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Another killing at the hands of the Police

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8 minutes ago, tjnc09 said:

And your post is a prime example of how messed up this country is criticizing law enforcement.  Why don't you spend your outrage on the criminals who started the whole mess by shooting a jewelry store worker in the head and then took an innocent man hostage?  

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.  If the police back off these dangerous criminals and they end up killing a family in a car accident or take 30 people hostage, you will just spend your time complaining about the police didn't do enough to protect innocent lives.

 

In situations like this, the expected procedure is to back off the pursuit, follow with air support, and force a confrontation when it is appropriate. I've seen that posted by multiple LE people on various different websites also criticizing this police response. There's zero defense of what those police did. They forced a confrontation in a crowded area and likely killed two innocent people in their rush to play soldier.

Edited by mcintyre1
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26 minutes ago, mcintyre1 said:

In situations like this, the expected procedure is to back off the pursuit, follow with air support, and force a confrontation when it is appropriate. I've seen that posted by multiple LE people on various different websites also criticizing this police response. There's zero defense of what those police did. They forced a confrontation in a crowded area and likely killed two innocent people in their rush to play soldier.

yeah, back off of two armed criminals who already shot somebody in the head - now I know you are trolling on a Friday night.  Nice job.

Maybe next time you should personally invite them into your home to allow them to peacefully surrender to police.

 

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55 minutes ago, tjnc09 said:

yeah, back off of two armed criminals who already shot somebody in the head - now I know you are trolling on a Friday night.  Nice job.

Maybe next time you should personally invite them into your home to allow them to peacefully surrender to police.

 

Backing off would have been the proper procedure and follow by chopper until they either ditch or get to a less populated area. The officers there were acting on orders but their orders were bull####.

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20 minutes ago, CGRdrJoe said:

Backing off would have been the proper procedure and follow by chopper until they either ditch or get to a less populated area. The officers there were acting on orders but their orders were bull####.

Did the police even have a helicopter in the air? 

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1 hour ago, tjnc09 said:

yeah, back off of two armed criminals who already shot somebody in the head - now I know you are trolling on a Friday night.  Nice job.

Maybe next time you should personally invite them into your home to allow them to peacefully surrender to police.

 

I know the woman at the store had already been shot. Was she shot in the head? 

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37 minutes ago, CGRdrJoe said:

Backing off would have been the proper procedure and follow by chopper until they either ditch or get to a less populated area. The officers there were acting on orders but their orders were bull####.

What if they weren't planning on going to a less populated area?  Two armed criminals facing life in prison have very little to lose at that point.  What if their next move would have been a crowded mall or shopping center and they are able to take 30-40 people hostage?  

This is the problem with Monday morning keyboard warriors.  They never think the situation could be 1000x worse.  And if the situation does escalate to 1000x worse, they will just complain about that.   

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43 minutes ago, tjnc09 said:

What if they weren't planning on going to a less populated area?  Two armed criminals facing life in prison have very little to lose at that point.  What if their next move would have been a crowded mall or shopping center and they are able to take 30-40 people hostage?  

This is the problem with Monday morning keyboard warriors.  They never think the situation could be 1000x worse.  And if the situation does escalate to 1000x worse, they will just complain about that.   

So you’re law enforcement? Cause that’s not how we train with our LE operations. 

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2 hours ago, tjnc09 said:

yeah, back off of two armed criminals who already shot somebody in the head - now I know you are trolling on a Friday night.  Nice job.

Maybe next time you should personally invite them into your home to allow them to peacefully surrender to police.

 

I've never once indicated sympathy for the criminals. I'd appreciate if you'd stop implying that I have.

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1 hour ago, parasaurolophus said:

Did the police even have a helicopter in the air? 

Multiple, from what I heard. There were also several news helicopters and this happened on live TV.

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Just now, mcintyre1 said:

Multiple, from what I heard. There were also several news helicopters and this happened on live TV.

I knew there was a news helicopter, but figured there were liability issues involved with just abandoning pursuit and leaving it in the hands of the news crew. Wasnt sure if they had police helicopters. 

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1 hour ago, parasaurolophus said:

I know the woman at the store had already been shot. Was she shot in the head? 

She was reportedly hit by a ricochet from a shot fired into the floor by one of the criminals. Thankfully minor injuries.

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50 minutes ago, tjnc09 said:

What if they weren't planning on going to a less populated area?  Two armed criminals facing life in prison have very little to lose at that point.  What if their next move would have been a crowded mall or shopping center and they are able to take 30-40 people hostage?  

This is the problem with Monday morning keyboard warriors.  They never think the situation could be 1000x worse.  And if the situation does escalate to 1000x worse, they will just complain about that.   

The truck was stuck behind civilian vehicles not police vehicles. That was the wrong sport to approach knowing that gunfire was probable. It’s not like the spike stripped the vehicle and had it disabled with a controlled highway; would you want to be in a vehicle next to this! Would you want this approach if your family was in a vehicle next to the truck? 

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8 minutes ago, CGRdrJoe said:

The truck was stuck behind civilian vehicles not police vehicles. That was the wrong sport to approach knowing that gunfire was probable. It’s not like the spike stripped the vehicle and had it disabled with a controlled highway; would you want to be in a vehicle next to this! Would you want this approach if your family was in a vehicle next to the truck? 

This CBS News article has a quote from the former Miami-Dade Police Chief:
 

Quote

Miami-Dade's police director, Juan Perez, explained why officers had to move in on the suspects, saying the suspects weren't just fleeing, they were being violent and "confronting officers shooting at them."

But Manny Orosa, who was Miami-Dade's police chief from 2011 to 2015, questions the tactic given the number of civilians and the hostage.

"If you're shooting into a truck and you don't have a clear vision of who you're shooting at, you don't just shoot at the truck," Orosa said.


Sadly, it also seems pretty likely that the police are responsible for both innocent deaths. There is graphic video from the TV coverage of the UPS driver being shot after trying to crawl out from under one of the suspects. The bystander was 350 feet ahead of the UPS truck having just made a right turn out of the wide intersection, while all of the responding police are parallel or behind the UPS truck while the shooting happens. Which is exactly why the former police chief says you don't do that.

Edited by mcintyre1
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36 minutes ago, mcintyre1 said:

This CBS News article has a quote from the former Miami-Dade Police Chief:
 


Sadly, it also seems pretty likely that the police are responsible for both innocent deaths. There is graphic video from the TV coverage of the UPS driver being shot after trying to crawl out from under one of the suspects. The bystander was 350 feet ahead of the UPS truck having just made a right turn out of the wide intersection, while all of the responding police are parallel or behind the UPS truck while the shooting happens. Which is exactly why the former police chief says you don't do that.

Imo the criminals are responsible for the deaths but I don’t think the cops should have engaged the way that they did. They are honestly very lucky the number was not higher.

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Count me in as thinking that high speed chases should not be engaged nor allowed unless the most stringent of protocols is engaged and followed.

It's silly, disturbing, and just plain wrong to have an incident like this.

In speaking to the rest of the thread, was up by Fullerton the other week and said a prayer for Kelly Thomas's soul, that it rests in peace.

I don't usually do that.

Edited by rockaction
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On 12/7/2019 at 1:20 AM, rockaction said:

Count me in as thinking that high speed chases should not be engaged nor allowed unless the most stringent of protocols is engaged and followed.

It's silly, disturbing, and just plain wrong to have an incident like this.

In speaking to the rest of the thread, was up by Fullerton the other week and said a prayer for Kelly Thomas's soul, that it rests in peace.

I don't usually do that.

The more I think about it the more I wonder what would have happened if one of the vehicles they were using as cover through it in reverse or gassed it to get out of there. Would they have shot at them if the driver in a panic ran over or was going to run over a cop? If it’s just me in the car then maybe I would have ditched out and ran but if my kids are in there no way I’m just staying there parked while being used for cover.

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22 minutes ago, CGRdrJoe said:

The more I think about it the more I wonder what would have happened if one of the vehicles they were using as cover through it in reverse or gassed it to get out of there. Would they have shot at them if the driver in a panic ran over or was going to run over a cop? If it’s just me in the car then maybe I would have ditched out and ran but if my kids are in there no way I’m just staying there parked while being used for cover.

So messy. I'd say that I'm all about abiding the law, but I'm really not a positive law guy. I'm a natural law sympathizer, and there is virtually no societal reason not to let the property go to the thieving victors other than general deterrence, a rubric's reasoning which is trumped here, IMHO, by the innocent lives lost. 

Bad policy, bad execution.  

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On 12/7/2019 at 3:20 AM, rockaction said:

Count me in as thinking that high speed chases should not be engaged nor allowed unless the most stringent of protocols is engaged and followed.

It's silly, disturbing, and just plain wrong to have an incident like this.

In speaking to the rest of the thread, was up by Fullerton the other week and said a prayer for Kelly Thomas's soul, that it rests in peace.

I don't usually do that.

This is a terrible idea. Milwaukee tried no chase policing. They have reversed their decision. 

Problem with no chase is that criminals start to realize that fleeing becomes a good strategy. 

People argue "so what, you have the vehicle info, just arrest them later" 

Those people have bad information. The people fleeing are often already wanted for something else. So obviously "arrest them later" is a pretty awful strategy. Especially when the vehicle being driven is also often not registered to them. 

 

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16 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

This is a terrible idea. Milwaukee tried no chase policing. They have reversed their decision. 

Problem with no chase is that criminals start to realize that fleeing becomes a good strategy. 

People argue "so what, you have the vehicle info, just arrest them later" 

Those people have bad information. The people fleeing are often already wanted for something else. So obviously "arrest them later" is a pretty awful strategy. Especially when the vehicle being driven is also often not registered to them. 

 

I don't think you even read what I wrote before you called it terrible. I'd read more carefully next time.  

And try not -- not that I'm offended or wanked or anything -- to make other people's arguments my own through anticipatory negation of debate. You'll find, with me, I'm not offering trite positions and that they'll be generally off of the beaten path. 

Thx; 

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4 minutes ago, rockaction said:

I don't think you even read what I wrote before you called it terrible. I'd read more carefully next time.  

And try not -- not that I'm offended or wanked or anything -- to make other people's arguments my own through anticipatory negation of debate. You'll find, with me, I'm not offering trite positions and that they'll be generally off of the beaten path. 

Thx; 

So you are in favor of chasing suspects?

Count me in as thinking that high speed chases should not be engaged nor allowed unless the most stringent of protocols is engaged and followed.

 

I'm a natural law sympathizer, and there is virtually no societal reason not to let the property go to the thieving victors other than general deterrence

 

 

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1 minute ago, parasaurolophus said:

So you are in favor of chasing suspects?

Count me in as thinking that high speed chases should not be engaged nor allowed unless the most stringent of protocols is engaged and followed.

 

I'm a natural law sympathizer, and there is virtually no societal reason not to let the property go to the thieving victors other than general deterrence

 

 

The bolded seems -- and I'm not being contentious here -- that I'm not above high speed chases in certain instances. But I would reduce the number and danger of them, especially including citizen forfeiture of their own property at the whims of the police. 

The second italic goes further and recognizes general deterrence as the reason for these chases, so your post about other people's arguments missed my point even more. 

To wit: 

Not in favor in general, if specifics and protocol allow it, okay

Err massively on side of caution

Certainly not in favor of public shootouts, seizure of property, e.g., other people's cars

Property, traditionally understood, gives way to life and limb concerns under natural law. By far. 

Ergo, since I'm more a natural law guy, property loses to life and limb. 

This should be clear by now.  

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1 hour ago, parasaurolophus said:

Problem with no chase is that criminals start to realize that fleeing becomes a good strategy. 

of course - did anyone ever think they wouldn't ?

 

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Not killed, but...

Alabama woman, 19, shot as authorities open fire, raid home in search of man who was already in jail

An Alabama woman was shot last week by authorities who entered her home in search of a man — who had already been booked at the local jail the day prior — and officials are chalking the situation up to a "miscommunication."

Ann Rylee, 19, was at home in Wilmer on Thursday morning when Mobile County sheriff's deputies and federal officers from Homeland Security and the U.S. Marshals Office descended upon her property, looking for Nicholas McLeod, a 41-year-old man who is the uncle of Rylee's fiancé.

Investigators approached the house and detained two men outside, who told them there was a woman — Rylee — in the house, according to Mobile County Sheriff Sam Cochran, who told WALA-TV "this lady had armed herself with a shotgun and the entry team was giving her orders to drop the gun, put the gun down, drop the gun several times over a period of a few seconds it seems like."

"She didn't and she pointed the gun at one of them — then two or three agents fired upon her, striking her three or four times," Cochran said.

Rylee was hospitalized, underwent surgery and is expected to survive, her fiancé, Christopher McLeod said. He said authorities were at the home looking for his uncle, "who used to live at that house years ago."

Nicholas McLeod, the man authorities were looking for, was arrested on Wednesday — a day before the shooting — and booked at the Mobile Jail on charges of possession of drug paraphernalia and evidence tampering.

It wasn't immediately clear how authorities didn't realize Nicholas McLeod was already locked up, but the sheriff called the situation a "miscommunication."

"We've narrowed it down to one of two things: The investigators did not make one final check this morning to send teams out to make the arrests or warrants section did not communicate to the computer system — that the warrants were no longer active. We're running that down," Cochran told the news outlet.

The sheriff, who said it wasn't any of his own deputies who fired their weapons, added: "However, if she would not have pointed a gun at the agents — they would have determined all of that on the scene and would have bid her a good day and thank you very much."

But Rylee's fiancé said the 19-year-old woman was asleep on a recliner in their living room when investigators showed up at their house on Thursday. He said he was outside emptying the trash with a friend before going to work when multiple officers, armed with rifles and wearing body armor, pulled up in vehicles and demanded they put their hands up.

He said they keep a shotgun in their living room for protection. Christopher McLeod said two federal marshals who had approached the home started yelling “gun” and fired multiple times before Rylee was shot.

“I just hope she's OK. That's my No. 1,” Christopher McLeod said. “It's just so unfortunate because none of this needed to happen, it had nothing to do with us. We're just victims of an unfortunate situation.”

There is reportedly no body camera footage of what unfolded at the home in Wilmer because the Mobile County Sheriff's Office doesn't own body cameras. Cochran did say, however, that "there is video recordings" of authorities asking her to drop a weapon.

Edited by Amused to Death

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We should be united on this issue.  I don't understand at all why not.  

Nobody wants crime, or lawlessness.  But we should all be appropriately concerned about the State's power over it's citizens.  All of us.

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5 minutes ago, Sweet J said:

We should be united on this issue.  I don't understand at all why not.  

Nobody wants crime, or lawlessness.  But we should all be appropriately concerned about the State's power over it's citizens.  All of us.

Because politics. Each side is incentivized to go to the extreme to rally their side.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Sweet J said:

We should be united on this issue.  I don't understand at all why not.  

Nobody wants crime, or lawlessness.  But we should all be appropriately concerned about the State's power over it's citizens.  All of us.

Agreed. Would love to hear the leaders of New York explain this one

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13 minutes ago, Sweet J said:

We should be united on this issue.  I don't understand at all why not. 

Because sometimes the two sides come from radically differing agendas, sometimes borne out to bear.

When I get a chance, I'll do my best to outline why this obvious agreement toward an orderly and peaceful yet free society is so frowned upon, by both sides of the aisle. 

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