Rich Conway
Footballguy
Your naivety knows no bounds.
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Official Hillary Clinton 2016 thread (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
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timschochet
Footballguy
To answer Ookie's earlier point:
I am not supporting Hillary because she is a woman, but it's a factor in her favor. Obama being black was a factor in his favor for me, but not enough to make me vote for him. In Hillary's case, the fact that she is a woman means a lot to me. I would like to see a woman as President- a strong, intelligent, competent woman whom I agree with most of the time. She doesn't have to be a Democrat; I imagine that if a moderate centrist Republican intelligent competent woman ever ran, (for instance, Olympia Snowe or Kay Bailey Hutchinson) I might have supported her as well.
But I want to see a woman there. I wouldn't mind seeing a Jew as well, which is a factor for me in favor of Bernie. Maybe this is all identity politics like Rich claims. So what? Who the #### cares?
I am not supporting Hillary because she is a woman, but it's a factor in her favor. Obama being black was a factor in his favor for me, but not enough to make me vote for him. In Hillary's case, the fact that she is a woman means a lot to me. I would like to see a woman as President- a strong, intelligent, competent woman whom I agree with most of the time. She doesn't have to be a Democrat; I imagine that if a moderate centrist Republican intelligent competent woman ever ran, (for instance, Olympia Snowe or Kay Bailey Hutchinson) I might have supported her as well.
But I want to see a woman there. I wouldn't mind seeing a Jew as well, which is a factor for me in favor of Bernie. Maybe this is all identity politics like Rich claims. So what? Who the #### cares?
timschochet
Footballguy
Rich Conway
Footballguy
If someone else said "I want to see a white person there", you would consider them racist and an awful person. Identity politics is abhorrent, no matter which way it leans.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I guess. Identity politics is generally more broadly defined than your description, though. And even if we use that more narrow definition, there's this:
Certainly a more overt "vote for me because I'm _______" statement than anything HIllary has said.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Those are pretty funny, hadn't heard either of them. Although I assume the first was said jokingly, and the second was not an appeal to vote for her because she's a woman but rather a lighthearted attempt to address concerns about her age (women live longer than men).
Also FWIW this sort of appeal doesn't really bother me at all. We've had 44 male presidents and not a single woman; bringing a new perspective to the office is a legitimate selling point to offer up IMO. I'd say the same if there were a Jewish or Muslim candidate, or for that matter a Latino candidate (I'd have no problem with Rubio or Cruz making that pitch).
For that matter I'd say the same about Trump, Carson and Fiorina pitching themselves as outsider candidates with no elected office experience. I think that actually makes them less qualified, but that's just my opinion. I have no problem with them pitching it as a selling point.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Nope, nothing overt there...
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Black, white, man, woman, Jewish, Catholic, green, tall, short, whatever... It's revolting.
timschochet
Footballguy
Weve had 42 white male Presidents and one black male President. But now suddenly it's revolting to want a woman in there? #### that.
Black, white, man, woman, Jewish, Catholic, green, tall, short, whatever... It's revolting.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
This is a fundamental disagreement that's been around for years and comes up with all sort of political issues, including obviously affirmative action. Some people think diversity in race/gender/religion adds value because differing perspectives and experiences make the experience better for the whole and encourages minorities that have been victimized by injustice in the past to not give up. Others think everyone should be completely blind to any such characteristics. I consider your perspective a short-sighted one that requires a fantastical belief that we actually live in a fully functioning meritocracy. I'm sure you consider my perspective discriminatory and an outrageous double standard. Nothing to see here.
Black, white, man, woman, Jewish, Catholic, green, tall, short, whatever... It's revolting.
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Rich Conway
Footballguy
The revolting quality of identity politics isn't sudden, or particular to a woman.Weve had 42 white male Presidents and one black male President. But now suddenly it's revolting to want a woman in there? #### that.
Black, white, man, woman, Jewish, Catholic, green, tall, short, whatever... It's revolting.
Ookie Pringle
Footballguy
That isn't what Rich was saying.Weve had 42 white male Presidents and one black male President. But now suddenly it's revolting to want a woman in there? #### that.
Black, white, man, woman, Jewish, Catholic, green, tall, short, whatever... It's revolting.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
We'll disagree forever about this, most likely.This is a fundamental disagreement that's been around for years and comes up with all sort of political issues, including obviously affirmative action. Some people think diversity in race/gender/religion adds value because differing perspectives and experiences make the experience better for the whole and encourages minorities that have been victimized by injustice in the past to not give up. Others think everyone should be completely blind to any such characteristics. I consider your perspective a short-sighted one that requires a fantastical belief that we actually live in a fully functioning meritocracy. I'm sure you consider my perspective discriminatory and an outrageous double standard. Nothing to see here.
Black, white, man, woman, Jewish, Catholic, green, tall, short, whatever... It's revolting.
However, I think you have to admit that Clinton has been blatantly promoting identity politics.
timschochet
Footballguy
Not at all. In her 2008 campaign, she was criticized by feminists for never mentioning until the very end that she was a woman. She tried to de-emphasize the fact. Now she's owning it, she's proud of it.We'll disagree forever about this, most likely.This is a fundamental disagreement that's been around for years and comes up with all sort of political issues, including obviously affirmative action. Some people think diversity in race/gender/religion adds value because differing perspectives and experiences make the experience better for the whole and encourages minorities that have been victimized by injustice in the past to not give up. Others think everyone should be completely blind to any such characteristics. I consider your perspective a short-sighted one that requires a fantastical belief that we actually live in a fully functioning meritocracy. I'm sure you consider my perspective discriminatory and an outrageous double standard. Nothing to see here.
Black, white, man, woman, Jewish, Catholic, green, tall, short, whatever... It's revolting.
However, I think you have to admit that Clinton has been blatantly promoting identity politics.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Not really. You gave me two quotes from a woman who's been campaigning for president for a combined period of 2+ years. One of them seemed like an offhand joke, the other seemed more like a response to age-related concerns than a plea to vote for her because of her gender.We'll disagree forever about this, most likely.This is a fundamental disagreement that's been around for years and comes up with all sort of political issues, including obviously affirmative action. Some people think diversity in race/gender/religion adds value because differing perspectives and experiences make the experience better for the whole and encourages minorities that have been victimized by injustice in the past to not give up. Others think everyone should be completely blind to any such characteristics. I consider your perspective a short-sighted one that requires a fantastical belief that we actually live in a fully functioning meritocracy. I'm sure you consider my perspective discriminatory and an outrageous double standard. Nothing to see here.
Black, white, man, woman, Jewish, Catholic, green, tall, short, whatever... It's revolting.
However, I think you have to admit that Clinton has been blatantly promoting identity politics.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
This is a strange statement. I know it is tough to look at her as a woman but it is apparent that she is a woman. That shrill voice is a dead give away. Seems odd that she should have to announce that she is a woman.Not at all. In her 2008 campaign, she was criticized by feminists for never mentioning until the very end that she was a woman. She tried to de-emphasize the fact. Now she's owning it, she's proud of it.We'll disagree forever about this, most likely.This is a fundamental disagreement that's been around for years and comes up with all sort of political issues, including obviously affirmative action. Some people think diversity in race/gender/religion adds value because differing perspectives and experiences make the experience better for the whole and encourages minorities that have been victimized by injustice in the past to not give up. Others think everyone should be completely blind to any such characteristics. I consider your perspective a short-sighted one that requires a fantastical belief that we actually live in a fully functioning meritocracy. I'm sure you consider my perspective discriminatory and an outrageous double standard. Nothing to see here.
Black, white, man, woman, Jewish, Catholic, green, tall, short, whatever... It's revolting.
However, I think you have to admit that Clinton has been blatantly promoting identity politics.
Maybe Hillary should just start every speech with something like: "I know I am tough to look at but I am a woman. If you do not want to listen to the lies I am about to throw out today, that is ok. Before you turn off your TV or radio, I am just asking everyone, especially every woman, to vote for me since the US should have a woman POTUS at this point. Thank you.".
Ookie Pringle
Footballguy
There is more than two quotes.Not really. You gave me two quotes from a woman who's been campaigning for president for a combined period of 2+ years. One of them seemed like an offhand joke, the other seemed more like a response to age-related concerns than a plea to vote for her because of her gender.We'll disagree forever about this, most likely.However, I think you have to admit that Clinton has been blatantly promoting identity politics.This is a fundamental disagreement that's been around for years and comes up with all sort of political issues, including obviously affirmative action. Some people think diversity in race/gender/religion adds value because differing perspectives and experiences make the experience better for the whole and encourages minorities that have been victimized by injustice in the past to not give up. Others think everyone should be completely blind to any such characteristics. I consider your perspective a short-sighted one that requires a fantastical belief that we actually live in a fully functioning meritocracy. I'm sure you consider my perspective discriminatory and an outrageous double standard. Nothing to see here.
Black, white, man, woman, Jewish, Catholic, green, tall, short, whatever... It's revolting.
http://nypost.com/2015/10/10/hillarys-desperate-pitch-did-i-mention-im-a-woman/
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Not really. You gave me two quotes from a woman who's been campaigning for president for a combined period of 2+ years. One of them seemed like an offhand joke, the other seemed more like a response to age-related concerns than a plea to vote for her because of her gender.We'll disagree forever about this, most likely.This is a fundamental disagreement that's been around for years and comes up with all sort of political issues, including obviously affirmative action. Some people think diversity in race/gender/religion adds value because differing perspectives and experiences make the experience better for the whole and encourages minorities that have been victimized by injustice in the past to not give up. Others think everyone should be completely blind to any such characteristics. I consider your perspective a short-sighted one that requires a fantastical belief that we actually live in a fully functioning meritocracy. I'm sure you consider my perspective discriminatory and an outrageous double standard. Nothing to see here.
Black, white, man, woman, Jewish, Catholic, green, tall, short, whatever... It's revolting.
However, I think you have to admit that Clinton has been blatantly promoting identity politics.
These aren't offhand. They aren't jokes. They're a consistent narrative she's been pushing. I guess the abhorrence of it is subjective, but the fact that she's been going to it over and over again isn't.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Right.timschochet said:
So let's say what's really going on here.
Hillary using Trump's xenophobia to raise money and corner the muslim electorate. Which never really was a "thing" but is now.
Sand
Footballguy
Whether you like Carson or not, the best political quote so far (IMO) in this election cycle has been: “I was asked by an NPR reporter once, why don’t I talk about race that often,” he said. “I said it’s because I’m a neurosurgeon. And she thought that was a strange response. And I said, you see, when I take someone into the operating room, I’m actually operating on the thing that makes them who they are. The skin doesn’t make them who they are.”timschochet said:
I find that profound and moving. And I guess that's the difference - you don't. All I care about in a President are 1) an ability to put a face on the USA and speak to our interests, 2) Decision making abilities in times of crisis, and 3) ideaology - i.e. which direction will he/she lead. Identities other than those hold no interest to me.
It obviously does to you (and, frankly, a huge number of Americans). I find that shallow and appalling.
Ok, may this is the quote of the election cycle.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
The worst part of that quote from the debate was Hillary was asked how her administration would differ from Pres. Obama's. The answer? She wears pantsuits. That was an answer in a presidential debate. What's also funny to me is early on, like at the beginning, of this thread there was discussion about an appearance by Hillary at Emily's List, basically she was campaigning before she was campaigning, where she said 2-3 things that really just said 'hey vote for me because I'm a woman'. And there was outrage and conjecture about this issue, but of course Hillary has said it several times now. First!Woman!President!, etc. It's the lowest form of campaigning. I think it has a negative effect among women though, especially younger women, and Hillary's numbers reflect that. They don't want to be categorized and expected to act or vote a certain way by a woman anymore than they want to get that from a man.Whether you like Carson or not, the best political quote so far (IMO) in this election cycle has been: “I was asked by an NPR reporter once, why don’t I talk about race that often,” he said. “I said it’s because I’m a neurosurgeon. And she thought that was a strange response. And I said, you see, when I take someone into the operating room, I’m actually operating on the thing that makes them who they are. The skin doesn’t make them who they are.”timschochet said:
I find that profound and moving. And I guess that's the difference - you don't. All I care about in a President are 1) an ability to put a face on the USA and speak to our interests, 2) Decision making abilities in times of crisis, and 3) ideaology - i.e. which direction will he/she lead. Identities other than those hold no interest to me.
It obviously does to you (and, frankly, a huge number of Americans). I find that shallow and appalling.
Ok, may this is the quote of the election cycle.
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timschochet
Footballguy
As I wrote Sand, it's not the main issue for me, or even close to the main issue. But it IS an issue. I think Tobias put it very well: we don't live in a meritocracy.
But that aside, my main qualifications for President are exactly the same as yours. And for me, in all 3 of the categories you mentioned, Hillary Clinton is very clearly the best candidate.
But that aside, my main qualifications for President are exactly the same as yours. And for me, in all 3 of the categories you mentioned, Hillary Clinton is very clearly the best candidate.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I guess? Not sure why that would bother anyone. She's stating a fact. I wouldn't say she's made it a central part of her message. But it's important. And these quotes are not simply "vote for me because I'm a woman." It's "vote for me because I bring a fresh perspective." No different than saying "vote for me because I'm a successful political outsider." Same basic message.Rich Conway said:TobiasFunke said:Not really. You gave me two quotes from a woman who's been campaigning for president for a combined period of 2+ years. One of them seemed like an offhand joke, the other seemed more like a response to age-related concerns than a plea to vote for her because of her gender.Rich Conway said:We'll disagree forever about this, most likely.TobiasFunke said:This is a fundamental disagreement that's been around for years and comes up with all sort of political issues, including obviously affirmative action. Some people think diversity in race/gender/religion adds value because differing perspectives and experiences make the experience better for the whole and encourages minorities that have been victimized by injustice in the past to not give up. Others think everyone should be completely blind to any such characteristics. I consider your perspective a short-sighted one that requires a fantastical belief that we actually live in a fully functioning meritocracy. I'm sure you consider my perspective discriminatory and an outrageous double standard. Nothing to see here.Rich Conway said:
Black, white, man, woman, Jewish, Catholic, green, tall, short, whatever... It's revolting.
However, I think you have to admit that Clinton has been blatantly promoting identity politics.These aren't offhand. They aren't jokes. They're a consistent narrative she's been pushing. I guess the abhorrence of it is subjective, but the fact that she's been going to it over and over again isn't.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I have absolutely no idea why this is a problem. "Vote for me because I'm not a xenophobic bigot" is a perfectly legitimate campaign message, even an important one. If the GOP doesn't like it there's an easy fix: don't be/support xenophobic bigots.
Maybe - except she does not bring a fresh perspective - so it really is just down to "vote for me because I am a woman"I guess? Not sure why that would bother anyone. She's stating a fact. I wouldn't say she's made it a central part of her message. But it's important. And these quotes are not simply "vote for me because I'm a woman." It's "vote for me because I bring a fresh perspective." No different than saying "vote for me because I'm a successful political outsider." Same basic message.Rich Conway said:TobiasFunke said:Not really. You gave me two quotes from a woman who's been campaigning for president for a combined period of 2+ years. One of them seemed like an offhand joke, the other seemed more like a response to age-related concerns than a plea to vote for her because of her gender.Rich Conway said:We'll disagree forever about this, most likely.TobiasFunke said:This is a fundamental disagreement that's been around for years and comes up with all sort of political issues, including obviously affirmative action. Some people think diversity in race/gender/religion adds value because differing perspectives and experiences make the experience better for the whole and encourages minorities that have been victimized by injustice in the past to not give up. Others think everyone should be completely blind to any such characteristics. I consider your perspective a short-sighted one that requires a fantastical belief that we actually live in a fully functioning meritocracy. I'm sure you consider my perspective discriminatory and an outrageous double standard. Nothing to see here.Rich Conway said:
Black, white, man, woman, Jewish, Catholic, green, tall, short, whatever... It's revolting.
However, I think you have to admit that Clinton has been blatantly promoting identity politics.These aren't offhand. They aren't jokes. They're a consistent narrative she's been pushing. I guess the abhorrence of it is subjective, but the fact that she's been going to it over and over again isn't.
Even she knows that if this were really an election on the issues - she never makes it past Bernie Sanders. So, kudos to her for figuring out how to try to coddle the sheeple.
squistion
Footballguy
Which is what she has been saying all along, not "Vote for me because I am a woman" (as has been claimed here).timschochet said:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/23/politics/hillary-clinton-gender-merits/
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Hillary cares about creating a new niche of Hillary-loyal voters who are muslim. She is creating a muslim electorate. And she cares about the fundraising that comes with it. - And that's a whole other issue. It is either fine or or unfortunate or both depending on how we look at our politics today.
However it is not that Hillary is creating a campaign to save muslims from themselves and the lures of jihadism and terrorism as Tim suggests.
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Sounds pretty good to me! You'd prefer that she list Muslims, Mexicans, homosexuals, and women?
timschochet
Footballguy
You do realize that FDR was referring to Republicans too right? Specifically Republican utility commissioners in 1932.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
What fight against Republicans has she ever led? What enemy has she ever made in terms of policy? Has she ever done anything to actually anger them in terms of policy? I can't recall it.
And how did she ever make enemies of the Iranians?
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
squistion
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Wait- so Secretary of Defense Ash Carter was using personal emails all this time? Even as Hillary was being investigated over the summer???
lol
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/defense-secretary-ash-carter-used-personal-email-work-pentagon-n481601
lol
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/defense-secretary-ash-carter-used-personal-email-work-pentagon-n481601
Rove!
Footballguy
30,000 emails with hundreds of classified messages including a few top secret stored on a private server vs. 72 administrative non-classified emails. Almost the same thing. It is like excusing a drunk driving homocide by pointing to someone's speeding ticket.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Different situation:
- He had a US Gov account on DOD servers
- Mostly used USGov
- Didn't delete
- Didn't destroy data
- Didn't lie about his server
- Didn't have a personal server
- He didn't evade Congressional requests and subpoena
- No word he had Classified and S/TS docs on it
- No indication he was hacked
- etc. X a dozen more differences.
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hagmania
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
http://www.ibtimes.com/political-capital/campaign-2016-hillary-clinton-says-she-unaware-big-money-oil-gas-companies-have
- This is like the Iranians are her enemies comment, she is just joking.
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
http://energyindepth.org/marcellus/hillary-clinton-touts-benefits-of-natural-gas/
- Energy In Depth is an energy industry trade publication.
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