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Another killing at the hands of the Police (7 Viewers)

Ezra Klein @ezraklein

So many want to force a false choice: do you support the rioters or the cops? But out-of-control police and rioters are fundamentally on the same side: They are both threats to social stability. They both destroy lives and cities. They feed off each other.

And here's the good news: If there was less police brutality, there would be less rioting. If a man hadn't been murdered, slowly, on camera, by police, our cities wouldn't be in flames.

Rioters aren’t accountable. You can’t call up their union. They’re not under anyone's control. People using protest as cover for chaos are a terribly hard problem to solve. But the police are supposed to be accountable. Police brutality is a problem we should be able to solve.
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I get the intent but its stuff like this why we are doomed.

Rioters aren't accountable?  If you dont uphold the law, sure.

If there were less police brutality, there would be less rioting.  How much less police brutality?  Are we less than 5yrs ago...does anyone know or care?  Whats the goal.  This is a setup where sadly success (perfection) is an impossibility.

Its a well intended thought written by someone with a simplistic view to how our planet can be wonderful.

 
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From a friend:

During the last few days, there is one quote I keep finding myself going back to, by Martin Luther King Jr.: "A riot is the language of the unheard". 

Nobody likes riots. There has never been a single person who woke up and decided it was their fanciful whim that they riot. There has, obviously, never been a single person who woke up and hoped to be rioted against. Riots are dangerous (especially now when merely being outside around others is dangerous), they risk losing support for the underlying cause, and they require an immense investment of time and energy for even the smallest output. Nobody comes to rioting as anything other than their last resort. When rioting is called the language of the unheard, it means exactly that: A riot is the final attempt by people who have tried every other avenue to tell people they matter and were ignored. 

If you don't want this riot, good. Neither do I. Neither do the people rioting. It would end tomorrow if society took the dignity of black people seriously. It would end tomorrow if society took the lives of black people seriously.

This riot is not only about one death. It is not even only about racially-based police brutality. It is about a country that has, since before it was even a country, systematically committed atrocities against black people. Every major city in America could be burned to the ground by these rioters and it would still pale before that which society has done to the black community even within the past century and would be practically invisible measured against the full list of offenses.

Compared to these crimes against humanity, the rioters' demands and methods are positively restrained. In response to all that was stolen from them, they ask only for the dignity to live. In response to all the murder, enslavement, oppression, and deliberate economic devastation perpetuated on them for centuries, they have responded with only moderate property damage over a few days time. You may not like that property damage is occurring. I imagine, however, the rioters like violent systemic racism even less. Why don't you? 

Let's all work together to end these riots by pushing for those responsible to be brought to justice. Let's hold society accountable.
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Zow said:
Well, maybe, but we would very likely have a much better idea if the on person body cameras weren't off... 
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Are police supposed to turn on cameras before reacting to someone shooting at them?  Halt!!  Wait a second, ok, now go.

 
jm192 said:
Absolute $hit show in Louisville.  Police murdered a man.  It came to light that the body cameras were turned off during the incident.  Police chief has been fired.  People are calling for the Mayor to resign. 

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2020/06/01/who-david-mcatee-louisville-barbecue-store-owner-killed-police/5308229002/
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https://twitter.com/robferdman/status/1267555994709655553

Not one of the body cameras were turned on.  Not one.  Interviews with eyewitnesses claim that no one in the group where David McAtee was present fired at officers, and disputed the police version of events.

 
djmich said:
I get the intent but its stuff like this why we are doomed.

Rioters aren't accountable?  If you dont uphold the law, sure.

If there were less police brutality, there would be less rioting.  How much less police brutality?  Are we less than 5yrs ago...does anyone know or care?  Whats the goal.  This is a setup where sadly success (perfection) is an impossibility.

Its a well intended thought written by someone with a simplistic view to how our planet can be wonderful.
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None?

 
JohnnyU said:
Are police supposed to turn on cameras before reacting to someone shooting at them?  Halt!!  Wait a second, ok, now go.
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Assuming they're using the Axon model (which most law enforcement agencies use to my knowledge), the camera connects to an online storage database. So, it's not like there's a shortage of "tape" or whatever. There is also a built-in 30 second playback so an officer could theoretically turn it on after an incident has started (although I'd agree if it was a total surprise I'd agree an officer shouldn't be expected to take from from defending himself or herself to turn the video on - although it takes less than a second). 

I have conducted interviews and reviewed several agencies' policy manuals on the on person body cameras. Pursuant to that attained knowledge, I find it to be at least facially unreasonable for officers responding to a riot to have their cameras not turned on. Should these particular officers had their cameras on early but only off for this incident I'd be even more skeptical. 

I have experienced times where an on person camera did genuinely seem to malfunction through no fault or intent of the officer. Additionally, pursuant to agencies' policies, some types of LEOs don't have to wear them because they're operating in a supervisory role. Further, some detectives aren't required to wear them - but they aren't the ones inserting themselves into possible tensious situations. 

 
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djmich said:
I get the intent but its stuff like this why we are doomed.

Rioters aren't accountable?  If you dont uphold the law, sure.

If there were less police brutality, there would be less rioting.  How much less police brutality?  Are we less than 5yrs ago...does anyone know or care?  Whats the goal.  This is a setup where sadly success (perfection) is an impossibility.

Its a well intended thought written by someone with a simplistic view to how our planet can be wonderful.
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He's not saying they aren't legally accountable for their actions after the fact.  He means you can't get the rioters in the room ahead of time and do how-to-riot-better training the way you can insist people paid with public dollars and sworn to uphold the law get training to be better cops.

And, based on 30 years of history, it seems like the people you can actually influence ahead of time are the ones initiating events that lead to rioting and looting.

Anyone who's serious about stopping all this needs to get on board the better policing train.  It's the place we can actually DO something.

 
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Zow said:
Whoa. Even under my state's incredibly broad disorderly conduct statute, I cannot see any of the behavior on that video amounting to such. WTF. 
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They had a permit to be there until 12pm. It was now 3pm. They had been told repeatedly to move along. That guy was convincing people to stay in defiance.

 
Dinsy Ejotuz said:
He's not saying they aren't legally accountable for their actions after the fact.  He means you can't get the rioters in the room ahead of time and do how-to-riot-better training the way you can insist people paid with public dollars and sworn to uphold the law get better training.

And, again, based on 30 years of history, it seems like the people you can actually influence ahead of time are the ones initiating events that lead to rioting and looting.

Anyone who's serious about stopping all this needs to get on board the better policing train.  It's the place we can actually DO something.
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I'm with you Dinsy, we can do better and must.

One of the places we need to do better is in the fact based review of the data and setting measurable targets for improvement.  Its business/operations 101 but completely missing from the conversation.  If we implement improvements and do not measure, with an understanding that 100% success is not something that will be achieved, then we will be wasting our time, peoples lives and burning stuff down for a long time.

Does anyone here know whether or not policing has improved over the past 5yrs, 10rys, 15yrs.  As measured by reduced non warranted fatalities.  Does that matter?

 
jm192 said:
Absolute $hit show in Louisville.  Police murdered a man.  It came to light that the body cameras were turned off during the incident.  Police chief has been fired.  People are calling for the Mayor to resign. 

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2020/06/01/who-david-mcatee-louisville-barbecue-store-owner-killed-police/5308229002/
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Seattle police were instructed to turn off their body cameras when these protests started.  Most of them have also covered their badge numbers and names with black tape.

 
-fish- said:
Seattle police were instructed to turn off their body cameras when these protests started.  Most of them have also covered their badge numbers and names with black tape.
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Again...this is the reason for protest...its not anti cop...its anti cop tactics.

 
jm192 said:
Absolute $hit show in Louisville.  Police murdered a man.  It came to light that the body cameras were turned off during the incident.  Police chief has been fired.  People are calling for the Mayor to resign. 

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2020/06/01/who-david-mcatee-louisville-barbecue-store-owner-killed-police/5308229002/
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This part is at least a step in the right direction.  No reason to not hold people accountable for this horse####.

 
parasaurolophus said:
They had a permit to be there until 12pm. It was now 3pm. They had been told repeatedly to move along. That guy was convincing people to stay in defiance.
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Okay. As I stated I am/was going off of what was seen in the visible. Whether there's some applicable loitering or tresspass statute I do not know. 

 
Zow said:
Well, maybe, but we would very likely have a much better idea if the on person body cameras weren't off... 
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If I was an officer who was forced to kill a man in self defense, I would want video evidence to document that.  How unfortunate for the police that their body cameras malfunction at the worst moments.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
The traffic.  I'm all for criminal justice reform, and unlike anybody who voted D or R in 2016, the party I voted for actually takes that issue seriously.  So yeah, I don't need to have my awareness raised on this one.
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I have no doubt that you are aware.  You are a smart, well informed person.  One of my favorite all-time posters.

But yeah, your answer surprises me.  It really isn't about making you "aware."  It's about making everyone aware, and frankly inconveniencing everyone enough that this issue gets addressed.  Basically, until we "solve" this issue, if people aren't bothered by the lack of progress......more than they are bothered by the inconvenience of bad traffic......well, that's part of the problem IMO.  Until everyone collectively puts pressure on the entire system to implement change....nothing will happen.

Thanks for the reply.   Keep writing good stuff, I'll keep reading it.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
If I was an officer who was forced to kill a man in self defense, I would want video evidence to document that.  How unfortunate for the police that their body cameras malfunction at the worst moments.
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Yeah in my experience in speaking both formally during witness interviews and informally with officers in my social circles the consensus shared by both the state and the defense is that on person body cameras is almost totally favorable. 

I have some stories I'll post when I have more time. But, in my experience, the on person body cameras generally back up the officer's statements and help resolve cases because the "bad" evidence for a defendant is there. However, there have been few but incredibly important instances where the axon camera proved the officer's misstatements and, in my very first case, an unthinkable act of brutality. 

 
So not only did the independent autopsy rule that Floyd died of asphyxiation, he also did not have pre-existing conditions.

Uff da.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Here's a nice one.  Guy is on a knee, giving a speech, harming absolutely nobody.  Finally a couple of cops decide aw #### it let's just arrest him.

https://twitter.com/sweeeetdee_/status/1267319103167107072
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For those of you not familiar with the area, this is the middle of Marion Square in Charleston. It is about a block from the Mother Emanual church where Dylan Roof, a white supremist, killed nine African Americans during Bible study.

 
Zow said:
What??? Why? 

Body cameras are probably the best form of evidence for the actual truth. 
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Seattle police have been hyperagressive since the WTO riots.   They have a history of excessive force.  Why would they want to help document it?  

 
IvanKaramazov said:
None of them are harming anybody.  They're just kneeling in a public park or university campus by the looks of the it.  Who cares whether they disperse?  They're not harming a soul.
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The flip side to that is there are permits and laws. Plenty of places to legally protest without a permit. What was so strategic to them that they had to have that one spot? They started kneeling because they were told to leave. About 20 minutes later they move on and keep marching unencumbered. One arrest, standoff over.

Also if you watch the long version you will hear one of the protesters say the cops are just mad because "we burned up merchandise" 

If this was day one I might be sympathetic. But stuff was looted and burned last night by what started out as peaceful. 

MKE is doing this same strategy btw. They are all over minor infractions right away encouraging people to just move along. I dont know their exact thought process but if I were in their shoes I would do whatever I could to keep the crowds moving and not gather in large numbers. Just letting people do what they want hasnt worked out well for all the cities that took that lane. 

ETA: after some more reading marion square is exactly where they gathered peacefully two nights prior before hitting the interstate and then starting the real trouble at night. Also there were some arrests right before these guys started kneeling. 

 
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IvanKaramazov said:
None of them are harming anybody.  They're just kneeling in a public park or university campus by the looks of the it.  Who cares whether they disperse?  They're not harming a soul.
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As someone already mentioned but the issue is, people are using the guise of the protests to loot and break the law. So there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Since we apparently can't have one without the other, it really does seem to come down to a simple choice with this at least. Do you allow protests to go on largely without any interference that is likely to result in property damage, rioting and looting?  Or do you break it up and all that entails? 

 
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