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Another killing at the hands of the Police (10 Viewers)

Listening to Boston Mayor Marty Walsh it sounds like the candy store will be open again tonight . Seems like no plan 

 
Stealthycat said:
lets be honest

the riots/looting will not stop until the people who do it choose to NOT do it

if 100% of police brutality stops, they'll just use another spark to ignite their actions - that's the truth 
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I don't believe the looters and rioters care much at all about Floyd.  They just see an opportunity to steal things.

Exhibit A

 
mrip541 said:
https://medium.com/@BarackObama/how-to-make-this-moment-the-turning-point-for-real-change-9fa209806067
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So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. If we want our criminal justice system, and American society at large, to operate on a higher ethical code, then we have to model that code ourselves.
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Well said.

The whole article is excellent.

As millions of people across the country take to the streets and raise their voices in response to the killing of George Floyd and the ongoing problem of unequal justice, many people have reached out asking how we can sustain momentum to bring about real change.

Ultimately, it’s going to be up to a new generation of activists to shape strategies that best fit the times. But I believe there are some basic lessons to draw from past efforts that are worth remembering.

First, the waves of protests across the country represent a genuine and legitimate frustration over a decades-long failure to reform police practices and the broader criminal justice system in the United States. The overwhelming majority of participants have been peaceful, courageous, responsible, and inspiring. They deserve our respect and support, not condemnation — something that police in cities like Camden and Flint have commendably understood.

On the other hand, the small minority of folks who’ve resorted to violence in various forms, whether out of genuine anger or mere opportunism, are putting innocent people at risk, compounding the destruction of neighborhoods that are often already short on services and investment and detracting from the larger cause. I saw an elderly black woman being interviewed today in tears because the only grocery store in her neighborhood had been trashed. If history is any guide, that store may take years to come back. So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. If we want our criminal justice system, and American society at large, to operate on a higher ethical code, then we have to model that code ourselves.

Second, I’ve heard some suggest that the recurrent problem of racial bias in our criminal justice system proves that only protests and direct action can bring about change, and that voting and participation in electoral politics is a waste of time. I couldn’t disagree more. The point of protest is to raise public awareness, to put a spotlight on injustice, and to make the powers that be uncomfortable; in fact, throughout American history, it’s often only been in response to protests and civil disobedience that the political system has even paid attention to marginalized communities. But eventually, aspirations have to be translated into specific laws and institutional practices — and in a democracy, that only happens when we elect government officials who are responsive to our demands.

Moreover, it’s important for us to understand which levels of government have the biggest impact on our criminal justice system and police practices. When we think about politics, a lot of us focus only on the presidency and the federal government. And yes, we should be fighting to make sure that we have a president, a Congress, a U.S. Justice Department, and a federal judiciary that actually recognize the ongoing, corrosive role that racism plays in our society and want to do something about it. But the elected officials who matter most in reforming police departments and the criminal justice system work at the state and local levels.

It’s mayors and county executives that appoint most police chiefs and negotiate collective bargaining agreements with police unions. It’s district attorneys and state’s attorneys that decide whether or not to investigate and ultimately charge those involved in police misconduct. Those are all elected positions. In some places, police review boards with the power to monitor police conduct are elected as well. Unfortunately, voter turnout in these local races is usually pitifully low, especially among young people — which makes no sense given the direct impact these offices have on social justice issues, not to mention the fact that who wins and who loses those seats is often determined by just a few thousand, or even a few hundred, votes.

So the bottom line is this: if we want to bring about real change, then the choice isn’t between protest and politics. We have to do both. We have to mobilize to raise awareness, and we have to organize and cast our ballots to make sure that we elect candidates who will act on reform.

Finally, the more specific we can make demands for criminal justice and police reform, the harder it will be for elected officials to just offer lip service to the cause and then fall back into business as usual once protests have gone away. The content of that reform agenda will be different for various communities. A big city may need one set of reforms; a rural community may need another. Some agencies will require wholesale rehabilitation; others should make minor improvements. Every law enforcement agency should have clear policies, including an independent body that conducts investigations of alleged misconduct. Tailoring reforms for each community will require local activists and organizations to do their research and educate fellow citizens in their community on what strategies work best.

But as a starting point, here’s a report and toolkit developed by the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights and based on the work of the Task Force on 21st Century Policing that I formed when I was in the White House. And if you’re interested in taking concrete action, we’ve also created a dedicated site at the Obama Foundation to aggregate and direct you to useful resources and organizations who’ve been fighting the good fight at the local and national levels for years.

I recognize that these past few months have been hard and dispiriting — that the fear, sorrow, uncertainty, and hardship of a pandemic have been compounded by tragic reminders that prejudice and inequality still shape so much of American life. But watching the heightened activism of young people in recent weeks, of every race and every station, makes me hopeful. If, going forward, we can channel our justifiable anger into peaceful, sustained, and effective action, then this moment can be a real turning point in our nation’s long journey to live up to our highest ideals.

Let’s get to work.
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This is important part of Obama's letter that people need to understand.  People can address this stuff with their police departments locally with their votes.  Demand changes in your own county!

"It’s mayors and county executives that appoint most police chiefs and negotiate collective bargaining agreements with police unions. It’s district attorneys and state’s attorneys that decide whether or not to investigate and ultimately charge those involved in police misconduct. Those are all elected positions. In some places, police review boards with the power to monitor police conduct are elected as well. Unfortunately, voter turnout in these local races is usually pitifully low"

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
This is important part of Obama's letter that people need to understand.  People can address this stuff with their police departments locally with their votes.  Demand changes in your own county!

"It’s mayors and county executives that appoint most police chiefs and negotiate collective bargaining agreements with police unions. It’s district attorneys and state’s attorneys that decide whether or not to investigate and ultimately charge those involved in police misconduct. Those are all elected positions. In some places, police review boards with the power to monitor police conduct are elected as well. Unfortunately, voter turnout in these local races is usually pitifully low"
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I danced around it a couple days ago but since he's brought it up - all those positions are held by democrats here in Minneapolis. 

I truly wonder how he feels about that.

 
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sho nuff said:
lets work on the bolded and concentrate on that then...
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you don't get it - next it will be about something else, some other problem, some other issue ... these people aren't looking for solutions, they're looking to riot/loot/steal and commit violence

they're choosing to do this - choice, personal responsibility just like the police officer that chooses to do the things that one did

they're not that much different

 
Kal El said:
Fact: this round of protests was started by police brutality on a person of color.

true, because people of others colors being victims of police doesn't matter much and doesn't result in rioting/looting. why ?

Fact: the protests started out peaceful, but escalation from either bad cops or civilian troublemakers have touched things off further.

true - why isn't all those violent people committing criminal acts arrested?

Fact: during this round of protests, police have been observed kicking old people on canes down to ground, pepper spraying peaceful protesters, shooting rubber bullets into crowds and at people on balconies on private homes. These same police look as though they're gearing up for an actual honest to God battle, which is itself a huge part of what's wrong.

true - you'd better be really careful right now "protesting" and going into the streets - that is YOUR choice and if you do it? you'd better be ready for consequences and when police are being attacked, they're going to respond and when crowds riot/loot they have to be stopped. 
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mrip541 said:
Perhaps we should instead be focusing on changing the social and economic conditions that lead people to do this kind of thing. Just a thought.
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in the next 6 months, what developing group is going to want to pour millions into the neighborhoods that are being looted/destroyed?

how many businesses are gone now? how many are unemployed because of the destruction?

the economic impact is great - they're (looters/rioters) destroying the very fabric that can reverse the inner city situations ...... they're contributing to their own situation that they're mad about

 
Stealthycat said:
you don't get it - next it will be about something else, some other problem, some other issue ... these people aren't looking for solutions, they're looking to riot/loot/steal and commit violence

they're choosing to do this - choice, personal responsibility just like the police officer that chooses to do the things that one did

they're not that much different
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Cool if it will always be something...then we deal with those things as they come.  But to just say...they will riot anyway so oh well is not acceptable.   I understand that change in many levels of police and government is needed.  Lets fix that...

 
bigbottom said:
Over 400 have been arrested during demonstrations in Houston where I live.
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Do you any idea how many of these folks are being arrested for what we would consider "rioting" offenses (no idea what the right legal term is) vs. standard civil disobedience?  Just curious.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Do you any idea how many of these folks are being arrested for what we would consider "rioting" offenses (no idea what the right legal term is) vs. standard civil disobedience?  Just curious.
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I don’t know that they’ve reported the breakdown. But the following entry reported detail of the couple arrests from Sunday night:

JUNE 1 12:15 P.M. —  Houston Police Chief Art Acevedo said Monday morning that on Saturday night there were 275 total arrests and Friday night there were 137 total arrests during the weekend protests. He added that on Sunday night, there were two arrests related to the demonstrations. One was for criminal mischief and one for aggravated assault on a peace officer.

 
GoBirds said:
Isn’t he the guy the ran on “change”....then nothing changed after 8 years except the wealth gap was greater and health insurance was unaffordable?
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I've been thinking about this comment and I can't conclude anything but the following:

Obama ran on change and even if he had 51% of the people ready to change (whatever that means), it leaves 49% of the people that are/were okay with the status quo, or afraid of affect change will have for them. If Obama had 99% of the people ready to do what needed to be done, we wouldn't be here right now, imo. But, how much was Obama stymied? What was fought against? What was persuaded to not change?

Let's look at a few "changes" that were fought tooth-and-nail to not change during Obama's years:

- Health Care... from lobbyists to insurance to big pharma to whomever, change was not welcomed. This isn't Obama's failure, rather it should be asked of those that didn't want change, why they didn't want things different. We can speculate as to why but Obama is not Barbara Eden.

- Gay Marriage... start and end by the commentary from FOX News if you want to find out why this was fought for tooth-and-nail. Has this change really hurt anybody? Has this change dramatically changed the scope of what America is? I don't see it.

- Federal Judges... look no further than the Senate for this one. Hell, there wasn't even a fight as the rules were not followed. Call it politics or whatever but, again, Obama is not Barbara Eden and can not appoint judges with a snap of the finger.

- Supreme Court... again, look no further than the Senate... rather one person, if you so desire. The rule-of-law was not followed here. Commentary was bastardized every day with projection after projection and hyperbole after hyperbole. This isn't even a "change" but how hard did people scratch and claw for speculative reasons here?

People could probably bring up a few more things Obama, if he was Barbara Eden, could have changed, but that is not how our government works nor should it be how government works. And, this, is where, I think, much of this divide has occurred. People point to Obama and change but there are plenty of people in this country who would rather see this burn down than to have their lives "change" just a little bit.

Bring in Trump. He is breaking precedent after precedent, rule after rule, tradition after tradition, in the name of what? Trump is scapegoating anyone and everyone in the name of, "if this happens, there goes your freedom... there goes your second amendment... there goes your health care... whatever." And, luckily, for now, there is about 30% of the country ready and willing to follow him because "change" is something they appear to be afraid of.

Here is why people, for some reason see Trump as strong. Obama did what he could within the confines of the government playbook. Trump is throwing out the playbook and burning it in hopes people follow him with little regard to the rules that were set up by the very people that are so often touted, revered, and put on a pedestal... those of the Founding Fathers and the Constitution. But, when the ashes clear, hopefully soon, people will realize that the playbook is as strong as it ever was but the players involved are the cancer that needs to go.

 
sho nuff said:
Cool if it will always be something...then we deal with those things as they come.  But to just say...they will riot anyway so oh well is not acceptable.   I understand that change in many levels of police and government is needed.  Lets fix that...
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no, its NOT acceptable so DEAL WITH THEM - they are the problem today, not protesters

 
Stealthycat said:
no, its NOT acceptable so DEAL WITH THEM - they are the problem today, not protesters
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No..racial injustice is still the problem today, it was yesterday and the day before and the week before and months and years before.  It will continue to be the problem until something changes.

 
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sho nuff said:
Ni...racial injustice is still the problem today, it was yesterday and the day before and the week before and months and years before.  It will continue to be the problem until something changes.
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We at least know what the problem is. It's police brutality.

 
Kal El said:
The common denominator in these protests is the unwillingness of the police to retrain themselves.
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Can you retrain a racist though?  I don't think anything is going to change until police departments can actually fire the bad cops.  Chauvin had what 18 complaints against him with barely a slap on the wrist.  Police unions have too much power.  Being able to discipline and root out the bad seeds is what really needs to happen along with massive retraining.

 
Pipes said:
Can you retrain a racist though?  I don't think anything is going to change until police departments can actually fire the bad cops.  Chauvin had what 18 complaints against him with barely a slap on the wrist.  Police unions have too much power.  Being able to discipline and root out the bad seeds is what really needs to happen along with massive retraining.
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That's part of what has to happen as well. This whole "defend/protect them right or wrong" attitude has to stop. It's gotten better people killed already.

 
bigbottom said:
I don’t know that they’ve reported the breakdown. But the following entry reported detail of the couple arrests from Sunday night:

JUNE 1 12:15 P.M. —  Houston Police Chief Art Acevedo said Monday morning that on Saturday night there were 275 total arrests and Friday night there were 137 total arrests during the weekend protests. He added that on Sunday night, there were two arrests related to the demonstrations. One was for criminal mischief and one for aggravated assault on a peace officer.
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Interesting. Was there a curfew instituted in Houston Sunday night or some other action that contributed to the difference?

There's a huge difference between protesting and rioting which it seems like mostly everyone acknowledges. Now's the time to really separate those two things out, and focus on eliminating the destruction. That's BS already, and it seems like there's a lot of agreement on that. Let's start there if we all want to agree on certain truths.

 
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