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Another killing at the hands of the Police

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7 minutes ago, msommer said:

Not sure this plays well outside of his base.

He’s going to blame this on Democrats, CNN, fake news, deep state, etc etc in the hopes of gaining undecideds. I read his twitter just to get an idea of how he wants to spin things. Honestly, if someone is still undecided, sadly I believe his strategy could work.

The true problem with those protesting (and this goes for any protest) is that they struggle to have a clear message, lack organization, leadership, goals, demands, and they’re easily infiltrated by criminals. It’s almost always too much to overcome and execute. 

 

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Blick said:

I wonder how much different the last few nights would have gone if a true grass roots movement would have been allowed to take place without the influence of agitators like ANTIFA and others. 

why even call them ANTIFA, call them by their real name, communists. 

 

Btw, if you look at the riot videos in almost every one of them, its a white communist that breaks the first window.

Edited by giantcookie
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4 minutes ago, rockaction said:

That actually would be somebody like me, but even if I had been mad about Kaepernick protesting, that wouldn't disqualify me from saying political protest on public grounds is a fundamental right whereas Kaepernick exercised his actions in a private market, albeit in a public setting. It's such a huge difference that I can't believe the obtuseness that goes into writing something like that.

I’m not gonna respond in kind but my question to you is, do you really believe that most of the people who were against the NFL kneeling protests were against it before the nuanced reasons that you’ve alluded to in your post?  That their whole outrage was simply because this was being done within the confines of a private business?

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5 minutes ago, msommer said:

Don't disturb the military, the anthem, traffic, tv viewers, church goers, weapon purchasers or any one, really. In fact if you could protest so no one notices or cares, that would be appreciated. TIA

:sarcasm:

Except that everyone DID notice. Seems to me the end result was...ineffective. 

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I really want to see black america thrive and succeed.  I'm a white guy, but we've seen black people excel and rise across so many fields.  What's going on hasn't worked and we also know historically, rioting does not work, it does not change anything, its a money shot and its done.   I don't blame these people though, purely, its probably modeling behavior and it feels like your only recourse and as a young man I, and probably many of us here, had some kind of  a destruction phase.  Because when you're young, black or white, you get put in a car thats already rolling and you have no power, and you have no perspective of what takes an hour, or 1000 hours to build takes a minute to destroy.   THAT is power. 

But its futile and fruitless when you run out of things to burn.  You learn that with age I think.  So the real power comes in building, things, careers, a job, a family, a life.   So rioting, is a failed experiment. 

What I'd hope can be instilled is to take this energy of these young people to play the long game.  Because white America is probably scared by 10,000 black rioters.  But they'd be even more scared by 10,000 black lawyers and CEOs.

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While seeing the events unfold before our eyes is horrific and tragic, my hope is one day we celebrate these specific events, just like we already celebrate these events in our current past.

Call these events what you will, but history will eventually chose a word for them. If these people finally win and defeat the systemic racist culture that they've suffered from all their lives, and there parent, grand parents, and great grand parents suffered from before them, then history will call these events a "revolution". Today, some people are outraged by the destruction they are causing, but so was Ben Franklin:

Quote

LONDON, Feb. 2, 1774

Gentlemen: I received the Honour of your Letter dated Decr. 21, containing a distinct Account of the Proceedings at Boston relative to the Tea imported there, and of the Circumstances that occasioned its Destruction. I communicated the same to Lord Dartmouth, with some other Advices of the same import. It is yet unknown what Measures will be taken here on the Occasion; but the Clamour against the Proceedings is high and general. I am truly concern’d, as I believe all considerate Men are with you, that there should seem to any a Necessity for carrying Matters to such Extremity, as, in a Dispute about Publick Rights, to destroy private Property; This (notwithstanding the Blame justly due to those who obstructed the Return of the Tea) it is impossible to justify with People so prejudiced in favour of the Power of Parliament to tax America, as most are in this Country.

As the India Company however are not our Adversaries, and the offensive Measure of sending their Teas did not take its Rise with them, but was an Expedient of the Ministry to serve them and yet avoid a Repeal of the old Act, I cannot but wish & hope that before any compulsive Measures are thought of here, our General court will have shewn a Disposition to repair the Damage and make Compensation to the Company. This all our Friends here wish with me; and that if War is finally to be made upon us, which some threaten, an Act or violent injustice on our part, unrectified, may not give a colourable Pretence for it. A speedy Reparation will immediately set us right in the Opinion of all Europe. And tho’ the Mischief was the Act of Persons unknown, yet as probably they cannot be found or brought to answer for it, there seems to be some reasonable Claim on the Society at large in which it happened. Making voluntarily such Reparation can be no Dishonour to us or Prejudice to our Claim or Rights, since Parliament here has frequently considered in the same Light similar Cases; and only a few Years since, when a valuable Saw-mill, which had been destroyed by a Number of Persons supposed to be Sawyers, but unknown, a Grant was made out of the Publick Treasury of Two Thousand Pounds to the Owner as a Compensation—I hope in thus freely (and perhaps too forwardly) expressing my Sentiments & Wishes, I shall not give Offence to any. I am sure I mean well; being over with sincere Affection to my native Country, and great Respect to the Assembly and yourselves,

Gentlemen, Your most obedient and most humble Servant

B. FRANKLIN,

Honble Thomas Cushing, Sam’l Adams, John Hancock, William Phillips, Esquires.

Ben Franklin was being a gentleman in the words he chose in his letter to rectify the destruction that took place in the Boston Tea Party. If social media existed in the 1770's, words such as "thugs" and "looters" would have been common and frequent descriptions of those who committed the violent act. 

As we know from history, it escalated... in to all out war. Because England lost, it was labeled "The Revolutionary War". If England had won, it would probably be called "The Colonist's Riots" and those we deem today as being "Patriots and Forefathers" would instead be labeled as "thugs" and "rioters" and "criminals" and "traitors" and pretty much all the words being used today by those offended by this week's riots.

I hope today, that the rioters win. I hope today that they get what they want. This is there revolutionary war. This is their moment to fight against government oppression. Our forefathers revolted because of "taxation without representation". These people today are revolting because of systemic racism towards them. These people today are revolting because they are being murdered by their government. They are fighting for even more liberty than our forefathers fought for. I hope they win. They need to win. They must win. Our country is sick with racism that for whatever reason we can't seem to let go of without a revolution. 

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1 minute ago, giantcookie said:

why even call them ANTIFA, call them by their real name, communists. 

They're nihilists. 

Nihilism - Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy.

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1 minute ago, Andy Dufresne said:

Except that everyone DID notice. Seems to me the end result was...ineffective. 

I’m not so sure. Typically we aren’t going to change order peoples/generations opinions on social issues but the younger generations are way more sympathetic to racial inequality and injustice than previous generations and I do believe that it’s in part because of social media, celebrity culture speaking to it and protest like the NFL.

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Just now, mr roboto said:

I’m not gonna respond in kind but my question to you is, do you really believe that most of the people who were against the NFL kneeling protests were against it before the nuanced reasons that you’ve alluded to in your post?  That their whole outrage was simply because this was being done within the confines of a private business?

I went back and re-read that. I believe I intoned that position was obtuse. That's strong wording and I rescind it with apology. But to your question: Yes, I believe most people on this board can and do draw that distinction. They're literate, and somewhat nuanced, and the false dichotomy you posited is a gaping hole you can drive a truck through.

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2 minutes ago, Politician Spock said:

I hope today, that the rioters win. I hope today that they get what they want. This is there revolutionary war. This is their moment to fight against government oppression. Our forefathers revolted because of "taxation without representation". These people today are revolting because of systemic racism towards them. These people today are revolting because they are being murdered by their government. They are fighting for even more liberty than our forefathers fought for. I hope they win. They need to win. They must win. Our country is sick with racism that for whatever reason we can't seem to let go of without a revolution. 

This is almost categorically untrue. What happened to you?

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2 minutes ago, Smack Tripper said:

I really want to see black america thrive and succeed.  I'm a white guy, but we've seen black people excel and rise across so many fields.  What's going on hasn't worked and we also know historically, rioting does not work, it does not change anything, its a money shot and its done.   I don't blame these people though, purely, its probably modeling behavior and it feels like your only recourse and as a young man I, and probably many of us here, had some kind of  a destruction phase.  Because when you're young, black or white, you get put in a car thats already rolling and you have no power, and you have no perspective of what takes an hour, or 1000 hours to build takes a minute to destroy.   THAT is power. 

But its futile and fruitless when you run out of things to burn.  You learn that with age I think.  So the real power comes in building, things, careers, a job, a family, a life.   So rioting, is a failed experiment. 

What I'd hope can be instilled is to take this energy of these young people to play the long game.  Because white America is probably scared by 10,000 black rioters.  But they'd be even more scared by 10,000 black lawyers and CEOs.

Good post, agree.  But I’m a white guy and want to know why I should be afraid of black lawyers and ceo’s.   Just trying to figure out if it’s something I need to start working against.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, HellToupee said:

Everyone seems connected in this murder . Floyd/Chauvin worked in the same club , Thao stands around ho-hum as his brother in-law kills Floyd 

The two aren’t related (from what was mentioned yesterday).

Edited by Witz

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2 minutes ago, rockaction said:

I went back and re-read that. I believe I intoned that position was obtuse. That's strong wording and I rescind it with apology. But to your question: Yes, I believe most people on this board can and do draw that distinction. They're literate, and somewhat nuanced, and the false dichotomy you posited is a gaping hole you can drive a truck through.

I think you’re overestimating the nuance of the position but to each their own. I think most people who didn’t like those protests just didn’t like their football being interrupted by inconvenient truth about things that they themselves don’t feel like confronting. I’m not claiming that that’s your rationale but I do believe that that’s a vast majority.

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7 minutes ago, mr roboto said:

I’m not gonna respond in kind but my question to you is, do you really believe that most of the people who were against the NFL kneeling protests were against it before the nuanced reasons that you’ve alluded to in your post?  That their whole outrage was simply because this was being done within the confines of a private business?

Of course not. And I would wager anything that the vast majority of them didn’t do a damn thing to speak out and act against police brutality.

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7 minutes ago, fantasycurse42 said:

He’s going to blame this on Democrats, CNN, fake news, deep state, etc etc in the hopes of gaining undecideds. I read his twitter just to get an idea of how he wants to spin things. Honestly, if someone is still undecided, sadly I believe his strategy could work.

 

Doubt those arguments strike home outside of his base, it's just a remix of his greatest hits and he's been losing support among independents and even the geriatric crowd with that already

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1 hour ago, Dinsy Ejotuz said:

So kneeling is bad.  BLM is bad.  Rioting is bad.

What is the "right" way to protest the execution of black people live on camera with no charges forthcoming?

No charges?

Never heard of MLK?

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Bucsfan5493 said:

Of course not. And I would wager anything that the vast majority of them didn’t do a damn thing to speak out and act against police brutality.

Correct. But that’s human nature. It’s hard to get people to care about something that doesn’t actually impact them at all. Which is why sometimes groups resort to things like shutting down interstates and rioting and taking over cities. I wish this wasn’t happening to my city and I believe that there’s way too much violence and destruction going on that is distracting from the issue but one cannot ignore the fact that a lot of people who wouldn’t normally care about these things are now paying attention.

Edited by mr roboto
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This was funny but not funny.

Last night on our local 11pm newscast a reporter was live in downtown Detroit reporting on the protest going on.  There was a lot of people and a large police presence. It was getting rowdy and while the reporter was talking about police brutality a protester throws something at this black Detroit cop and hits him..right behind the reporter live on camera the cop throws the protester down and is punching his face in, then another cop comes over and they both cuff and drag the guy away.

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1 minute ago, tonydead said:

No charges?

Never heard of MLK?

Though he certainly tried, Martin Luther King was unable to defeat systemic racism among this nations police forces. And over 50 years after his death it still exists. 

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8 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

This is almost categorically untrue. What happened to you?

I can't even fathom the amount of denial necessary for one to believe it's untrue. 

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3 minutes ago, Bucsfan5493 said:

Of course not. And I would wager anything that the vast majority of them didn’t do a damn thing to speak out and act against police brutality.

 

1 minute ago, mr roboto said:

Correct. But that’s human nature. It’s hard to get people to care about something that doesn’t actually impact them at all. Which is why sometimes groups resort to things like shutting down interstates and riding and taking over cities. I wish this wasn’t happening to my city and I believe that there’s way too much violence and destruction going on that is distracting from the issue but one cannot ignore the fact that a lot of people who wouldn’t normally care about these things are now paying attention.

Guys, I'm on the phone and I'm listening.

What am I/are we supposed to do as citizens? March down to the police office, wag a finger around, and declare that they better not be brutal to any offenders? 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Dinsy Ejotuz said:

So kneeling is bad.  BLM is bad.  Rioting is bad.

What is the "right" way to protest the execution of black people live on camera with no charges forthcoming?

BLM is good, the people responsible for rioting are white communists in ANTIFA/random thugs, they literally broke the first window on every video ive watched.

Edited by giantcookie
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Just now, Politician Spock said:

I can't even fathom the amount of denial necessary for one to believe it's untrue. 

I can't fathom that you actually think these rioters are interested in the slightest in reform. You're almost completely on an island with that.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, djmich said:

Good post, agree.  But I’m a white guy and want to know why I should be afraid of black lawyers and ceo’s.   Just trying to figure out if it’s something I need to start working against.

You don't have to and you shouldn't but my only point is, if people are truly racist, they'd fear fixed power more than this temporary lash out that fleeting.  THAT is generational change.

Edited by Smack Tripper

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3 minutes ago, mr roboto said:

Correct. But that’s human nature. It’s hard to get people to care about something that doesn’t actually impact them at all. Which is why sometimes groups resort to things like shutting down interstates and rioting and taking over cities. I wish this wasn’t happening to my city and I believe that there’s way too much violence and destruction going on that is distracting from the issue but one cannot ignore the fact that a lot of people who wouldn’t normally care about these things are now paying attention.

Couldn’t agree more with all of this. 

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27 minutes ago, mr roboto said:

Also, if any of you who are complaining about the physical violence and looting  but saying protesting is OK, I sure hope if we go through your posting history that you were in favor of the kneeling at NFL games and other types of nonviolent protest that tried to draw attention to the discrepancies in policing between white and black communities.

Thanks. I don't need to go through my posting history. To me and many other veterans Kaepernick's actions were highly offensive. These protests are targeted at a specific, unacceptable behavior that directly involve the two parties involved in the grievance. Sorry if you don't get that. 

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2 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

I can't fathom that you actually think these rioters are interested in the slightest in reform. You're almost completely on an island with that.

Opinions like this is why their revolution is so hard. 

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13 minutes ago, Politician Spock said:

 

I hope today, that the rioters win. I hope today that they get what they want. This is there revolutionary war. This is their moment to fight against government oppression. Our forefathers revolted because of "taxation without representation". These people today are revolting because of systemic racism towards them. These people today are revolting because they are being murdered by their government. They are fighting for even more liberty than our forefathers fought for. I hope they win. They need to win. They must win. Our country is sick with racism that for whatever reason we can't seem to let go of without a revolution. 

This is simply awful. Yes I want change. Yes I want an end to systemic racism, But burning things down and anarchy will never achieve that. 
And it makes no sense. You burn down some small business: a nail salon, an insurance office, a dry cleaners: how is that fighting against government oppression? 

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35 minutes ago, Challenge Everything said:

Also, how many posters or others not on the boards or even commentators have said they will revolt, riot, call to arms, this November if Trump loses, or elections are in question, or things don't go their way. It's all okay when the shoe is on the other foot.

Can you link to someone saying this?  I've literally never encountered anybody like you're describing.

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41 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

They're estimating that 80% of rioters in Minneapolis are from out of town. How far out (different MN city?, different state?), they didn't say. 

Calling bs on that one. Governor actually said out of state. 

 

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4 minutes ago, PhantomJB said:

Thanks. I don't need to go through my posting history. To me and many other veterans Kaepernick's actions were highly offensive. These protests are targeted at a specific, unacceptable behavior that directly involve the two parties involved in the grievance. Sorry if you don't get that. 

This isn’t true. if it was, then Floyd’s arrest would have stopped the protests last night. 
These protests are NOT limited to Floyd. His death was merely the last straw. There is absolutely no difference between the peaceful protests last night and those of Kaepernick. They were protesting the exact same thing. 

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3 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

 

Guys, I'm on the phone and I'm listening.

What am I/are we supposed to do as citizens? March down to the police office, wag a finger around, and declare that they better not be brutal to any offenders? 

I’m not sure what the solution is other than demanding better and for change from our leaders and police force. Protesting is obviously the logical thing to grab people’s attention but unfortunately I’ve still seen no plan in action from leadership to address police brutality and revamp the police force and its mentality. 

It seems like there’s been more attention on this from white people who wouldn’t usually speak out which is great making people uncomfortable who are still in denial about police brutality and racial injustice, but we need actual change coming within the police force if things are going to get better. 

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16 minutes ago, Smack Tripper said:

I really want to see black america thrive and succeed.  I'm a white guy, but we've seen black people excel and rise across so many fields.  What's going on hasn't worked and we also know historically, rioting does not work, it does not change anything, its a money shot and its done.   I don't blame these people though, purely, its probably modeling behavior and it feels like your only recourse and as a young man I, and probably many of us here, had some kind of  a destruction phase.  Because when you're young, black or white, you get put in a car thats already rolling and you have no power, and you have no perspective of what takes an hour, or 1000 hours to build takes a minute to destroy.   THAT is power. 

But its futile and fruitless when you run out of things to burn.  You learn that with age I think.  So the real power comes in building, things, careers, a job, a family, a life.   So rioting, is a failed experiment. 

What I'd hope can be instilled is to take this energy of these young people to play the long game.  Because white America is probably scared by 10,000 black rioters.  But they'd be even more scared by 10,000 black lawyers and CEOs.

I’m 100% with you until the last paragraph. I would like nothing more than young people to take the personal responsibility to improve their lives. Less poverty, less crime, stronger families, etc, etc, etc would result. 

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4 minutes ago, Politician Spock said:

Opinions like this is why their revolution is so hard. 

You're right - because their "revolution" isn't one at all; it's destruction and destruction alone.

And no reasonable, civilized person is going to support that.

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4 minutes ago, timschochet said:

This is simply awful. Yes I want change. Yes I want an end to systemic racism, But burning things down and anarchy will never achieve that. 
And it makes no sense. You burn down some small business: a nail salon, an insurance office, a dry cleaners: how is that fighting against government oppression? 

Wars are awful. But fighting for freedom from government oppression is something to be celebrated. It's American.  

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Just now, Andy Dufresne said:

You're right - because their "revolution" isn't one at all; it's destruction and destruction alone.

And no reasonable, civilized person is going to support that.

CNN did, until it happened to their building.

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2 minutes ago, Blick said:

I’m 100% with you until the last paragraph. I would like nothing more than young people to take the personal responsibility to improve their lives. Less poverty, less crime, stronger families, etc, etc, etc would result. 

They can’t do it on their own. 

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3 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Calling bs on that one. Governor actually said out of state. 

 

I don't understand what you're calling BS on. 

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18 minutes ago, mr roboto said:

I think you’re overestimating the nuance of the position but to each their own. I think most people who didn’t like those protests just didn’t like their football being interrupted by inconvenient truth about things that they themselves don’t feel like confronting. I’m not claiming that that’s your rationale but I do believe that that’s a vast majority.

Hi, that's me.  I'm a civil libertarian who is opposed to police brutality.  I do not need a lecture on the subject when I sit down to watch a football game.  Not going to apologize for that.

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Just now, Politician Spock said:

Wars are awful. But fighting for freedom from government oppression is something to be celebrated. It's American.  

Well you didn’t answer my question, so I’ll put to you again. How is burning down a dry cleaners fighting for freedom from government oppression? 

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Just now, timschochet said:

They can’t do it on their own. 

And they can’t be helped if they don’t help themselves. 

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1 minute ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Hi, that's me.  I'm a civil libertarian who is opposed to police brutality.  I do not need a lecture on the subject when I sit down to watch a football game.  Not going to apologize for that.

And that’s fine. But that’s not the faux patriotic anger that Trump was trying to stoke. 

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1 minute ago, Blick said:

And they can’t be helped if they don’t help themselves. 

Well we can debate that forever (and no doubt somebody will.) But although systemic racism by the police is certainly intertwined with this issue, it really needs to stand on its own as a problem to be addressed. 

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From the Star Tribune:
"Shaken by another night of chaos, Gov. Tim Walz will fully mobilize the National Guard to combat what he called a “tightly controlled” group of outside agitators who have turned city streets into scenes of looting and arson."

Interesting. Does that imply that they know who is behind these outside agitators? I wonder who that could be (no really, I'm don't know and am not speculating at all). 

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I figured this had to be the work of out-of-state agitators.  Everybody knows that when true Minnesotans go to a riot, they bring a hot dish to pass.

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42 minutes ago, mr roboto said:

Also, if any of you who are complaining about the physical violence and looting  but saying protesting is OK, I sure hope if we go through your posting history that you were in favor of the kneeling at NFL games and other types of nonviolent protest that tried to draw attention to the discrepancies in policing between white and black communities.

Of course not, it has nothing to do with protesting and everything to do with the loss of subservience. Anything besides taking it without complaint would be too much. It is always the same thing of "well, if they did it the OTHER way I would be all for it". Why can't they just peacefully demonstrate? <Peaceful demonstration> No, not like that. It does not even have to do with protests, it is the same false "I am just a moderate who does not like what they are doing, if only they did it the other way you would see how unbiased I am". You see it with political candidates here "well, of course I would vote for the OTHER candidate as an independent unbiased highly intelligent person, an arbiter of reason, but they just chose this one who I will not vote for" with the obvious joke being that they would say that for any candidate. 

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1 minute ago, Andy Dufresne said:

From the Star Tribune:
"Shaken by another night of chaos, Gov. Tim Walz will fully mobilize the National Guard to combat what he called a “tightly controlled” group of outside agitators who have turned city streets into scenes of looting and arson."

Interesting. Does that imply that they know who is behind these outside agitators? I wonder who that could be (no really, I'm don't know and am not speculating at all). 

IMO he needs to be careful with the phrase “outside agitators” because it’s coded language from the old civil rights days. 
That being said, he’s understandably attempting to avoid alienating his own constituency. 

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4 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

From the Star Tribune:
"Shaken by another night of chaos, Gov. Tim Walz will fully mobilize the National Guard to combat what he called a “tightly controlled” group of outside agitators who have turned city streets into scenes of looting and arson."

Interesting. Does that imply that they know who is behind these outside agitators? I wonder who that could be (no really, I'm don't know and am not speculating at all). 

Didn’t they say ANTIFA and White Supremacists?

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Well, I'm going to go have a day.

This thread, however, reminds me of the heydays of the FBG FFA - where reasonable people discussed things reasonably even when they disagree.

Good stuff, (mostly) all. :hifive:

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