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On this point - I made huge strides by changing my diet from a high carb to a high fat high protein diet. I also learned how to train in a fasted state. I went from relying on the gels, chews, etc every 45-60mins to using very little on race day.
With all due respect to Tri-man, I’m not sure you bonked. By this I’m referring to bonking technically meaning glycogen depletion. With your nutrition and training I think mile 8 is too soon for that to happen. I think it was fatigue. Here’s an article that discusses this in marathons but I think it’s valid here too.
Also a belated congrats to @Juxtatarot (1st place, wow). I aspire to your levels of ###-kicking.
I do not have the knowledge of the folks in here. I do have some experience though. Was this the furthest distance you’ve ever ran? I only ask because I don’t recall ever seeing your long runs get up to 13 miles. I think it is what so many talk about in here, building that base. I can recall the 1st time I ever ran 13 miles, I could barely move from mile 11 on. I think if you spend more time at distances > 10 miles, you will finish much stronger.
Yes, that was my longest distance I've ever run. I had an 11.5 mile run a few weeks ago that was longest. It was a good run although obviously not at race pace.
You may be right! I used the term "bonk" in too casual a manner. @Ned describes the likely cause, which was the hot/humid conditions. It seems rather odd that the HR stayed steady in the mid-160s. I had that in my last marathon, where I kept slowing the pace, but the HR wouldn't adjust. It wasn't overly high, I just couldn't push the pace on a warm day.
I don’t know what the WBGT was, but I was told the heat index was 88 on Saturday during my race. And I felt like I had jumped in a swimming pool from the start with the humidity, was drenched the entire time. Wet clothes + 36 hours = some serious chafing.
Yeah I do. And let me tell you, after running this thing I have zero doubts why it’s one of very few HR100 qualifying races. I’ll touch on it during my report I’m sure, but climbing up a ridge line of flat, movable rocks with a several hundred (thousand?) foot drop off....by yourself....in the middle of night 2....lets just say even I was questioning my sanity at one point. I remember saying out loud ( because I hadn’t seen any people in an hour), “ you have a kid, what are you doing?”
I think the concern is medical will be overwhelmed with the number of people needing attention in a short period of time. With ultras medical has their eye on everyone at the aid stations, right?
Thanks gb. That was one of the steeper fire roads I’ve ever seen. But I was so over it by that point that I slowly pulled away from the 4-5 runners I had been with for the last hour. Little did I know that those final 8 miles would be unlike anything I’ve ever experienced......simply awesome
I'm sure all of it was hard, but looking at some of those drops - -900ft in mile 92 had to hurt like hell.
You're an inspiration.
Somehow I missed that this was fairly close to Charlottesville. That area is beautiful, I miss it.
Not everyone, and not every aid station has medical people. But your point is a good one - the smaller numbers in most ultras allow medical to at least sometimes observe people as they come in. Or in my case at AC100 be waiting for me when I arrived because he’d been warned.
He emphasized the importance of easing into mileage and not taking on too much too fast.
First and most importantly, good luck with your little warrior. Second just to clarify, it isn't one or the other; it's one is the priority. Instead of having devoted strength training sessions it'll be more like 10 minute circuits after an easier run. During strength seasons it'll be schedule a lunch lift and an optional evening run; if I am out of gas for the day then tap out of the run. The quantity and quality of SoS runs (good acronym - aaand stolen) will also decrease, but when I have the time/energy for them I'll do them. More than one per week will be difficult though.
I am curious how I'll respond if I have a couple of poor ones in a row since that's essentially it for the year, but given my last 12-15 months I'm cautiously optimistic. I believe I wrote it in my 2016 year-end report, but I'll never have a year like that again. Now that the bar has been elevated it's going to be increasingly difficult to best those efforts. I wandered aimlessly through 2017 and while I pr'd the half in October it was not a good race. I overcame some neck-up battles to BQ spring 2018, but between race day fueling decisions and those early winter setbacks I didn't qualify by enough to make it in the race. So in some backwards way you could say I've had two subpar races in a row. And I'm still comfortable with this approach, which weighed heavily in deciding this would be my new approach - if failure starts to impact my mind set and output the re-evaluate, but I like my chances. Preciate the feedback though
That mileage increase seems reasonable to me. Have you gotten a foam roller yet and stretched your IT bands?bud29 said:So after a week off and very little improvement with my knee pain, I headed to the doctor on Thursday. He said it's probably tendinitis, gave me some prescription nsaids, and told me to keep resting it for another two weeks.
What I'm wondering is, how much is "too much too fast?" My weekly mileage totals have gone 14, 16, 19, 21, 24 - didn't seem like crazy increases at the time, but my knees said otherwise. Once I'm running again, I'm not sure where I should start and how fast I should step it up. I found three main schools of thought when I googled this -
Bullet #3 seems *very* conservative, but since I'm apparently a delicate little flower, maybe that's the way to go. Just seems like it would take forever to reach any sort of decent weekly mileage. What do you think would be a reasonable attack plan?
- Don't increase more than 10% of last week's mileage
- Don't increase more than 2-3 miles/week (I had been doing this)
- Increase one mile for every time you run in a week, then stay at that mileage for three weeks before increasing again
Waking up this morning (sore as hell although I can't really complain after Duck), this was one of the first things I thought of. It really was a big mistake.JShare87 said:
I'm not going to repeat what others have said (they're right though) but three things jumped out at me with your training that I intentionally never commented on until now because the last thing you needed pre-race were additional reasons for doubt.
I have - it feels really nice after I roll/stretch everything out, but it didn't seem to do much for the knee flare-ups. Once the inflammation dies down, though, I'm hoping that consistent rolling keeps it from coming back. The good news is that after 10+ days of rest, walking no longer aggravates it and I'm feeling a lot better. Just concerns me that I got to this point so quickly with so few miles.
I get that it seems counter intuitive, but - go slower. And do everything slowly. Whatever you think is slow probably isn't slow enough. So go even slower than that. After 6-8 weeks of that if you're symptom free then start testing out some quality, maybe once per week. Then everything else at that 'excessively' slow pace.bud29 said:So after a week off and very little improvement with my knee pain, I headed to the doctor on Thursday. He said it's probably tendinitis, gave me some prescription nsaids, and told me to keep resting it for another two weeks.
What I'm wondering is, how much is "too much too fast?" My weekly mileage totals have gone 14, 16, 19, 21, 24 - didn't seem like crazy increases at the time, but my knees said otherwise. Once I'm running again, I'm not sure where I should start and how fast I should step it up. I found three main schools of thought when I googled this -
Bullet #3 seems *very* conservative, but since I'm apparently a delicate little flower, maybe that's the way to go. Just seems like it would take forever to reach any sort of decent weekly mileage. What do you think would be a reasonable attack plan?
- Don't increase more than 10% of last week's mileage
- Don't increase more than 2-3 miles/week (I had been doing this)
- Increase one mile for every time you run in a week, then stay at that mileage for three weeks before increasing again
With a race in 4 weeks, you really only have about 2 1/2 weeks to truly improve. So not much you can do but get in some miles without overdoing it. One consideration for the race, if you're undertrained for the distance, is to consider a run/walk strategy. E.g., deliberately walk through the aid stations, which (a) ensures you take in a good amount of fluids, and (b) let's your body adjust (such as lowering the HR). You might be itching to rush right back into the running, but those short breaks could pay off in the latter miles of the race. Something to think about as you plan for the race.
Congrats, @SFBayDuck. My buddy is talking about maybe doing a 100-miler in the next few years. There's a small part of me that's considering joining him...
I remember when Chris Solinsky broke 27 in the 10K. At 6'1" and 160 pounds, he was the first man over 6 feet and over 141 pounds to do it. And he towered over the rest of the runners. I can't image how I look at 6'4" and 200 lbs.
Does this mean that at 6'6"/165lbs I have a built-in excuse for being slow? In addition to being old (45)?
6'6", 165?! Jesus, you're skinnier than @Juxtatarot and @tri-man 47! Do you disappear when you turn sideways?
Yeah I have nothing for upper-body muscle mass and really fine-boned (always been a thing for me -- my dad, too). Even with all this hiking/running I have very little definition in my calves/quads.
Take it one week at a time - if this week says 8 then i'd set out with 10 on my mind but with bail outs at 8 and 9 if my body's had enough. Then I'd approach each week thereafter similarly. If your body behaves then you can increase it > plan, but if it doesn't you can audible back to the original.
This all sounds oh so familiar very recently. Awesome to read. Great job and keep with it.... It's amazing to see the results at the end.
I started tracking all of my intake on myfitnesspal and was watching my macros closely. I was eating a lot of carbs every day when I first started; 4-500 grams per day. I worked that down to around half of that at peak marathon training (70mpw). I focused on eating high fat/high protein and avoided the simple sugars, processed carbs, etc. I coupled that with running all of my workouts fasted (it was a slow process of doing it on just shorter recovery runs and worked up to doing 20 milers fasted). The fasted runs were running with water only - no carbs taken in during the runs except for dress rehearsal runs where I made sure my stomach could still handle the sudden surge of carbs.
Can you list some examples of types of foods you would eat to be able to sustain your nutrition? I'm probably on a heavy carb and lean protein diet for the most part - lots of pasta, chicken, potatoes, lean red meats, fruits, veggies, etc. Has definitely helped it out, but would like to get even healthier.
I'm far from a perfect eater, but I do try hard most times. I used to get mad about letting myself slip up with junk, but I've learned over time to just let it go. It's not worth the stress of eating chick fil a every once in a while. Spicy chicken sandwich
. It helps that venison is healthier. I'll eat a steak or a burger if that's what's for dinner. Hell I ran my HM PR on a burger/fries the night before thx to @comfortably numb 
Almonds, cashews, peanuts, etc - I think nuts are great. Apples dipped in natural peanutbutter is friggin heaven. Veggies in hummus. Just a few off the top of my head.
http://static.quickmeme.com/img/d7/d748d4018cb471d357409c9306477a336645cce5cfa2bf861895546983b07703.jpgI'm far from a perfect eater, but I do try hard most times. I used to get mad about letting myself slip up with junk, but I've learned over time to just let it go. It's not worth the stress of eating chick fil a every once in a while. Spicy chicken sandwich
Most of my protein sources are eggs, chicken, venison, and just about any fish (I love salmon). I don't intentionally avoid beef - it's just that I enjoy my deer hunting and usually have a chest freezer full of it
I completely avoid pastas and most breads - I'll have an english muffin or a wrap, but that's about it. Otherwise I just try to be sensible with my carb sources - potatoes, rice etc are all fair game.
A typical day:
Breakfast = 2-3 eggs in various forms (all kinds of omelettes and wraps). I'll have sausage (pork) with a wrap or sometimes a English muffin sandwich.
Lunch = grilled chicken and cheese wrap with mustard and tons of spinach (huge fan of spinach)..... greek yogurt, blueberries (try to eat them every day), banana, etc. I'll eat chips to satisfy that vice from time to time (weakness).
Dinner = whatever my wife cooks, I eat. It's usually venison or chicken based with rice and veggies as the sides. Try to eat spinach salads when we can, but we're not as good about that as I'd like (it gets boring really quick).
Snacks = I'm a chocolate fiend - my go to is almond bark thins. If a doctor tells me I can't have these, I'll throat punch'em.
I know I've posted it way back when, but I think it's so damn hard to eat clean and get enough calories in for runners. You almost have to cheat to get properly fueled.
Good luck with the 20 miler, I know you mentioned before that you were running less 20 milers this cycle. I haven't decided if I am going to run one or not. I plan on jumping up to 18 this Sunday and we'll see how that goes. I have decided to move Thursday's MP run to Friday because of weather so Sunday's run could be a challenge.Just got my last 4 weeks from my coach. How's this for my last 20 miler this Saturday:
Miles 1-6 at 7:40 pace and miles 7-11 at 7:30 pace. Use mile 12 to work down to "lower 7:00 pace." Miles 13-16 at 6:55-7:00. Miles 17-20 at 6:45-6:50.
Fun!
