TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
The bigger takeaway here is that RB’s are more concerned with preserving themselves than bolstering their market as they draw closer to free agency. Content to swap short term financial bonanzas for long term security.
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RB Melvin Gordon, BAL (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter gianmarco
- Start date
Pipes
Footballguy
Too early to make that call imo. Salary cap going up quite a bit next year someone might pay him.
Pipes
Footballguy
No you can't. Chargers offense looked good week 1 looked like garbage against the Lions of all teams, week 2.
matttyl
Footballguy
No. Nor can I find any really credible source for that original $10m per year statement. I think it got said once and then got repeated over and over. What I read from the Chargers is that they offered "more than D Freeman's deal", which is only around $8.25m per year. They could have offered $8.3m per with only a year or something guaranteed....and it could have been written as an extension (so after this year at $5.6m) rather than starting fresh with that deal today.
Just Win Baby
Footballguy
You seem to have entered the thread without reading the previous discussion. All of this has already been discussed.
I am a Chargers fan, and I am not irate at all. What you may not understand is that the Chargers don't actually want to trade him... so they won't do it unless another team is willing to overpay... and no team is willing to do that, because they not only have to give up compensation to the Chargers but also presumably need to pay Gordon $13M per year with significant guaranteed money. No team will do that.
Miami's "wheeling and dealing" is irrelevant, because they have been trading players at much more valuable positions, i.e., LT and CB. Apples and oranges.
LMAO. Prior to 2018, Gordon was nothing more than a solid volume back in a great offense that inflated his accumulated statistics. The Chargers took a risk when they picked up his 5th year option last offseason. There was certainly no reason for them to do more than that before this year. Then, this year they offered him a significant contract and he declined because it wasn't a Johnson/Bell level contract. That's his choice, but don't blame the Chargers for that.
First of all, it is part of the CBA. Of course the team will operate within the rules to maximize their benefit. Secondly, it doesn't always work out this way. The Chargers picked up Jason Verrett's 5th year option in the 2017 offseason and ended up paying him $8.5M last season to not play a down. It is a risk for the team, especially with players with injury histories, like Verrett and Gordon.
Weebs210
Footballguy
That is a such a silly strawman argument that for whatever reason keeps being recycled. I'm siding with paying other players over RB's, I'm not saying owners should just pocket the money. Nobody has ever said players shouldn't get paid, its a question of what players at what position. Its not a complex topic, I don't see how the default counter argument to not paying a RB is siding with owners in any way.We're not going to agree. They take a lot of abuse absorbing tackles and shots and things go on underneath those piles you don't want to think about. I think it's horrific the way they are squeezing all th ebest of the RBs and some teams have opted not to pay them. They'll shell out $30M for a QB that hasn't won many playoff games or reached a Super Bowl but they have to squeeze RBs to the point of where Lev Bell felt he had to go.
A RB running in the last year of his contract in the NFL is a huge risk for any player. An ACL pop and career $$$ contract is over. Big Ben was given $45M this year...your witness council
I'm not wanting to pick a fight, we can feel differently but I don't really side with owners of these teams on ANYTHING, but I understand to enjoy the NFL at its best you have to mentally think the owners are good guys...they're NOT!
RB's simply have very little effect on wins and losses. The best RB in the NFL maybe swings 2 games, assuming his backups are awful.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I'm not trying to persuade or win some public opinion or court...Nothing you are posting changes my OPINION. You can whip up economics and fancy words but the facts are RBs are woefully underpaid for the amount of work they bring to the table. That's my opinion, I'll repeat that's my opinion Dave. I'm not trying to tear your ideas down so please refrain from just coming over the top because you want to rationalize what fits into the narrative in your head.
You can have the last word but many of my posts over a long time are more than just one or two sentences. There are 2 sides to every coin or debate and sometimes a lot more than 2-3. If you have it all figured out with a neat bow attached on top so be it. There's room for differing opinions.
I think it's shameful the way RBs are treated in the NFL when they bring a lot of the same joy and cheering and screaming that QBs and WRs generate.
The NFL is turning fans into believing it's OK to take a rookie and ride him like SeaBiscuit for 4, 5 and 6 years with team options and chew these guys up, spit them out and render them mostly worthless at the age of 26. And that whole narrative seems to bring a huge smile to some faces in here and I find it morally despicable.
Don't take it personal Dave, it's not you but there are lots of these posts in many threads and I think some of what I posted has merit when you walk thru the RB/Player's shoes.
-I don't care how many are available, who is coming out next year, there needs to be a standard of some kind for the position. QB-$30M-$35M, WR$15M+ and that range applies to a lot of the positions, and then you look at RB and just a few are North of $5M a season, many starting RBs are going at $500k a year.
-QBs are being asked to lead teams as rookies and 2nd year guys on small contracts but the gamble and the payoff is HUGE on their Year 3/4 Next contract where they are signing deals for $100M...meanwhile RBs get $500k and then are asked to play for very little if they make it to FA. For the amount of abuse and injuries they sustain it doesn't seem fair IMO.
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Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I'm so sorry Bolt, you are correct. I don't acknowledge the Los Angeles move subconsciously and I still see LAC sometimes and scratch my head.
My apologies
Lived in SoCal/Santa Monica for years, visited San Diego several times, very nice city.
You mentioned the Steelers and Chargers and think there is only a two game sample without Gordon or Bell. Um, okay.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Hey JWB, thanks for engaging with me
Everything San Diego has done says they don't want Mel Gordon long term...the fact they weren't sure about him and went the extra mile by extending him in Year 5 back in Year 3...you make it sound like they were sacrificing as an organization and I can't walk down that hall with you. We don't really know what the offer is...we've heard leaks about it here and there but things might be different behind closed doors. I've not heard Gordon publicly say what he was truly offered so I can't say with certainty as you seem to be able to do that everything is exactly as reported by the media who also isn't really in the room with these things, they are quoting unnamed sources...those usually mean Owner/GM is using media to pressure. Just my opinion.
San Diego is the one taking all the risk? I'm sorry, Los Angeles but some of this started in San Diego
I can't fault Gordon for using Bell money as a starting point when San Diego is trying to get not one but two first round picks. He is either worth it or not and if he's not than they look foolish. If he is a franchise back then they should have done a better job of managing this.
I view the 5th year option as another way NFL teams can control the largest chunk and best years of most NFL players. You view it more as if the players agreed to it in the CBA so it's all on them...again Owners have all the $$$ and they write the script, rules, games, not the players.
I do feel the NFL Players are taking some of what they see in the NBA. I think Steve Young's rant was perfect in setting up exactly what angers me. His head is exploding because players are forcing their way off teams, as I recall he wasn't very happy in Tampa and rumor is when Hugh Culverhouse called him he wouldn't even address him or say hello. I would be almost a 180 from the way Steve Young is framing things. I'm delighted players are pushing their way out of lousy and poorly run franchises. I'm not lumping LAC into the world of Miami.
Cheers!
Pipes
Footballguy
What are you talking about? Please re-read my post I didn't mention 2 games about the Steelers. The 2 games was about the Chargers...this year. The games without Gordon. I suppose you could look at the couple of starts Ekelar got last year when Gordon was out but it doesn't change my point the sample size with the Chargers is way too small to conclude their offense hasn't missed a beat.
As far as the Steelers goes yes Connor had a good season last year but I can't say for sure their offense was as dynamic with Connor vs Bell. Not saying Pittsburgh was wrong not paying Bell but that wasn't the argument.
I tend to agree with you about not paying RB's 10 million plus per year. That's too much for a position that's been devalued over the years. But that doesn't mean those offenses don't take a bit of hit when they lose one of those guys. Now is the hit 8-10 million dollars worth of salary different? Almost always no but to say those offenses don't miss those guys at all is a bit disingenuous.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I won't try and change your mind. I'm simply pointing out that your idea that an NFL player's pay should be determined by factors like the amount of pounding he takes, or his susceptibility to injury, or the length of his career just isn't grounded in reality.
An elite QB is both rarer and more valuable than an elite RB, and those are the things that determine pay, not which guy is making a the greater physical sacrifice.
Scooby1974
Footballguy
Why can't we all just get along? I blame Trump, or Obama!
Your original post mentioned both the Steelers and ChargersPipes said:
Please let me know what part of the Steelers offense dramatically suffered last year without Bell.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I personally believe the defense suffered without bell.Your original post mentioned both the Steelers and Chargers
Please let me know what part of the Steelers offense dramatically suffered last year without Bell.
It's not just about total yards or time of possession, it's the ability to extend drives when you need to. Bell is good as a runner and receiver when they need third downs, but he's also good at creating manageable second and third downs. And his receiving ability means teams have to defend the receivers differently. You can't blitz Ben if bell is back there waiting to see which gap is open. The opponent's whole defensive game plan changes when bell is out.
Credit Roethlisberger for putting up huge numbers while bell was out, but I guarantee there were plays that the offense would have tried with bell that they didn't even attempt with Conner/ Samuel, and plays that they did attempt that led to fewer yards on first or second and ultimately third down.
The defense had holes, but they covered a lot of those holes with their offense. Steelers fans don't see it that way and i don't blame them but it's what i believe as someone with no real dog in this fight.
I realize I'm being a touch pedantic, but it's crazy to me that nobody, even at major publications, can ever get the phrasing right.
There's no such thing as "an accrued season towards free agency." (Accrued seasons don't make you a free agent; not being under contract makes you a free agent. Accrued seasons determine what type of free agent you'll be once you're no longer under contract.) Even if there were such a thing as "an accrued season towards free agency," Gordon doesn't need any more of them. He's got four accrued seasons already, the most that can ever make a difference; so whenever he becomes a free agent, he'll be unrestricted whether or not ever gets another accrued season. If Gordon did need an accrued season, however, that ship has sailed. While players not under contract have to be on full-pay status for at least six games to earn an accrued season, players already under contract have to report no more than 30 days before the start of the regular season (in this case, August 6), so Gordon is unable to earn an accrued season in 2019 even if he shows up to practice tomorrow.
Also, accrued seasons are a completely separate issue from tolling.
(At least the article mentions tolling, which gives it a leg up on most other articles on this topic.)
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Third down conversion percentage:
2013 - 37.96%
2014 - 43.75%
2015 - 36.21%
2016 - 42.74%
2017 - 44.00%
2018 - 44.44%
Bell is so dynamic that the Steelers highest third down conversion percentage happened the year he held out.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Jackson 116 & 9, 0 TDs.
Ekeler 124 & 163, 4 TDs.
Total: 340 yards rushing, 172 yards receiving, 4 TDs, in 2 games.
Ekeler 124 & 163, 4 TDs.
Total: 340 yards rushing, 172 yards receiving, 4 TDs, in 2 games.
rockaction
Footballguy
I think the idiot who said that Ekeler wasn't ready to be a feature back in one of those threads really needs to take a look and...
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I'd just like to remind folks that Ekeler also had a costly turnover at the goal line that could impact his workload next week. Maybe he will get an opp to go airborne again or maybe they try Justin Jackson on a few red zone touches or potential TD plunges.I think the idiot who said that Ekeler wasn't ready to be a feature back in one of those threads really needs to take a look and...
Chargers Fumble Mistakes
"It was just a dumb move by me, a rookie mistake,” said Ekeler, a third-year pro. “You have to look at the situation. It’s first down, and we have three tries from the one-yard line, so I probably need to stay on the ground and pound it in there. I got too anxious, I tried to go up over the top, and someone punched it out.”
His words not mine and I'm sure most find it refreshing that he came right out and said these things.
rockaction
Footballguy
That was sort of tangential to me making fun of my own critical ability but it's a good anecdote nonetheless. Good for him for being a stand-up guy about it.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
habsfan
Footballguy
Tangential observation but I think it's interesting that a little kid starts playing football and if he's one of the best athletes on his team, he's likely a running back because the game at that level runs through the RB. And if he's good enough, that more or less keeps going, right up until he arrives at the NFL where he is told he's not particularly important or valuable (economically speaking). Must be difficult to process...
rockaction
Footballguy
It's rather stunning. That he is so easily replaceable and that his career will be, on average, so short must come as quite the shock and hard lesson.
InDitkaWeTrust
Footballguy
NFL offensive schemes have waffled back and forth between RB driven success and QB driven success throughout the years. The argument that they have very limited effect on W/L record is a product of watching NFL offenses in recent years. You're correct in that RIGHT NOW offenses are QB driven, but there was a time (and that time will very likely come again) when RBs dominate the touches and perceived value of a team.
HULLOBUDMAN
Footballguy
Circling this back to fantasy football, the Gordon owner in 2 of my leagues is 0-2. How long do you think it takes for the current Gordon to de-value Gordon to the point they will part with him at an low cost?
It seems like we are too close to the draft and the owners are still stung by the sunk cost of a 4th or 5th round pick.
Wait too long and they start look at the rumors of when he will come back and "I might as well keep him now since he will be back soon (by week 8/9)".
The fact that Eckler is killing it has to help those that are looking to acquire Gordon.
Any thoughts of acquiring Gordon? Optimal timing and cost?
It seems like we are too close to the draft and the owners are still stung by the sunk cost of a 4th or 5th round pick.
Wait too long and they start look at the rumors of when he will come back and "I might as well keep him now since he will be back soon (by week 8/9)".
The fact that Eckler is killing it has to help those that are looking to acquire Gordon.
Any thoughts of acquiring Gordon? Optimal timing and cost?
Twenty-Four Eighty-Four
Footballguy
If it were me, I go 0-4 and I'd look to get out if there is no positive news because I would need players now, or technically, 4 weeks ago.
I think Gordon's value is about as low as it should get right now. There have been reports that he plans to return sometime in Weeks 6-8. Financially, in makes sense to return even sooner than that.
So with each passing week, he ought to become a bit more valuable as the ratio of expected future games missed to expected games played shrinks.
I don't know whether public perception will catch on to that.
So with each passing week, he ought to become a bit more valuable as the ratio of expected future games missed to expected games played shrinks.
I don't know whether public perception will catch on to that.
HULLOBUDMAN
Footballguy
This was my line of thinking, especially with the owners being 0-2. What type of value to you think it takes to get him?
Deamon
Footballguy
Ekeler owners should be watching this closely and trying to start making a move to trade for Gordon.
Don't see why he would report between weeks 6-8. Don't think he has to report for a few weeks later.
TheWinz
Footballguy
Gordon will report when he chooses to. IMO it won't matter to Gordon what the Chargers record is, or how well the running game is doing. He is holding out for a payday in 2020, and any team taking him on already knows his skillset. He will not be auditioning in his final games of 2019, and can only hurt his value with injury. What can he accomplish in 2019 by reporting a minute before he has to, besides paychecks?
The only real question is how mad will Gordon be when he signs for well less than he thinks he deserves?
The only real question is how mad will Gordon be when he signs for well less than he thinks he deserves?
Deamon
Footballguy
Patrick the Pirate
Footballguy
Wouldn't you report if you were going to get $330K per game to be a backup?
He will have thrown $1M out the window after this week.
It looks like he's prepared to throw away much more than that, does it not?
If it were to end today I would have a different opinion...but there is every indication it will go the distance. At that point Ekeler is entrenched.
Deamon
Footballguy
I don't see it like this. He is 100 percent reporting if he can be the backup and make that much money. Chargers are going to use him and keep them both fresh. Ekeler definitely takes a hit when Gordon is back.
I believe my original statement was in response to the thought the making an FF trade move for Gordon. The presumption seems quite prevalent that he would step back in to his old job as if he were Zeke in Dallas.
With each productive Ekeler/Jackson game that is much less likely IMHO...personally I wouldn't pay a Gordon owner more than a Latavious Murray-type price. He may even drop to the wire once the bye weeks hit.
Just Win Baby
Footballguy
Has there actually been a holdout that ended up in arbitration or court since Joey Galloway's holdout in 1999?Walking Boot said:
Just Win Baby
Footballguy
Team Smokin'
Footballguy
Look, a few superstars started this "hold out" to protect themselves from injury and looking to land a big pay day because their window to make a boatload of cash is short, 7-10 years max for most. The second contract being even shorter, 3-5 max. And like Larry Fitzgerald said, "Be careful what you ask for." Things aren't all that rosey on other teams. AB wanted to be a Patriot the whole time I would imagine. He played his card to get what he wants. Lev Bell, who knows? Pittsburgh was right in the mix.
Lev Bell and AB are superstars, Flash Gordon isn't. He's good, but not that good. Now Ramsey joins the mix of complaining superstars. Personally, I'm not digging a player being bigger then the game. You sign a contract, stick to it!
I think the Chargers are correct in their decision to break off talks. They have two solid RB's right now.
As far as fantasy is concerned. Sure, I'd like to pry Gordon from an owner for a value LOL.
Lev Bell and AB are superstars, Flash Gordon isn't. He's good, but not that good. Now Ramsey joins the mix of complaining superstars. Personally, I'm not digging a player being bigger then the game. You sign a contract, stick to it!
I think the Chargers are correct in their decision to break off talks. They have two solid RB's right now.
As far as fantasy is concerned. Sure, I'd like to pry Gordon from an owner for a value LOL.
TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
The issue with Gordon now IMO isn't so much the 'if' he will come back question, but when he does, why would he simply return to previously normal value (for him)?
If the holdout has shown anything, it's that LAC has barely batted an eyelash in missing him - I'd almost think they are breathing a sigh of relief that he didn't accept their $10M/year offer. I don't think he comes back and usurps Eckler. Justin Jackson perhaps...but I don't see a scenario where once he's back in the fold, he's an RB1.
If the holdout has shown anything, it's that LAC has barely batted an eyelash in missing him - I'd almost think they are breathing a sigh of relief that he didn't accept their $10M/year offer. I don't think he comes back and usurps Eckler. Justin Jackson perhaps...but I don't see a scenario where once he's back in the fold, he's an RB1.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
What contract did Jalen Ramsey sign? Mel Gordon? Rookie deals that are by and large already set and slotted?
You can't hold players to their contracts coming out as rookies. It's tough to realize the NFL is a harsh machine that keeps on grinding up players for our amusement and entertainment but it's kinda true. If a QB was making $15M-$20M and was complaining that he wasn't getting $30M I would be lock n step with you but right now I'm on the players side heavy.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
TDW, thank you for coming out of your van today.
If LAC is breathing a huge sigh of relief and they might...just trade him!
I'm sorry but LAC is having their cake and eating it too in the media and NFL fans in general. I get it, the two backs they have on the roster are making folks forget about Gordon.
And what happens when he walks in Week 8? They are going to make Gordon the alpha back for the remainder of the season? His contract and whether he is staying or going will be a distraction.
I know we want to pat LAC on the back but even the fact it's LAC and not SDC should be enough to pull the curtain back on OZ here. I'm sorry but these NFL teams have figured out a way to convince their fans that it's OK to rape their own players of talent and not pay them fair market value.
Owners have taken a lot of the money they are piling into Brinks and shipping it to QBs, that has come at a cost to the RBs IMHO. "We don't need to pay them. we can just get a guy in the 4th and pay him $450k a year then let him go in Year 4/5 and get another." And there are just a handful of QBs with the resume to warrant $30M+ a season but that's not what is happening. Guys are getting large sums of money on the hope they pan out...
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brewer
Footballguy
Rape their own players? Please. Melvin Gordon is under contract to play professional football for north of 5 million dollars. If you want to argue that is below market value, you might be right, but the 10 million per year he was offered was certainly within market value.
Why all of the outrage for running backs by the way? Why don't Offensive and Defensive linemen deserve more? It can be argued that they take the most pounding in the NFL and have increased odds of CTE and ALS.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
And one more thing for those that think Gordon isn't all that good...
Last 3 seasons with missing almost a 1/4 of all 3 years...if I told you it would be 50 Rec, 1,500 total yds and 12-13 TDs you would run to get that guy in almost any league or format.
So when people just scoff this off like he isn't worth a dime, I have a hard time understanding that. Maybe LAC has the market on 3 quality RBs and that's fine but teams out there are struggling to run the football. Would Jax be better off with Mel Gordon vs Fournette? LAC isn't being creative, Gordon's camp was contacted by NFL teams but the asking price of 2 first rounders by LAC...it feels like a plantation owner who won't allow their contractual slave their freedom.
Last 3 seasons with missing almost a 1/4 of all 3 years...if I told you it would be 50 Rec, 1,500 total yds and 12-13 TDs you would run to get that guy in almost any league or format.
So when people just scoff this off like he isn't worth a dime, I have a hard time understanding that. Maybe LAC has the market on 3 quality RBs and that's fine but teams out there are struggling to run the football. Would Jax be better off with Mel Gordon vs Fournette? LAC isn't being creative, Gordon's camp was contacted by NFL teams but the asking price of 2 first rounders by LAC...it feels like a plantation owner who won't allow their contractual slave their freedom.
