Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
Patriots being investigated after Colts game (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter HobbesAB
- Start date
Hey, this is fun.
Just for propriety's sake: Spygate had nothing to do with filming opponents' practices. The accusation was made, but no tapes of opponents' practices existed according to Goodell.
I can understand someone's skepticism given what a massive hoopla surrounded it, but it really, ultimately was just about having a cameraman on the sidelines.
Last edited by a moderator:
Just to make sure I'm clear on this: When Goodell says he looked at the evidence and it clears the Patriots of wrongdoing (spygate didn't feature NE filming opponents practices), we trust him, but when Goodell says he looked at the evidence and it implicates the Patriots in cheating (Brady did know/was involved in the scheme to alter footballs after they'd been approved), we don't trust him.
Can you explain why (other than the obvious fact that one is good for NE/one is bad for NE) we should accept Goodell's ruling in one instance, but just ignore it in another?
You screw up your numbers, fine. You have a complete lack of shame about it... sad but fine. But to continue using those numbers to make your argument, when you know they are, like, really really wrong?
This is ultimately why I'm right and you're wrong. For all my invective, my supposed homerism and bias, I have never resorted to telling straight-up lies to make my arguments.
Good day sir!
I know. I wasn't referring to Spygate specifically there. We were talking about forms of cheating in general (bribing refs, PEDs) and I was adding " filiming opponent practices" to the list of things I would consider serious cheating deserving of major penalties. I was not suggesting that the Pats had been doing that...many teams have been accused of it over the decades.
I was also pointing out that the description "cameraman in the wrong place" was the sort of thing that could be anywhere from such illegal filming to just being a few yards out of a designated filming location...so the wording wasn't clear as to how severe the infraction was.
Again, in general terms. Spygate is over, and relevant here only inasmuch as it points to a pattern of violations by NE.
I screwed nothing up. Feel free to provide some evidence that yourteamcheats.com is more than just a BS, made-up NE fanboy website. You won't be able to do so, and you won't even try, because it's all you're hanging your hat on.
And ultimately what makes you wrong is that you refuse to accept facts, admit reality, and move on. For Tom Brady to be cheater, he has to break the rules established by the NFL, since you know, he plays in the NFL. The NFL has said, and reiterated, that he cheated. Brady isn't challenging this, all he is doing is trying to pull a Ryan Braun and get off on a technicality.
So no matter what you want to say, Tom Brady is a cheater. He has accepted that designation, and even if he were to win the court case & have his suspension overturned, he will always be recognized as a cheater. Even after he is elected to the HOF on the first ballot, even after he is recognized as one of (if not the) greatest QBs of all time, he will be, throughout history, marked as a cheater. And everyone will have forgotten about it, because it is so insignificant. But for some reason, I think you will still be holding onto it, saying "I don't think he cheated, because some of my buddies made up a goofy website and tried to make it look like everyone cheats, just like Tom Brady!"
I'll let you have the last word, because I know that's probably important to you; I'll put you on ignore. Good day to you, too,
I actually edited that post you quoted but since I doubt anyone would bother to scroll back up, I'll just respond to this.
This is the thing about "spygate". The NFL is terrified of technology on the sidelines. These days especially, a smart phone app could call plays (based on calculations of down, distance, score, opposition tendencies, etc.) far more effectively than any human being could. The NFL doesn't want that.
That's why you always see Peyton Manning looking at still photos of defenses (when he could be watching a HiDef replay on a tablet). That's also why Cleveland got punished for texts between the sidelines and the GM (who could presumably have been calling plays remotely with a technological aid). And that's also why they don't want cameras on sidelines.
What NE was guilty of, above all else, was arrogance. They ignored the rule much like you or me might ignore a speed limit. The thing is, an opposing coach complained, the story dropped in a rival and enormous media market, and that was it.
The Patriots are the first NFL dynasty I can think of that wins without fielding rosters full of future HOFers. Casual fans can't really understand why they win, so the "cheating" narrative connects (on top of the obvious, and understandable, "haterism" that success engenders).
But if you think there's no way something that had the hoopla of spygate could really only be about a minor technical infraction, well... look at politics. Look at how irrational and unserious people can be about politics, and then remember that politics, unlike football, actually matters!
Last edited by a moderator:
So if you were accused of murder when you didn't do it and found innocent and then were accused of murder again when you didn't do it and found guilty, you would have no right to question the second conviction?
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
Can you elaborate on this a little bit? I can see why people would feel that way about BB, but ive always felt people mostly disliked Brady because he is good looking, has more money than he can ever spend and married to a super model; and oh by the way he is lucky and just wins too damn much. I hear people complain that he sometimes whines to the ref too much etc, etc, and Ive always felt that people resent that he gets treated like he is perfect when he is not (no one is). However, he almost always says the right thing, towing the company line etc and rarely do I see or hear him being what I would consider arrogant.
The comment Brady made after the Bal game inviting the bal coaches to check the rule book (even though he was right) was imho a rare display of what could be considered arrogance, but I don't think he is someone who often acts arrogantly. I'm obviously biased and I sincerely don't see it, maybe you could give me some examples of his blatant arrogance from an NY pov? Particularly anything pre deflate farce (didn't say I wasn't arrogant
)
Last edited by a moderator:
If you're not a Pats fan, Brady is an arrogant ****. No question. What good does it do to tell you (a Pats fan) why?Can you elaborate on this a little bit? I can see why people would feel that way about BB, but ive always felt people mostly disliked Brady because he is good looking, has more money than he can ever spend and married to a super model; and oh by the way he is lucky and just wins too damn much. I hear people complain that he sometimes whines to the ref too much etc, etc, and Ive always felt that people resent that he gets treated like he is perfect when he is not (no one is). However, he almost always says the right thing, towing the company line etc and rarely do I see or hear him being what I would consider arrogant.
The comment Brady made after the Bal game inviting the bal coaches to check the rule book (even though he was right) was imho a rare display of what could be considered arrogance, but I don't think he is someone who often acts arrogantly. I'm obviously biased and I sincerely don't see it, maybe you could give me some examples of his blatant arrogance from an NY pov? Particularly anything pre deflate farce (didn't say I wasn't arrogant
If you're not a Pats fan, Brady is an arrogant ****. No question. What good does it do to tell you (a Pats fan) why?Can you elaborate on this a little bit? I can see why people would feel that way about BB, but ive always felt people mostly disliked Brady because he is good looking, has more money than he can ever spend and married to a super model; and oh by the way he is lucky and just wins too damn much. I hear people complain that he sometimes whines to the ref too much etc, etc, and Ive always felt that people resent that he gets treated like he is perfect when he is not (no one is). However, he almost always says the right thing, towing the company line etc and rarely do I see or hear him being what I would consider arrogant.
The comment Brady made after the Bal game inviting the bal coaches to check the rule book (even though he was right) was imho a rare display of what could be considered arrogance, but I don't think he is someone who often acts arrogantly. I'm obviously biased and I sincerely don't see it, maybe you could give me some examples of his blatant arrogance from an NY pov? Particularly anything pre deflate farce (didn't say I wasn't arrogant
HobbesAB
Footballguy
Interesting interview with Mort on this whole thing:
http://nesn.com/2015/08/christ-mortensen-nfl-investigating-deflategate-was-a-mistake/
http://nesn.com/2015/08/christ-mortensen-nfl-investigating-deflategate-was-a-mistake/
skinsrule05
Footballguy
No, the website is ridiculous because of why it was made. Patriots fans were arguing that their team did nothing wrong. Then once they realized they did cheat the argument turn to, so what everyone is doing it. That is basically the teenager reaction when they get caught doing something wrong.
Instead of arguing that all of the 500+ instances of cheating were equal they should have put the total punishment (fine +) for each. Total that up and see which team is the biggest cheaters. I bet even you can understand why they didn't do that.
I think that's kind of the point: that the Pats are being disproportionately punished.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
"We're only going to score 17 points?"Can you elaborate on this a little bit? I can see why people would feel that way about BB, but ive always felt people mostly disliked Brady because he is good looking, has more money than he can ever spend and married to a super model; and oh by the way he is lucky and just wins too damn much. I hear people complain that he sometimes whines to the ref too much etc, etc, and Ive always felt that people resent that he gets treated like he is perfect when he is not (no one is). However, he almost always says the right thing, towing the company line etc and rarely do I see or hear him being what I would consider arrogant.
The comment Brady made after the Bal game inviting the bal coaches to check the rule book (even though he was right) was imho a rare display of what could be considered arrogance, but I don't think he is someone who often acts arrogantly. I'm obviously biased and I sincerely don't see it, maybe you could give me some examples of his blatant arrogance from an NY pov? Particularly anything pre deflate farce (didn't say I wasn't arrogant
I'm not saying Tom Brady is a bad guy. My point of view on these matters is simply from the sports fan perspective. Brady's press conferences are full of smirks, false modesty and (in the case of the initial Deflate-gate one) feigned ignorance. And yes he whines to the refs more than any player in the NFL.
And, sure. of course there's some jealousy in the "hate" on Tom Brady. I remember being in the parking lot prior to a Jets-Pats game a few years back where the day before Brady stated how he hated the Jets and I joked how the word "hate" shouldn't be in hos vocabulary since he has all the money in the world and a (even richer) super model wife.
Being arrogant isn't necessarily a bad thing either - it's part of what makes the greats, great - the confidence and belief in themselves. My only point is that it rubs people the wrong way, and that's what makes the heat the team is taking that much sweeter to those outside the NE area.
I find it funny how Pat fans circle the wagons over this - I also think they live in a state of delusion at times. The Pats pulled some shady crap (once again) and were caught. Sure the punishment is likely excessive, but the shenanigans that surround this organization and they way they handled this controversy from the onset isn't going to make anyone feel sorry for them for being punished to harshly for their "crime".
Once again, instead of making themselves look foolish with their excuses, finger-pointing, matrydom and anger the Patriot supporters should just laugh it off and enjoy their Super Bowls. Did it matter that their wins are now tainted in the eyes of many while you were watching the games with family and friends and celebrating championships?
Baloney Sandwich
Footballguy
I think this is a really good piece from Charles Pierce, funny stuff regardless of where you sit on this issue.
Patriot Games: Deflategate and the Golden Boy That Never Washttp://grantland.com/the-triangle/patriot-games-deflategate-and-the-golden-boy-that-never-was/
Woody Allen once remarked that August is the month in which psychiatrists customarily go on vacation. “Every summer,” he pointed out, “New York is full of people who are crazy until Labor Day.” The same, it seems, holds for the federal court system. Submitted for your approval: one Richard Berman, presiding judge in a federal district court in Manhattan. To Berman’s eternal misfortune, he has been handed the ongoing burlesque pitting the National Football League and its commissioner against the New England Patriots and their quarterback regarding the inflation of the footballs in last year’s AFC Championship Game. To his eternal credit, however, Berman already sounds pretty fed up with the whole business.
“While this litigation is ongoing, it is appropriate (and helpful) for all counsel and all parties to this case to tone down their rhetoric,” Berman wrote. “The earth is already sufficiently scorched.”
Translation: “I didn’t spend three years in law school to preside over this bucket of manure. Get your act together, the both of you.”
Bravo to Judge Berman for being the only person entangled in this endless fandango who is making any sense at all. Since our last episode, NFL commissioner Roger Goodell upheld the four-game suspension of Tom Brady handed down by NFL commissioner Roger Goodell1 some time during the Mesozoic Era, thereby endorsing the judicial philosophy of Lewis Carroll. New England owner Robert Kraft, who, in May, had accepted a huge fine and the loss of first- and fourth-round draft picks — after previously demanding an apology from practically everyone back in January — returned belatedly to the parapets and intimated that Goodell had double-crossed him. The whole mess ended up in federal court, where it had been headed from the jump. Enter Judge Berman, who may be wondering at this point why he threw away that flier from the truck-driving academy 30 years ago.
Meanwhile, Goodell’s strong support of the NFL’s own decision gave every preening moralist within reach of a keyboard a chance to yell about “cheating” and what ever can we tell the children? More than a few people advised Brady to suck it up and take the penalty because you can’t fight City Hall, overlooking the fact that, in this particular case, City Hall is presided over by a guy who couldn’t pour juice out of his loafers if the instructions were written on the heel.
And, then, training camp started, and Brady returned to the practice field and was treated like the pope on parade. Early on, he made a nifty one-handed grab of a pass from wideout Julian Edelman, and it got YouTube’d to a fine powder within minutes. Of course, it is interesting that Brady, like all suspended players, is going to be “allowed” to practice with his teammates, and “allowed” to play in the annual exercise in barefaced consumer fraud that is the NFL’s preseason. I’m sure the league only has his best interests at heart.
For the past week, as I watched what had been a comical episode turn into Armageddon-with-seltzer-bottles, I wondered where all of this Golden Boy stuff had come from. (I have a certain interest in Brady and his career.) The criticism of Brady over what he may or may not have ordered done to the footballs in January seemed so wildly out of proportion to the alleged offense — which, again, is tantamount to a hockey stick with an excessively curved blade, or Whitey Ford’s entire repertoire of scuffballs — that I rapidly came to the conclusion that Brady was being pilloried for what other people had made out of him.
In the entire year I spent rummaging through his existence, I never heard one person accuse Brady of arrogance or any sense of entitlement. He has had a good life and a great career. Now, though, not only are we hearing about deflated footballs, but about demolished cell phones and, on one especially rancid local sports-radio station, whatever “else” the league might “have” on him. Peggy Noonan once opined, “Is it irresponsible to speculate? It is irresponsible not to,” thereby neatly turning 100 years of journalism on its head until its brains ran out of its ears. That is where Tom Brady is now, thanks to a piddling bit of gamesmanship and a league that can’t get out of its own way.
Let us stipulate for the moment that Brady handing his cell phone over to his assistant to be destroyed isn’t very good optics. (Jesus, Tom, you have to delegate that job?) But consider the entire arc of events: The Colts narcthe Patriots out to the league office. Because the NFL, in its judicial functions, combines the investigative genius of Inspector Clouseau with the good faith of a Gaboon viper, the Patriots are caught, and leaks occur that make the situation seem worse than it is. A preposterous feeding frenzy starts. New England wins the Super Bowl. Brady plays a spectacular game. Goodell hands down his punishment via lackey. Brady appeals. Goodell announces that he will hear the appeal. The NFL issues an in-house report that is a masterpiece of prosecutorial ambiguity. Goodell upholds the original punishment. The story about the “destroyed” cell phone is released at precisely the right moment to make the original offense, whatever the hell it was, look worse.
OK, now read all of that again and imagine that you are Tom Brady. Why in the name of Baal would you trust these people with your personal phone records? Why would you believe any of their assurances concerning your privacy? Given these people, shouldn’t you exhaust all legal avenues before taking whatever consequences there are? That’s all Brady — and, it should be said, the NFLPA — is doing now. Brady doesn’t owe anything to his image, or to the caricature that exists of him in the minds of other people. If he thinks he has a case, then he has a perfect right to pursue it for as long as he wants. This may even be strategically deft, since history tells us that the longer something goes on, the more chances that Goodell and the NFL will have to make a dog’s breakfast out of themselves.
I remain convinced that the footballs in the AFC Championship Game were tailored to Brady’s specifications, just as all the footballs used in every game are tailored to the specifications of the competing quarterbacks. (That was the whole point of the letter, signed nine years ago by Brady, and by Peyton Manning, among other quarterbacks,requesting that offenses be allowed to use their own footballs when on the road. That the NFL didn’t find this proposal laughable is the ur-screwup in this whole affair.) I believe that Brady knows what his own specifications are, and that he communicated them to the people handling the footballs. Period. Everything else is stuff and nonsense and empty air. Everything else is another measure of how much in the NFL has passed from the control of the commissioner and into the hands of the various plutocrats for whom he works. He can’t keep one set of owners from squealing on another owner? He can’t keep his franchises from acting on ancient grudges that don’t matter a damn to anyone except the walking egos involved in them? Ever since January, this endless, misbegotten hootenanny has been more than a test of Tom Brady’s character. It’s been a test of Roger Goodell’s leadership, and he has proved to be the Gregory Hines of stepping on hidden rakes.
I have no idea what the ultimate outcome of this will be, and I don’t even really care anymore. I’m with Judge Berman. Everybody just shut up for a while, please. But I have no confidence that this view will prevail. It’s summer, after all. Everybody’s just going to be crazy until Labor Day.
Patriot Games: Deflategate and the Golden Boy That Never Washttp://grantland.com/the-triangle/patriot-games-deflategate-and-the-golden-boy-that-never-was/
Woody Allen once remarked that August is the month in which psychiatrists customarily go on vacation. “Every summer,” he pointed out, “New York is full of people who are crazy until Labor Day.” The same, it seems, holds for the federal court system. Submitted for your approval: one Richard Berman, presiding judge in a federal district court in Manhattan. To Berman’s eternal misfortune, he has been handed the ongoing burlesque pitting the National Football League and its commissioner against the New England Patriots and their quarterback regarding the inflation of the footballs in last year’s AFC Championship Game. To his eternal credit, however, Berman already sounds pretty fed up with the whole business.
“While this litigation is ongoing, it is appropriate (and helpful) for all counsel and all parties to this case to tone down their rhetoric,” Berman wrote. “The earth is already sufficiently scorched.”
Translation: “I didn’t spend three years in law school to preside over this bucket of manure. Get your act together, the both of you.”
Bravo to Judge Berman for being the only person entangled in this endless fandango who is making any sense at all. Since our last episode, NFL commissioner Roger Goodell upheld the four-game suspension of Tom Brady handed down by NFL commissioner Roger Goodell1 some time during the Mesozoic Era, thereby endorsing the judicial philosophy of Lewis Carroll. New England owner Robert Kraft, who, in May, had accepted a huge fine and the loss of first- and fourth-round draft picks — after previously demanding an apology from practically everyone back in January — returned belatedly to the parapets and intimated that Goodell had double-crossed him. The whole mess ended up in federal court, where it had been headed from the jump. Enter Judge Berman, who may be wondering at this point why he threw away that flier from the truck-driving academy 30 years ago.
Meanwhile, Goodell’s strong support of the NFL’s own decision gave every preening moralist within reach of a keyboard a chance to yell about “cheating” and what ever can we tell the children? More than a few people advised Brady to suck it up and take the penalty because you can’t fight City Hall, overlooking the fact that, in this particular case, City Hall is presided over by a guy who couldn’t pour juice out of his loafers if the instructions were written on the heel.
And, then, training camp started, and Brady returned to the practice field and was treated like the pope on parade. Early on, he made a nifty one-handed grab of a pass from wideout Julian Edelman, and it got YouTube’d to a fine powder within minutes. Of course, it is interesting that Brady, like all suspended players, is going to be “allowed” to practice with his teammates, and “allowed” to play in the annual exercise in barefaced consumer fraud that is the NFL’s preseason. I’m sure the league only has his best interests at heart.
For the past week, as I watched what had been a comical episode turn into Armageddon-with-seltzer-bottles, I wondered where all of this Golden Boy stuff had come from. (I have a certain interest in Brady and his career.) The criticism of Brady over what he may or may not have ordered done to the footballs in January seemed so wildly out of proportion to the alleged offense — which, again, is tantamount to a hockey stick with an excessively curved blade, or Whitey Ford’s entire repertoire of scuffballs — that I rapidly came to the conclusion that Brady was being pilloried for what other people had made out of him.
In the entire year I spent rummaging through his existence, I never heard one person accuse Brady of arrogance or any sense of entitlement. He has had a good life and a great career. Now, though, not only are we hearing about deflated footballs, but about demolished cell phones and, on one especially rancid local sports-radio station, whatever “else” the league might “have” on him. Peggy Noonan once opined, “Is it irresponsible to speculate? It is irresponsible not to,” thereby neatly turning 100 years of journalism on its head until its brains ran out of its ears. That is where Tom Brady is now, thanks to a piddling bit of gamesmanship and a league that can’t get out of its own way.
Let us stipulate for the moment that Brady handing his cell phone over to his assistant to be destroyed isn’t very good optics. (Jesus, Tom, you have to delegate that job?) But consider the entire arc of events: The Colts narcthe Patriots out to the league office. Because the NFL, in its judicial functions, combines the investigative genius of Inspector Clouseau with the good faith of a Gaboon viper, the Patriots are caught, and leaks occur that make the situation seem worse than it is. A preposterous feeding frenzy starts. New England wins the Super Bowl. Brady plays a spectacular game. Goodell hands down his punishment via lackey. Brady appeals. Goodell announces that he will hear the appeal. The NFL issues an in-house report that is a masterpiece of prosecutorial ambiguity. Goodell upholds the original punishment. The story about the “destroyed” cell phone is released at precisely the right moment to make the original offense, whatever the hell it was, look worse.
OK, now read all of that again and imagine that you are Tom Brady. Why in the name of Baal would you trust these people with your personal phone records? Why would you believe any of their assurances concerning your privacy? Given these people, shouldn’t you exhaust all legal avenues before taking whatever consequences there are? That’s all Brady — and, it should be said, the NFLPA — is doing now. Brady doesn’t owe anything to his image, or to the caricature that exists of him in the minds of other people. If he thinks he has a case, then he has a perfect right to pursue it for as long as he wants. This may even be strategically deft, since history tells us that the longer something goes on, the more chances that Goodell and the NFL will have to make a dog’s breakfast out of themselves.
I remain convinced that the footballs in the AFC Championship Game were tailored to Brady’s specifications, just as all the footballs used in every game are tailored to the specifications of the competing quarterbacks. (That was the whole point of the letter, signed nine years ago by Brady, and by Peyton Manning, among other quarterbacks,requesting that offenses be allowed to use their own footballs when on the road. That the NFL didn’t find this proposal laughable is the ur-screwup in this whole affair.) I believe that Brady knows what his own specifications are, and that he communicated them to the people handling the footballs. Period. Everything else is stuff and nonsense and empty air. Everything else is another measure of how much in the NFL has passed from the control of the commissioner and into the hands of the various plutocrats for whom he works. He can’t keep one set of owners from squealing on another owner? He can’t keep his franchises from acting on ancient grudges that don’t matter a damn to anyone except the walking egos involved in them? Ever since January, this endless, misbegotten hootenanny has been more than a test of Tom Brady’s character. It’s been a test of Roger Goodell’s leadership, and he has proved to be the Gregory Hines of stepping on hidden rakes.
I have no idea what the ultimate outcome of this will be, and I don’t even really care anymore. I’m with Judge Berman. Everybody just shut up for a while, please. But I have no confidence that this view will prevail. It’s summer, after all. Everybody’s just going to be crazy until Labor Day.
skinsrule05
Footballguy
Some things are tough to put into words. Use this baseball analogy:Can you elaborate on this a little bit? I can see why people would feel that way about BB, but ive always felt people mostly disliked Brady because he is good looking, has more money than he can ever spend and married to a super model; and oh by the way he is lucky and just wins too damn much. I hear people complain that he sometimes whines to the ref too much etc, etc, and Ive always felt that people resent that he gets treated like he is perfect when he is not (no one is). However, he almost always says the right thing, towing the company line etc and rarely do I see or hear him being what I would consider arrogant.
The comment Brady made after the Bal game inviting the bal coaches to check the rule book (even though he was right) was imho a rare display of what could be considered arrogance, but I don't think he is someone who often acts arrogantly. I'm obviously biased and I sincerely don't see it, maybe you could give me some examples of his blatant arrogance from an NY pov? Particularly anything pre deflate farce (didn't say I wasn't arrogant
Jeter had all of the same qualities that you listed as reasons to hate Brady, but people loved Jeter. A-rod (ignore his cheating, I am not making that comparison) had the similar qualities but he was disliked both inside and out of NYC. And that was before his cheating came out. Brady has always been viewed from outside of Pats fans similar to how the outside world viewed A-rod.
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
You made some fair points and some not so fair ones but good enuf, i'm not going to nitpick here. I understand Patriots fans circling the wagons around their team and around Brady (ive been doing it since the Brady vs Bledsoe debate) and I understand the detractors occasional snipe and snide remarks. However I just don't get the passion and obsessiveness with some of the detractors. If Brady had raped or beaten a woman or child or killed someone I could understand it. Yet so many have no problem overlooking the most reprehensible behavior when it suits them and then feigning moral outrage over nonsense because hurting others apparently makes them feel better. If one of my favorite players did something like that I would hide under a rock and I sure as heck wouldn't (on an almost daily basis) be bashing other qbs on a mb."We're only going to score 17 points?"Can you elaborate on this a little bit? I can see why people would feel that way about BB, but ive always felt people mostly disliked Brady because he is good looking, has more money than he can ever spend and married to a super model; and oh by the way he is lucky and just wins too damn much. I hear people complain that he sometimes whines to the ref too much etc, etc, and Ive always felt that people resent that he gets treated like he is perfect when he is not (no one is). However, he almost always says the right thing, towing the company line etc and rarely do I see or hear him being what I would consider arrogant.
The comment Brady made after the Bal game inviting the bal coaches to check the rule book (even though he was right) was imho a rare display of what could be considered arrogance, but I don't think he is someone who often acts arrogantly. I'm obviously biased and I sincerely don't see it, maybe you could give me some examples of his blatant arrogance from an NY pov? Particularly anything pre deflate farce (didn't say I wasn't arrogant
I'm not saying Tom Brady is a bad guy. My point of view on these matters is simply from the sports fan perspective. Brady's press conferences are full of smirks, false modesty and (in the case of the initial Deflate-gate one) feigned ignorance. And yes he whines to the refs more than any player in the NFL.
And, sure. of course there's some jealousy in the "hate" on Tom Brady. I remember being in the parking lot prior to a Jets-Pats game a few years back where the day before Brady stated how he hated the Jets and I joked how the word "hate" shouldn't be in hos vocabulary since he has all the money in the world and a (even richer) super model wife.
Being arrogant isn't necessarily a bad thing either - it's part of what makes the greats, great - the confidence and belief in themselves. My only point is that it rubs people the wrong way, and that's what makes the heat the team is taking that much sweeter to those outside the NE area.
I find it funny how Pat fans circle the wagons over this - I also think they live in a state of delusion at times. The Pats pulled some shady crap (once again) and were caught. Sure the punishment is likely excessive, but the shenanigans that surround this organization and they way they handled this controversy from the onset isn't going to make anyone feel sorry for them for being punished to harshly for their "crime".
Once again, instead of making themselves look foolish with their excuses, finger-pointing, matrydom and anger the Patriot supporters should just laugh it off and enjoy their Super Bowls. Did it matter that their wins are now tainted in the eyes of many while you were watching the games with family and friends and celebrating championships?
Its all good I guess and I certainly have enjoyed all their SB wins; nothing can take those away. I believe time will show the spygate and deflate hate nonsense to be the tempests in a teapot that they were. I also have little doubt that even when\if Brady wins his 5th SB there will always be some who will never give him the credit and respect he has earned. However, imho that will always say much more about the pettiness of those people than it does about Brady.
Thanks for the reasonable response
Last edited by a moderator:
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
I hesitate to respond and get into a tat for tat, but maybe just this once.Some things are tough to put into words. Use this baseball analogy:Can you elaborate on this a little bit? I can see why people would feel that way about BB, but ive always felt people mostly disliked Brady because he is good looking, has more money than he can ever spend and married to a super model; and oh by the way he is lucky and just wins too damn much. I hear people complain that he sometimes whines to the ref too much etc, etc, and Ive always felt that people resent that he gets treated like he is perfect when he is not (no one is). However, he almost always says the right thing, towing the company line etc and rarely do I see or hear him being what I would consider arrogant.
The comment Brady made after the Bal game inviting the bal coaches to check the rule book (even though he was right) was imho a rare display of what could be considered arrogance, but I don't think he is someone who often acts arrogantly. I'm obviously biased and I sincerely don't see it, maybe you could give me some examples of his blatant arrogance from an NY pov? Particularly anything pre deflate farce (didn't say I wasn't arrogant
Jeter had all of the same qualities that you listed as reasons to hate Brady, but people loved Jeter. A-rod (ignore his cheating, I am not making that comparison) had the similar qualities but he was disliked both inside and out of NYC. And that was before his cheating came out. Brady has always been viewed from outside of Pats fans similar to how the outside world viewed A-rod.
1. Jeter played for the home team of the media capital of the world, not against; HUGE difference.
2. Jeter didn't leave said team at the alter and then go play for a team that dominated said team for the last 15 years.
3. Having said that, much like the Pats, the Yankees (including Jeter) were hated by many when they were winning every year. People don't much care now that they don't dominate and that's kind of the point, when you win too much people resent it and much of the animosity stems from that more than anything else.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Plenty of people "hated" Derek Jeter.Some things are tough to put into words. Use this baseball analogy:Can you elaborate on this a little bit? I can see why people would feel that way about BB, but ive always felt people mostly disliked Brady because he is good looking, has more money than he can ever spend and married to a super model; and oh by the way he is lucky and just wins too damn much. I hear people complain that he sometimes whines to the ref too much etc, etc, and Ive always felt that people resent that he gets treated like he is perfect when he is not (no one is). However, he almost always says the right thing, towing the company line etc and rarely do I see or hear him being what I would consider arrogant.
The comment Brady made after the Bal game inviting the bal coaches to check the rule book (even though he was right) was imho a rare display of what could be considered arrogance, but I don't think he is someone who often acts arrogantly. I'm obviously biased and I sincerely don't see it, maybe you could give me some examples of his blatant arrogance from an NY pov? Particularly anything pre deflate farce (didn't say I wasn't arrogant
Jeter had all of the same qualities that you listed as reasons to hate Brady, but people loved Jeter. A-rod (ignore his cheating, I am not making that comparison) had the similar qualities but he was disliked both inside and out of NYC. And that was before his cheating came out. Brady has always been viewed from outside of Pats fans similar to how the outside world viewed A-rod.
Old Smiley
Footballguy
Well, I'm from Calgary, and I'm old enough to remember when the Oilers were tearing it up. I know that feeling where you hate everything about that lousy stinking club. The smirks, the fake humility, the cheap shot artists, the getting all the calls, the "where the #### did they find that Finnish guy, #######it!!"
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Here's an example the misdirection/finger-pointing tactics that Pat fans would be better off leaving behind.
NO ONE thinks what Brady did is more reprehensible than rape or beating a child. NO ONE. Those actions also have absolutely nothing to do with this situation either.
The NFL has more of an interest in protecting it's image of fair play and the integrity of what takes place on the field than it does in avoiding the negative PR that some of the bad people that play this game may bring it. It's only natural since one thing can bring the league down to it's knees while the other is a temporary black eye that quickly fades away with time. Trying to argue that Greg Hardy and Tom Brady getting the same 4 game suspensions somehow tells the world that the NFL thinks beating a woman and letting some air out of the football are the same level of reprehensible is a disingenuous argument at best.
Old Smiley
Footballguy
My beef is that there's nothing principled about either response. They are both reactions to public perception. Ergo... equal.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Seriously? Assuming that a Pats ball boy actually took balls that passed a referees inspection into a bathroom and used a needle to deflate them in order to please his team's QB that demanded that from him - you don't see any issue with that?
Now one can think that didn't happen (and maybe you'd be right) but the punishment levied is based on a belief that that is what occurred. While the penalty is arguably excessive, in fairness that's a pretty serious violation on the integrity of the game (and I'm one that thinks the air pressure likely had little to no affect on the game at all). It's the principal behind such a blatant brazen act to violate a rule to gain an advantage.
I'm not sure the punishment is levied on the belief that occurred. Or maybe it is. Actually I'm not sure. Which is part of the problem really.
skinsrule05
Footballguy
Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the punishment was partially due to the act and partially due to the fact that Brady obstructed the investigation.
biju
Footballguy
How is it that after 263 pages there is still this great desire to separate the action from the cover-up when it comes to the punishment. If you're in the real world and you try to evade arrest you do realize you get an additional punishment, right? This isn't the either/or argument I keep seeing...
My read is that the punishment for the (alleged?) act was 4 games. The "added punishment" for the coverup was simply "no reduction on appeal."
Somehow the NFL, in its Keystone Cops justice system, has created the expected norm that all suspensions get reduced on appeal unless aggrevated. Bell got his reduced why? Hardy got his reduced why? There never seems to be any compelling reason for the reduced suspensions, but they do create the situation in which "not reducing" is seen as an added penalty.
I did not understand at the time, nor can I comprehend now, how the players could have been dumb enough to agree to all this in the CBA...
Somehow the NFL, in its Keystone Cops justice system, has created the expected norm that all suspensions get reduced on appeal unless aggrevated. Bell got his reduced why? Hardy got his reduced why? There never seems to be any compelling reason for the reduced suspensions, but they do create the situation in which "not reducing" is seen as an added penalty.
I did not understand at the time, nor can I comprehend now, how the players could have been dumb enough to agree to all this in the CBA...
Where did I hear it was 1 game for the act, 3 for lack of cooperation. He's lucky he didn't get 15 for lack of cooperation, etc.
Old Smiley
Footballguy
ProFootballTalk @ProFootballTalk 20m20 minutes ago
Per source, Judge has directed NFL-NFLPA to submit paperwork not under seal. It means Brady transcript eventually will be public.
Per source, Judge has directed NFL-NFLPA to submit paperwork not under seal. It means Brady transcript eventually will be public.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
My understanding -- and this could easily be wrong -- is that the league often reduces penalties on appeal when the player shows contrition. Brady obviously opted not to do this, so no reduction.
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
I wasn't trying to make the point (for example) that Steelers QB Ben Rothlisberger getting 4 games for raping a woman tells the world the NFL thinks raping a woman is the same as maybe, possibly, being aware of letting a little air out of a football. All though the casual nfl fan might infer just that; similar to believing the narrative they were fed by espn etc and the nfl about this whole psi nonsense.
The point I tried to make is when the QB for your team is as big a dirtbag as the Steelers qb is (or a murderer like Ray Lewis), maybe, just maybe you aren't the best person to be leading the stone throwing mob? Maybe, some fans (not the nfl), but team fans ought to think about their own glass house before tossing all those rocks. Football is a game, rape, murder, beating women & children are real; if your star QB or LB is a rapist or murderer, maybe you ought to be embarrassed enuf to realize that you really aren't in the best position to throw stones at tom brady. Then again maybe not.....
treat88
Footballguy
Since you are beating this drum so hard, I will respond specifically. As a Steelers fan and a father of daughters, Roethlisberger's behavior, whether he was formally charged or not, absolutely diminishes my ability to enjoy any success he might achieve. I think he deserves/deserved any and all vitriol thrown his way. I still root for the team, but I am certainly not a fan of BRs. I don't think it's mutually exclusive to be both a fan of a specific team and to also acknowledge the checkered past that team might have both on an individual or on an organizational level. Every team has their issues. I'm not embarrassed personally by BR's behavior simply because I grew up rooting for the team. I can analyze the reality of both he and Brady's situations without "throwing stones".NE_REVIVAL said:
That said, the significant difference that I don't think has been clearly recognized on your part is that none of the repugnant behavior that BR (or any others mentioned as being involved in off field behavior issues) engaged in has an impact on the outcome of the games they are involved in. BR was involved in a gross situation and behaved awfully, but none of that impacts what the scoreboard says when the clock runs out on his team.
What the Pats, and in this case Brady, have been accused of does. No matter how minor an issue, nor how small a competitive advantage might be gained from what they are accused of, their behavior does allow people to call into question the veracity of the outcome of their games. There's no moral soapbox involved in pointing out that both incidents the Pats have been uniquely punished for had the potential to affect not only a single play within a game, but the entire outcome of the game. The extent of the realistic impact the behaviors in question might have is open to debate, but the potential that they had an impact isn't. Additionally, just like in BR's case, it opens the question of, if they have been caught doing this, what else have they done that they haven't been caught doing?
Rape, domestic violence, DUI, etc. are unequivocally morally worse than anything the Pats or Brady have been accused of. Not even debatable, there is no moral equivalency. However, none of those issues make me wonder about the outcome of the games BR or those other individuals mentioned have been involved in unlike what the Pats and Brady have been accused of.
Is that a fair response?
skinsrule05
Footballguy
Instead of saying this you could have said, "I refer to Patriots answer number 2".NE_REVIVAL said:
Answer number one is when they try to attack the science of the PSIs. Once they realize Brady is guilty they move onto answer number two which is saying other teams/players have done bad things so they shouldn't be allowed to criticize Brady for doing bad things. Then they flow right into the patriots fan website of www.yourteamcheats.com.
After 263 pages it has become very predictable.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
E-mail sent from the Ravens to the Colts prior to the AFCCG:
Sounds like someone should have read the rule book.
Last edited by a moderator:
Old Smiley
Footballguy
Reading the CROSS/SNYDER/REISNER part. Pretty cool.
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
Wells actually says in testimony that he is not claiming that Brady directed the ballboys to do anything. I'm confused about what he's being punished for.
BroadwayG
Footballguy
biju
Footballguy
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
Yeah, I think that is a pretty fair response and appreciate you providing it. I don't think I have seen you post in this thread and wasn't directing my earlier post(s) toward you and most steeler fans (or the vast majority who aren't throwing stones). You might be the 1st in this thread to acknowledge what BR did and the conflict it presents when rooting for him and your team; again I appreciate it. As for the consequences and vitriol BR received it almost seems as if it never happened.
I concede the distinction you make regarding on field and off field is very pertinent and certainly valid. Sticking to the glass houses theme and shifting to the on field "effect the game" stuff I would like to follow up and sincerely ask your honest answer to the following 2 questions. 1. Does the Steelers alleged rampant use of steroids in any way diminish the 70s titles or accomplishments? 2. Bradshaw bragged about cheating and the steelers doing far worse to footballs in his book, does that in any way diminish their titles and or accomplishments? Personally I don't think much of it, except when I am in a rock fight
but I am curious to hear what you might think about it. TIA
Last edited by a moderator:
G
General Tso
Guest
That's the big news today. .http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/04/ravens-assistant-alerted-colts-to-issue-with-footballs/#commentsI said from day one in here that this was a setup job that was kicked off by the Ravens. There's a couple of people in here that should be eating a bit of crow on that one. I remember being called paranoid, amongst other names.
Harbaugh is a lying little #####. He looked Bob Costas right in the eye and lied right through his teeth in theSuperbowl pregame. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/01/john-harbaugh-says-he-had-no-role-in-deflategate/
Last edited:
treat88
Footballguy
I don't know man. It's so tough to compare eras. In many ways they are as much an apples and oranges comparison as on and off field behavior comparisons are. JFK was a great president, but he got away with things the media would crucify our current president for.Yeah, I think that is a pretty fair response and appreciate you providing it. I don't think I have seen you post in this thread and wasn't directing my earlier post(s) toward you and most steeler fans (or the vast majority who aren't throwing stones). You might be the 1st in this thread to acknowledge what BR did and the conflict it presents when rooting for him and your team; again I appreciate it. As for the consequences and vitriol BR received it almost seems as if it never happened.
I concede the distinction you make regarding on field and off field is very pertinent and certainly valid. Sticking to the glass houses theme and shifting to the on field "effect the game" stuff I would like to follow up and sincerely ask your honest answer to the following 2 questions. 1. Does the Steelers alleged rampant use of steroids in any way diminish the 70s titles or accomplishments? 2. Bradshaw bragged about cheating and the steelers doing far worse to footballs in his book, does that in any way diminish their titles and or accomplishments? Personally I don't think much of it, except when I am in a rock fight
I will try to answer your questions.
1) Do I wish that there were no allegations of Steelers steroid use in the 70's? Obviously given today's environment and thought on the topic, yes, I would. But, as so many have pointed out in this thread it wasn't illegal at the time. They didn't have all the access to the information we have today in regards to negative health consequences. I can't fault the guys for trying the latest and greatest if there are no negatives out there to make them question it. If we found out multi vitamins were ruining our livers and causing enlarged hearts 40 years from now would I knock today's multivitamin users? Probably not. Additionally, I tend to think the use of steroids wasn't limited to the Steelers alone in that era. In context, no, I don't think it impacts the way Steelers teams of that era should be viewed is the bottom line. In rock throwing contests, I understand why it comes up.
2) I will freely admit, I'm not specifically sure of what Bradshaw claimed and I don't know how the football psi rules have evolved. If they were doctoring footballs post inspection and there were rules in place governing that at the time, I think it is about as big a deal then as it is now. That is to say, not really a big deal other than it would have opened them to all the same questions that the Pats are now open to. What has changed is the magnitude of interest and money related to the transgressions. I have zero doubt that back "in the day" there was all kinds of envelope pushing if not outright breaking of the rules. As the level of interest and scrutiny have increased it takes progressively smaller and smaller transgressions to be a big deal because they hopefully become much more isolated instances. For the record, I don't think there is any competitive advantage conferred by a slightly under football then or now, but for the record also I think it is a far more substantial transgression in today's environment than it was in the 70's.
Really I think part of being a fan of a team is being able to embrace, enjoy, and laugh about the history and colorful characters both good and bad that make up that team's legacy. The Steelers have had and still have some scummy players on their rosters, just like every other team in the league. I don't think BR tarnishes the Steelers any more than AH does the Pats in that respect. The Steelers have had some truly great players both on and off the field, as has every other team in the league. They are all just part of the individual stories that make up the team's history. I like being a fan of the Steelers because of the entire breadth of that history, good and bad. I'm sure you feel similarly about the Pats.
I do think repeated organizational attempts to circumvent the rules, no matter how small, in today's environment begs the questions of what else has happened and what don't we know. It opens the Pats up to questions they shouldn't have to answer because they have had a dominant run with some truly great players and football minds involved. Personally, I respect the hell out of what Kraft and BB have orchestrated. They are a great adversary and have had my team's number for a pretty good stretch. But, they have also opened themselves up to these questions that are unique to them and the era they play in. I think the questions are fair and should be addressed without deflection.
