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Another killing at the hands of the Police

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18 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

what happened under his leadership, under his administration and presidency is his to own

he had 8 years to deescalate and yet here we are 3 1/2 years later, with maybe worse problems that I've seen in 25 years with the allowed violence/rioting/looting

again, in almost every year, after Obama tensions were worse than before those 8 years  

If Obama would have just banned the internet we could have all gone back to believing the cops were justified when they killed someone just like back in the old days.  

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I’m going to go out on a limb and say anything Obama did regarding “building up a militant police force” or and “law and order” steps he took were deemed not enough by most republicans and too much by progressives.

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1 minute ago, Slapdash said:

Not at all. It was early in the morning when he couldn't sleep. Later, he went to the capitol building. It was a very weird event.

Huh. That IS interesting.

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1 hour ago, jon_mx said:

The cop was arrested and justice is going to be served.  In the later case there were no burning down of businesses, no looting, no violence.  The most violent protests tend to be from the left. 

Maybe. We'll see. 

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Just now, Death Bytes said:

Maybe. We'll see. 

The current level of anger seems as if he was already aquitted.  I am confident justice will be served, and hopefully the other cops involved face some criminal charges too.  

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9 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

Seems like a short memory.  The BLM movement started during the Obama years.  The left were rioting over the same things, but those cases were a lot less clear cut than this one.  And cops were being targered by assassins.  

Assassins who were not BLM....despite some attempts to claim as much.  Lets be clear there.

 

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I wonder if "justice will be served" allows for the possibility (even if it is really, really remote) that we arrive at "Not Guilty".

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4 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

The current level of anger seems as if he was already aquitted.  I am confident justice will be served, and hopefully the other cops involved face some criminal charges too.  

I agree...it seems like that.  IMO, because of years of it happening, because of delays in even arresting him...because of the lies and misinformation as the official account of the situation.

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1 minute ago, Andy Dufresne said:

I wonder if "justice will be served" allows for the possibility (even if it is really, really remote) that we arrive at "Not Guilty".

Right now I don't even want to think of the powder keg that will erupt at such a thing.

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6 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

Right now I don't even want to think of the powder keg that will erupt at such a thing.

Is he still up for just murder in the 3rd degree?  Because that's brutal in itself

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10 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

The current level of anger seems as if he was already aquitted.  I am confident justice will be served, and hopefully the other cops involved face some criminal charges too.  

I am confident they will be pardoned by Donald Trump in a giant "f-u" to his opponents after we evict him from office.  Why should anyone believe that justice will be served under this current administration?  

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Just now, formerfourdigit said:

I am confident they will be pardoned by Donald Trump in a giant "f-u" to his opponents after we evict him from office.  Why should anyone believe that justice will be served under this current administration?  

oooofff..i didn't even consider that angle.  

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8 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

Right now I don't even want to think of the powder keg that will erupt at such a thing.

Right? Even if the jury wants to say not guilty you publicly declare him guilty anyway then whisk him off to a new life in "witness" protection.

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14 minutes ago, Slapdash said:

Not at all. It was early in the morning when he couldn't sleep. Later, he went to the capitol building. It was a very weird event.

 

13 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

Huh. That IS interesting.

I decided to look it up, and it really is interesting

Quote

Nixon had finished a press conference at 10 p.m. on May 8, in which he had been questioned about his decision to expand American operations in Cambodia as part of the Vietnam War. Nixon then made 20 telephone calls to various people including Billy Graham and Thomas E. Dewey and the NBC reporter Nancy Dickerson.[1] He then slept from 2:15 a.m. until around 4 a.m.[2]

Nixon awoke after 4 a.m. and put on a recording of Eugene Ormandy conducting Rachmaninoff at a loud volume in the Lincoln Sitting Room. This awoke his valet Manolo Sanchez. Looking at the gathering of people on the National Mall, Nixon asked Sanchez if he had ever visited the memorial at night and then told him to get dressed after Sanchez answered in the negative.[2]

Nixon, Sanchez, the senior White House doctor Walter Robert Tkach and Secret Service agents then drove to the memorial in a presidential limousine, with Nixon later recalling that he had "never seen the Secret Service quite so petrified with apprehension". Upon arrival Nixon and Sanchez walked up the steps to the statue of the seated Lincoln with Nixon pointing out the carved inscriptions of Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address and his Gettysburg Address.[2] White House Deputy for Domestic Affairs Egil Krogh was also present.[3]

Some students had recognised Nixon by now and, although surprised by his advent, walked up to him and shook his hand. Nixon said that the students "were not unfriendly" to him, but "seemed somewhat overawed". Nixon learnt that several of them attended Syracuse University, and spoke of the university's football team. Commenting later to journalists, the Syracuse University students felt that "most of what he was saying was absurd ... Here we had come from a university that's completely uptight, on strike, and when we told him where we were from, he talked about the football team."[2]

On the Vietnam War, Nixon told the students:

I hope that [your] hatred of the war, which I could well understand, would not turn into a bitter hatred of our whole system, our country and everything that it stood for. I said that I know probably most of you think I'm an SOB. But I want you to know that I understand just how you feel.

Nixon obviously had a lot of faults, but he was excellent at politics. I used to be a newspaper reporter and I would get emails from time to time from irate readers. I can't tell you how many times I simply responded with a "I appreciate your response and thank you for reading," and how I would then get a reply saying, "I never expected you to respond," followed by a civil exchange. Trump doesn't have to go stand among protestors, which is obviously dangerous. But he hasn't made *any* attempt to talk to them as people. He seems to have no interest in that. I'm mainly a lurker here, but I'm familiar with the stances of most of the people in this thread, and some of them grate on me to no end. It's easy for me to scroll past with no interest in what they have to say. But I'm positive that were I to meet some of these same people at a bar, we'd probably joke and have a good time. I can hate your politics without hating you. My issue with Trump is that those things are the same. He has no interest in getting to know his enemies, because then they might not be enemies anymore, and without enemies, he has nothing.

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25 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

The current level of anger seems as if he was already aquitted.  I am confident justice will be served, and hopefully the other cops involved face some criminal charges too. 

I think (my opinion) is that the current level of anger represents "not again!" while there are 3 more cops that are free but should be arrested.

And Thor help us and this country if Chauvin IS acquitted. You think these riots are bad?!

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14 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

Right? Even if the jury wants to say not guilty you publicly declare him guilty anyway then whisk him off to a new life in "witness" protection.

I'm trying to think - with what we saw in the video - what evidence could come to light to make me thing he is not guilty. Kind of at a loss. 

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Just now, whoknew said:

I'm trying to think - with what we saw in the video - what evidence could come to light to make me thing he is not guilty. Kind of at a loss. 

I haven't seen anything that explains how it went from walking him across the street to him on the ground with a knee on his neck.

 

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17 minutes ago, killface said:

Is he still up for just murder in the 3rd degree?  Because that's brutal in itself

Yea - I think you could make a solid case for Murder 2. Especially since everyone in the crowd was yelling to him that he was killing him.

And I think premeditation can be almost instantaneous, right? So if the crowd is yelling that he is killing him and he continues to put his knee into his neck - could you make a case for Murder 1? 

Probably need Zow to address.

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2 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

I haven't seen anything that explains how it went from walking him across the street to him on the ground with a knee on his neck.

 

I don't think that's relevant, though. If Floyd had been killed during the apprehension, then maybe you could make that argument. 

But hard to argue when he has him handcuffed and not resisting for almost 9 minutes.

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1 minute ago, Andy Dufresne said:

I haven't seen anything that explains how it went from walking him across the street to him on the ground with a knee on his neck.

 

To make it even weirder, I've seen a security camera with an angle that appears to show that Floyd was in the back seat of the cruiser at some point before he was killed. When that video came out a couple days ago, some people (like Shaun King) were claiming it showed the officers punching him in the back seat, but to me it wasn't clear exactly what was happening. I'll see if I can dig that video up again.

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37 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

Right now I don't even want to think of the powder keg that will erupt at such a thing.

Given the Rodney King riots didn't start until AFTER the officers were acquitted, it will be more like a nuclear bomb than a powder keg. 

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23 minutes ago, phandango said:

 

I decided to look it up, and it really is interesting

Nixon obviously had a lot of faults, but he was excellent at politics. I used to be a newspaper reporter and I would get emails from time to time from irate readers. I can't tell you how many times I simply responded with a "I appreciate your response and thank you for reading," and how I would then get a reply saying, "I never expected you to respond," followed by a civil exchange. Trump doesn't have to go stand among protestors, which is obviously dangerous. But he hasn't made *any* attempt to talk to them as people. He seems to have no interest in that. I'm mainly a lurker here, but I'm familiar with the stances of most of the people in this thread, and some of them grate on me to no end. It's easy for me to scroll past with no interest in what they have to say. But I'm positive that were I to meet some of these same people at a bar, we'd probably joke and have a good time. I can hate your politics without hating you. My issue with Trump is that those things are the same. He has no interest in getting to know his enemies, because then they might not be enemies anymore, and without enemies, he has nothing.

Good stuff.

Let's get some more posts. TIA

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1 hour ago, Andy Dufresne said:

As a planned & controlled event, sure.

It's something Trump should do - but it wasn't going to happen the other night 

Nixon visits the hippies

It was not a planned and controlled event. Nixon, on an apparent whim, decided to go to the Lincoln Memorial in the pre-dawn hours.  

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1 hour ago, The General said:

What did he do to escalate tension?

he said a bunch of words and nothing positive came from the little he did NOT do - Obama wasn't a uniter. Trump isn't a uniter

it takes a real special person to bridge across the diverse landscape of America, I'd love to see a POTUS soon to do it

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1 hour ago, The Commish said:

You didn't answer his question.  I know that's your shtick, but it's telling.  What we are seeing today in the streets isn't significantly different than what we saw in 1992 with Rodney King.  This has been going on for decades and decades.  Clearly that's something you don't want to acknowledge for whatever reason as you double down on "but Obama" at every opportunity.  

you mean with Reginald Denny ?

we've not had a POTUS unite in a very long time - Clinton might have been the best at it ... Bush's wasn't, Obama wasn't, Trump isn't 

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53 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

Assassins who were not BLM....despite some attempts to claim as much.  Lets be clear there.

 

there were not Republican voters - that much it clear

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

I haven't seen anything that explains how it went from walking him across the street to him on the ground with a knee on his neck.

 

The only thing I heard, which is on the tape, was the office saying to him when he couldn't breath "Will you get in the car peacefully now?"  Or something to that effect, so, it appears that George resisted getting in the car.

Edited by tonydead

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Just now, tonydead said:

The only thing I heard, which is on the tape, was the office saying to him when he couldn't breath "Will you get in the car peacefully now?"  Or something to that effect, so, it appears the George resisted getting in the car.

Floyd was a big man, a felon, committing forgery it appears, maybe resisting ... but the police officer committed a murder, his 3 non-white police buddies watched ... there should be and will be heavy penalties for that 

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3 minutes ago, tonydead said:

The only thing I heard, which is on the tape, was the office saying to him when he couldn't breath "Will you get in the car peacefully now?"  Or something to that effect, so, it appears the George resisted getting in the car.

He said, “then go ahead and get in the car.”

While. He. Was. Kneeling. On. His. Neck.

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1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

what happened under his leadership, under his administration and presidency is his to own

he had 8 years to deescalate and yet here we are 3 1/2 years later, with maybe worse problems that I've seen in 25 years with the allowed violence/rioting/looting

again, in almost every year, after Obama tensions were worse than before those 8 years  

So by your logic if this year is the worst you’ve seen in 25 years that means it’s gotten worse in the last year, or year before or year before, all under Trump.  

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Just now, dkp993 said:

So by your logic if this year is the worst you’ve seen in 25 years that means it’s gotten worse in the last year, or year before or year before, all under Trump.  

the left has been far more violent yes but in the Obama years it grew, the spawning of BLM and ANTIFA and the hatred continued to get worse and worse

yes, under Trump has gotten worse too 

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Really large peaceful protests without any violence or looting seems like a lot to ask for in these times. NYC and LA seem to be ripe for issues again tonight, they have very large crowds going now. Networks all calling it "peaceful so far" (CNN, Fox, MSNBC).

It doesn't look promising based on how the last couple of nights unfolded. Hopefully the earlier curfew plus a change in tactics will help, but it's disconcerting seeing that many protesters out. 

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3 minutes ago, -jb- said:

He said, “then go ahead and get in the car.”

While. He. Was. Kneeling. On. His. Neck.

Thanks.  Right, so the logical conclusion was that he wasn't willing to get in the car.  That's what I took from it too.

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3 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

the left has been far more violent yes but in the Obama years it grew, the spawning of BLM and ANTIFA and the hatred continued to get worse and worse

yes, under Trump has gotten worse too 

https://www.businessinsider.com/extremist-killings-links-right-wing-extremism-report-2019-1?amp
 

https://www.adl.org/news/press-releases/adl-report-right-wing-extremists-killed-38-people-in-2019-far-surpassing-all

https://www.csis.org/ground-combatting-rise-right-wing-terror

https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/s894/BILLS-116s894is.xml

To just claim the left has been more violent ignores many many studies.

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Oh good, now we can have another three-page slap-fight over whether left-wing violence is better or worse than right-wing violence.  These add a lot of value to the forum.

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4 minutes ago, tonydead said:

Thanks.  Right, so the logical conclusion was that he wasn't willing to get in the car.  That's what I took from it too.

No.  The logical conclusion is he can't get in the car with a police officer kneeling on his neck.  

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3 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

99% of the rioters and looters and killing going on right now is being done by conservatives, GOP and Trump voters right ?

you don't believe that, and I don't believe it and everyone knows there aint a MAGA hate wearing guy in any of the looting photos

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9 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

the left has been far more violent yes but in the Obama years it grew, the spawning of BLM and ANTIFA and the hatred continued to get worse and worse

yes, under Trump has gotten worse too 

Sounds like this problem has had nothing to do with who was president, and will continue to grow regardless of who is president. Maybe the issue is bigger than who is president. 

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1 minute ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Oh good, now we can have another three-page slap-fight over whether left-wing violence is better or worse than right-wing violence.  These add a lot of value to the forum.

I agree. Its not of value.  I was merely countering the misinformation posted and backing it up again with multiple links.

Both sets of extremists are awful and bad for this country...no matter where the violence comes from.  I find anyone claiming its all one side is being disingenuous at best.

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Just now, -jb- said:

No.  The logical conclusion is he can't get in the car with a police officer kneeling on his neck.  

That is a given, we all know that.  What led up to him going to the ground?

a) He was resisting getting in the car.

b) The cop was trying to kill him.

I know what the logical answer is, but hey if you think it was B then yeah, go for murder in the 1st.  

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1 minute ago, Stealthycat said:

99% of the rioters and looters and killing going on right now is being done by conservatives, GOP and Trump voters right ?

you don't believe that, and I don't believe it and everyone knows there aint a MAGA hate wearing guy in any of the looting photos

Right?  Umm, no, we don't know.  Which is part of the point .  But i countered the claims you made.  And it wasn’t just a discussion about this but about the years previous.

any attempt to claim its all just the left appears to be completely unsupported by fact.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, tonydead said:

That is a given, we all know that.  What led up to him going to the ground?

a) He was resisting getting in the car.

b) The cop was trying to kill him.

I know what the logical answer is, but hey if you think it was B then yeah, go for murder in the 1st.  

I'm having a difficult time understanding your point. Is it just that the cop should be charged only with Murder 3? That that's the appropriate charge?

I think you could definitely make a murder 2 argument and possibly murder 1 because premeditation can be a really short time period. But I will defer to Zow on that. Or better yet - DW.

Edited by whoknew

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1 hour ago, Andy Dufresne said:

Huh. That IS interesting.

I thought this was much better known. 

Have you ever heard the story about the time Nixon rode with Hunter S Thompson from a campaign event to the airport?  

HST & Nixon ride to airport

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18 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:
1 hour ago, The Commish said:

You didn't answer his question.  I know that's your shtick, but it's telling.  What we are seeing today in the streets isn't significantly different than what we saw in 1992 with Rodney King.  This has been going on for decades and decades.  Clearly that's something you don't want to acknowledge for whatever reason as you double down on "but Obama" at every opportunity.  

you mean with Reginald Denny ?

we've not had a POTUS unite in a very long time - Clinton might have been the best at it ... Bush's wasn't, Obama wasn't, Trump isn't 

No....I mean Rodney King...that's what started the riots.  Denny was a headline because of what happened to him in the riots.  The riots weren't because of what happened to him (Denny).

This second statement is significantly different from your original

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44 minutes ago, whoknew said:

Yea - I think you could make a solid case for Murder 2. Especially since everyone in the crowd was yelling to him that he was killing him.

And I think premeditation can be almost instantaneous, right? So if the crowd is yelling that he is killing him and he continues to put his knee into his neck - could you make a case for Murder 1? 

Probably need Zow to address.

The prosecuters who looked at this did not just rush to judgement and say let's charge him with Murder 3.  They looked at all the evidence and came up with the best charges you will get a conviction on.  DW already weight in.  

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, tonydead said:

That is a given, we all know that.  What led up to him going to the ground?

a) He was resisting getting in the car.

b) The cop was trying to kill him.

I know what the logical answer is, but hey if you think it was B then yeah, go for murder in the 1st.  

 

I actually hadn't stated in any capacity what degree I would "go for."  That said...

 

"The rule of felony murder is a legal doctrine in some common law jurisdictions that broadens the crime of murder: when an offender kills (regardless of intent to kill) in the commission of a dangerous or enumerated crime (called a felony in some jurisdictions), the offender, and also the offender's accomplices or co-conspirators, may be found guilty of murder.

The concept of felony murder originates in the rule of transferred intent, which is older than the limit of legal memory. In its original form, the malicious intent inherent in the commission of any crime, however trivial, was considered to apply to any consequences of that crime, however unintended.

Felony murder is typically the same grade of murder as premeditated murder and carries the same sentence as is used for premeditated murder in the jurisdiction in question."

 

I'm not a lawyer, so I am not clear on whether or not police brutality can be considered a dangerous or enumerated crime.  The main reason I have stayed clear of the topic so far.  I was merely commenting on what you thought the office said during the incident.  I happen to remember it specifically because I was so disgusted when I heard him say it.

Edited by -jb-

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1 minute ago, jon_mx said:

The prosecuters who looked at this did not just rush to judgement and say let's charge him with Murder 3.  They looked at all the evidence and came up with the best charges you will get a conviction on.  DW already weight in.  

Yea the prosecutors can be wrong. Or, as you hinted at, they may be charging for different reasons. DW said Murder 1 is not appropriate and he thinks he was "more or less" charged appropriately. 

I think - just from reading the statute - murder 2 is definitely possible. But it would be harder to prove. Was there intent to kill? I think you can make that argument based on the fact that the crowd was shouting at him to stop - that he was dying. And that Floyd himself said he couldn't breathe. 

Having said all of this - its not something I really worry about. Murder 3 is fine with me. I was just trying to figure out the point tony was trying to make.

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36 minutes ago, tonydead said:

That is a given, we all know that.  What led up to him going to the ground?

a) He was resisting getting in the car.

b) The cop was trying to kill him.

I know what the logical answer is, but hey if you think it was B then yeah, go for murder in the 1st.  

You need to get up to speed on what happened. There is video of them putting him in the police car, then something happens in the car and officer Chauvin pulls him out of the car on the other side from where they put him in and kneels on his neck. The other officers run around and kneel on him as well. He wasnt resisting getting in the car, he was already in the car and then was removed from it and killed. 

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