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Another killing at the hands of the Police (6 Viewers)
- Thread starter In The Zone
- Start date
I think this will be a tougher call on closer inspection. Reports I read were that the robbers had been firing indiscriminately almost from the time they hijacked the truck. I think Police had to take risks here.
(When I first heard of this - it was simply fleeing jewel thieves, and the Police reaction was unacceptable, but if the robbers were in fact posing a threat to the public by firing weapons, Police had to act decisively.) . Sad for any loss of life.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Todem
Footballguy
Yeah utter BS. These guys were firing weapons at will. I happened to watch the entire thing live on my local news down here in South Florida. Law Enforcement had no choice. They started spraying bullets at the police the moment they started to approach the truck to get them to surrender. No win situation.
But there will be lawsuits, hyperbole reaction and rhetoric and it will be a giant ####show like everything else these days in the world of 24/7 media news cycles and social media.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
CBS news must have a bunch of visually impaired reporters. First they couldn't tell that they watched surveillance video at 5 times normal speed involving the cruise ship incident and now they say this...
Ummmm.... You can see the flashes clear as day in the truck???
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
I am old enough to remember the north hollywood shootout. Those officers were lauded. Bet you they would be skewered by twitter trolls today.
OMG they went and got AR15's from a pawn shop!!! They had a military vehicle! Thieves and militarized hoodlums those cops! Should have just let those guys go!
Although we still had skeezy lawyers back then since one of the robber's family sued the police. Yes. You read that right. The robber's.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Had you said they used civilian occupied vehicles as cover would at least be an accurate description.I'm not going to argue with you that they probably had no choice, but there's no denying they were using civilian occupied vehicles as cover during a shootout.
Saying they used "human shields" is completely different and requires a leap. A big one.
Todem
Footballguy
SO tell me...what would you do if you are in that same exact situation. Get shot? Take bullets? It is natural survival instinct to seek cover when bullets are flying by your head.I'm not going to argue with you that they probably had no choice, but there's no denying they were using civilian occupied vehicles as cover during a shootout.
Jesus man.
Again no win situation. The first shot I saw come out of the UPS truck I looked at my wife and said this is ending badly....innocent people are going to die. There was no good ending here. Was not possible when your dealing with insane people shooting from the truck. They were going down shooting. They knew it the moment they hijacked the truck.
So easy to sit back and judge. You have no idea what is going on unless you are in that situation yourself. It is survival. Bullets were flying everywhere.
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Todem
Footballguy
Yeah and I reserve judgement till all the ballistics are done. That will paint the picture and does not lie.
I saw lot's of flashes from the truck as the officers approached. I knew it was going to be a bad scene. It was horrifying to watch live. Absolutely crazy. It was Channel 4 down here in Dade/Broward county who showed it all live and one of the studio news women was really shook up on live television. She could not believe they showed it unfold like that and her colleague started apologizing on air for their crew showing it all.
The Big Donkey
Footballguy
I don't think any civilians were killed in the North Hollywood shootout though.
Todem
Footballguy
Luck. There were people everywhere. Again it was a no win situation. And everything happened very very fast. It is a terrible thing what happened yesterday. But I don't blame law enforcement. They had no choice to act they way they did. It was the freaking wild wild west.
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parasaurolophus
Footballguy
mcintyre1
Footballguy
Police deserve a lot of flak for their handling of that situation. I saw a video on Reddit from someone in a car near the end where the UPS truck goes by and (literally, no joke, people counted) over 80 police vehicles drive by in "pursuit." That can't be protocol for the situation and almost certainly contributed to the free for all of gunfire that ended up in two innocent lives taken at the hands of officers. The use of long rifles to engage the suspects also seems highly questionable given the area where it ended up going down -- a crowded multi-lane area near an intersection. Those rifle rounds will cut right through the UPS truck and have a very high risk of hitting innocent bystanders. The officers using an occupied civilian's vehicle as cover while firing is also pretty unconscionable.
Joe had that post about whether the public perception of police has changed which I mostly avoided, but this is a prime example of how messed up law enforcement is in our country these days, IMO. A completely disproportionate response that resulted in chaos and innocent deaths which, IMO, comes from the "warrior/warzone" mentality that many police and even departments promote within the profession.
Joe had that post about whether the public perception of police has changed which I mostly avoided, but this is a prime example of how messed up law enforcement is in our country these days, IMO. A completely disproportionate response that resulted in chaos and innocent deaths which, IMO, comes from the "warrior/warzone" mentality that many police and even departments promote within the profession.
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And your post is a prime example of how messed up this country is criticizing law enforcement. Why don't you spend your outrage on the criminals who started the whole mess by shooting a jewelry store worker in the head and then took an innocent man hostage?
Damned if they do, damned if they don't. If the police back off these dangerous criminals and they end up killing a family in a car accident or take 30 people hostage, you will just spend your time complaining about the police didn't do enough to protect innocent lives.
mcintyre1
Footballguy
In situations like this, the expected procedure is to back off the pursuit, follow with air support, and force a confrontation when it is appropriate. I've seen that posted by multiple LE people on various different websites also criticizing this police response. There's zero defense of what those police did. They forced a confrontation in a crowded area and likely killed two innocent people in their rush to play soldier.
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yeah, back off of two armed criminals who already shot somebody in the head - now I know you are trolling on a Friday night. Nice job.
Maybe next time you should personally invite them into your home to allow them to peacefully surrender to police.
CGRdrJoe
Footballguy
Backing off would have been the proper procedure and follow by chopper until they either ditch or get to a less populated area. The officers there were acting on orders but their orders were bull####.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
What if they weren't planning on going to a less populated area? Two armed criminals facing life in prison have very little to lose at that point. What if their next move would have been a crowded mall or shopping center and they are able to take 30-40 people hostage?
This is the problem with Monday morning keyboard warriors. They never think the situation could be 1000x worse. And if the situation does escalate to 1000x worse, they will just complain about that.
CGRdrJoe
Footballguy
mcintyre1
Footballguy
I've never once indicated sympathy for the criminals. I'd appreciate if you'd stop implying that I have.
mcintyre1
Footballguy
Multiple, from what I heard. There were also several news helicopters and this happened on live TV.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
I knew there was a news helicopter, but figured there were liability issues involved with just abandoning pursuit and leaving it in the hands of the news crew. Wasnt sure if they had police helicopters.
mcintyre1
Footballguy
She was reportedly hit by a ricochet from a shot fired into the floor by one of the criminals. Thankfully minor injuries.
CGRdrJoe
Footballguy
The truck was stuck behind civilian vehicles not police vehicles. That was the wrong sport to approach knowing that gunfire was probable. It’s not like the spike stripped the vehicle and had it disabled with a controlled highway; would you want to be in a vehicle next to this! Would you want this approach if your family was in a vehicle next to the truck?
mcintyre1
Footballguy
This CBS News article has a quote from the former Miami-Dade Police Chief:
Sadly, it also seems pretty likely that the police are responsible for both innocent deaths. There is graphic video from the TV coverage of the UPS driver being shot after trying to crawl out from under one of the suspects. The bystander was 350 feet ahead of the UPS truck having just made a right turn out of the wide intersection, while all of the responding police are parallel or behind the UPS truck while the shooting happens. Which is exactly why the former police chief says you don't do that.
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CGRdrJoe
Footballguy
Imo the criminals are responsible for the deaths but I don’t think the cops should have engaged the way that they did. They are honestly very lucky the number was not higher.
rockaction
Footballguy
Count me in as thinking that high speed chases should not be engaged nor allowed unless the most stringent of protocols is engaged and followed.
It's silly, disturbing, and just plain wrong to have an incident like this.
In speaking to the rest of the thread, was up by Fullerton the other week and said a prayer for Kelly Thomas's soul, that it rests in peace.
I don't usually do that.
It's silly, disturbing, and just plain wrong to have an incident like this.
In speaking to the rest of the thread, was up by Fullerton the other week and said a prayer for Kelly Thomas's soul, that it rests in peace.
I don't usually do that.
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CGRdrJoe
Footballguy
The more I think about it the more I wonder what would have happened if one of the vehicles they were using as cover through it in reverse or gassed it to get out of there. Would they have shot at them if the driver in a panic ran over or was going to run over a cop? If it’s just me in the car then maybe I would have ditched out and ran but if my kids are in there no way I’m just staying there parked while being used for cover.rockaction said:
rockaction
Footballguy
So messy. I'd say that I'm all about abiding the law, but I'm really not a positive law guy. I'm a natural law sympathizer, and there is virtually no societal reason not to let the property go to the thieving victors other than general deterrence, a rubric's reasoning which is trumped here, IMHO, by the innocent lives lost.
Bad policy, bad execution.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
This is a terrible idea. Milwaukee tried no chase policing. They have reversed their decision.rockaction said:
Problem with no chase is that criminals start to realize that fleeing becomes a good strategy.
People argue "so what, you have the vehicle info, just arrest them later"
Those people have bad information. The people fleeing are often already wanted for something else. So obviously "arrest them later" is a pretty awful strategy. Especially when the vehicle being driven is also often not registered to them.
rockaction
Footballguy
I don't think you even read what I wrote before you called it terrible. I'd read more carefully next time.
And try not -- not that I'm offended or wanked or anything -- to make other people's arguments my own through anticipatory negation of debate. You'll find, with me, I'm not offering trite positions and that they'll be generally off of the beaten path.
Thx;
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
So you are in favor of chasing suspects?rockaction said:
Count me in as thinking that high speed chases should not be engaged nor allowed unless the most stringent of protocols is engaged and followed.
I'm a natural law sympathizer, and there is virtually no societal reason not to let the property go to the thieving victors other than general deterrence
rockaction
Footballguy
The bolded seems -- and I'm not being contentious here -- that I'm not above high speed chases in certain instances. But I would reduce the number and danger of them, especially including citizen forfeiture of their own property at the whims of the police.
The second italic goes further and recognizes general deterrence as the reason for these chases, so your post about other people's arguments missed my point even more.
To wit:
Not in favor in general, if specifics and protocol allow it, okay
Err massively on side of caution
Certainly not in favor of public shootouts, seizure of property, e.g., other people's cars
Property, traditionally understood, gives way to life and limb concerns under natural law. By far.
Ergo, since I'm more a natural law guy, property loses to life and limb.
This should be clear by now.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
of course - did anyone ever think they wouldn't ?parasaurolophus said:
NREC34
Footballguy
Yenrub
Footballguy
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Not killed, but...
Alabama woman, 19, shot as authorities open fire, raid home in search of man who was already in jail
An Alabama woman was shot last week by authorities who entered her home in search of a man — who had already been booked at the local jail the day prior — and officials are chalking the situation up to a "miscommunication."
Ann Rylee, 19, was at home in Wilmer on Thursday morning when Mobile County sheriff's deputies and federal officers from Homeland Security and the U.S. Marshals Office descended upon her property, looking for Nicholas McLeod, a 41-year-old man who is the uncle of Rylee's fiancé.
Investigators approached the house and detained two men outside, who told them there was a woman — Rylee — in the house, according to Mobile County Sheriff Sam Cochran, who told WALA-TV "this lady had armed herself with a shotgun and the entry team was giving her orders to drop the gun, put the gun down, drop the gun several times over a period of a few seconds it seems like."
"She didn't and she pointed the gun at one of them — then two or three agents fired upon her, striking her three or four times," Cochran said.
Rylee was hospitalized, underwent surgery and is expected to survive, her fiancé, Christopher McLeod said. He said authorities were at the home looking for his uncle, "who used to live at that house years ago."
Nicholas McLeod, the man authorities were looking for, was arrested on Wednesday — a day before the shooting — and booked at the Mobile Jail on charges of possession of drug paraphernalia and evidence tampering.
It wasn't immediately clear how authorities didn't realize Nicholas McLeod was already locked up, but the sheriff called the situation a "miscommunication."
"We've narrowed it down to one of two things: The investigators did not make one final check this morning to send teams out to make the arrests or warrants section did not communicate to the computer system — that the warrants were no longer active. We're running that down," Cochran told the news outlet.
The sheriff, who said it wasn't any of his own deputies who fired their weapons, added: "However, if she would not have pointed a gun at the agents — they would have determined all of that on the scene and would have bid her a good day and thank you very much."
But Rylee's fiancé said the 19-year-old woman was asleep on a recliner in their living room when investigators showed up at their house on Thursday. He said he was outside emptying the trash with a friend before going to work when multiple officers, armed with rifles and wearing body armor, pulled up in vehicles and demanded they put their hands up.
He said they keep a shotgun in their living room for protection. Christopher McLeod said two federal marshals who had approached the home started yelling “gun” and fired multiple times before Rylee was shot.
“I just hope she's OK. That's my No. 1,” Christopher McLeod said. “It's just so unfortunate because none of this needed to happen, it had nothing to do with us. We're just victims of an unfortunate situation.”
There is reportedly no body camera footage of what unfolded at the home in Wilmer because the Mobile County Sheriff's Office doesn't own body cameras. Cochran did say, however, that "there is video recordings" of authorities asking her to drop a weapon.
Alabama woman, 19, shot as authorities open fire, raid home in search of man who was already in jail
An Alabama woman was shot last week by authorities who entered her home in search of a man — who had already been booked at the local jail the day prior — and officials are chalking the situation up to a "miscommunication."
Ann Rylee, 19, was at home in Wilmer on Thursday morning when Mobile County sheriff's deputies and federal officers from Homeland Security and the U.S. Marshals Office descended upon her property, looking for Nicholas McLeod, a 41-year-old man who is the uncle of Rylee's fiancé.
Investigators approached the house and detained two men outside, who told them there was a woman — Rylee — in the house, according to Mobile County Sheriff Sam Cochran, who told WALA-TV "this lady had armed herself with a shotgun and the entry team was giving her orders to drop the gun, put the gun down, drop the gun several times over a period of a few seconds it seems like."
"She didn't and she pointed the gun at one of them — then two or three agents fired upon her, striking her three or four times," Cochran said.
Rylee was hospitalized, underwent surgery and is expected to survive, her fiancé, Christopher McLeod said. He said authorities were at the home looking for his uncle, "who used to live at that house years ago."
Nicholas McLeod, the man authorities were looking for, was arrested on Wednesday — a day before the shooting — and booked at the Mobile Jail on charges of possession of drug paraphernalia and evidence tampering.
It wasn't immediately clear how authorities didn't realize Nicholas McLeod was already locked up, but the sheriff called the situation a "miscommunication."
"We've narrowed it down to one of two things: The investigators did not make one final check this morning to send teams out to make the arrests or warrants section did not communicate to the computer system — that the warrants were no longer active. We're running that down," Cochran told the news outlet.
The sheriff, who said it wasn't any of his own deputies who fired their weapons, added: "However, if she would not have pointed a gun at the agents — they would have determined all of that on the scene and would have bid her a good day and thank you very much."
But Rylee's fiancé said the 19-year-old woman was asleep on a recliner in their living room when investigators showed up at their house on Thursday. He said he was outside emptying the trash with a friend before going to work when multiple officers, armed with rifles and wearing body armor, pulled up in vehicles and demanded they put their hands up.
He said they keep a shotgun in their living room for protection. Christopher McLeod said two federal marshals who had approached the home started yelling “gun” and fired multiple times before Rylee was shot.
“I just hope she's OK. That's my No. 1,” Christopher McLeod said. “It's just so unfortunate because none of this needed to happen, it had nothing to do with us. We're just victims of an unfortunate situation.”
There is reportedly no body camera footage of what unfolded at the home in Wilmer because the Mobile County Sheriff's Office doesn't own body cameras. Cochran did say, however, that "there is video recordings" of authorities asking her to drop a weapon.
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Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
Because sometimes the two sides come from radically differing agendas, sometimes borne out to bear.
When I get a chance, I'll do my best to outline why this obvious agreement toward an orderly and peaceful yet free society is so frowned upon, by both sides of the aisle.
Yenrub
Footballguy
Officer shoots handcuffed man.
The officer is being charged with murder...as he should be
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/handcuffed-man-shot-killed-inside-maryland-police-cruiser-n1124486
The officer is being charged with murder...as he should be
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/handcuffed-man-shot-killed-inside-maryland-police-cruiser-n1124486
Ketamine Dreams
Footballguy
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Smelled PCP? I have never heard of this. Does not mean it is not a thing, just that I have never heard of it. Does PCP have a strong, detectable, or distinctive smell?
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
Yes. It reeks. And people put it in car vents to cure the "juice" or something. Stinks up the car.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Thanks to the two posters above who helped me learn a little something this morning.
Yenrub
Footballguy
Not a shooting but a totally unnecessary beat down. The officers partner does nothing to intervene either
https://twitter.com/QasimRashid/status/1258080295586332674?s=20
https://twitter.com/QasimRashid/status/1258080295586332674?s=20
PinkydaPimp
Footballguy
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