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Another killing at the hands of the Police

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I posted this in another thread, but I'll repost here (with some edits).

https://www.independent.org/events/transcript.asp?id=116

So I've been doing some reading about racism and I stumbled across this speech by Dr. Shelby Steele who is a black author and Standford Fellow.  In the speech he discusses how institutions (and white peoples) guilt about racism is detrimental to the black community.  He talks about "white guilt" and the "race card" and how the American Government created Civil Rights Laws and then Welfare Laws to disassociate the government from racism and legitimize it to the black community and talks about how detrimental some of those policies ended up being for those same communities and how institutions and people today continue with the notion "white guilt".  Thought I'd throw this here because in the face of the riots/looting/protests it looks like the American Government is going to start discussing police reform which based on Dr. Steele's analysis of the other "white guilt" policies the Government has instituted may also have detrimental effects on the black community.  

Interested to see what people think about Dr. Steele's positions.

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15 minutes ago, Jackstraw said:

I'm good with that. Bout time one side fought back. Richest country in the world during the supposed best economy ever and the country seemed content with a permanently suffering undeclass.  

Where i disagree with the idea the protesters have the power is ultimately I believe they are cutting off their noses to spite their face. Cities are sill going to fund the basics (including law enforcement) and the politician's pet projects, but the things that won't get funded will be the programs that are meant to benefit the underclass. Programs such as after school activities, free lunches, educational programs for minorities will be the first to go.

So stressing the pocketbooks of the local governments by continuing to protest just hurts the oppressed in the long run.  

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32 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

Obama’s Blind Spot on Police Unions and Police Abuse

Really, it's not just Obama's but practically everyone's. The TLDR version is this:
 

"If you really want to reform your local police, you don’t have to run for office. You have to vote against candidates — Republican, Democrat or other — who accept campaign cash or endorsements from the people they’re supposed to supervise, such as the men and women who run police unions."

Agreed.  This is a tough one to solve though -- Republicans want to be pro-cop, and Democrats want to support public sector unions.  I'm very pessimistic about reform in this particular area.

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8 minutes ago, Snotbubbles said:

I posted this in another thread, but I'll repost here (with some edits).

https://www.independent.org/events/transcript.asp?id=116

So I've been doing some reading about racism and I stumbled across this speech by Dr. Shelby Steele who is a black author and Standford Fellow.  In the speech he discusses how institutions (and white peoples) guilt about racism is detrimental to the black community.  He talks about "white guilt" and the "race card" and how the American Government created Civil Rights Laws and then Welfare Laws to disassociate the government from racism and legitimize it to the black community and talks about how detrimental some of those policies ended up being for those same communities and how institutions and people today continue with the notion "white guilt".  Thought I'd throw this here because in the face of the riots/looting/protests it looks like the American Government is going to start discussing police reform which based on Dr. Steele's analysis of the other "white guilt" policies the Government has instituted may also have detrimental effects on the black community.  

Interested to see what people think about Dr. Steele's positions.

 

This is a long transcript and its early in the work day so its going to take a while to get comments.

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27 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:
43 minutes ago, mrip541 said:

Looks terrible. What happened the 60 seconds or so prior?

Who knows. But if he did something awful - arrest him. Don't just go beating him with a stick

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Posted (edited)

It seems like in the past lawsuits against police come out of city budgets, and not directly out of some law enforcement budget. I wonder if an easy nudge to try and encourage change would be for any lawsuit to come directly out both the offending officer and their police station instead. I am sure a chief would try and reign stuff in if they are paying out multiple lawsuits out of their own pocket, and an officer might be a little more cognizant of bashing heads if they think it will end up being a 30 year mortgage from their paychecks. It is not like this is unheard of, doctors/surgeons are able to get sued for their errors causing harm to people. Police can buy some sort of malpractice like professional liability insurance if they like. 

Edited by huthut
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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, the moops said:

Also this

https://twitter.com/nycDSA/status/1268369328149352449?s=20

They are stealing people's bikes while at the same time telling them to go home. Asked how they will get home without a bike, the cop says "figure it out on your own. take a bus"

 

So I'm guessing the cop said give me your bike and he didn't want to. Sigh.

Edited by mrip541

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2 hours ago, Da Guru said:

Defund the police is the chanting now at rallies.  A Congress woman from Detroit Rashida Tlaib actually supports defunding police.  Celebrities endorsing no police.  Is this the direction we are heading? Total anarchy?

If we don`t have local and state police we will have military police like China and Russia does. Not sure Susan Sarandon would be too happy with that.

We need to fund additional training and better vetting processes. 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

We need to fund additional training and better vetting processes. 

I agree constant training is needed.  Right now police work is difficult.  A black police officer in Detroit said "We all need training, but when you are in a chase, or a live armed robbery situation  survival instincts take over.  Detroit is a majority black PD with a black police chief and yet still are among the leaders in police shootings.  Not sure what the answer is.

Edited by Da Guru
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On 6/2/2020 at 4:30 PM, squistion said:

They are criminals, what difference does it make how they vote or what political party they are affiliated with? Doubt few if any are even registered.

And seriously, if these looters/rioters were Trump supporters, would you honestly expect them to wear MAGA hats?

it makes a difference who is creating the chaos of looting/violence/vandalism/destruction yes it absolutely does because we as a country need to deal with them accordingly - there should be no tolerance for any of what's been going on

people expect police to follow all the rules/laws all the time, people expect everyone to obey the Govt orders to wear masks all the time .... but people ironically also have no problems ignoring the rules and laws when it comes to looting/rioting/vandalism/violence and the social distancing is completely out the window right now

 

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17 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

I agree constant training is needed.  Right now police work is difficult.  A black police officer in Detroit said "We all need training, but when you are in a chase, or a live armed robbery situation  survival instincts take over.  Detroit is a majority black PD with a black police chief and yet still are among the leaders in police shootings.  Not sure what the answer is.

the red is important 

its not a race thing IMO and understanding that is very important IMO

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3 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

it makes a difference who is creating the chaos of looting/violence/vandalism/destruction yes it absolutely does because we as a country need to deal with them accordingly - there should be no tolerance for any of what's been going on

people expect police to follow all the rules/laws all the time, people expect everyone to obey the Govt orders to wear masks all the time .... but people ironically also have no problems ignoring the rules and laws when it comes to looting/rioting/vandalism/violence and the social distancing is completely out the window right now

 

Absolutely no one here believes the bolded. If you've seen a post supporting your statement, please call it out and link it. If you can't, stop saying things that aren't true. And if you believe the MSM supports it, cite it as well.

For the record, I am totally against the violence and looting and support law enforcement arresting and prosecuting all of them. I don't care if they're left- or right-wing, arrest them.

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1 hour ago, Snotbubbles said:

I posted this in another thread, but I'll repost here (with some edits).

https://www.independent.org/events/transcript.asp?id=116

So I've been doing some reading about racism and I stumbled across this speech by Dr. Shelby Steele who is a black author and Standford Fellow.  In the speech he discusses how institutions (and white peoples) guilt about racism is detrimental to the black community.  He talks about "white guilt" and the "race card" and how the American Government created Civil Rights Laws and then Welfare Laws to disassociate the government from racism and legitimize it to the black community and talks about how detrimental some of those policies ended up being for those same communities and how institutions and people today continue with the notion "white guilt".  Thought I'd throw this here because in the face of the riots/looting/protests it looks like the American Government is going to start discussing police reform which based on Dr. Steele's analysis of the other "white guilt" policies the Government has instituted may also have detrimental effects on the black community.  

Interested to see what people think about Dr. Steele's positions.

The rest of this thread for the last few pages has been brutal.  This is a beacon of hope though.  Thanks for posting it.  It's been my belief for a really long time that our "empathy" and "sympathy" are detrimental to the cause in terms of race relations.  Those two things aren't enough.  Action is where it's at.  Guilt does no good.  Same with pity.  Black people don't want my pity.  They want my support.  They want me to hear them.  They don't necessarily want me to fix it FOR them rather WITH them.  

Of course, the last few pages shows you how easily the actual point is missed and how unwilling people are to stop :pokey: back and forth in the political ring.  They'd rather stay there and piss and moan than roll up their sleeves and begin affecting change.  That's why I view what's happening today as a little different.  Police departments are dropping their guard.  They are pausing to listen and they are attempting to help.  Of course the squeaky wheel will get the attention as it will almost always drive the eyeballs and clicks.  There are litterally millions of people who will rant and rave about our media while refusing to stop watching/consuming it.  It's baffling to me.  NOTHING was more liberating for me to just dump our MSM "news" for sources outside this country...NOTHING!  There is absolutely no reaching anyone who relies and depends on our MSM for anything or anyone who measures the views of the country through the lens of how the media portrays it.  They are lost causes in my view.

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5 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

Absolutely no one here believes the bolded. If you've seen a post supporting your statement, please call it out and link it. If you can't, stop saying things that aren't true. And if you believe the MSM supports it, cite it as well.

For the record, I am totally against the violence and looting and support law enforcement arresting and prosecuting all of them. I don't care if they're left- or right-wing, arrest them.

Exactly...

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2 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Of course, the last few pages shows you how easily the actual point is missed and how unwilling people are to stop :pokey: back and forth in the political ring.  They'd rather stay there and piss and moan than roll up their sleeves and begin affecting change. 

When people stop posting false claims to make one side look bad, I'll stop pushing back on it.

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57 minutes ago, the moops said:

Who knows. But if he did something awful - arrest him. Don't just go beating him with a stick

Was it necessary for the officers two buddies to join in on the beating? This is an example of the brutality that needs to stop

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, bigbottom said:

The entire written statement from General Mattis should be required reading:

Excellent statement but he really sums it up perfectly with this sentence. 

Quote

We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership.

Edited by Waingro
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28 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

When people stop posting false claims to make one side look bad, I'll stop pushing back on it.

Certainly your decision.  You aren't changing anything by arguing with disingenuous positions.  Might feel good, but it's not moving the needle...good luck :thumbup: 

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1 minute ago, urbanhack said:

woman in Indianapolis. Moves the officers hands off of her breasts and then they beat her. Second video down. This is horrific.

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1268391718086422528?s=20

seriously this orwellian type stuff right here...you would think being under the spotlight right now they would think before acting

 

 

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1 minute ago, urbanhack said:

woman in Indianapolis. Moves the officers hands off of her breasts and then they beat her. Second video down. This is horrific.

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1268391718086422528?s=20

Ok. Maybe its the video quality...seemed more like a bad full nelson hold more so than groping.

But the beating and firing rubber bullets (I assume) was definitely over the top

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1 hour ago, Amused to Death said:

Absolutely no one here believes the bolded. If you've seen a post supporting your statement, please call it out and link it. If you can't, stop saying things that aren't true. And if you believe the MSM supports it, cite it as well.

For the record, I am totally against the violence and looting and support law enforcement arresting and prosecuting all of them. I don't care if they're left- or right-wing, arrest them.

go through 223 pages and see the posts where people agreed that this has to happen for change - how many MLK quotes were there again ?

its not just the looting / rioting (and you are right) we all disagree with that - what happened to the rabid "we have to social distance" ?

where are the arrests? fines? I mean the left have been screaming for weeks/months that covid-19 is a killer, a pandemic like no other we've seen ....... we HAVE to abide the Govt laws and rules right ?

 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=protesting+pictures+Floyd&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjZ76KS0ejpAhUoja0KHa10BEwQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=protesting+pictures+Floyd&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQA1AAWABgs2loAHAAeACAAQCIAQCSAQCYAQCqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZw&sclient=img&ei=gCjZXtmvNqiatgWt6ZHgBA&bih=553&biw=1193&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS831US834

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1 minute ago, Stealthycat said:

go through 223 pages and see the posts where people agreed that this has to happen for change - how many MLK quotes were there again ?

its not just the looting / rioting (and you are right) we all disagree with that - what happened to the rabid "we have to social distance" ?

where are the arrests? fines? I mean the left have been screaming for weeks/months that covid-19 is a killer, a pandemic like no other we've seen ....... we HAVE to abide the Govt laws and rules right ?

 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=protesting+pictures+Floyd&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjZ76KS0ejpAhUoja0KHa10BEwQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=protesting+pictures+Floyd&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQA1AAWABgs2loAHAAeACAAQCIAQCSAQCYAQCqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZw&sclient=img&ei=gCjZXtmvNqiatgWt6ZHgBA&bih=553&biw=1193&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS831US834

The bolded is being discussed in another thread.

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Posted (edited)

unarmed black people are dying from these riots, yes black lives matter, so this is very sad.

RIP David Dorn, George Floyd and everyone else that has died from the rioting or from police brutality.

 

I want to give a special thank you to the good cops that are risking their lives every day during these riots. How many of us can honestly say if we were a cop we'd show up and risk our lives during these times? How many of us would call in sick? I know i'd be scared, the cops are getting run over, their heads bashed in with bricks, fire extinguishers, and yet they still show up. HEROES. 

Shame on the politicians,media, celebrities, athletes and anyone else that glorified/justified what antifa + other people are doing during the rioting. 

I wasn't going to vote, but those people have convinced me to vote for Donald Trump with their actions, so sad. Donald Trump is a fraud, so I am not happy about having to vote for him, but now I have no choice.

 

 

Edited by giantcookie
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1 hour ago, sho nuff said:

Ok. Maybe its the video quality...seemed more like a bad full nelson hold more so than groping.

But the beating and firing rubber bullets (I assume) was definitely over the top

I wonder what happened before the video - ALWAYS wonder and ask ... its important

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1 hour ago, Amused to Death said:

The bolded is being discussed in another thread.

fact is ... it doesn't matter, the Fed and State laws about covid-19 are being ignored, as are curfews etc

laws/rules being broken in the name of good I guess :( 

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54 minutes ago, giantcookie said:

I want to give a special thank you to the good cops that are risking their lives every day during these riots. How many of us can honestly say if we were a cop we'd show up and risk our lives during these times? How many of us would call in sick? I know i'd be scared, the cops are getting run over, their heads bashed in with bricks, fire extinguishers, and yet they still show up. HEROES. 

Shame on the politicians,media, celebrities, athletes and anyone else that glorified/justified what antifa + other people are doing during the rioting. 

I wasn't going to vote, but those people have convinced me to vote for Donald Trump with their actions, so sad. Donald Trump is a fraud, so I am not happy about having to vote for him, but now I have no choice.

 

 

How many of us would kneel on a person for 9 minutes until they were dead?

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42 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:
1 hour ago, sho nuff said:

Ok. Maybe its the video quality...seemed more like a bad full nelson hold more so than groping.

But the beating and firing rubber bullets (I assume) was definitely over the top

I wonder what happened before the video - ALWAYS wonder and ask ... its important

I just don't get this. There is little that she could have done before this that would have resulted in me with it being OK to beat her like this. Use your ####ign handcuffs and place them under arrrest if they did something wrong. I don't know how anyone can be OK with police beating people with sticks. It is gross

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17 minutes ago, the moops said:

I just don't get this. There is little that she could have done before this that would have resulted in me with it being OK to beat her like this. Use your ####ign handcuffs and place them under arrrest if they did something wrong. I don't know how anyone can be OK with police beating people with sticks. It is gross

I am not police, I've not had to live a day in their shoes

I know this - when an officer tells someone to do something, especially with this kind of below volatility ... its best to just do it

 

https://www.foxnews.com/us/santa-monica-music-center-looters-armed 

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33 minutes ago, the moops said:

I just don't get this. There is little that she could have done before this that would have resulted in me with it being OK to beat her like this. Use your ####ign handcuffs and place them under arrrest if they did something wrong. I don't know how anyone can be OK with police beating people with sticks. It is gross

I don’t know what you’re upset about. The flu kills way more people than the police. 

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14 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

I am not police, I've not had to live a day in their shoes

You are not a professional football player, yet that hasn't stopped you from commenting on the merits of kneeling.

 

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Man, Sharpton is fantastic, and this sign language interpreter is the best I've ever seen. 

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3 minutes ago, the moops said:

You are not a professional football player, yet that hasn't stopped you from commenting on the merits of kneeling.

 

Relevant

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Not sure if mentioned yet, but on the Chicago news last night was video of three black women (one who is in her late 50s) who had unknowingly gone to a mall to shop ..not realizing the stores were closed due to earlier problems. The video, shot by a friend or relative in a second car, shows about a dozen cops attacking the car on the middle of the parking lot.  They smashed windows, dragged the women out of the car, kept them on the ground.  I can't imagine why they'd do that.  This was three miles from my house.  

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5 hours ago, jon_mx said:

Right-wing protest....

MSM seeks out the worst elements and magnifies it to cast a bad light on the entire movement.

Left-wing protest....

MSM seeks out the best elements to rationalize and downplay all the violence.

That is 100 percent what happens.  You csn either acknowledge this truth or you can continue your partisan ways.  

I'm not going to say there hasn't been any bad behavior by "the left", but the police reaction to these protests has had a stark difference.

On one hand we have the right wing protesters cosplaying Call of Duty while armed with assault rifles and the police just stand by peacefully.

On the other hand we have left wing protesters who are unarmed and peaceful, albeit in much larger numbers, and the police escalate the tension and IMHO instigate the violence.  I've lost count of the number of journalists and news reporters who have gotten assaulted by police during these protests.

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1 minute ago, tri-man 47 said:

Not sure if mentioned yet, but on the Chicago news last night was video of three black women (one who is in her late 50s) who had unknowingly gone to a mall to shop ..not realizing the stores were closed due to earlier problems. The video, shot by a friend or relative in a second car, shows about a dozen cops attacking the car on the middle of the parking lot.  They smashed windows, dragged the women out of the car, kept them on the ground.  I can't imagine why they'd do that.  This was three miles from my house.  

https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2020/06/03/police-drag-women-out-of-car-outside-brickyard-mall-woman-says-officer-put-knee-on-neck/

Why does it take a swarm of officers to arrest/detain/question 3 women?

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6 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I'm becoming convinced that our police forces are attracting too many people who aren't really cut out for the military but who want to LARP as an Army ranger anyway. 

*uses taser* LIGHTNING BOLT!

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Also - when the hell did the billy club become so prevalent again?

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3 hours ago, The Commish said:

The rest of this thread for the last few pages has been brutal.  This is a beacon of hope though.  Thanks for posting it.  It's been my belief for a really long time that our "empathy" and "sympathy" are detrimental to the cause in terms of race relations.  Those two things aren't enough.  Action is where it's at.  Guilt does no good.  Same with pity.  Black people don't want my pity.  They want my support.  They want me to hear them.  They don't necessarily want me to fix it FOR them rather WITH them.  

Of course, the last few pages shows you how easily the actual point is missed and how unwilling people are to stop :pokey: back and forth in the political ring.  They'd rather stay there and piss and moan than roll up their sleeves and begin affecting change.  That's why I view what's happening today as a little different.  Police departments are dropping their guard.  They are pausing to listen and they are attempting to help.  Of course the squeaky wheel will get the attention as it will almost always drive the eyeballs and clicks.  There are litterally millions of people who will rant and rave about our media while refusing to stop watching/consuming it.  It's baffling to me.  NOTHING was more liberating for me to just dump our MSM "news" for sources outside this country...NOTHING!  There is absolutely no reaching anyone who relies and depends on our MSM for anything or anyone who measures the views of the country through the lens of how the media portrays it.  They are lost causes in my view.

👍   I haven't watched MSM in years.

With regard to the article, it is thought provoking.  I think to be more explicit my interpretation was that the author was focused less on "its about action and not guilt" and more about "the framework is in place for blacks to succeed and white guilt (and the milking of white guilt) is detrimental to success".  I don't think it would be favorably received by folks that are left leaning, but interested in their view.

I think there is merit to what the author has to say.  It has to go hand in hand with continuing to ensure, to improve the realization of equal treatment under the law (the author doesn't imply that goal is not important, just not what he addresses).

 

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4 hours ago, Da Guru said:

I agree constant training is needed.  Right now police work is difficult.  A black police officer in Detroit said "We all need training, but when you are in a chase, or a live armed robbery situation  survival instincts take over.  Detroit is a majority black PD with a black police chief and yet still are among the leaders in police shootings.  Not sure what the answer is.

I would like to think generally people are aware of this.  It is part of the reason officers are often given benefit of the doubt and their cases are treated differently than the average violent criminal.  It can take time to sort out.  I am OK with that.  Clearly many people are not.  I think they would be more patient of the investigations is they would see justice served on the back end.  Too many times, they do not.  But situations like Chauvin do not fit what this Detroit officer is saying.  This wasn't a case of survival instincts taking over...it was calmly and deliberately executed abuse.  I don't have the answers for all situations either, but we have to find an answer to prevent the discriminatory abuse.

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20 minutes ago, the moops said:

Also - when the hell did the billy club become so prevalent again?

May 25th

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34 minutes ago, Dickies said:

I'm not going to say there hasn't been any bad behavior by "the left", but the police reaction to these protests has had a stark difference.

On one hand we have the right wing protesters cosplaying Call of Duty while armed with assault rifles and the police just stand by peacefully.

On the other hand we have left wing protesters who are unarmed and peaceful, albeit in much larger numbers, and the police escalate the tension and IMHO instigate the violence.  I've lost count of the number of journalists and news reporters who have gotten assaulted by police during these protests.

Generally, right wing protests don't involve throwing stuff at police, looting, and vandelism.  That could be why police treat them a little better.  There is just a level of hostility that is not present.  

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