and subsequently beat the Rams in the SuperBowl because of it - it would be the BIGGEST story in sports - a ratings bonanza for sports and news outlets everywhere. Bigger than steroids. Bigger than Lance Armstrong. Bigger than Tiger Woods. Bigger (and more profitable) than any sports story out there. As much as the NFL would want to squash it to protect profits, every media outlet would want to publish it to earn those same profits.
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
That is a fair point and I think it is a key one that warrants more discussion.
Goodell (in the punishment letter) refers to long standing policy so he seems to be implying that it was always against the rules. However, he doesn't reference any existing rule (seems odd if there was one) and instead refers to the 2006 memorandum. There is no question the 2006 memo said not to do it, but there doesn't appear to have been any existing rule against it.
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