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Another killing at the hands of the Police (4 Viewers)

Way more likely to be killed while unarmed based on what metric?
From this article:

https://www.diversityinc.com/data-police-disproportionately-killed-black-people-2017/

"Most of the unarmed people killed were people of color (48 were Black, 34 were Hispanic, 2 were Native American and 2 were Pacific Islander 50 were white, and 11 were unknown).

Of those unarmed when they were killed, 35 percent were Black, and of those unarmed and not attacking, 37 percent were Black despite only constituting 13 percent of the population."

 
Didn't see the protests for the multiple officers killed this week so...
Not to take away from those tragedies, but why would there be protests for officers getting killed? What exactly would they be protesting? It’s well known that there a lot of awful non-cop citizens and by signing up to be a cop, it’s well understood that you’re putting your life on the line every day.

 
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These are things which we need to be discussing, to me these issues are way more significant than police brutality. Something like 50× as many blacks are murdered by regular people than cops. These murders are directly related to drug laws and unaddressed economic issues caused by these laws. Not to mention all the otherwise innocent young men placed behind bars for possessing a hand gun or drugs.
Yes. 94% of African American murders were committed by other African Americans.  Also, thanks to Biden for almost 20 years crack sentences were 100 time tougher compared to coke (now they're only 18x tougher).  Charlemagne the God started to get into Biden's crime policies before Biden's PR person tried to cut the interview and Biden made the "you ain't black" comment.  Biden may have done some good things in his political career but his criminal justice policies were damaging to the black community.

 
I noticed a lot of guys like to attack sources instead of points. They also like to take it one step further and say you're racist for quoting this guy because he's racist, while completely disregarding the point.

The sad part is, everyone on the left has labeled pretty much every guy on the right as a racist. 

Rush, Hannity, Trump, Shapiro etc
Hopefully you took the time to read the speech I posted in this thread from Dr. Shelby Steele (also in the Trump is Great thread).  Once you read that, you'll understand why people play the race card and the reaction it is intended to elicit. 

EDIT:  If you don't have time, the basic gist is black America has gained moral authority over the white and corporate America.  White's and corporate America are so scared to have the stigma of being branded racists that they will do anything to disassociate themselves from the stigma (what Steel termed "white guilt").  However, this is counterproductive to the black man because he only has to use the race card to get his way.  This has negatively affected generations of blacks because when things require work and determination, they use racism as the reason for not being able to achieve their intended purpose, he calls this "bad faith".  Dr. Steele challenged black Americans to begin living in "good faith" and encouraged black leaders to stop relying on the "manipulation of white guilt," an act that achieves only a false sense of advancement and has cyclically catapulted black Americans back into much the same disadvantaged position in which they started out. He also urged white Americans to reject white guilt and accept the fact that since 1965, "white America has made one of the greatest moral evolutions in all of human history.   

 
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I noticed a lot of guys like to attack sources instead of points. They also like to take it one step further and say you're racist for quoting this guy because he's racist, while completely disregarding the point.

The sad part is, everyone on the left has labeled pretty much every guy on the right as a racist. 

Rush, Hannity, Trump, Shapiro etc
I dint believe anyone called you a racist for posting it.

But I believe such awful sources of misinformation should be called out.  And that is what cernovich is.  So while I could pass by the post (just as a certain poster could pass by mine without constantly making comments about me k mnowing I will never ever respond to him) I sometimes choose to combat the misinformation and inform the poster that the source they chose is not a reliable one.  

In this case...I did also address the tweet as information that wasn't really relevant to what is being protested....as it didnt actually address the main concerns at all.  And did so without making any comment about you personally.

 
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I don't really want to kick off the tear gas/no tear gas slap fight again, but I feel that truth matters so I have to post this:

Local DC media WUSA9 collected both OC (pepper gas) and CS (tear gas) gas grenades after protesters were dispersed outside the White House. Pictures included.
Apparently, this is a hilarious post. 
It likely wont be addressed by those who tried to claim some sort of victory in teargasgate...as it was already ignored that it being tear gas or not was never the crux of the problem with the stunt.

 
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I dint believe anyone called you a racist for posting it.

But I believe such awful sources of misinformation should be called out.  And that is what cernovich is.  So while I could pass by the post (just as a certain poster could pass by mine without constantly making comments about me k mnowing I will never ever respond to him) I sometimes choose to combat the misinformation and inform the poster that the source they chose is not a reliable one.  

In this case...I did also address the tweet as information that wasn't really relevant to what is being protested....as it didnt actually address the main concerns at all.  And did so without making any comment about you personally.
Just because you don’t like the source doesn’t mean the info isn’t true. Stop with the source cop shtick.

 
I noticed a lot of guys like to attack sources instead of points. They also like to take it one step further and say you're racist for quoting this guy because he's racist, while completely disregarding the point.

The sad part is, everyone on the left has labeled pretty much every guy on the right as a racist. 

Rush, Hannity, Trump, Shapiro etc
I will preface this by saying I don't have a clue who those sources are that have been the center of the back and forth (Mike Cernovich and Jack Posibiec).  I know nothing of their content and I am not on twitter much if that is their platform.  I will say that the bolded is exactly what should be done when evaluating the validity of the information.  I don't understand how that can ever be a criticism of someone.  You simply can not, should not, put stock in claims from an untrustworthy source. 

Clearly you guys are in disagreement as to whether these two particular sources are credible.  As such, wouldn't it be wise to provide additional evidence in support whatever claim is being made?  Build an evidence based argument rather than simply make a claim.

ETA:  This is true of both sides, left and right. 

 
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I will preface this by saying I don't have a clue who those sources are that have been the center of the back and forth (Mike Cernovich and Jack Posibiec).  I know nothing of their content and I am not on twitter much if that is their platform.  I will say that the bolded is exactly what should be done when evaluating the validity of the information.  I don't understand how that can ever be a criticism of someone.  You simply can not, should not, put stock in claims from an untrustworthy source. 

Clearly you guys are in disagreement as to whether these two particular sources are credible.  As such, wouldn't it be wise to provide additional evidence in support whatever claim is being made?  Build an evidence based argument rather than make a claim.
I attacked both the source and the information he provided.  
 

Cernovich was a guy who pushed the pizzagate conspiracy and I believe Seth Rich conspiracy as well.

But yes those two sources have a history of posting false and misleading information. They are not reliable and should be discounted any tome they are posted...similar to an Alex Jones.

 
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Okay great anyone that ever pushed RussiaGate should have the rest of their content immediately discounted because of previous false and misleading information.  This should go well.  Maybe there can just be a thread about sources and keep the attacks there instead of derailing the other threads.  

 
Police brutality needs to stop, that’s the bottom line.  With the technology available now, there is no reason for anyone not to support all cops being held accountable.  I’m white, but I wholeheartedly support this effort from the black community, and will do anything I can to help their cause.  In the end it helps everyone, not sure why people are saying whites get killed more, even if that was true, no one has tried to hold the police accountable on a large scale other than the black community.   If we leave it up to us white people, nothing will change, and that is so sad.  

 
I will acknowledge that you are trolling again.  I will acknowledge that Sho Nuff laughed at your post, who ironically cries for people to stop making things personal all the time but doesn't follow his own advice.  
His post was about acknowledging something...he didn’t call you anything or get personal.

And I laughed because I was positive he would be right that it wouldn't actually get addressed.

But if you have issues with people laughing at posts...better start  calling out a large group of people.

 
jon_mx said:
Generally, right wing protests don't involve throwing stuff at police, looting, and vandelism.  That could be why police treat them a little better.  There is just a level of hostility that is not present.  
I'd like the employees at bombed abortion clinics to weigh in on this debate.  

 
I will preface this by saying I don't have a clue who those sources are that have been the center of the back and forth (Mike Cernovich and Jack Posibiec).  I know nothing of their content and I am not on twitter much if that is their platform.  I will say that the bolded is exactly what should be done when evaluating the validity of the information.  I don't understand how that can ever be a criticism of someone.  You simply can not, should not, put stock in claims from an untrustworthy source. 

Clearly you guys are in disagreement as to whether these two particular sources are credible.  As such, wouldn't it be wise to provide additional evidence in support whatever claim is being made?  Build an evidence based argument rather than simply make a claim.

ETA:  This is true of both sides, left and right. 
search any popular guy on google thats right leaning, you will find plenty of hit pieces on almost every single one of them. The left tries to force their point and shut down conversation by attacking people that disagree with them as racists.

 
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His post was about acknowledging something...he didn’t call you anything or get personal.

And I laughed because I was positive he would be right that it wouldn't actually get addressed.

But if you have issues with people laughing at posts...better start  calling out a large group of people.
He didn't get personal?  He called me out by name.  How is that not getting personal?  Do you honestly hear yourself?

And yes, I don't believe a word of that article as it was proven tear gas was not used.  They would not drop tear gas in an area and the minutes later have Trump walk through with no mask.   :lmao:

 
giantcookie said:
unarmed black people are dying from these riots, yes black lives matter, so this is very sad.

RIP David Dorn, George Floyd and everyone else that has died from the rioting or from police brutality.

I want to give a special thank you to the good cops that are risking their lives every day during these riots. How many of us can honestly say if we were a cop we'd show up and risk our lives during these times? How many of us would call in sick? I know i'd be scared, the cops are getting run over, their heads bashed in with bricks, fire extinguishers, and yet they still show up. HEROES. 

Shame on the politicians,media, celebrities, athletes and anyone else that glorified/justified what antifa + other people are doing during the rioting. 

I wasn't going to vote, but those people have convinced me to vote for Donald Trump with their actions, so sad. Donald Trump is a fraud, so I am not happy about having to vote for him, but now I have no choice.
Based on your posting history, I would not have expected you to vote for anyone but Trump (if you were to vote). You have not come across in this forum as any kind of independent thinker IMO.

 
Police brutality needs to stop, that’s the bottom line.  With the technology available now, there is no reason for anyone not to support all cops being held accountable.  I’m white, but I wholeheartedly support this effort from the black community, and will do anything I can to help their cause.  In the end it helps everyone, not sure why people are saying whites get killed more, even if that was true, no one has tried to hold the police accountable on a large scale other than the black community.   If we leave it up to us white people, nothing will change, and that is so sad.  
The issue on police brutality goes far deeper then just the Black community. Poor white people have had their rights violated, I've seen cops get over aggressive and excessive use of force on a 12 year old girl, cops shoot a dog on a leash "because they feared for their life", break into homes without proper paper work and then when the person tries to defend their home or the person the cops go after the cops hit them with some bull#### charge, cops use excessive force on an autistic person, etc etc. The issue here is cops having carte blanche to do whatever the hell they want and be above the law with ZERO ACCOUNTABILITY. The corruption runs deep from the Unions to HQ1 all the way up to mayors and other politicians. Find the sources and chop it off at the head. 

The issue this past week is the State and president had 2 options and I think it was a pretty blatant one. Despite charging Chauvin they didn't charge the other 3 with contempt and other charges who were there and did nothing to stop it or were part of the problem.

A charge the other 3 cops 

b. Allow civil unrest not charge the other 3 cops and allow widespread protests from people who are clearly absolutely done with the BS system to hold cops accountable for breaking the law

They chose option b and well this is what they got. The tone deaf and ignorance in this country is appalling. I have friends and family and other countries who are thinking of never coming to the US again after this. This is bad for the tourist economy but also bad for the image of the US as a whole. Trump has done little to calm any of this. Also the National guard and others using the statement military is incorrect as Trump cannot put active troops on American soil besides the National Guard and those similar. His terminology was done as scare tactics but I also think he just doesn't know what he's doing and or he doesn't care and trying to become more of a dictator by the day. I got a strong feeling he feels he won't win in November so he's doing everything he can now to get on the defensive. If he looses in Nov he will not be leaving the office quietly. He'll be lead out in handcuffs with anyone else who plots with him. Thats the fear amongst many in this country right now and been so the last 4 yrs. Even if he does get voted out not many (people even who know him personally believe this) he won't willing step out of office for the next regime. 

 
Galileo said:
I would like to think generally people are aware of this.  It is part of the reason officers are often given benefit of the doubt and their cases are treated differently than the average violent criminal.  It can take time to sort out.  I am OK with that.  Clearly many people are not.  I think they would be more patient of the investigations is they would see justice served on the back end.  Too many times, they do not.  But situations like Chauvin do not fit what this Detroit officer is saying.  This wasn't a case of survival instincts taking over...it was calmly and deliberately executed abuse.  I don't have the answers for all situations either, but we have to find an answer to prevent the discriminatory abuse.
I agree and I  don`t think you will find anyone anywhere defending what Chauvin did. It was a slow murder that could have easily been prevented.

Instant life and death decision are made at times and mistakes are made.   Everybody makes mistakes on their jobs, but we still go home at night.  When a cop makes a mistake either he or the perp has a chance of not going home that night.  Tough gig for sure.

 
From this article:

https://www.diversityinc.com/data-police-disproportionately-killed-black-people-2017/

"Most of the unarmed people killed were people of color (48 were Black, 34 were Hispanic, 2 were Native American and 2 were Pacific Islander 50 were white, and 11 were unknown).

Of those unarmed when they were killed, 35 percent were Black, and of those unarmed and not attacking, 37 percent were Black despite only constituting 13 percent of the population."
As had been discussed before, the issue with this data set is the denominator is percent of population and not percent of criminal interactions, General police interactions, etc

Using this same methodology one would deduce police are killing men at a rate indicating sexism because 95% of deaths are men but they are only 50% of the population.

Everybody is agreeing George Floyd’s death was wrong.  The data being citied to illustrate that “black lives don’t matter”, such as the data set above, doesn’t do that any more than mine illustrates male lives don’t matter or matter less or that males are disproportionately harmed relative to number of interactions.

 
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Hopefully you took the time to read the speech I posted in this thread from Dr. Shelby Steele (also in the Trump is Great thread).  Once you read that, you'll understand why people play the race card and the reaction it is intended to elicit. 

EDIT:  If you don't have time, the basic gist is black America has gained moral authority over the white and corporate America.  White's and corporate America are so scared to have the stigma of being branded racists that they will do anything to disassociate themselves from the stigma (what Steel termed "white guilt").  However, this is counterproductive to the black man because he only has to use the race card to get his way.  This has negatively affected generations of blacks because when things require work and determination, they use racism as the reason for not being able to achieve their intended purpose, he calls this "bad faith".  Dr. Steele challenged black Americans to begin living in "good faith" and encouraged black leaders to stop relying on the "manipulation of white guilt," an act that achieves only a false sense of advancement and has cyclically catapulted black Americans back into much the same disadvantaged position in which they started out. He also urged white Americans to reject white guilt and accept the fact that since 1965, "white America has made one of the greatest moral evolutions in all of human history.   
This needs clarification IMO.  You're missing the word "some" here.  There are many reasons people play the race card.  Many times it's because it's actually racism.  I can appreciate the speech and I can appreciate that it applies to some people.  However, it is NOT "the" reason.

 
This needs clarification IMO.  You're missing the word "some" here.  There are many reasons people play the race card.  Many times it's because it's actually racism.  I can appreciate the speech and I can appreciate that it applies to some people.  However, it is NOT "the" reason.
Read Dr. Shelby Steele's "White Guilt".  The use of the word "some" isn't necessary.  Here is Steele on the race card:

"Well, in many ways I think that’s what happened in America. Whites became stigmatized as racist. And from that point on whites were in the position of forever having to prove the negative, that they’re not a racist. And again, if they don’t prove the negative, then the stigma sticks. Well, you must be a racist. And so since that time whites, and particularly, again, institutions, have lived under threat of stigmatization.

Why’s that important? It’s important because if you are stigmatized as a racist in American society—an institution, let’s say. It’s easier, I think, to see on the institutional level. Then that institution becomes illegitimate. It loses its legitimacy. It loses its ability to really function in this society. So the stigma, again, has a powerful impact, because it has so much control over legitimacy. How can you be a legitimate institution in a multi-racial society that is supposed to be free, and everyone is supposed to be equal under the law—how can you be legitimate if you don’t have any blacks in your institution?

So we could look at a disparity like that—blacks could—again, moral authority having passed to us. We could look at a disparity like that, and we could say you don’t have any blacks in your institution. It’s a racist institution. It’s illegitimate. We will sue it. We will do whatever it takes. And in a sense since the ‘60s that’s pretty much what has been —what has happened is that minorities have begun to sort of manipulate that stigma. We call it some circles today the race card. Play the race card. What does the race card mean? Well, if you don’t do what I want you to do, then you’re going to be stigmatized as a racist, and the price you’ll pay is you’ll lose your legitimacy."

Steele acknowledges that racism exists but he treats it as powerless.  Steele on racism:

"Now, we had just defeated racism [talking about the civil rights movement]. We had just stepped into much greater freedom. But we were never as obsessed with racism when we were actually segregated as we are today in freedom. Today we are obsessed—we worship at the church of racism. Racism is everywhere, it’s just so subtle. It’s in every little situation. And we’re still being victimized by it, and that explains why we haven’t done better.

And so we are a people traumatized not by oppression, but by freedom. And the great challenge that faces us a people—and I have every faith that we will live up to it, is to learn to thrive in freedom.

We’re free. It doesn’t matter that there’s still racism in the world. White supremacy no longer has any authority. So what if somebody believes white people are superior? I don’t care. If they can’t interrupt my life, and if they can’t keep me from becoming educated and taking out loans in banks and pursuing my dreams, what do I care? I’m not going to lose any sleep over someone like that."

His argument is that it isn't racism that holds a black person back.  It's a combination of "bad faith" (ie, excuse making) and "white guilt" policies like welfare that have destroyed black families.

 
Remove all of the cops immediately. Just let the protestors do their thing. It should end well.
This post should be submitted to the Guinness Book of World records for the longest jump to conclusions.

But seriously, nobody is saying to get rid of cops. What we(or at least I) want is to demilitarize the police and retrain them, along with making it easier for bad cops to be fired.

 
What exactly does this mean ?
For me, it means no more military equipment or training, for starters. Police have almost no use for high powered rifles, flak jackets and helmets on daily patrol, and certainly no APCs. Their training should better reflect interaction in a civilian population, not as an occupying military force. They're to serve and protect, which is a lot harder to do looking like soldiers in a foreign country.

 
Which brings me to an unanswered question that id love to just get some insight.

@jon_mx do you believe Mike Cernovich and Jack Posibiec are legitimate and reliable sources?

Im not attacking you, Im not asking about other media...Im asking about those two.  And didn't want the question from earlier getting lost in all the discussion.
I have zero idea who they are.  

 
For me, it means no more military equipment or training, for starters. Police have almost no use for high powered rifles, flak jackets and helmets on daily patrol, and certainly no APCs. Their training should better reflect interaction in a civilian population, not as an occupying military force. They're to serve and protect, which is a lot harder to do looking like soldiers in a foreign country.
I agree...the Sheriff of Mayberry did not even carry a gun and they had no problems.

 
Stop supplying police departments with weapons of war: submachine guns, military rifles, armored vehicles. 
When  a school is attacked and children are in danger people don`t care.  When there is multiple hostage situations people don`t care,  that situation in LA years ago the perps had better, more powerful weapons than the police and were unstoppable wearing body armor. 

If we want to be like Mexico where the criminals are better armed than the police then just give every cop a 38  and wish them the  best.

 
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I agree...the Sheriff of Mayberry did not even carry a gun and they had no problems.
Hyperbole is unbecoming of you. I'm not saying to not train or properly equip them at all, but the vast majority of police officers in this country have no use for battlefield equipment, because they'll probably never be on an actual battlefield here, and military training is designed to make the trainee better at fighting wars, not dealing with John Q. Public who coasted through that stop sign.

 
:mellow:

Um, yeah...alright...great example...


Hyperbole is unbecoming of you. I'm not saying to not train or properly equip them at all, but the vast majority of police officers in this country have no use for battlefield equipment, because they'll probably never be on an actual battlefield here, and military training is designed to make the trainee better at fighting wars, not dealing with John Q. Public who coasted through that stop sign.
I agree..but the one time they do have use for it we will all be saying why??  Why..were we not prepared.

 
When  a school is attacked and children are in danger people don`t care.  When there is multiple hostage situations people don`t care,  that situation in LA years ago the perps had better, more powerful weapons than the police and were unstoppable wearing body armor. 

If we want to be like Mexico where the criminals are better armed than the police then just give every cop a 38  and wish them the  best.
Yeah, all of this ^
 

imo

 
I agree..but the one time they do have use for it we will all be saying why??  Why..were we not prepared.
Are you expecting some type of invading force? I mean, I grew up outside Detroit, but I highly doubt the Canadians are gearing up to head across the river. Even on the southern border, the cartels aren't going to want to draw the attention of the actual military, which is what would happen if they tried anything. Oh, and you mentioned criminals having better weapons than the police in Mexico. That's because the cartels run most things there, and the police are allegedly pretty corrupt themselves. That's not going to happen here, even if we take away most of the police toys they'd barely ever use outside of target practice.

 
Remove all of the cops immediately. Just let the protestors do their thing. It should end well.


This post should be submitted to the Guinness Book of World records for the longest jump to conclusions.

But seriously, nobody is saying to get rid of cops. What we(or at least I) want is to demilitarize the police and retrain them, along with making it easier for bad cops to be fired.
It's exactly what all the looting idiots want. Until someone's family member needs help, then all of the cop haters are screaming "where were the police, what took so long. I cant believe they let this happen.  Whiny HYPOCRITES 

 
Are you expecting some type of invading force? I mean, I grew up outside Detroit, but I highly doubt the Canadians are gearing up to head across the river. Even on the southern border, the cartels aren't going to want to draw the attention of the actual military, which is what would happen if they tried anything. Oh, and you mentioned criminals having better weapons than the police in Mexico. That's because the cartels run most things there, and the police are allegedly pretty corrupt themselves. That's not going to happen here, even if we take away most of the police toys they'd barely ever use outside of target practice.
I am not talking about just Detroit.

And when the police have less resources than the criminals that is how cartels and mobs take over with corruption of the police. 

 

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