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Another killing at the hands of the Police

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6 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I figured this had to be the work of out-of-state agitators.  Everybody knows that when true Minnesotans go to a riot, they bring a hot dish to pass.

Happening in other cities as well.  

https://twitter.com/biden_brigade/status/1266673677078274048?s=21

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15 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

You're right - because their "revolution" isn't one at all; it's destruction and destruction alone.

And no reasonable, civilized person is going to support that.

I think we all agree that executing helpless prisoners and burning buildings is wrong.

Based on roughly 10,000 days of data, it seems like the burning of buildings doesn't happen without the execution of innocent prisoners.  So maybe we should focus on that?

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43 minutes ago, giantcookie said:

why even call them ANTIFA, call them by their real name, communists. 

 

Btw, if you look at the riot videos in almost every one of them, its a white communist that breaks the first window.

I'd imagine that's more of a Trumper Actor trying to start stuff and incite the riots.  

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3 minutes ago, PhantomJB said:

Yes. It is absolutely true. Read what I said more carefully.

It's not the "what" that was being protested it's the "how." The timing and form Kaepernick's tactics (that @rockaction articulated very well in his post) offended just as many if not more people than he gained sympathy from. 

It's not for you and the protesters tell potential sympathizers and allies why they are offended by one protest and completely supportive of other forms. If protestors want support, they should be the ones adapting their tactics accordingly.

I understand why you think Kaepernick’s protest was ineffective and you make a good point as to that; I made a similar point at the time. But you haven’t really explained why you were offended by it. 

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“The limitation of riots is that they cannot win and their participants know it. Hence, rioting is not revolutionary but reactionary because it invites defeat. It involves an emotional catharsis, but it must be followed by a sense of futility.” ~MLK

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Posted (edited)

The solution would be to improve our police force by recalling and banning all surplus military equipment (some town of 3000 people does not need an APC), better hiring practices to weed out those that seek the role for authority and power over others, and greater accountability where anyone abusing the system is punished, and not covered up by fellow officers (which people still insist are good apples just because they did not do the crime), which are then covered up by a pro-police DA office, which are then covered up by pro-police politicians. If the accidental death happened and a proper investigation and punishment took place I think there would be less anger. However, time and time again it seems like the law is "I don't feel like arresting myself today" and there is almost never punishment or even an investigation so that it has become a complete farce. 

All the discussion about the proper form of protest is completely meaningless, because without changing the police you will set the stage for the next riot or protest next year, and the year after that, and the year after that. 

Edited by huthut
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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, timschochet said:

It’s not relevant. Neither is the story that is going around conservative websites of a black cop choking a white kid to death. 

Floyds death is not a single instance of bad behavior; it’s part of a pattern of systemic racism: white cops against black people. 

Disagreed, I think it’s relevant. The main focus of the protest is to bring attention to police brutality and that the police force needs to be revamped. Yes, a lot of the attention is on the fact that blacks are disproportionately the victims of police brutality, but at the end of the day everyone is looking for change within the police force. We want cops disciplined when they abuse their power (not just for murdering someone), we want cops to go through reformed training that teaches them to not use force or escalate situations, we want rigorous background checks that doesn’t allow cops who have a violent past or have extremist views to get through the system, we want cops to hold each other accountable and change the mentality within the police force. These are the things that need to happen if we want to see true change in regards to police brutality.

Edited by Bucsfan5493
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11 minutes ago, giantcookie said:

Has anyone posted this yet?

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/investigations/2019/07/31/you-re-gonna-kill-me-dallas-police-body-cam-footage-reveals-the-final-minutes-of-tony-timpa-s-life/

white cops kill a white guy in a similar way, mock him, none of the cops were charged.

 

Interesting quote from the article:

Quote

For a person who is restrained and gasping for air, the instinct often is to panic and struggle.  Officers may interpret this as resisting and apply more pressure to the person’s back.

“It’s a lethal cycle that happens,” Heipt said

I’m not saying it was the case in this recent death, but it makes sense that stuff like this can happen.

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12 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

How do you feel generally about playing the national anthem before football games?  

I've always thought it was kind of weird.  A long time ago, fatguyinalittle coat mentioned feeling this way, and it was kind of a revelation to realize that it's not just me.

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I understand why you think Kaepernick’s protest was ineffective and you make a good point as to that; I made a similar point at the time. But you haven’t really explained why you were offended by it. 

Happy to but that is a whole separate conversation. And like you I articulated those reasons ad nauseum while it was going on.

Abstract it out and the protestors are selling a product...that product being their message and cause...if some people are buying one version of it and not the other it's for them to figure out why and make the requisite adjustments...not to cram the unwanted version down their throats.

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6 minutes ago, Bucsfan5493 said:

Disagreed, I think it’s relevant. The main focus of the protest is to bring attention to police brutality and that the police force needs to be revamped. Yes, a lot of the attention is on the fact that blacks are disproportionately the victims of police brutality, but at the end of the day everyone is looking for change within the police force. We want cops disciplined when they abuse their power (not just for murdering someone), we want cops to go through reformed training that teaches them to not use force or escalate situations, we want rigorous background checks that doesn’t allow cops who have a violent past or have extremist views to get through the system, we want cops to hold each other accountable and change the mentality within the police force. These are the things that need to happen if we want to see true change in regards to police brutality.

Yep

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I'm honestly just worn out at this point, been running on 3-4 hours of sleep for the last 4 days, so I'm going to try to stay away for a bit for my own mental health, but I do want to say something this morning.

It is interesting to see some higher level semi-confirmation from Walz and the mayors that there are outside agitators involved in a lot of this. It is something that I began to suspect from watching livestreams last night -- small groups of unidentifiable white men systematically moving from building to building, breaking through the plywood lighting fires and yelling to get out and moving on. They were frequently confronted by people of color demanding to know why they were setting their community on fire, but would always just run on to the next area.

It certainly could be anarchists or other more radical left wing agitators -- we do have those types up here. But, to be frank, I'm socially adjacent to some people in that community. I would call several of them good friends. I have heard no calls for anything like this, no relishing the burning of our city. 

However, I'm becoming more and more concerned that it might be something a lot more nefarious, and with potential to be a much bigger problem for our country. I've seen some other people mention it, but there's a growing movement online to organize and kick off a second Civil War. Bellingcat has a very long, excellent article detailing what these groups are and how they proliferate (it isn't just right wing militia types, though they are heavily represented). Near the end, there's some picture and text evidence from one of these "Boogaloo" groups showing that they are in Minneapolis and attempting to make this happen. 

I'd also remind everyone that a white supremacist from Bloomington and his buddies were sentenced in 2017 for shooting protesters at the 4th Precinct BLM encampment for Jamar Clark in 2015. So we do have some unfortunate recent history on exactly this kind of thing. 

Walz has said that they have received intelligence from Federal authorities about white supremacists operating in the area, and also said that the identities of those arrested would be made public. I'll be interested to see that information when it is available.

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1 hour ago, Summer Wheat said:

I never cared who kneeled but how did that kneeling protest work out for Mr. Floyd? During that time people were still getting beat and shot by police as nothing changed.  People can kneel all they want on TV as that is the easy part.  The hard part is on the actual streets.  Kneeling does nothing to prevent what happens in the streets every day.

CK's and other athletes "peaceful protests" were meant to cast light on what they perceived/knew about relations sometimes between law enforcement and minorities.  I'd imagine an argument could be made that if, the target audience for those "protests" (i.e. ......people who either don't know about the sometimes tenuous relationship between law enforement/minorities or hadn't had a similar experience with law enforcement that the athletes or people they knew had)... instead of complaining that their "OmG!.....MY HoLe SuNDAe FoOTBaLl ExPeRiEnCE Is RUinEEED!".....actually took a moment to listen (and maybe reflect and act on it)....... Mr. Floyd wouldn't have died.

I know there are manipulative ##### in that rioting crowd that have no interest in the social issue at hand.  There are people who just want free stuff....people who want to watch the world burn.  But there are real people who are protesting (and I'm sure the rioting) who are thinking to themselves..."if people who could help us make a difference complained so much when men who they cheer for, invite into their homes every week and love for what the do in a game...how else can we do for them to take notice?"  

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This is a prime example of why it is so hard to follow stories via social media these days. I’ve read everything from Antifa to white supremecists to undercover cops are getting involved in this chaos.

would love some clarity from officials. 

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9 minutes ago, timschochet said:

He’s wrong. And this blaming the news media is irrational and incredibly dangerous to a civilized society. 

Couldn’t disagree more, the news/entertainment/political media is much at fault.

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44 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

I can't fathom that you actually think these rioters are interested in the slightest in reform. You're almost completely on an island with that.

Is this shtick? Unless I’ve missed something, reform is exactly what they seem to want.  

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13 minutes ago, timschochet said:

He’s wrong. And this blaming the news media is irrational and incredibly dangerous to a civilized society. 

Did you miss him blaming white/black/browns cops and their cop culture. 

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1 minute ago, Thunderlips said:

CK's and other athletes "peaceful protests" were meant to cast light on what they perceived/knew about relations sometimes between law enforcement and minorities.  I'd imagine an argument could be made that if, the target audience for those "protests" (i.e. ......people who either don't know about the sometimes tenuous relationship between law enforement/minorities or hadn't had a similar experience with law enforcement that the athletes or people they knew had)... instead of complaining that their "OmG!.....MY HoLe SuNDAe FoOTBaLl ExPeRiEnCE Is RUinEEED!".....actually took a moment to listen (and maybe reflect and act on it)....... Mr. Floyd wouldn't have died.

I know there are manipulative ##### in that rioting crowd that have no interest in the social issue at hand.  There are people who just want free stuff....people who want to watch the world burn.  But there are real people who are protesting (and I'm sure the rioting) who are thinking to themselves..."if people who could help us make a difference complained so much when men who they cheer for, invite into their homes every week and love for what the do in a game...how else can we do for them to take notice?"  

This is beating a dead horse.   honestly I could care lees if the whole team kneels, it is irrelevant to me in terms of watching a football game.  The message for the kneeling protest was lost about 2 weeks in and then it was perceived only as a NA protest.  I never heard any talk about the reason they first started sitting or kneeling.

So when the message is lost and narrative is changed you need to be creative and find a new avenue to get your message across.

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Can you link to someone saying this?  I've literally never encountered anybody like you're describing.

There are way too many posts and posters to sift through on this forum to go back 1, 2, 3, or more years even using keyword searches (although I haven't tried) however:

- “I think you’d have riots,” Trump told CNN on Wednesday.

- Violence in the name of Trump

- Riots aren't necessarily a bad thing.

I'm not going to go through all of Facebook, YouTube, and other social media sites but I'm sure Alex Jones and others had plenty to say when it comes to fighting or taking up arms if certain situations arose. Not to mention, Trump's own, "2nd Amendment people," is not a call for a silent protest.

And, just today...Trump White House dogs... this is advocating his own type of violence.

Edited by Challenge Everything
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11 minutes ago, Bucsfan5493 said:

Disagreed, I think it’s relevant. The main focus of the protest is to bring attention to police brutality and that the police force needs to be revamped. Yes, a lot of the attention is on the fact that blacks are disproportionately the victims of police brutality, but at the end of the day everyone is looking for change within the police force. We want cops disciplined when they abuse their power (not just for murdering someone), we want cops to go through reformed training that teaches them to not use force or escalate situations, we want rigorous background checks that doesn’t allow cops who have a violent past or have extremist views to get through the system, we want cops to hold each other accountable and change the mentality within the police force. These are the things that need to happen if we want to see true change in regards to police brutality.

If you were to take a poll of the protestors and ask them, “are you protesting against police treatment of blacks, or police brutality in general against everyone?” I don’t think a whole lot of them would choose door #2. 

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2 minutes ago, HellToupee said:

Did you miss him blaming white/black/browns cops and their cop culture. 

Yes. I turned it off when he blamed the media. That was enough to dismiss the rest. 

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2 minutes ago, shader said:

Is this shtick? Unless I’ve missed something, reform is exactly what they seem to want.  

Protesters yes. Rioters no.

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

If you were to take a poll of the protestors and ask them, “are you protesting against police treatment of blacks, or police brutality in general against everyone?” I don’t think a whole lot of them would choose door #2. 

Yes, you are pointing out a major flaw and why they will be less successful.  I mean, why exclude 70% of the population from your cause??

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7 minutes ago, mcintyre1 said:

I'm honestly just worn out at this point, been running on 3-4 hours of sleep for the last 4 days, so I'm going to try to stay away for a bit for my own mental health, but I do want to say something this morning.

It is interesting to see some higher level semi-confirmation from Walz and the mayors that there are outside agitators involved in a lot of this. It is something that I began to suspect from watching livestreams last night -- small groups of unidentifiable white men systematically moving from building to building, breaking through the plywood lighting fires and yelling to get out and moving on. They were frequently confronted by people of color demanding to know why they were setting their community on fire, but would always just run on to the next area.

It certainly could be anarchists or other more radical left wing agitators -- we do have those types up here. But, to be frank, I'm socially adjacent to some people in that community. I would call several of them good friends. I have heard no calls for anything like this, no relishing the burning of our city. 

However, I'm becoming more and more concerned that it might be something a lot more nefarious, and with potential to be a much bigger problem for our country. I've seen some other people mention it, but there's a growing movement online to organize and kick off a second Civil War. Bellingcat has a very long, excellent article detailing what these groups are and how they proliferate (it isn't just right wing militia types, though they are heavily represented). Near the end, there's some picture and text evidence from one of these "Boogaloo" groups showing that they are in Minneapolis and attempting to make this happen. 

I'd also remind everyone that a white supremacist from Bloomington and his buddies were sentenced in 2017 for shooting protesters at the 4th Precinct BLM encampment for Jamar Clark in 2015. So we do have some unfortunate recent history on exactly this kind of thing. 

Walz has said that they have received intelligence from Federal authorities about white supremacists operating in the area, and also said that the identities of those arrested would be made public. I'll be interested to see that information when it is available.

It has to be considered a possibility. I find it interesting that people on both sides of the political spectrum seem to think this might be happening. There was a video that a young black guy posted last night where he showed a big pallet of bricks in the middle of Dallas.  He was asking where it came from?

Trump is also tweeting about it

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Just now, timschochet said:

If you were to take a poll of the protestors and ask them, “are you protesting against police treatment of blacks, or police brutality in general against everyone?” I don’t think a whole lot of them would choose door #2. 

I’m sure you’re right given these protests are around the most recent case of Floyd and the fact that blacks are disproportionately effected by it, but I also think the majority of protestors would agree that police brutality must be addressed for all victims.

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17 minutes ago, timschochet said:

He’s wrong. And this blaming the news media is irrational and incredibly dangerous to a civilized society. 

How is he wrong?   I think this man hit the nail on the head but it is a conversation you are not comfortable having.

The media never covers black cops killing blacks, white cops killing whites.  Black cops beating blacks, white cops beating whites. If they do it is a little blurb where races are not mentioned.

Do you notice the races are only mentioned when a white cop shoots a black person?  Why would that be?  To promote racial harmony?

 

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4 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

Protesters yes. Rioters no.

I’d grant you that any anarchists that slipped in were probably only there to destroy.  But there seem to be plenty others that want reform and change.

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2 minutes ago, djmich said:

Yes, you are pointing out a major flaw and why they will be less successful.  I mean, why exclude 70% of the population from your cause??

Because blacks are the ones being subjected to racism. And I’m not excluded from their cause. Just because I’m not a victim of racism doesn’t mean I have no urge to fight it. 

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1 minute ago, Summer Wheat said:

How is he wrong?   I think this man hit the nail on the head but it is a conversation you are not comfortable having.

The media never covers black cops killing blacks, white cops killing whites.  Black cops beating blacks, white cops beating whites. If they do it is a little blurb where races are not mentioned.

Do you notice the races are only mentioned when a white cop shoots a black person?  Why would that be?  To promote racial harmony?

 

I’m not uncomfortable at all about the conversation. But it’s wrong. 

The reason that black cops killing blacks and white cops killing whites and black cops killing whites are rarely covered is because they’re not part of the systemic racism that exists in this country. The media didn’t create that racism nor do they hype it up. They report it, and the anguish and anger that follows, because it exists. 

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3 minutes ago, shader said:

I’d grant you that any anarchists that slipped in were probably only there to destroy.  But there seem to be plenty others that want reform and change.

I'm operating on the idea we've made a general distinction between the two in this discussion - like the governor and mayors have.

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3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Because blacks are the ones being subjected to racism. And I’m not excluded from their cause. Just because I’m not a victim of racism doesn’t mean I have no urge to fight it. 

Everyone suffers from poor policing.  I know it doesn’t count to you, but the video linked earlier of the white man killed was worse than Floyd.  They mocked him as he died.  Thats wrong whatever color you are.

At end of day if you want to win a fight be smart about it, not being inclusive of a huge part of the population is not smart.  It’s how you lose, but it all does make for better headlines on CNN.

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There seems to be a feeling among some people here that if the media didn’t report these type of stories (white cops mistreating or killing blacks) all would be good. There would be no protests, no riots, no outrage. This is pure fantasy, and it’s ignorant of 150 years of American history. 

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11 minutes ago, djmich said:

Yes, you are pointing out a major flaw and why they will be less successful.  I mean, why exclude 70% of the population from your cause??

Jesus. You've heard of the Civil Rights Movement of the 60s, right?

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Just now, djmich said:

Everyone suffers from poor policing.  I know it doesn’t count to you, but the video linked earlier of the white man killed was worse than Floyd.  They mocked him as he died.  Thats wrong whatever color you are.

At end of day if you want to win a fight be smart about it, not being inclusive of a huge part of the population is not smart.  It’s how you lose, but it all does make for better headlines on CNN.

We don’t not have a general problem of police mistreatment in this country. As a general rule while people are treated great by police. When I am stopped by a policeman I feel totally safe. I have no fear of being shot. I don’t have to give my kids “the talk”. It’s minorities who have something to fear, not the general population. 

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21 minutes ago, mcintyre1 said:

I'm honestly just worn out at this point, been running on 3-4 hours of sleep for the last 4 days, so I'm going to try to stay away for a bit for my own mental health, but I do want to say something this morning.

It is interesting to see some higher level semi-confirmation from Walz and the mayors that there are outside agitators involved in a lot of this. It is something that I began to suspect from watching livestreams last night -- small groups of unidentifiable white men systematically moving from building to building, breaking through the plywood lighting fires and yelling to get out and moving on. They were frequently confronted by people of color demanding to know why they were setting their community on fire, but would always just run on to the next area.

It certainly could be anarchists or other more radical left wing agitators -- we do have those types up here. But, to be frank, I'm socially adjacent to some people in that community. I would call several of them good friends. I have heard no calls for anything like this, no relishing the burning of our city. 

However, I'm becoming more and more concerned that it might be something a lot more nefarious, and with potential to be a much bigger problem for our country. I've seen some other people mention it, but there's a growing movement online to organize and kick off a second Civil War. Bellingcat has a very long, excellent article detailing what these groups are and how they proliferate (it isn't just right wing militia types, though they are heavily represented). Near the end, there's some picture and text evidence from one of these "Boogaloo" groups showing that they are in Minneapolis and attempting to make this happen. 

I'd also remind everyone that a white supremacist from Bloomington and his buddies were sentenced in 2017 for shooting protesters at the 4th Precinct BLM encampment for Jamar Clark in 2015. So we do have some unfortunate recent history on exactly this kind of thing. 

Walz has said that they have received intelligence from Federal authorities about white supremacists operating in the area, and also said that the identities of those arrested would be made public. I'll be interested to see that information when it is available.

I'm not a social media guy, have a few sports related boards I visit and that's pretty much it, but that Bellingcat link you shared.   I'm speechless, had no idea.  Don't even know what to say other than thanks for sharing.  

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

We don’t not have a general problem of police mistreatment in this country. As a general rule while people are treated great by police. When I am stopped by a policeman I feel totally safe. I have no fear of being shot. I don’t have to give my kids “the talk”. It’s minorities who have something to fear, not the general population. 

Tell that to the dead dude in the video you dismissed.

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

There seems to be a feeling among some people here that if the media didn’t report these type of stories (white cops mistreating or killing blacks) all would be good. There would be no protests, no riots, no outrage. This is pure fantasy, and it’s ignorant of 150 years of American history. 

It’s not that I don’t think they should be reported, it that I think all egregious police brutality should be reported, regardless of race. 

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Just now, timschochet said:

We don’t not have a general problem of police mistreatment in this country. As a general rule while people are treated great by police. When I am stopped by a policeman I feel totally safe. I have no fear of being shot. I don’t have to give my kids “the talk”. It’s minorities who have something to fear, not the general population. 

We shouldn't have to keep repeating this but some people apparently won't ever get it.

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5 minutes ago, timschochet said:

There seems to be a feeling among some people here that if the media didn’t report these type of stories (white cops mistreating or killing blacks) all would be good. There would be no protests, no riots, no outrage. This is pure fantasy, and it’s ignorant of 150 years of American history. 

This simply isn’t true 

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1 minute ago, Andy Dufresne said:

I'm operating on the idea we've made a general distinction between the two in this discussion - like the governor and mayors have.

There are a lot more than two groups here.  It would be disingenuous to say that there aren’t people there to destroy.  
 

It’s also disingenuous to say that many of the angry people don’t want reform. 
 

But then I’m not them, and I probably shouldn’t speak for what they want.  

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3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

We don’t not have a general problem of police mistreatment in this country. As a general rule while people are treated great by police. When I am stopped by a policeman I feel totally safe. I have no fear of being shot. I don’t have to give my kids “the talk”. It’s minorities who have something to fear, not the general population. 

As a parent I taught my kids to always keep their hands in sight in the wheel and yes sir no sir . Don’t argue . Sorry but there are too many people that love power 

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6 minutes ago, timschochet said:

We don’t not have a general problem of police mistreatment in this country. As a general rule while people are treated great by police. When I am stopped by a policeman I feel totally safe. I have no fear of being shot. I don’t have to give my kids “the talk”. It’s minorities who have something to fear, not the general population. 

Yes we do, just because you have privilege and never experienced it doesn't mean it's not there. 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

That 80% were out of state. 

The protests were nationwide.  I don’t get the out of state thing and why it matters.

I tend to think it’s political posturing. “Our City is great we would never do this, it’s all those people from other cities and states coming here”

I don’t buy it.  But again, even if it’s true, a lot of it is just people flocking to an area where something bad happened that angered them.  

Edited by shader
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12 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I’m not uncomfortable at all about the conversation. But it’s wrong. 

The reason that black cops killing blacks and white cops killing whites and black cops killing whites are rarely covered is because they’re not part of the systemic racism that exists in this country. The media didn’t create that racism nor do they hype it up. They report it, and the anguish and anger that follows, because it exists. 

So there is a justified police shooting and the story starts or headlines read "White cop shoots black man"  then goes on to tell the story.  That is good reporting? If there is a justified shooting why do we need to know the races of the shooter or the person shot?

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Just now, giantcookie said:

Yes we do, just because you have privilege and never experienced it doesn't mean it's not there. 

I do have privilege. I have white privilege. 

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