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Most Impressive Rookie WR Season Ever -- Moss or Beckham? (1 Viewer)

Best rookie WR season

  • Randy Moss

    Votes: 142 62.3%

  • Odell Beckham

    Votes: 86 37.7%
  • Total voters
    228
gianmarco

gianmarco

Footballguy
What Beckham has done is sensational. Moss has held the #1 spot for a rookie WR but is that still the case?

Randy Moss in 1998 -- 69/1313/17 in 16 games

O. Beckham in 2014 -- 91/1305/12 in 12 games (prorated over full 16 would be 122/1740/16!!)

Moss per game #'s -- 4.3/82/1.06

Beckham per game #'s -- 7.6/109/1

So, what do you think? If you prorate the #'s, then Beckham would clearly be the best rookie WR season ever. But, he did miss those 4 games. Which is it?

 
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Close. One thing to keep in mind, Randy Moss wasn't playing full time (officially). He was on the field in 3-WR sets (which turned out to be quite often as I recall).

I have to give Moss the nod, but Beckham is right there.

 
Moss. This is a day and age of video game passing. OBJ is awesome and this season is #2 bit it's just not the same.

 
Dizzy said:
Close. One thing to keep in mind, Randy Moss wasn't playing full time (officially). He was on the field in 3-WR sets (which turned out to be quite often as I recall).

I have to give Moss the nod, but Beckham is right there.
Click to expand...
Same goes for Beckham as he wasn't starting right away when he started playing in week 5.

 
Between the two I'd go with Beckham by a hair.

Boldin deserves a mention if you're looking at other players as well. 101/1377/8

WR rookie seasons sorted by receiving yrds



Code: 
Rk                     Year Age         Draft  Tm  Lg     G GS       Tgt Rec  Yds   Y/R TD   Y/G Ctch%1          Bill Groman 1960  24               HOU AFL    14  0            72 1473 20.46 12 105.2      2        Anquan Boldin 2003  23          2-54 ARI NFL    16 16       165 101 1377 13.63  8  86.1  61.23           Randy Moss 1998  21          1-21 MIN NFL    16 11       124  69 1313 19.03 17  82.1  55.64         Billy Howton 1952  22          2-15 GNB NFL    12  0            53 1231 23.23 13 102.6      5      Michael Clayton 2004  22          1-15 TAM NFL    16 13       122  80 1193 14.91  7  74.6  65.66          Terry Glenn 1996  22           1-7 NWE NFL    15 15            90 1132 12.58  6  75.5      7          Bill Brooks 1986  22          4-86 IND NFL    16 12            65 1131 17.40  8  70.7      8        Odell Beckham 2014  22          1-12 NYG NFL    11 10       109  79 1120 14.18 11 101.8  72.59        Ernest Givins 1986  22          2-34 HOU NFL    15 15            61 1062 17.41  3  70.8      10          A.J. Green 2011  23           1-4 CIN NFL    15 15       115  65 1057 16.26  7  70.5  56.511        Keenan Allen 2013  21          3-76 SDG NFL    15 14       105  71 1046 14.73  8  69.7  67.612       Joey Galloway 1995  24           1-8 SEA NFL    16 16            67 1039 15.51  7  64.9      13     Marques Colston 2006  23         7-252 NOR NFL    14 12       115  70 1038 14.83  8  74.1  60.914   Cris Collinsworth 1981  22          2-37 CIN NFL    16 16            67 1009 15.06  8  63.1      15      John Jefferson 1978  22          1-14 SDG NFL    14 14            56 1001 17.88 13  71.5      16     Kelvin Benjamin 2014  23          1-28 CAR NFL    15 14       140  72  999 13.88  9  66.6  51.417          Mike Evans 2014  21           1-7 TAM NFL    14 14       116  63  997 15.83 11  71.2  54.318         Dwayne Bowe 2007  23          1-23 KAN NFL    16 15       116  70  995 14.21  5  62.2  60.319       Kevin Johnson 1999  23          2-32 CLE NFL    16 16       137  66  986 14.94  8  61.6  48.220         Eddie Royal 2008  22          2-42 DEN NFL    15 15       129  91  980 10.77  5  65.3  70.5                                                      Games    Receiving                              Rk                     Year Age         Draft  Tm  Lg     G GS       Tgt Rec  Yds   Y/R TD   Y/G Ctch%21       Andre Johnson 2003  22           1-3 HOU NFL    16 16       119  66  976 14.79  4  61.0  55.522       Mike Williams 2010  23         4-101 TAM NFL    16 16       129  65  964 14.83 11  60.3  50.423         Julio Jones 2011  22           1-6 ATL NFL    13 13        95  54  959 17.76  8  73.8  56.824         Eddie Brown 1985  23          1-13 CIN NFL    16 16            53  942 17.77  8  58.9      25          Gary Clark 1985  23          2-55 WAS NFL    16 10            72  926 12.86  5  57.9      26       Sammy Watkins 2014  21           1-4 BUF NFL    15 15       123  62  925 14.92  6  61.7  50.427      Eddie Kennison 1996  23          1-18 STL NFL    15 14            54  924 17.11  9  61.6      28      Paul Warfield* 1964  22   1-114-28AFL CLE NFL    14  0            52  920 17.69  9  65.7      29      DeSean Jackson 2008  22          2-49 PHI NFL    16 15       120  62  912 14.71  2  57.0  51.730         Sammy White 1976  22          2-54 MIN NFL    14 14            51  906 17.76 10  64.7      31       Frank Sanders 1995  22          2-47 ARI NFL    16 15            52  883 16.98  2  55.2      32        Randy Vataha 1971  23        17-418 NWE NFL    14 13            51  872 17.10  9  62.3      33         Jack Clancy 1967  23          5-73 MIA AFL    14  9            67  868 12.96  2  62.0      34        Paul Flatley 1963  22   4-447-53AFL MIN NFL    14 14            51  867 17.00  4  61.9      35     Justin Blackmon 2012  22           1-5 JAX NFL    16 14       132  64  865 13.52  5  54.1  48.536       Shawn Collins 1989  22          1-27 ATL NFL    16 16            58  862 14.86  3  53.9      37         T.Y. Hilton 2012  23          3-92 IND NFL    15  1        90  50  861 17.22  7  57.4  55.638    Keyshawn Johnson 1996  24           1-1 NYJ NFL    14 11            63  844 13.40  8  60.3      39        Torrey Smith 2011  22          2-58 BAL NFL    16 14        95  50  841 16.82  7  52.6  52.640     Marvin Harrison 1996  24          1-19 IND NFL    16 15            64  836 13.06  8  52.3                                                            Games    Receiving                              Rk                     Year Age         Draft  Tm  Lg     G GS       Tgt Rec  Yds   Y/R TD   Y/G Ctch%41         Andre Rison 1989  22          1-22 IND NFL    16 13            52  820 15.77  4  51.3      42     Lawrence Dawsey 1991  24          3-66 TAM NFL    16 10            55  818 14.87  3  51.1      43        Roy Williams 2004  23           1-7 DET NFL    14 12       118  54  817 15.13  8  58.4  45.844         Josh Gordon 2012  21           2-1 CLE NFL    16 13        96  50  805 16.10  5  50.3  52.145     DeAndre Hopkins 2013  21          1-27 HOU NFL    16 16        91  52  802 15.42  2  50.1  57.146        Ricky Proehl 1990  22          3-58 PHO NFL    16  2            56  802 14.32  4  50.1      47           Art Monk* 1980  23          1-18 WAS NFL    16 11            58  797 13.74  3  49.8      48     Sterling Sharpe 1988  23           1-7 GNB NFL    16 16            55  791 14.38  1  49.4      49        Percy Harvin 2009  21          1-22 MIN NFL    15  8        91  60  790 13.17  6  52.7  65.950        Doug Baldwin 2011  23               SEA NFL    16  1        85  51  788 15.45  4  49.3  60.051          Torry Holt 1999  23           1-6 STL NFL    16 15        97  52  788 15.15  6  49.3  53.652    Larry Fitzgerald 2004  21           1-3 ARI NFL    16 16       115  58  780 13.45  8  48.8  50.453       Jeremy Maclin 2009  21          1-19 PHI NFL    15 13        91  56  773 13.80  4  51.5  61.554     Jordan Matthews 2014  22          2-42 PHI NFL    15 10        93  59  767 13.00  7  51.1  63.455          Glenn Bass 1961  22 5-6423-183AFL BUF AFL    14  0            50  765 15.30  3  54.6      56       Wayne Chrebet 1995  22               NYJ NFL    16 16            66  726 11.00  4  45.4      57    Danny Abramowicz 1967  22        17-420 NOR NFL    14  0            50  721 14.42  6  51.5      58       Vance Johnson 1985  22          2-31 DEN NFL    16  7            51  721 14.14  3  45.1      59        Troy Edwards 1999  22          1-13 PIT NFL    16  6       118  61  714 11.70  5  44.6  51.760     Darrell Jackson 2000  22          3-80 SEA NFL    16  9        93  53  713 13.45  6  44.6  57.0                                                      Games    Receiving                              Rk                     Year Age         Draft  Tm  Lg     G GS       Tgt Rec  Yds   Y/R TD   Y/G Ctch%61     Gene Washington 1969  22          1-16 SFO NFL    14 14            51  711 13.94  3  50.8      62         Greg Little 2011  22          2-59 CLE NFL    16 12       119  61  709 11.62  2  44.3  51.363          Don Looney 1940  23          8-63 PHI NFL    11  8            58  707 12.19  4  64.3      64      Steve Largent* 1976  22         4-117 SEA NFL    14 13            54  705 13.06  4  50.4      65       Jarvis Landry 2014  22          2-63 MIA NFL    15 10       103  79  703  8.90  5  46.9  76.766          Tom Fears* 1948  26        11-103 RAM NFL    12  1            51  698 13.69  4  58.2      67       Austin Collie 2009  24         4-127 IND NFL    16  5        89  60  676 11.27  7  42.3  67.468        Donnie Avery 2008  24          2-33 STL NFL    15 12       102  53  674 12.72  3  44.9  52.069      Kendall Wright 2012  23          1-20 TEN NFL    15  5       104  64  626  9.78  4  41.7  61.570      Mike Pritchard 1991  22          1-13 ATL NFL    16 11            50  624 12.48  2  39.0      71      Jordan Shipley 2010  25          3-84 CIN NFL    15  4        74  52  600 11.54  3  40.0  70.372       Peter Warrick 2000  23           1-4 CIN NFL    16 16       126  51  592 11.61  4  37.0  40.573      Willie Jackson 1995  24         4-109 JAX NFL    14 10            53  589 11.11  5  42.1      74          Tim Wright 2013  23               TAM NFL    16  8        76  54  571 10.57  5  35.7  71.175         Davone Bess 2008  23               MIA NFL    16  6        75  54  554 10.26  1  34.6  72.076       Brandin Cooks 2014  21          1-20 NOR NFL    10  7        69  53  550 10.38  3  55.0  76.877       Jerome Pathon 1998  23          2-32 IND NFL    16 15       105  50  511 10.22  1  31.9  47.678         Ace Sanders 2013  22         4-101 JAX NFL    15  4        87  51  484  9.49  1  32.3  58.6
 
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jurb26 said:
Moss. This is a day and age of video game passing. OBJ is awesome and this season is #2 bit it's just not the same.
Click to expand...
I think there are 2 things at play here. 1 is the fact he played 12 games vs. 16 games. The 2nd is the "day and age of video game passing".

So, let's say OBJ played 16 games and finished with 122/1740/16 vs. 69/1313/17. Would you say that still isn't #1 because it being a different era? If so, I would heartily disagree. I don't see any way you could argue that Moss would still be #1 given those #'s.

Thus, the bigger issue is that his total numbers are decreased because he missed the first 4 weeks of the season due to injury. So the question is--are 12 games enough to make that decision over a full season? I don't think it has anything to do with the fact they played at a different time because the per game #'s heavily favor OBJ and are more than enough to account for a different era.

 
gianmarco said:
jurb26 said:
Moss. This is a day and age of video game passing. OBJ is awesome and this season is #2 bit it's just not the same.
Click to expand...
I think there are 2 things at play here. 1 is the fact he played 12 games vs. 16 games. The 2nd is the "day and age of video game passing".

So, let's say OBJ played 16 games and finished with 122/1740/16 vs. 69/1313/17. Would you say that still isn't #1 because it being a different era? If so, I would heartily disagree. I don't see any way you could argue that Moss would still be #1 given those #'s.

Thus, the bigger issue is that his total numbers are decreased because he missed the first 4 weeks of the season due to injury. So the question is--are 12 games enough to make that decision over a full season? I don't think it has anything to do with the fact they played at a different time because the per game #'s heavily favor OBJ and are more than enough to account for a different era.
Click to expand...
Moss - 124 targets

Beckham - 130 targets

 
Moss revolutionized the WR position and passing game as a rookie. You can't put numbers to that.

 
cstu said:
Boldin - 101/1377/8 (Blake/McCown at QB)

Beckham - 91/1305/12 (Eli Manning at QB)
Click to expand...
Again, 16 games vs 12 games. Almost identical rec/yards and 4 more TDs while only playing 3/4th of a season compared to a full season. Not close at all, IMO, vs. Boldin.

 
gianmarco said:
cstu said:
Boldin - 101/1377/8 (Blake/McCown at QB)

Beckham - 91/1305/12 (Eli Manning at QB)
Click to expand...
Again, 16 games vs 12 games. Almost identical rec/yards and 4 more TDs while only playing 3/4th of a season compared to a full season. Not close at all, IMO, vs. Boldin.
Click to expand...
Beckham had more targets than Moss. What do you think he would have done if he'd had 10.8 targets a game like Beckham instead of 7.75?

 
cstu said:
gianmarco said:
cstu said:
Boldin - 101/1377/8 (Blake/McCown at QB)

Beckham - 91/1305/12 (Eli Manning at QB)
Click to expand...
Again, 16 games vs 12 games. Almost identical rec/yards and 4 more TDs while only playing 3/4th of a season compared to a full season. Not close at all, IMO, vs. Boldin.
Click to expand...
Beckham had more targets than Moss. What do you think he would have done if he'd had 10.8 targets a game like Beckham instead of 7.75?
Click to expand...
I was wondering when that was going to be brought up.
 
Just looking at it from a numbers standpoint, I'd say Beckham has been more impressive. Randy Moss had some good but not great numbers most of the year with a few spurts of great ones. Once he got going, Beckham had unreal numbers week after week.

In terms of the wow factor, both are great, but you had a sense with Randy Moss that we were watching a future hall of famer.

 
Nothing against Randy and his incredible yr, but Beckham became a leader, brought this this team to life and saved his coaches job... gotta go w/ him.

Not saying OBD will become the next Moss though

 
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KellysHeroes said:
Nothing against Randy and his incredible yr, but Beckham became a leader, brought this this team to life and saved his coaches job... gotta go w/ him.
Click to expand...
And moss catapulted his team to a 15-1 record, a missed FG away from a SB and a new NFL record for scoring.

 
Moss had ridiculous speed and was impossible to cover, but the guy basically ran one route for most of his career. Beckham is already one of the better route runners in the league and can play anywhere the Giants ask him to. I'd give the edge to OBJ.

 
CR69 said:
Moss had ridiculous speed and was impossible to cover, but the guy basically ran one route for most of his career. Beckham is already one of the better route runners in the league and can play anywhere the Giants ask him to. I'd give the edge to OBJ.
Click to expand...
This myth has been debunked a thousand times over.

 
cstu said:
gianmarco said:
cstu said:
Boldin - 101/1377/8 (Blake/McCown at QB)

Beckham - 91/1305/12 (Eli Manning at QB)
Click to expand...
Again, 16 games vs 12 games. Almost identical rec/yards and 4 more TDs while only playing 3/4th of a season compared to a full season. Not close at all, IMO, vs. Boldin.
Click to expand...
Beckham had more targets than Moss. What do you think he would have done if he'd had 10.8 targets a game like Beckham instead of 7.75?
Click to expand...
And that's the difference in playing as WR option 1, and playing behind Carter and Reed.

Both guys absolutely amazing though.

 
jurb26 said:
KellysHeroes said:
Nothing against Randy and his incredible yr, but Beckham became a leader, brought this this team to life and saved his coaches job... gotta go w/ him.
Click to expand...
And moss catapulted his team to a 15-1 record, a missed FG away from a SB and a new NFL record for scoring.
Click to expand...
That just proves my point, Moss turned a good team to a very good team... but the cogs were already in place including future HOF WR Carter.

The Giants were DEAD!!! NY wanted to run everyone out the building. Then Beckham became the #1 and made circus catch after circus catch as the Giants strung a couple of wins together. Reports are Tom gets another yr.

 
Ernol said:
Just looking at it from a numbers standpoint, I'd say Beckham has been more impressive. Randy Moss had some good but not great numbers most of the year with a few spurts of great ones. Once he got going, Beckham had unreal numbers week after week.

In terms of the wow factor, both are great, but you had a sense with Randy Moss that we were watching a future hall of famer.
Click to expand...
Moss had 11 TD's in the last 6 games of the season.

That alone would have tied him for 5th in TD's, three behind Owens and Freeman.

 
Dizzy said:
cstu said:
gianmarco said:
cstu said:
Boldin - 101/1377/8 (Blake/McCown at QB)

Beckham - 91/1305/12 (Eli Manning at QB)
Click to expand...
Again, 16 games vs 12 games. Almost identical rec/yards and 4 more TDs while only playing 3/4th of a season compared to a full season. Not close at all, IMO, vs. Boldin.
Click to expand...
Beckham had more targets than Moss. What do you think he would have done if he'd had 10.8 targets a game like Beckham instead of 7.75?
Click to expand...
And that's the difference in playing as WR option 1, and playing behind Carter and Reed.

Both guys absolutely amazing though.
Click to expand...
Or it's the difference in an NFL that averages 238 yds passing per team vs. one that averaged 205.
 
jurb26 said:
CR69 said:
Moss had ridiculous speed and was impossible to cover, but the guy basically ran one route for most of his career. Beckham is already one of the better route runners in the league and can play anywhere the Giants ask him to. I'd give the edge to OBJ.
Click to expand...
This myth has been debunked a thousand times over.
Click to expand...
Moss did not run a full route tree, especially at the beginning of his career.

 
CR69 said:
jurb26 said:
CR69 said:
Moss had ridiculous speed and was impossible to cover, but the guy basically ran one route for most of his career. Beckham is already one of the better route runners in the league and can play anywhere the Giants ask him to. I'd give the edge to OBJ.
Click to expand...
This myth has been debunked a thousand times over.
Click to expand...
Moss did not run a full route tree, especially at the beginning of his career.
Click to expand...
Even if that's true, which it's not, it still doesn't change the myth you stated in the first post.
 
It is very close in my opinion, but I think the era tells us that Moss had the better year. What makes it close is how much time Beckham missed.

 
jurb26 said:
Moss. This is a day and age of video game passing. OBJ is awesome and this season is #2 bit it's just not the same.
Click to expand...
This. Beckham won me quite a bit of cash and I love him as a player but I believe Moss, albeit not by much, had a better rookie season.

 
jurb26 said:
cstu said:
gianmarco said:
cstu said:
Boldin - 101/1377/8 (Blake/McCown at QB)

Beckham - 91/1305/12 (Eli Manning at QB)
Click to expand...
Again, 16 games vs 12 games. Almost identical rec/yards and 4 more TDs while only playing 3/4th of a season compared to a full season. Not close at all, IMO, vs. Boldin.
Click to expand...
Beckham had more targets than Moss. What do you think he would have done if he'd had 10.8 targets a game like Beckham instead of 7.75?
Click to expand...
I was wondering when that was going to be brought up.
Click to expand...
We don't typically project what a guy would do with more targets when he's played a full season. It is what it is. Some guys are going to be higher target guys (i.e. possession WRs) and others are going to be lower target guys (i.e. deep threats). OBJ caught 70% of his targets while Moss only caught 55% of his. It does not necessarily mean that Moss would be just as effective by increasing his target numbers.

Prorating target numbers (and thus actual usage) is a different animal than prorating actual missed time.

 
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gianmarco said:
jurb26 said:
cstu said:
gianmarco said:
cstu said:
Boldin - 101/1377/8 (Blake/McCown at QB)

Beckham - 91/1305/12 (Eli Manning at QB)
Click to expand...
Again, 16 games vs 12 games. Almost identical rec/yards and 4 more TDs while only playing 3/4th of a season compared to a full season. Not close at all, IMO, vs. Boldin.
Click to expand...
Beckham had more targets than Moss. What do you think he would have done if he'd had 10.8 targets a game like Beckham instead of 7.75?
Click to expand...
I was wondering when that was going to be brought up.
Click to expand...
We don't typically project what a guy would do with more targets when he's played a full season. It is what it is. Some guys are going to be higher target guys (i.e. possession WRs) and others are going to be lower target guys (i.e. deep threats). OBJ caught 75% of his targets while Moss only caught 55% of his. It does not necessarily mean that Moss would be just as effective by increasing his target numbers.

Prorating target numbers (and thus actual usage) is a different animal than prorating actual missed time.
Click to expand...
Targets matter because they lead to stats. Especially when teams are passing more now vs. then. Literally ever meaningful passing number is up, substantially by and large, now vs then.
 
Moss did have the benefit of playing with Carter and Reed at WR and Robert Smith at RB to help keep defenses preoccupied in coverage. Beckham Jr. was pretty much the only legitimate threat for the second half of the season, and opposing teams still couldn't keep him in check.

 
jurb26 said:
gianmarco said:
jurb26 said:
cstu said:
gianmarco said:
cstu said:
Boldin - 101/1377/8 (Blake/McCown at QB)

Beckham - 91/1305/12 (Eli Manning at QB)
Click to expand...
Again, 16 games vs 12 games. Almost identical rec/yards and 4 more TDs while only playing 3/4th of a season compared to a full season. Not close at all, IMO, vs. Boldin.
Click to expand...
Beckham had more targets than Moss. What do you think he would have done if he'd had 10.8 targets a game like Beckham instead of 7.75?
Click to expand...
I was wondering when that was going to be brought up.
Click to expand...
We don't typically project what a guy would do with more targets when he's played a full season. It is what it is. Some guys are going to be higher target guys (i.e. possession WRs) and others are going to be lower target guys (i.e. deep threats). OBJ caught 75% of his targets while Moss only caught 55% of his. It does not necessarily mean that Moss would be just as effective by increasing his target numbers.

Prorating target numbers (and thus actual usage) is a different animal than prorating actual missed time.
Click to expand...
Targets matter because they lead to stats. Especially when teams are passing more now vs. then. Literally ever meaningful passing number is up, substantially by and large, now vs then.
Click to expand...
Ok, so once again I'll ask the question since it seems to be more about the different era for you. Assume OBJ played 16 games based on his prorated stats.

OBJ finishes with 122/1740/16

Randy Moss finishes with 69/1313/17

Knowing that Moss played 15 years ago, which would you vote was the greatest rookie WR season of all time based on those final stats (and knowing OBJ did it with more targets)?

 
gianmarco said:
jurb26 said:
gianmarco said:
jurb26 said:
cstu said:
gianmarco said:
cstu said:
Boldin - 101/1377/8 (Blake/McCown at QB)

Beckham - 91/1305/12 (Eli Manning at QB)
Click to expand...
Again, 16 games vs 12 games. Almost identical rec/yards and 4 more TDs while only playing 3/4th of a season compared to a full season. Not close at all, IMO, vs. Boldin.
Click to expand...
Beckham had more targets than Moss. What do you think he would have done if he'd had 10.8 targets a game like Beckham instead of 7.75?
Click to expand...
I was wondering when that was going to be brought up.
Click to expand...
We don't typically project what a guy would do with more targets when he's played a full season. It is what it is. Some guys are going to be higher target guys (i.e. possession WRs) and others are going to be lower target guys (i.e. deep threats). OBJ caught 75% of his targets while Moss only caught 55% of his. It does not necessarily mean that Moss would be just as effective by increasing his target numbers.

Prorating target numbers (and thus actual usage) is a different animal than prorating actual missed time.
Click to expand...
Targets matter because they lead to stats. Especially when teams are passing more now vs. then. Literally ever meaningful passing number is up, substantially by and large, now vs then.
Click to expand...
Ok, so once again I'll ask the question since it seems to be more about the different era for you. Assume OBJ played 16 games based on his prorated stats.

OBJ finishes with 122/1740/16

Randy Moss finishes with 69/1313/17

Knowing that Moss played 15 years ago, which would you vote was the greatest rookie WR season of all time based on those final stats (and knowing OBJ did it with more targets)?
Click to expand...
I already voted, Moss, and did so knowing the per game averages.
 
cstu said:
gianmarco said:
cstu said:
Boldin - 101/1377/8 (Blake/McCown at QB)

Beckham - 91/1305/12 (Eli Manning at QB)
Click to expand...
Again, 16 games vs 12 games. Almost identical rec/yards and 4 more TDs while only playing 3/4th of a season compared to a full season. Not close at all, IMO, vs. Boldin.
Click to expand...
Beckham had more targets than Moss. What do you think he would have done if he'd had 10.8 targets a game like Beckham instead of 7.75?
Click to expand...
Moss caught 55% of his targets Beckham caught 70% of his

 
jurb26 said:
gianmarco said:
jurb26 said:
gianmarco said:
jurb26 said:
cstu said:
gianmarco said:
cstu said:
Boldin - 101/1377/8 (Blake/McCown at QB)

Beckham - 91/1305/12 (Eli Manning at QB)
Click to expand...
Again, 16 games vs 12 games. Almost identical rec/yards and 4 more TDs while only playing 3/4th of a season compared to a full season. Not close at all, IMO, vs. Boldin.
Click to expand...
Beckham had more targets than Moss. What do you think he would have done if he'd had 10.8 targets a game like Beckham instead of 7.75?
Click to expand...
I was wondering when that was going to be brought up.
Click to expand...
We don't typically project what a guy would do with more targets when he's played a full season. It is what it is. Some guys are going to be higher target guys (i.e. possession WRs) and others are going to be lower target guys (i.e. deep threats). OBJ caught 75% of his targets while Moss only caught 55% of his. It does not necessarily mean that Moss would be just as effective by increasing his target numbers.

Prorating target numbers (and thus actual usage) is a different animal than prorating actual missed time.
Click to expand...
Targets matter because they lead to stats. Especially when teams are passing more now vs. then. Literally ever meaningful passing number is up, substantially by and large, now vs then.
Click to expand...
Ok, so once again I'll ask the question since it seems to be more about the different era for you. Assume OBJ played 16 games based on his prorated stats.

OBJ finishes with 122/1740/16

Randy Moss finishes with 69/1313/17

Knowing that Moss played 15 years ago, which would you vote was the greatest rookie WR season of all time based on those final stats (and knowing OBJ did it with more targets)?
Click to expand...
I already voted, Moss, and did so knowing the per game averages.
Click to expand...
You can vote Moss for different reasons (i.e. he actually didn't play 16 games), but thanks for being difficult.

So essentially, a guy can catch 50+ MORE balls for 400+ more yards and it STILL isn't good enough? Are you saying nothing will ever be enough to pass Moss?

 
monk said:
cstu said:
gianmarco said:
cstu said:
Boldin - 101/1377/8 (Blake/McCown at QB)

Beckham - 91/1305/12 (Eli Manning at QB)
Click to expand...
Again, 16 games vs 12 games. Almost identical rec/yards and 4 more TDs while only playing 3/4th of a season compared to a full season. Not close at all, IMO, vs. Boldin.
Click to expand...
Beckham had more targets than Moss. What do you think he would have done if he'd had 10.8 targets a game like Beckham instead of 7.75?
Click to expand...
Moss caught 55% of his targets Beckham caught 70% of his
Click to expand...
Well, that still equals 510 yards about (10.8-7.75)*.55*16*19 (average yards per catch for Moss in 1998).

 
gianmarco said:
jurb26 said:
gianmarco said:
jurb26 said:
cstu said:
gianmarco said:
cstu said:
Boldin - 101/1377/8 (Blake/McCown at QB)

Beckham - 91/1305/12 (Eli Manning at QB)
Click to expand...
Again, 16 games vs 12 games. Almost identical rec/yards and 4 more TDs while only playing 3/4th of a season compared to a full season. Not close at all, IMO, vs. Boldin.
Click to expand...
Beckham had more targets than Moss. What do you think he would have done if he'd had 10.8 targets a game like Beckham instead of 7.75?
Click to expand...
I was wondering when that was going to be brought up.
Click to expand...
We don't typically project what a guy would do with more targets when he's played a full season. It is what it is. Some guys are going to be higher target guys (i.e. possession WRs) and others are going to be lower target guys (i.e. deep threats). OBJ caught 75% of his targets while Moss only caught 55% of his. It does not necessarily mean that Moss would be just as effective by increasing his target numbers.

Prorating target numbers (and thus actual usage) is a different animal than prorating actual missed time.
Click to expand...
Targets matter because they lead to stats. Especially when teams are passing more now vs. then. Literally ever meaningful passing number is up, substantially by and large, now vs then.
Click to expand...
Ok, so once again I'll ask the question since it seems to be more about the different era for you. Assume OBJ played 16 games based on his prorated stats.

OBJ finishes with 122/1740/16

Randy Moss finishes with 69/1313/17

Knowing that Moss played 15 years ago, which would you vote was the greatest rookie WR season of all time based on those final stats (and knowing OBJ did it with more targets)?
Click to expand...
Why why WHY the pro-rated stats?

What if Cruz doesn't get hurt, and cuts into Beckham's targets? Can you please go back and plug in Cruz's piece of the pie, pro-rated of course without the injury, and subtract that from Beckham's stats? Then have Chris Carter blow his knee, move Moss into a starting role, and chop up Carters stats and add them to Moss' numbers.

 
Dizzy said:
gianmarco said:
jurb26 said:
gianmarco said:
jurb26 said:
cstu said:
gianmarco said:
cstu said:
Boldin - 101/1377/8 (Blake/McCown at QB)

Beckham - 91/1305/12 (Eli Manning at QB)
Click to expand...
Again, 16 games vs 12 games. Almost identical rec/yards and 4 more TDs while only playing 3/4th of a season compared to a full season. Not close at all, IMO, vs. Boldin.
Click to expand...
Beckham had more targets than Moss. What do you think he would have done if he'd had 10.8 targets a game like Beckham instead of 7.75?
Click to expand...
I was wondering when that was going to be brought up.
Click to expand...
We don't typically project what a guy would do with more targets when he's played a full season. It is what it is. Some guys are going to be higher target guys (i.e. possession WRs) and others are going to be lower target guys (i.e. deep threats). OBJ caught 75% of his targets while Moss only caught 55% of his. It does not necessarily mean that Moss would be just as effective by increasing his target numbers.

Prorating target numbers (and thus actual usage) is a different animal than prorating actual missed time.
Click to expand...
Targets matter because they lead to stats. Especially when teams are passing more now vs. then. Literally ever meaningful passing number is up, substantially by and large, now vs then.
Click to expand...
Ok, so once again I'll ask the question since it seems to be more about the different era for you. Assume OBJ played 16 games based on his prorated stats.

OBJ finishes with 122/1740/16

Randy Moss finishes with 69/1313/17

Knowing that Moss played 15 years ago, which would you vote was the greatest rookie WR season of all time based on those final stats (and knowing OBJ did it with more targets)?
Click to expand...
Why why WHY the pro-rated stats?

What if Cruz doesn't get hurt, and cuts into Beckham's targets? Can you please go back and plug in Cruz's piece of the pie, pro-rated of course without the injury, and subtract that from Beckham's stats? Then have Chris Carter blow his knee, move Moss into a starting role, and chop up Carters stats and add them to Moss' numbers.
Click to expand...
Read above. It's my belief that the only reason it's close is exactly because he didn't play all 16 games. If he did, based on the pro-rated stats, it's Beckham and it's not close for me. Others are stating that it has more to do with the different era.

I don't think it's wrong to vote for Moss at all (I haven't even decided yet). But I don't agree at all with voting for Moss because of the different eras. It's because you can't just prorate the numbers. If we did, this poll would be lopsided, IMO. Others seem to think that even WITH the prorated numbers that Moss would still win.

 
Faust said:
Moss did have the benefit of playing with Carter and Reed at WR and Robert Smith at RB to help keep defenses preoccupied in coverage. Beckham Jr. was pretty much the only legitimate threat for the second half of the season, and opposing teams still couldn't keep him in check.
Click to expand...
Exactly ... I'm not sure that teams could have double teamed Moss with Carter and Reed on the team.

The Eagles double covered Beckham all day today and he ended up with 12 catches 185 and 1 TD

 
Master of Past and Present said:
monk said:
cstu said:
gianmarco said:
cstu said:
Boldin - 101/1377/8 (Blake/McCown at QB)

Beckham - 91/1305/12 (Eli Manning at QB)
Click to expand...
Again, 16 games vs 12 games. Almost identical rec/yards and 4 more TDs while only playing 3/4th of a season compared to a full season. Not close at all, IMO, vs. Boldin.
Click to expand...
Beckham had more targets than Moss. What do you think he would have done if he'd had 10.8 targets a game like Beckham instead of 7.75?
Click to expand...
Moss caught 55% of his targets Beckham caught 70% of his
Click to expand...
Well, that still equals 510 yards about (10.8-7.75)*.55*16*19 (average yards per catch for Moss in 1998).
Click to expand...
If he had a better catch rate he may have had more targets ... 55% is not very good, 70% is

 
Dizzy said:
gianmarco said:
jurb26 said:
gianmarco said:
jurb26 said:
cstu said:
gianmarco said:
cstu said:
Boldin - 101/1377/8 (Blake/McCown at QB)

Beckham - 91/1305/12 (Eli Manning at QB)
Click to expand...
Again, 16 games vs 12 games. Almost identical rec/yards and 4 more TDs while only playing 3/4th of a season compared to a full season. Not close at all, IMO, vs. Boldin.
Click to expand...
Beckham had more targets than Moss. What do you think he would have done if he'd had 10.8 targets a game like Beckham instead of 7.75?
Click to expand...
I was wondering when that was going to be brought up.
Click to expand...
We don't typically project what a guy would do with more targets when he's played a full season. It is what it is. Some guys are going to be higher target guys (i.e. possession WRs) and others are going to be lower target guys (i.e. deep threats). OBJ caught 75% of his targets while Moss only caught 55% of his. It does not necessarily mean that Moss would be just as effective by increasing his target numbers.

Prorating target numbers (and thus actual usage) is a different animal than prorating actual missed time.
Click to expand...
Targets matter because they lead to stats. Especially when teams are passing more now vs. then. Literally ever meaningful passing number is up, substantially by and large, now vs then.
Click to expand...
Ok, so once again I'll ask the question since it seems to be more about the different era for you. Assume OBJ played 16 games based on his prorated stats.

OBJ finishes with 122/1740/16

Randy Moss finishes with 69/1313/17

Knowing that Moss played 15 years ago, which would you vote was the greatest rookie WR season of all time based on those final stats (and knowing OBJ did it with more targets)?
Click to expand...
Why why WHY the pro-rated stats?

What if Cruz doesn't get hurt, and cuts into Beckham's targets? Can you please go back and plug in Cruz's piece of the pie, pro-rated of course without the injury, and subtract that from Beckham's stats? Then have Chris Carter blow his knee, move Moss into a starting role, and chop up Carters stats and add them to Moss' numbers.
Click to expand...
Or Moss now sees the opposing teams best coverage corner plus double coverage every game and his stats drop dramatically.

 
monk said:
Master of Past and Present said:
monk said:
cstu said:
gianmarco said:
cstu said:
Boldin - 101/1377/8 (Blake/McCown at QB)

Beckham - 91/1305/12 (Eli Manning at QB)
Click to expand...
Again, 16 games vs 12 games. Almost identical rec/yards and 4 more TDs while only playing 3/4th of a season compared to a full season. Not close at all, IMO, vs. Boldin.
Click to expand...
Beckham had more targets than Moss. What do you think he would have done if he'd had 10.8 targets a game like Beckham instead of 7.75?
Click to expand...
Moss caught 55% of his targets Beckham caught 70% of his
Click to expand...
Well, that still equals 510 yards about (10.8-7.75)*.55*16*19 (average yards per catch for Moss in 1998).
Click to expand...
If he had a better catch rate he may have had more targets ... 55% is not very good, 70% is
Click to expand...
Probably more to do with a prolific offense getting big leads and not needing to pass as much down the stretch of games on their way to 15-1 record. Probably throw to him more if they needed more out of him.

 
Or Moss now sees the opposing teams best coverage corner plus double coverage every game and his stats drop dramatically.
Click to expand...
You don't think he was getting that at the end of the year when he put up 11 TD's in 6 games?

 
gianmarco said:
You can vote Moss for different reasons (i.e. he actually didn't play 16 games), but thanks for being difficult.

So essentially, a guy can catch 50+ MORE balls for 400+ more yards and it STILL isn't good enough? Are you saying nothing will ever be enough to pass Moss?
Click to expand...
Would have to at least lead the league in one category.

Moss as a rookie 16 years ago had a better year than Dez, who is likely All-Pro this year.

 
jurb26 said:
CR69 said:
Moss had ridiculous speed and was impossible to cover, but the guy basically ran one route for most of his career. Beckham is already one of the better route runners in the league and can play anywhere the Giants ask him to. I'd give the edge to OBJ.
Click to expand...
This myth has been debunked a thousand times over.
Click to expand...
I don't get this argument anyways. If you're elite at a skill set...elite is putting it modestly by the way, if you're legendary at a skill set when nobody can stop you...why would you do anything but that? Diversity is only cute if it's needed.

 
cstu said:
gianmarco said:
You can vote Moss for different reasons (i.e. he actually didn't play 16 games), but thanks for being difficult.

So essentially, a guy can catch 50+ MORE balls for 400+ more yards and it STILL isn't good enough? Are you saying nothing will ever be enough to pass Moss?
Click to expand...
Would have to at least lead the league in one category.

Moss as a rookie 16 years ago had a better year than Dez, who is likely All-Pro this year.
Click to expand...
Beckhams stats projected over 16 games would lead the NFL in all 3 major categories ... WR Triple Crown if you will

 
cstu said:
Or Moss now sees the opposing teams best coverage corner plus double coverage every game and his stats drop dramatically.
Click to expand...
You don't think he was getting that at the end of the year when he put up 11 TD's in 6 games?
Click to expand...
:lol: Hell Green Bay drafted defensive backs almost exclusively the next two seasons trying to find an answer to Moss.

 
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