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Another killing at the hands of the Police (2 Viewers)

https://twitter.com/davenewworld_2/status/1297698630875385856?s=21
 

Going to get ugly again. They’re all bad but this ones extra terrible.  Kenosha WI this time
I live about an hour away. This one looks really bad.

Dude had apparently been trying to break up a fight between a couple of women. Yes, he ignored orders to stop, and yes, he could very easily have been reaching for a gun when he got to the car. But the cops had every opportunity to take him down before he ever got there. And his kids were in the car when the cop emptied the clip in his back.

No bueno.

 
https://twitter.com/davenewworld_2/status/1297698630875385856?s=21
 

Going to get ugly again. They’re all bad but this ones extra terrible.  Kenosha WI this time
The cops should have tackled him way before he got to the car door.  Once he opened the door though you have no idea what is in there and what he could be grabbing.  Why didn't he stop on their orders?   Either way, the cops screwed up by not taking him to the ground earlier.

 
The cops should have tackled him way before he got to the car door.  Once he opened the door though you have no idea what is in there and what he could be grabbing.  Why didn't he stop on their orders?   Either way, the cops screwed up by not taking him to the ground earlier.
Not trying to be snarky - this is an honest question. Is that the standard for the use of deadly force?  I have no idea what he could be grabbing (or if he’s even grabbing anything), so I shoot him multiple times in the back?

 
Not trying to be snarky - this is an honest question. Is that the standard for the use of deadly force?  I have no idea what he could be grabbing (or if he’s even grabbing anything), so I shoot him multiple times in the back?
Ask someone that thinks that or said that.  :shrug:

 
Ah okay. Yeah, once he opened the door, I can understand the cops becoming extremely apprehensive about the situation. Maybe yank him backwards instead. Or tase him. Or perhaps just back off completely. 
Or maybe comply in the first place?

Sucks he was shot and hope he makes it.  But damn, if you are going to walk away from police and open a car door and reach inside...bad stuff is coming your way.  I guess the cops should have tackled him, but dang it people, just comply and don't escalate the situation.

 
but dang it people, just comply and don't escalate the situation.
I agree with this, too. But even though he didn’t, they could’ve easily prevented this from getting to the point where he even had an opportunity to potentially retrieve a weapon.

 
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Or maybe comply in the first place?

Sucks he was shot and hope he makes it.  But damn, if you are going to walk away from police and open a car door and reach inside...bad stuff is coming your way.  I guess the cops should have tackled him, but dang it people, just comply and don't escalate the situation.
Of course the guy should have complied. But the question is whether the cops should have done something differently once he got to the car. Why is backing away not an alternative to shooting him in the back?

Perhaps we’ll learn additional details that will help make sense of the situation. Maybe he was reaching for a gun and they saw it. 

 
Or maybe comply in the first place?

Sucks he was shot and hope he makes it.  But damn, if you are going to walk away from police and open a car door and reach inside...bad stuff is coming your way.  I guess the cops should have tackled him, but dang it people, just comply and don't escalate the situation.
Seriously.  No one deserves to die from resisting arrest.  But you are almost literally playing Russian roulette when guns are pointed at you and you ignore commands from the police in a tense situation.  

Why do folks feel like they can spin the wheel of risk in these situations, and be completely surprised when the wheel lands on bad outcomes?

 
I agree with this, too. But even though he didn’t, they could’ve easily prevented this from getting to the point where he even had an opportunity to potentially retrieve a weapon.
I'll agree, but why should the cops have to beat/take someone down in the first place and put themselves in jeopardy.  If you're not a threat, then do act like you're a threat.

 
Of course the guy should have complied. But the question is whether the cops should have done something differently once he got to the car. Why is backing away not an alternative to shooting him in the back?

Perhaps we’ll learn additional details that will help make sense of the situation. Maybe he was reaching for a gun and they saw it. 
I guess the issue is if they stand down and he grabs and gun and shoots whoever is in the car, then the cops get crucified for not serving and protecting.  

 
Seriously.  No one deserves to die from resisting arrest.  But you are almost literally playing Russian roulette when guns are pointed at you and you ignore commands from the police in a tense situation.  

Why do folks feel like they can spin the wheel of risk in these situations, and be completely surprised when the wheel lands on bad outcomes?
I don't know.  The cop screwed up but don't put the cop in a situation where he might screw up.  Stop doing stupid stuff people.

 
We can wait to train all policemen to be more racially sensitive, restructure policy departments, etc.  Or we can improve training for Policemen to better de-escalate situations like this one WHILE at the same time encouraging all people to follow the commands of law enforcement officials.

Black Lives Matter, and there's no single better thing black folks, white folks, or any colored folks can do when engaged with the police, than to comply in tense situations.  When guns are drawn, or could it, it's not the time to act like a badass.  If you do, you're taking a risk with your life that may not end up the way you want it to.  Partly due to poor decisions on your part, maybe partly due to poor training for officers, or a number of other issues.  But defuse the situation. Comply, and you're almost guaranteed to have a better outcome than if you resist.

There's far to much abuse of power by police, absurd uses of force, powertrips, and yes racism, in addition to poor police tactics, and the list goes on.  Continue to expose those, highlight them, get them resolved.  But in the meantime, comply.  And if you don't know you have a non-zero chance of getting shot/killed if the situation doesn't go your way.

 
Not trying to be snarky - this is an honest question. Is that the standard for the use of deadly force?  I have no idea what he could be grabbing (or if he’s even grabbing anything), so I shoot him multiple times in the back?
No, but if the officer sees a gun in the vehicle that the subject is reaching for or has grabbed, that is a justified shooting. Doesn't matter if the dude was shot in the back. Many cops have been shot by an offender whose back was to them but let off rounds behind him towards the officers. Eddie Johnson (former Superintendent of CPD, slump god) was grazed in the head by exactly this situation. In fact, the recent shooting of a 20 year old by CPD in Englewood (which was first reported to be a 15 year old due to reactionary social media) was this situation as well. While running away from officers (back to them), he fired off rounds, which resulted in return fire by officers, striking the offender.

Keep in mind, I am not trying to defend the officer's actions here. The video looks bad, and apparently Kenosha does not have body cams. The video is what it is, and unfortunately there are a lot of unknown details at this point. Even if a gun is recovered in the vehicle, I don't think that will change much.

 
Reading on Twitter that the guy who was shot has a history of gun-related offenses and has a current arrest warrant for sexual assault and domestic violence. 

If the cops knew who he was, it might at least help explain the aggressive attitude. And there’s probably a pretty good chance that there was a gun in the vehicle.

 
Seriously.  No one deserves to die from resisting arrest.  But you are almost literally playing Russian roulette when guns are pointed at you and you ignore commands from the police in a tense situation.  

Why do folks feel like they can spin the wheel of risk in these situations, and be completely surprised when the wheel lands on bad outcomes?
When you feel like your life might be at risk your sympathetic nervous system hits the fight or flight button.   Kind of difficult to sit still and follow orders once that happens and you can't exactly overcome it consciously.  

 
When you feel like your life might be at risk your sympathetic nervous system hits the fight or flight button.   Kind of difficult to sit still and follow orders once that happens and you can't exactly overcome it consciously.  
It’s actually pretty easy to sit still and freeze when a weapon is pointed at you. 

 
I'm not sure what the Kenosha policies are, but you are likely to see more of this as you limit force officers CAN use prior to deadly force.  Is there a choke hold policy for Kenosha?  

 
We can wait to train all policemen to be more racially sensitive, restructure policy departments, etc.  Or we can improve training for Policemen to better de-escalate situations like this one WHILE at the same time encouraging all people to follow the commands of law enforcement officials.

Black Lives Matter, and there's no single better thing black folks, white folks, or any colored folks can do when engaged with the police, than to comply in tense situations.  When guns are drawn, or could it, it's not the time to act like a badass.  If you do, you're taking a risk with your life that may not end up the way you want it to.  Partly due to poor decisions on your part, maybe partly due to poor training for officers, or a number of other issues.  But defuse the situation. Comply, and you're almost guaranteed to have a better outcome than if you resist.

There's far to much abuse of power by police, absurd uses of force, powertrips, and yes racism, in addition to poor police tactics, and the list goes on.  Continue to expose those, highlight them, get them resolved.  But in the meantime, comply.  And if you don't know you have a non-zero chance of getting shot/killed if the situation doesn't go your way.
As to the bolded, I'm sorry but I expect trained officers to be able to "defuse the situation", not citizens that aren't typically in that situation.

That guy could have been autistic. Or high. Or drunk. Or deaf. Or having a mental breakdown. Or none of those and just resisting. 

But none of those warrant a death sentence. There is a better way to handle the situation and far too often it's not. You don't get to use deadly force with a "what if" situation. 

I know we keep hearing that the protests are tiresome and why all the BLM and everything, but then it's just another day when we watch a video like this. Something has to be done. 

 
Reading on Twitter that the guy who was shot has a history of gun-related offenses and has a current arrest warrant for sexual assault and domestic violence. 

If the cops knew who he was, it might at least help explain the aggressive attitude. And there’s probably a pretty good chance that there was a gun in the vehicle.
pretty lengthy rap sheet, many of which are violent/felonious offenses. If there was a gun in the vehicle, this is a justified shoot. Unfortunately, I don't think it matters at this point, and Kenosha is going to have some long nights for awhile.

 
pretty lengthy rap sheet, many of which are violent/felonious offenses. If there was a gun in the vehicle, this is a justified shoot. Unfortunately, I don't think it matters at this point, and Kenosha is going to have some long nights for awhile.
For the bolded -- Does. Not. Matter.

And no, even if there was a gun in the vehicle, it is not a justified shoot. The police are not out there to execute citizens. That's what trials and sentences are for. Deadly force should only be used as a last resort when they are in imminent danger of losing their life.  There was nothing justified about that shooting.

 
For the bolded -- Does. Not. Matter.

And no, even if there was a gun in the vehicle, it is not a justified shoot. The police are not out there to execute citizens. That's what trials and sentences are for. Deadly force should only be used as a last resort when they are in imminent danger of losing their life.  There was nothing justified about that shooting.
It does not matter, I agree - I am arguing that there is a higher likelihood that Jacob Blake was reaching for a firearm due to his history, as opposed to someone who has never been arrested before.

Yes, it is a justified shooting if the officer in question saw Jacob Blake grab a gun. If he did, he would be considered an imminent threat capable of causing death or great bodily harm.  The response by the officer would be considered objectively reasonable and proportional. You can look up use of force policy. As I said, and has been argued in case law, the fact that his back was to officers DOES NOT MATTER.

 
It does not matter, I agree - I am arguing that there is a higher likelihood that Jacob Blake was reaching for a firearm due to his history, as opposed to someone who has never been arrested before.

Yes, it is a justified shooting if the officer in question saw Jacob Blake grab a gun. If he did, he would be considered an imminent threat capable of causing death or great bodily harm.  The response by the officer would be considered objectively reasonable and proportional. You can look up use of force policy. As I said, and has been argued in case law, the fact that his back was to officers DOES NOT MATTER.
Fair enough on both points.

I'll just say I didn't get the same impression from your first post that I quoted. Grabbing a gun is different than there just being a gun in the vehicle.

 
We can wait to train all policemen to be more racially sensitive, restructure policy departments, etc.  Or we can improve training for Policemen to better de-escalate situations like this one WHILE at the same time encouraging all people to follow the commands of law enforcement officials.

Black Lives Matter, and there's no single better thing black folks, white folks, or any colored folks can do when engaged with the police, than to comply in tense situations.  When guns are drawn, or could it, it's not the time to act like a badass.  If you do, you're taking a risk with your life that may not end up the way you want it to.  Partly due to poor decisions on your part, maybe partly due to poor training for officers, or a number of other issues.  But defuse the situation. Comply, and you're almost guaranteed to have a better outcome than if you resist.

There's far to much abuse of power by police, absurd uses of force, powertrips, and yes racism, in addition to poor police tactics, and the list goes on.  Continue to expose those, highlight them, get them resolved.  But in the meantime, comply.  And if you don't know you have a non-zero chance of getting shot/killed if the situation doesn't go your way.
I’m pretty on board with your opinion, but what do you do with the guy standing in his yard approached by police asking him what he’s doing there. Complying in some situations means giving up your rights, and I’m not for that. 

 
Another police killing in Lafayette, LA -- Trayford Pellerin.

Shot 11 times.  More on the story

The man had a knife and was clearly not well.  Reports now that he was suffering from a mental illness crisis. The police followed him on foot for half a mile as he continued to walk away from them. And still, he did not deserve to be executed like that with 11 shots with all those officers around. 

There HAS to be a better way to control these situations.

 
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I’m pretty on board with your opinion, but what do you do with the guy standing in his yard approached by police asking him what he’s doing there. Complying in some situations means giving up your rights, and I’m not for that. 
Agree...I think the...just comply argument works and all...but at the same time when you have complied time after time after time and are met with hostility...it becomes harder to do so.

In addition...we continue as a society to put the onus on the public vs the police in that situation.  It shouldn't be up to the public to be the only ones who need to change their ways.  To be the good guys in this...police seemingly escalate many of these situations having guns drawn before there is even a threat in the first place.

 
As to the bolded, I'm sorry but I expect trained officers to be able to "defuse the situation", not citizens that aren't typically in that situation.

That guy could have been autistic. Or high. Or drunk. Or deaf. Or having a mental breakdown. Or none of those and just resisting. 

But none of those warrant a death sentence. There is a better way to handle the situation and far too often it's not. You don't get to use deadly force with a "what if" situation. 

I know we keep hearing that the protests are tiresome and why all the BLM and everything, but then it's just another day when we watch a video like this. Something has to be done. 
Whether the guy knows it or not he is in a life or death situation at that moment, as are the cops.  The woman knows it, you can tell she’s beside herself scared, so why is the guy acting like he is?  

The cops may have suspicions, but in that moment they have to be worrried he is refusing their commands because he means them harm.  Maybe he’s going to the car to retrieve a weapon...that is certainly possible, no?  So the man is escalating the crisis to the point where anything can happen.  That didn’t have to happen here.

Im not naive enough to say that if he cooperated he wouldn’t even be killed or hurt.  What I’m saying is compliance dramatically lowers the odds.  
 

When guns are drawn, it’s not the time to make a statement.  It’s time to live another day.

 
I agree leaders should not make comments before facts are all out (that got Obama in trouble as well in the past).

However...if he was reaching for a gun under the seat...its justified?  Seems like an after the fact justification.  Not knowing what he is reaching for shouldn't be the standard for deadly force IMO.
When guns are drawn, commands are being ignored, a guy brazenly (seemingly) is moving towards a car where a weapon may be hidden, it becomes a judgment call by the police whose lives may be in danger.  That’s what the guys actions did here.  In a completely just world he doesn’t deserve to die if he was reaching for his insurance and registration, but good lord his actions showed incredible disregard for the seriousness of the situation he was in.  
 

 
I agree leaders should not make comments before facts are all out (that got Obama in trouble as well in the past).

However...if he was reaching for a gun under the seat...its justified?  Seems like an after the fact justification.  Not knowing what he is reaching for shouldn't be the standard for deadly force IMO.
If they told him to stop, and if he continued to reach under the seat for something that could have very likely been a gun (especially knowing his history), then yes, it was justified.  Hell, for all we know, he might have even threatened to shoot the cops on his way to the car.

But again, shame on these cops for not taking him to the ground beforehand so that he never had the chance.  I did read somewhere this morning that they'd tazed him beforehand and that he just got up and kept walking to the car.  But I don't know if that's true or not.

 
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Man may need to have his leg amputated after K9n unit bite despite complying

This is horrendous. "Just comply and you don't have anything to worry about", right?
That’s terrible and there likely need to be someone fired for that and a successful lawsuit won on that guys behalf.  Terrible training and behavior if the story is true.

look, I’m not guaranteeing a good outcome if you comply.  Life is what it is - a gamble everyday you wake up that nothing terrible will happen to you.  If you’re a minority, many of the odds that something bad will happen go up just because of that and anything we can do as a society to make that not be the case we should do and it’s a national shame that it’s the reality.

That being said, any color person in a standoff with police is in a crapshoot about how it will turn out.  A persons role is to minimize the chances of bad things happening and live to fight another day.  I’m not guaranteeing compliance will get you off Scott free , but it gives you the best odds.

We should continue to push our cops to be the best trained folks out there, but at the same time we should encourage people to act responsibly in the face of serious threats.  Acting responsibly is to be compliant with the police....the more dangerous the situation, the more the compliance.

will that guarantee happy outcomes 100% of the time? No.  We live in a world without guardrails for everything and bad stuff happens to good people all the time.  Drunk drivers kill innocent folks, murderers do the same...we don’t have a guarantee of a safe life, but we can live life to optimize the odds for us and our loved ones as we roll the dice every day.

ETA: Spelling issues from phone.

 
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That’s terrible and there likely need to be someone fired for that and a successful lawsuit won on that guys behalf.  Terrible training and behavior if the story is true.

look, I’m not guaranteeing a good outcome if you comply.  Life is what it is - a gamble everyday you wake up that nothing terrible will happen to you.  If you’re a minority, many of the odds that something bad will happen go up just because of that and anything we can do as a society to make that not be the case we should do and it’s a national shame that it’s the reality.

That being said, and color person in a standoff with police is in a crapshoot about how it will turn out.  A persons role is to minimize the chances of bad things happening and live to fight another day.  I’m not guaranteeing compliance will get you off Scott free , but it gives you the best odds.

We should continue to push our cops to be the best trained folks out there, but at the same time we should encourage people to act responsibly in the face of serious threats.  Acting responsibly is to be compliant with the police....the more dangerous the situation, the more the compliance.

will that guarantee happy outcomes 100% of the time? No.  We love in a world without guardrails for everything and bad stuff happens to good people all the time.  Drunk drivers kill innocent folks, mirderers do the same...we don’t have a guarantee of a safe life, but we can love life to optimize the odds for us and our loved ones as we roll the dice every day.
But we don't.  And enough is enough.

Training to be a police officer can be as little as 3-4 months.  The responsibility to not escalate and not kill citizens/suspects falls on police officers.  In this country, ~1000 people die per year at the hands of police officers.  In other countries, that number has been in the single digits.  We disproportionately use lethal force during police encounters.  It's not enough to expect everyone to act responsibly and be compliant with the police and hope it all goes well.  When you are potentially encountering people that aren't able to do so for various reasons, the ability to use lethal force needs to be limited compared to what it is now because the judgment being shown time and time again results in dead people. 

 
When guns are drawn, commands are being ignored, a guy brazenly (seemingly) is moving towards a car where a weapon may be hidden, it becomes a judgment call by the police whose lives may be in danger.  That’s what the guys actions did here.  In a completely just world he doesn’t deserve to die if he was reaching for his insurance and registration, but good lord his actions showed incredible disregard for the seriousness of the situation he was in.  
 
But commands being ignored...should that be the reason to draw deadly weapons?  Because that escalates the situation.  That is my point.

 
If they told him to stop, and if he continued to reach under the seat for something that could have very likely been a gun (especially knowing his history), then yes, it was justified.  Hell, for all we know, he might have even threatened to shoot the cops on his way to the car.

But again, shame on these cops for not taking him to the ground beforehand so that he never had the chance.  I did read somewhere this morning that they'd tazed him beforehand and that he just got up and kept walking to the car.  But I don't know if that's true or not.
Sorry...I still don't buy into...well they told him to stop...so shooting him is justified.  More may come out...but to me, that suspicion he may reach for something is not an authorization of deadly force.  Or at least shouldn't be.

 
Yup.  He's not dead.

Now sue the cops/city and charge the K9 officer with assault.  Let the officer spend time in jail.  Hopefully this guy can continue to get his story out and help make some change since he's not having dirt shoveled over him now.
Seriously?  "At least he's not dead?"

 
More may come out...but to me, that suspicion he may reach for something is not an authorization of deadly force.  Or at least shouldn't be.
I agree, the suspicion that he may reach for something isn't justification.  But if he DID actually reach for something, then yes, it is.

 
But commands being ignored...should that be the reason to draw deadly weapons?  Because that escalates the situation.  That is my point.
The time to ask that question is after the guns are put away.  It's a good question.  What caused them to draw guns?  What was the purpose of the officer visit?  What happened before all this?  What did they know about the guy?  What was he saying? What did cops say?  

All good things to investigate, but if you're the guy in the situation and cops have guns drawn on you, it's not the time to ignore commands.  It's time to comply.  Even then you're not guaranteed a good outcome, but it dramatically increases your odds.

If Black Lives Matter, this should be one of the most salient points to make to keep folks safe.  It's true for people of any color too.  When you're in an encounter with police, do not ignore their commands, do not escalate the situation.  This shouldn't be controversial in the least, and the more intense the standoff becomes, the more important this point is.

Police need better training, but so apparently do people engaging with police.

 
I dont think the cops did anything wrong.  This should be a textbook lesson to civilians that you have to obey a cops orders.  Right or wrong, sort it out later but in real time if a cop tells you to hop on one leg and sing a Cher song you best hop on one leg and start singing

 
It’s actually pretty easy to sit still and freeze when a weapon is pointed at you. 
Everyone isn’t wired the same way. I have had officers draw weapons on me a few times, I have always been able to remain calm. However on one of those occasions a friend in the group of us that had several officers pointing their guns at us didn’t remain calm, he became angry and belligerent (he had a right to because the officers were in the wrong) fortunately for everyone involved the rest of us were able to yell at him to get his #### together before things got ugly for us.

 
The time to ask that question is after the guns are put away.  It's a good question.  What caused them to draw guns?  What was the purpose of the officer visit?  What happened before all this?  What did they know about the guy?  What was he saying? What did cops say?  

All good things to investigate, but if you're the guy in the situation and cops have guns drawn on you, it's not the time to ignore commands.  It's time to comply.  Even then you're not guaranteed a good outcome, but it dramatically increases your odds.

If Black Lives Matter, this should be one of the most salient points to make to keep folks safe.  It's true for people of any color too.  When you're in an encounter with police, do not ignore their commands, do not escalate the situation.  This shouldn't be controversial in the least, and the more intense the standoff becomes, the more important this point is.

Police need better training, but so apparently do people engaging with police.
Id continue to say...the onus for better training is still on the police...the ones in charge of protecting and serving us...the ones who have deadly weapons strapped to their side.

Yes...I teach my kids to comply (my son who is learning to drive).  That he should always respond clearly and listen to instructions.  But he also has that luxury more that others because of the color of our skin.

The problem is too often we are in this...just do as your told...deal with wrongdoings later...and when we see wrongdoings go unpunished time and time again...that makes it harder to do IMO.

 

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