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Another killing at the hands of the Police

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2 hours ago, parasaurolophus said:

I have not read any reports that she broke in. Is that being alleged? 

I don't know, that's why I was asking

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19 hours ago, Yenrub said:
21 hours ago, parasaurolophus said:

I have not read any reports that she broke in. Is that being alleged? 

I don't know, that's why I was asking

Her initial statement about her entry was that when she attempted to put her key in the lock, the door swung open a few inches. Not sure if she reiterated that on the stand this week.

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22 minutes ago, whoknew said:

Guilty of murder.

How much time is she looking at potentially?

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5 minutes ago, NREC34 said:

How much time is she looking at potentially?

She could get life.

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Finally read why the defense was using her text messages and booty calls. They used it to counter the original defense strategy of arguing she was exhausted from working a double shift. Her plans to go get some mclovin after she showered basically shut that whole thing down. 

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4 minutes ago, whoknew said:

She could get life.

Man, I feel bad for her. She made a terrible mistake and going to pay dearly for it. Guess she’ll see what the other side looks like. She knew it too when she was calling 911. Yeah hon, your job is history and maybe your life. Guess that advice people give about not dating in the office would’ve helped her out here. 

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Obviously a terrible tragedy, but what I don't understand is the immediate impulse to pull out a gun and shoot. Admittedly I have not followed this case but if the man is sitting on his couch, I have to assume he was in a posture that posed no threat. The woman comes home, sees a man on her couch and the first instinct is to shoot before she can even realize its not her home?

I don't feel all that bad for her.

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52 minutes ago, whoknew said:

Guilty of murder.

After reading @PinkydaPimp post and finding out about Texas’ ‘mistake of fact’ law I’m actually surprised that they found her guilty

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16 minutes ago, NREC34 said:

Man, I feel bad for her. She made a terrible mistake and going to pay dearly for it. Guess she’ll see what the other side looks like. She knew it too when she was calling 911. Yeah hon, your job is history and maybe your life. Guess that advice people give about not dating in the office would’ve helped her out here. 

Read that the guy was unarmed and defenseless when he was shot.  Screw her.

Murder seemed harsh for what was obviously an accident, but when you add in his initial reactions before she shot him murder makes sense.

She made a long string of terrible decisions.

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I have a problem with this verdict. 

She is guilty of a crime. She deserves prison time IMO. But I don’t know what that crime should be, and I’m pretty sure it shouldn’t be murder. She was mistaken. She wasn’t trying to murder somebody. I think intent is a big factor. This seems wrong. 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I have a problem with this verdict. 

She is guilty of a crime. She deserves prison time IMO. But I don’t know what that crime should be, and I’m pretty sure it shouldn’t be murder. She was mistaken. She wasn’t trying to murder somebody. I think intent is a big factor. This seems wrong. 

BLM...it's a political judgement. 

Edited by GROOT

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Yenrub said:

After reading @PinkydaPimp post and finding out about Texas’ ‘mistake of fact’ law I’m actually surprised that they found her guilty

Yes, i am very surprised as well.  TBH im surprised it wasnt manslaughter.  I havent watched the trial so i dont know the details but i would have to assume something very damning came out.  Otherwise, Manslaughter does seem to fit.  I need to read a little more about it.  Im very curious to hear how the jurors took it.  I believe though that i did read she could have helped more with CPR and didnt.  Instead tried to cover up a bit and call her people to help.  That might sway me.  If i had heard that she was bias that might as well or that she did not reasonably do what she could to de-escalte. 

Edited by PinkydaPimp

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6 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I have a problem with this verdict. 

She is guilty of a crime. She deserves prison time IMO. But I don’t know what that crime should be, and I’m pretty sure it shouldn’t be murder. She was mistaken. She wasn’t trying to murder somebody. I think intent is a big factor. This seems wrong. 

How is this not second degree murder.  It is not premediated but she intentionally shot him which caused his death.  Even if you want to say that wasn't far enough her conduct was reckless which is usually also murder (though I am not a TX attorney).  In addition, she was likely committing another crime at the time which is criminal tresspass so you could be dealing with the felony murder rules but that is just a guess.  Even in the best case view of her actions were manslaughter.  

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I have a problem with this verdict. 

She is guilty of a crime. She deserves prison time IMO. But I don’t know what that crime should be, and I’m pretty sure it shouldn’t be murder. She was mistaken. She wasn’t trying to murder somebody. I think intent is a big factor. This seems wrong. 

I don’t think Texas has “second degree murder.”  It has murder, and the type of murder in this case is either a first or a second degree felony.  Recklessly causing the death of another in a criminal violation is second. Intentionally killing or intentionally acting in such a way as to cause serious bodily harm that results in death is a first degree felony.  

Edited by Henry Ford

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12 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I have a problem with this verdict. 

She is guilty of a crime. She deserves prison time IMO. But I don’t know what that crime should be, and I’m pretty sure it shouldn’t be murder. She was mistaken. She wasn’t trying to murder somebody. I think intent is a big factor. This seems wrong. 

Yes it was a mistake, but to say it was not murder not sure I can go that far.  She has more training than the average person on being able to handle herself.  She went into the wrong apartment, and she should of been aware of her surroundings.  Her first reaction was to go for her gun and not to hear the homeowner out or back out of the situation when all evidence shows this was not a violent situation at all.

 

 

 

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I wonder how times she’s replayed it in her mind. 

I just can’t imagine how miserable her existence is now. 

I’ve been there before. Constantly thinking about an honest mistake I made but this has to be exponentially different. 

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22 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

I don’t think Texas has “second degree murder.”  It has murder, and the type of murder in this case is either a first or a second degree felony.  Recklessly causing the death of another in a criminal violation is second. Intentionally killing or intentionally acting in such a way as to cause serious bodily harm that results in death is a first degree felony.  

I guess I might be OK with second degree murder as I understand the term. Thanks for the clarification. 

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Just now, timschochet said:

I guess I might be OK with second degree murder as I understand the term. Thanks for the clarification. 

Yeah, it’s either “capital murder” or “murder” in Texas. Capital gets you the needle.  She got the next one. 

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13 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Yeah, it’s either “capital murder” or “murder” in Texas. Capital gets you the needle.  She got the next one. 

I would like it if the news media makes it as clear as you have. To a layman like myself, conviction of murder seems like a harsh sentence. 

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46 minutes ago, GROOT said:

BLM...it's a political judgement. 

Oof

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I would like it if the news media makes it as clear as you have. To a layman like myself, conviction of murder seems like a harsh sentence. 

They HAD TO convict her. In her own testimony she said that she intended to kill Botham Jean. 

It’s also possible that she gets recommended only the minimum sentence... 5 yrs I think. And to me, that is a reasonable sentence. 

Edited by Tom Skerritt

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This is a really odd topic to be in this particular thread.  Yes, she was a police officer, but she was not on duty, nor acting as a police officer when this happened.

Tragedy - certainly.  But, I don't think it fits into this conversation.

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2 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

This is a really odd topic to be in this particular thread.  Yes, she was a police officer, but she was not on duty, nor acting as a police officer when this happened.

Tragedy - certainly.  But, I don't think it fits into this conversation.

I think its relevant to some of the potential underlying issues surrounding this topic.  For example if someone thinks that its systemic and now this issue that makes officers so quick to pull the trigger even in situations like this, its very relevant.  Even She said that they are taught to respond like this.  Maybe there is an issue with what is being taught?  :shrug:

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1 hour ago, parasaurolophus said:

Finally read why the defense was using her text messages and booty calls. They used it to counter the original defense strategy of arguing she was exhausted from working a double shift. Her plans to go get some mclovin after she showered basically shut that whole thing down. 

Did they publicly release the texts and pics?

:oldunsure:

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3 minutes ago, PinkydaPimp said:

I think its relevant to some of the potential underlying issues surrounding this topic.  For example if someone thinks that its systemic and now this issue that makes officers so quick to pull the trigger even in situations like this, its very relevant.  Even She said that they are taught to respond like this.  Maybe there is an issue with what is being taught?  :shrug:

I can see that - and I think it is very worthwhile to review the training police officers get to handle confrontations with suspects.

 

I just don't get the sense that this was anything like that - but I have not really followed the facts here, beyond the basics - she claims to be in her apartment and shoots an intruder.  My understanding is this was a shoot first - ask questions later situation.  But, I think this still falls under the guise of a civilian shooting another civilian, rather than a police officer shooting someone in her capacity as a police officer.

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7 minutes ago, PinkydaPimp said:

I think its relevant to some of the potential underlying issues surrounding this topic.  For example if someone thinks that its systemic and now this issue that makes officers so quick to pull the trigger even in situations like this, its very relevant.  Even She said that they are taught to respond like this.  Maybe there is an issue with what is being taught?  :shrug:

That's what boggles my mind about it all.  Even if she truly thought it was her apartment and she came across some guy in it, her immediate reaction is to shoot him dead?  Aside from eating ice cream, it's not like he was charging her, right?  I assume lights were on in the apartment?

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

I have a problem with this verdict. 

She is guilty of a crime. She deserves prison time IMO. But I don’t know what that crime should be, and I’m pretty sure it shouldn’t be murder. She was mistaken. She wasn’t trying to murder somebody. I think intent is a big factor. This seems wrong. 

I haven't followed this case all that closely, but it did come up on local news last night.  I thought I heard her say that when she was shooting, she was shooting to kill.  What do you mean by intent here?

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8 minutes ago, The Commish said:

I haven't followed this case all that closely, but it did come up on local news last night.  I thought I heard her say that when she was shooting, she was shooting to kill.  What do you mean by intent here?

Except in the movies, I'm not realistically sure there is another type.

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

I have a problem with this verdict. 

She is guilty of a crime. She deserves prison time IMO. But I don’t know what that crime should be, and I’m pretty sure it shouldn’t be murder. She was mistaken. She wasn’t trying to murder somebody. I think intent is a big factor. This seems wrong. 

she wasnt mistaken, read the details

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5 minutes ago, pantherclub said:

she wasnt mistaken, read the details

You believe that she knew she was not in her apartment?

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4 minutes ago, pantherclub said:

she wasnt mistaken, read the details

I am curious - do you think she was not mistaken - i.e. she knew she was in someone else's apartment, and just killed the guy?  Or, do you think there were circumstances that she should have realized she was in the wrong apartment?

 

I have not seen much on this, or heard any of the testimony, but my thoughts are that she was mistaken - but that there were enough clues that she should have seen where she was - thus her mistake was not reasonable.

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26 minutes ago, PinkydaPimp said:

I think its relevant to some of the potential underlying issues surrounding this topic.  For example if someone thinks that its systemic and now this issue that makes officers so quick to pull the trigger even in situations like this, its very relevant.  Even She said that they are taught to respond like this.  Maybe there is an issue with what is being taught?  :shrug:

:goodposting:  This occurred to me as well. This is a police officer who wasn't able to control the situation in this simple situation without killing someone. I really don't care if she had a long day, was exhausted, whatever. Her first instinct was to pull the trigger in a non-threatening situation.

And some people think we don't have a problem with police too eager to shoot.

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6 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

I am curious - do you think she was not mistaken - i.e. she knew she was in someone else's apartment, and just killed the guy?  Or, do you think there were circumstances that she should have realized she was in the wrong apartment?

 

I have not seen much on this, or heard any of the testimony, but my thoughts are that she was mistaken - but that there were enough clues that she should have seen where she was - thus her mistake was not reasonable.

The neighbors heard he shouting.  Her apartment was one floor below.  She was sexting her sex partner.  She had numerous noise complaints about the dude.

 

Something doesnt add up her but I am 100% sure she knew that wasnt her apartment.  I am not buying the "I am so exhausted I dont know where I am" defense. 

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55 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I would like it if the news media makes it as clear as you have. To a layman like myself, conviction of murder seems like a harsh sentence. 

So is getting shot to death for sitting on your couch. 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

I am curious - do you think she was not mistaken - i.e. she knew she was in someone else's apartment, and just killed the guy?  Or, do you think there were circumstances that she should have realized she was in the wrong apartment?

 

I have not seen much on this, or heard any of the testimony, but my thoughts are that she was mistaken - but that there were enough clues that she should have seen where she was - thus her mistake was not reasonable.

There’s a veterinarian in Louisiana who was arrested and is on trial for allegedly shooting her neighbor’s dog because he wouldn’t shut up while she was intoxicated. 

I don’t personally take her explanation of events as an inviolable account of what actually happened. 

Edited by Henry Ford

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2 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

allegedly shooting her neighbor’s dog because he wouldn’t shut up while she was intoxicated. 

Would the dog shut up when she was sober?

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3 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

Would the dog shut up when she was sober?

Well, technically no one has heard him bark since she sobered up. 

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14 minutes ago, pantherclub said:

The neighbors heard he shouting.  Her apartment was one floor below.  She was sexting her sex partner.  She had numerous noise complaints about the dude.

 

Something doesnt add up her but I am 100% sure she knew that wasnt her apartment.  I am not buying the "I am so exhausted I dont know where I am" defense. 

Pretty sure this turned out to be untrue. 

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1 minute ago, parasaurolophus said:

Pretty sure this turned out to be untrue. 

If so I stand corrected but I thought I read this in the CNN piece.  That still doesnt make me change my mind

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Just now, pantherclub said:

If so I stand corrected but I thought I read this in the CNN piece.  That still doesnt make me change my mind

Yeah it was untrue.

Quote

Like law enforcement, Merritt has previously said there was a noise complaint about Jean's apartment the day he was shot. But Merritt said Wednesday that he learned that was not true. Merritt said there hadn't been a noise complaint against Jean in the two months Guyger had lived in the building.

Merritt is the attorney for the family of Jean and I am pretty sure he was the source for the rumor to begin with. 

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51 minutes ago, pantherclub said:

The neighbors heard he shouting.  Her apartment was one floor below.  She was sexting her sex partner.  She had numerous noise complaints about the dude.

 

Something doesnt add up her but I am 100% sure she knew that wasnt her apartment.  I am not buying the "I am so exhausted I dont know where I am" defense. 

What do you mean by the bold btw? Like they were arguing? 

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If she knew it wasn’t her apartment and premeditated to murder the guy why would she call 911 instead of running off?

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2 hours ago, Henry Ford said:

Yeah, it’s either “capital murder” or “murder” in Texas. Capital gets you the needle.  She got the next one. 

OK so now I'm confused again because NBC news is contradicting you. The reporter just said that the jury had 2nd degree murder as an option, and turned it down. And that she might be sentenced to 99 years for murder.

Not sure who is correct here, but if the NBC guy is right, then I'm back to being uncomfortable again.

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6 minutes ago, timschochet said:

OK so now I'm confused again because NBC news is contradicting you. The reporter just said that the jury had 2nd degree murder as an option, and turned it down. And that she might be sentenced to 99 years for murder.

Not sure who is correct here, but if the NBC guy is right, then I'm back to being uncomfortable again.

They turned down manslaughter. 

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50 minutes ago, NREC34 said:

If she knew it wasn’t her apartment and premeditated to murder the guy why would she call 911 instead of running off?

She could have assumed as is normally the case that she would get off because officers always do. 🤷🏽‍♂️
 

until now.  👀

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Some things i am reading:

Quote

Prosecutors also pointed out that Guyger did not make adequate attempts to save Jean’s life after shooting him, including failing to perform CPR on him or using her first-aid kit.

“It didn’t cross my mind,” Guyger responded to the prosecutor asking why she didn’t use the gauze she had in her backpack lying next to her to stem Jean’s bleeding wound.

Prosecutors said it was unreasonable for a trained, five-year veteran of the police to enter the wrong apartment and shoot an unarmed man — who was not a threat to anyone — in the chest.

It is “unreasonable she could do something like that and just say ‘whoops, my bad,’ and go about her life,” Dallas County prosecutor Jason Hermus said in his closing arguments Monday, mocking Guyger’s claims that she shot Jean in self-defense.

“Self-defense is an option of last resort,” Hermus said. “She killed him unreasonably and unjustifiably.”

She also apparently on the stand said that she "intended to kill him".  That and the above likely did the trick.  I would say i agree.  A trained police officer should not have acted in this manner.  Killing should have been a last resort.  She could have shot him in the leg.  She could have done proper CPR or treated him.  She called some fellow officers instead to ask them to help. 

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