Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
In The Zone

Another killing at the hands of the Police

Recommended Posts

Mom calls police to help take her out of control 13 year old son with autism to the hospital. Cops shoot him 11 times. 
 

Story with video

 

Edited by Ilov80s

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More wise words...this time from Charles Barkley and Shaq on the Breonna Taylor case.

 

"I don't think this one was like George Floyd or Ahmaud Arbery and things like that," Barkley began. "I feel sad that this young lady lost her life. I think this one was — the no-knock warrant is something we need to get rid of ... across the board. But I am worried to lump all these situations in together."

He continued, "And I just feel bad that the young lady lost her life. But we do have to take into account that her boyfriend shot at the cops and shot a cop. So like I say, even though I am really sorry she lost her life, I just don't think we can put this in the same situation as George Floyd or Ahmaud Arbery."

Barkley found some agreement from his co-hosts, including Shaquille O’Neal:

"I have to agree with Charles, this one is sort of lumped in," O'Neal said. "You have to get a warrant signed and some states do allow no-knock warrants. And everyone was asking for murder charges. When you talk about murder, you have to show intent. A homicide occurred and we're sorry a homicide occurred. When you have a warrant signed by the judge, you are doing your job, and I would imagine that you would fire back."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/charles-barkley-shaquille-o-neil-draw-backlash-for-pushing-back-on-breonna-taylor-outrage/ar-BB19pc7R?li=BBorjTa&ocid=mailsignout

  • Like 2
  • Love 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More good stuff from Chuck.*  If only the Democrat politicians had the stones to speak truth like he does.

"We really have to be careful, you know, I hear these fools talking on TV about "Defund the Police"...we need police reform and prison reform...[but] we need to just stop all that defund and abolish the cops crap."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/charles-barkley-shaquille-o-neil-draw-backlash-for-pushing-back-on-breonna-taylor-outrage/ar-BB19pc7R?li=BBorjTa&ocid=mailsignout

* transcripted from video

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's also time to concurrently discuss the amount of consideration and respect in this country for a coexisting minority: the disabled community.  Covid-19 has clarified for everyone in the disability community about how much their neighbors value their lives (some in a good way, some not so much.)  Statistics on police killings are bringing some things to light, as well, on the issue of whether disabled lives matter.

Nearly half of all of those killed by police - of any race - are disabled.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Police shootings are a leading cause of death for young American men, new research shows

Quote

Among men of all races, ages 25 to 29, police killings are the sixth-leading cause of death, according to a study led by Frank Edwards of Rutgers University, with a total annual mortality risk of 1.8 deaths per 100,000 people. Accidental death, a category that includes automotive accidents and drug overdoses, was the biggest cause at 76.6 deaths per 100,000, and followed by suicide (26.7), other homicides (22.0), heart disease (7.0), and cancer (6.3).

The data used in this study do not differentiate between police killings that were later determined to be justified and those that were not. FBI data, which is widely acknowledged to be incomplete, shows that 400 to 500 homicides each year are determined to be justified, which is defined as “the killing of a felon by a law enforcement officer in the line of duty.” Those deaths represent about half of the roughly 1,000 annual police killings that independent tallies, including those by The Washington Post and The Guardian, have found.

For a black man, the risk of being killed by a police officer is about 2.5 times higher than that of a white man. “Our models predict that about 1 in 1,000 black men and boys will be killed by police over the life course,” the authors write.

Police killings account for 1.6 percent of all deaths of black men age 20 to 24, the study found. Among white men, police are responsible for 0.5 percent of all deaths in that age group. A 40-year-old black man has about the same risk of being killed by a police officer as a 20-year-old white man.

Because no reliable federal data exists for police killings, the authors turned to the data compiled by Fatal Encounters, a project that uses news reports, public records requests and crowdsourced information to tally officer-involved fatalities. The authors note that Fatal Encounters was “endorsed as a sound source of data” by the federal Bureau of Justice Statistics in a 2016 report, but they warn that the data likely undercounts the number of officer-involved killings: “If any death is not covered by news organizations or is not documented in searchable public records,” they note, “it will not appear in the data.”

The study excludes police-involved deaths determined to be a suicide, the result of a car accident or an accident, like an overdose or fall.

Police killings are far more common in the United States than in other advanced democracies. That’s partly because the U.S. has a much higher homicide rate — “25.2 times higher” — than economically similar countries, according to a 2016 study. One of the prime drivers of that difference, research shows, is the nation’s high rate of gun ownership: Americans make up 4 percent of the global population but own nearly half the guns in the world. :shock:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking over that information I agree that it’s a shame there are that many guns in the US. Definitely depressing to read that. 

That said, the headline is a little misleading especially when it lumps so many different categories together in order to list death by police shooting as the sixth leading cause of death among 25-29 year olds. Why is this category listed separately and many others aren’t? No different than if it said death by police shooting is the second leading cause of death among 25-29 year olds after all deaths not related to police shootings. 

There are 12 million males between the ages of 25-29 in the US. Based on the numbers given above, that would equate to 210 males between the ages of 25-29 involved in a police shooting death. Definitely a much higher number than I’d like to see but a small number compared to the overall number. I’d also be curious how many of those 210 were justified vs  non-justified  (and if I had to guess the non-justified would be a much smaller number of the two). 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Witz said:

Looking over that information I agree that it’s a shame there are that many guns in the US. Definitely depressing to read that. 

That said, the headline is a little misleading especially when it lumps so many different categories together in order to list death by police shooting as the sixth leading cause of death among 25-29 year olds. Why is this category listed separately and many others aren’t? No different than if it said death by police shooting is the second leading cause of death among 25-29 year olds after all deaths not related to police shootings. 

There are 12 million males between the ages of 25-29 in the US. Based on the numbers given above, that would equate to 210 males between the ages of 25-29 involved in a police shooting death. Definitely a much higher number than I’d like to see but a small number compared to the overall number. I’d also be curious how many of those 210 were justified vs  non-justified  (and if I had to guess the non-justified would be a much smaller number of the two). 

 

Highly misleading reporting and use of stats to intentionally stir-up irrationale hatred and fear of police.  So irresponsible.  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Stoneworker said:

More good stuff from Chuck.*  If only the Democrat politicians had the stones to speak truth like he does.

"We really have to be careful, you know, I hear these fools talking on TV about "Defund the Police"...we need police reform and prison reform...[but] we need to just stop all that defund and abolish the cops crap."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/charles-barkley-shaquille-o-neil-draw-backlash-for-pushing-back-on-breonna-taylor-outrage/ar-BB19pc7R?li=BBorjTa&ocid=mailsignout

* transcripted from video

Sounds like Joe Biden.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, AAABatteries said:

I’ll never understand the infatuation with guns.

The UK during its control of the American colonies outlawed firearms and made it impossible for colonists to defend themselves against the British Army who were abusing their power.

Henceforth, the US Constitution has a provision that doesn't allow for the outlawing of arms among its citizenry.

This was put in place as a check and balance against tyranny of government.

It has stood as a foundation of the US for over 200 years.  In that time, gun manufacturers have made hundreds of millions of guns and sold them to the US citizens.  Some people have embraced them as a way to ensure protection against criminals and governments alike.  They keep firearms to hunt and enjoy for sport as well as a deterrent to criminal activity on their property.

I think it is a good thing on one hand as no single person will ever be in complete power over this country and no country will even attempt an invasion in the US.  On the other hand, we have more violent gun deaths in this country as a result, and that is terrible.  However, we cannot turn back time, so it is best to deal with reality.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

Sounds like Joe Biden.

But not like Progressives, the BLM movement and many others at the local level that form a large faction of the Democrats and to whom Biden often panders.

Who does support defunding the police?

There are some high-profile Democrats who support a reduction in funding.

New York Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is among the proponents of defunding police departments and reinvesting the money in local communities.

The Los Angeles mayor, Eric Garcetti, has taken $150m from the police department budget to spend on other local programmes.

In other cities, such as Washington DC, San Francisco and Baltimore, local policymakers have declared their support for some form of defunding.

And in Minneapolis, the city council has pledged to dismantle the entire police department, although it's not yet clear what would replace it.

The Black Lives Matter movement has begun a petition to defund the police, saying: "We call for a national defunding of police. We demand investment in our communities and the resources to ensure Black people not only survive, but thrive."

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-53997196

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, AAABatteries said:

I’ll never understand the infatuation with guns.

Is that a gun in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So we had a grand jury here in Omaha where the DA originally refused to charge an individual who had shot and killed a protestor during a peaceful protest/riot depending on your viewpoint.  A special prosecutor was brought in and convened a grand jury that indicted the shooter of 4 counts.  The shooter had left the state after originally being told the DA was not pressing charges.  After the indictments the shooter killed himself.  However before that he had been indicted on 4 counts.  

In the case of Breonna Taylor (different state, different circumstances admittedly) the grand jury did not come back with the indictments the protestors wanted and violence ensued.

Honestly No Justice, No Peace means absolutely nothing.  Those uttering that phrase want blood regardless of evidence - why not just call out No Blood, No Peace or No Lynching, No Peace.  It would be far more honest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Stoneworker said:

But not like Progressives, the BLM movement and many others at the local level that form a large faction of the Democrats and to whom Biden often panders.

Who does support defunding the police?

There are some high-profile Democrats who support a reduction in funding.

New York Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is among the proponents of defunding police departments and reinvesting the money in local communities.

The Los Angeles mayor, Eric Garcetti, has taken $150m from the police department budget to spend on other local programmes.

In other cities, such as Washington DC, San Francisco and Baltimore, local policymakers have declared their support for some form of defunding.

And in Minneapolis, the city council has pledged to dismantle the entire police department, although it's not yet clear what would replace it.

The Black Lives Matter movement has begun a petition to defund the police, saying: "We call for a national defunding of police. We demand investment in our communities and the resources to ensure Black people not only survive, but thrive."

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-53997196

Abolishing the police completely is a radical, far left position that isn’t supported by the vast majority liberals. A larger percentage would like to see more money go to programs that might have community members and mental health workers handle some duties that the police seem to struggle with.  
 

Trust me, Minneapolis will still have policemen.  Right-wingers are running with this to scare moderates into voting Republican. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Juxtatarot said:

Abolishing the police completely is a radical, far left position that isn’t supported by the vast majority liberals. A larger percentage would like to see more money go to programs that might have community members and mental health workers handle some duties that the police seem to struggle with.  
 

Trust me, Minneapolis will still have policemen.  Right-wingers are running with this to scare moderates into voting Republican. 

Shaq and Charles Barkley are right-wingers trying to scare moderates into voting Republican? Ok.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Stoneworker said:

Shaq and Charles Barkley are right-wingers trying to scare moderates into voting Republican? Ok.

Not all all.  Shaq and Barkley seem to be moderates on this issue like Joe Biden and me.

Edited by Juxtatarot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

Not all all.  Shaq and Barkley seem to be moderates on this issue like Joe Biden and me.

The city councilwoman in my urban district recently filed a bill to literally abolish the existing police department and replace it with a "peace force."

So your attempts to dismiss the defunding police idea as an imaginary "right wing" conspiracy or something confined to "radical, far leftists" simply does not match with very real actions being taken in very real American cities.

I wish the Joe Biden moderates luck on squashing the defunders, but they are clearly controlling the public narrative. And the more it is controlled by them, the more traction it will gain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Stoneworker said:

The city councilwoman in my urban district recently filed a bill to literally abolish the existing police department and replace it with a "peace force."

So your attempts to dismiss the defunding police idea as an imaginary "right wing" conspiracy or something confined to "radical, far leftists" simply does not match with very real actions being taken in very real American cities.

I wish the Joe Biden moderates luck on squashing the defunders, but they are clearly controlling the public narrative. And the more it is controlled by them, the more traction it will gain.

When the first major city abolishes a police department resulting in lawlessness, I’ll admit you were right but, honestly, you don’t need to fear this. It’s not going to happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jayrod said:

The UK during its control of the American colonies outlawed firearms and made it impossible for colonists to defend themselves against the British Army who were abusing their power.

Henceforth, the US Constitution has a provision that doesn't allow for the outlawing of arms among its citizenry.

This was put in place as a check and balance against tyranny of government.

It has stood as a foundation of the US for over 200 years.  In that time, gun manufacturers have made hundreds of millions of guns and sold them to the US citizens.  Some people have embraced them as a way to ensure protection against criminals and governments alike.  They keep firearms to hunt and enjoy for sport as well as a deterrent to criminal activity on their property.

I think it is a good thing on one hand as no single person will ever be in complete power over this country and no country will even attempt an invasion in the US.  On the other hand, we have more violent gun deaths in this country as a result, and that is terrible.  However, we cannot turn back time, so it is best to deal with reality.

I understand the history - I’m saying I don’t get it - any of it - sports, collecting, shooting them, the idea that you are protecting yourself against the government.  And I live in a county and in particular in a neighborhood where most people are armed to a teeth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Long video showing the death of George Floyd including a compilation of body cam and other videos. It is a defense of the officers.  I’d be interested in getting your non-emotional responses to the video and whether you agree or disagree with the information being presented.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/25/2020 at 4:30 PM, Stoneworker said:

The city councilwoman in my urban district recently filed a bill to literally abolish the existing police department and replace it with a "peace force."

So your attempts to dismiss the defunding police idea as an imaginary "right wing" conspiracy or something confined to "radical, far leftists" simply does not match with very real actions being taken in very real American cities.

I wish the Joe Biden moderates luck on squashing the defunders, but they are clearly controlling the public narrative. And the more it is controlled by them, the more traction it will gain.

From the protester perspective, when they say defund, they mean defund.  And moderate Democrats have to tap dance around that when they talk about it as they do not want to anger a large part of their base.  Polls show only about 18% of voters support defunding the police, but if you translate to just Democrats it is in the 30-40% range.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

From the protester perspective, when they say defund, they mean defund.  And moderate Democrats have to tap dance around that when they talk about it as they do not want to anger a large part of their base.  Polls show only about 18% of voters support defunding the police, but if you translate to just Democrats it is in the 30-40% range.  

I remember when they booed the Minneapolis mayor down the street. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Juxtatarot said:

Long video showing the death of George Floyd including a compilation of body cam and other videos. It is a defense of the officers.  I’d be interested in getting your non-emotional responses to the video and whether you agree or disagree with the information being presented.

Parts of that were difficult to watch.  However, it does shed a lot of light on the whole situation, IMO, and the man presenting the video makes a lot of good points.

1)  I think it was clear that he was not in a normal state of mind early on.  The officers clearly suspected the same as they kept asking if he was on something.  Throughout the interaction, there were things they did well with that information and others they did not.  When it became clear how agitated he was getting trying to get him into the car, they need to just stop, sit him back down where he was under better control and calmer (he was already handcuffed) and either get another transport vehicle or await the ambulance coming.

2)  I found it a little disconcerting how quickly the very first officer had his gun drawn on him when he was suspected of using a fake $20 bill and the officer didn't even announce what was going on.

3)  Despite this being a racially influential event, there was very little in that interaction that would even be remotely attributable to race, other than the very initial interaction with guns drawn.  Beyond that, it seemed reasonable.

4)  The officers did seem to follow their training.  That's not their fault to a point.

5)  The early part of the interaction with him saying a lot of what he was saying earlier (I can't breathe, it all hurts, etc.) gives the officers a pass from that standpoint. 

6)  However, all of that said, the biggest issue was when multiple citizens around them are telling the officers he was unresponsive and begging to check for a pulse and they did not respond to that.  That is where they were derelict in their duties more than anything else.  They had more than enough information at that time, especially with a firefighter telling them repeatedly.

 

It's an enlightening video.  I find a lot more of what they did reasonable and appropriate in the full context.  I do still think they are at fault for his death and that he didn't need to die that day, even though it was not in a malicious manner whatsoever.  It's unfortunate and a lot of what happened was due to improper training, IMO.  Tragic.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 10/2/2020 at 10:32 AM, gianmarco said:

Parts of that were difficult to watch.  However, it does shed a lot of light on the whole situation, IMO, and the man presenting the video makes a lot of good points.  Yes & Yes

1)  I think it was clear that he was not in a normal state of mind early on.  The officers clearly suspected the same as they kept asking if he was on something.  Throughout the interaction, there were things they did well with that information and others they did not.  When it became clear how agitated he was getting trying to get him into the car, they need to just stop, sit him back down where he was under better control and calmer (he was already handcuffed) and either get another transport vehicle or await the ambulance coming.

2)  I found it a little disconcerting how quickly the very first officer had his gun drawn on him when he was suspected of using a fake $20 bill and the officer didn't even announce what was going on.  Me too, but when you have a suspect that is in a car, refusing to show their hands, with a arm hidden where there could be a weapon...seems like the right immediate response unless the officer takes extreme risk.

3)  Despite this being a racially influential event, there was very little in that interaction that would even be remotely attributable to race, other than the very initial interaction with guns drawn.  Beyond that, it seemed reasonable.  Yes, this is mind blowing given the destruction and internal hate this has driven over the last few months.

4)  The officers did seem to follow their training.  Yes  That's not their fault to a point. 

5)  The early part of the interaction with him saying a lot of what he was saying earlier (I can't breathe, it all hurts, etc.) gives the officers a pass from that standpoint.  Yes

6)  However, all of that said, the biggest issue was when multiple citizens around them are telling the officers he was unresponsive and begging to check for a pulse and they did not respond to that.  That is where they were derelict in their duties more than anything else.  They had more than enough information at that time, especially with a firefighter telling them repeatedly.  Mostly agree.  I think all of this is easy to evaluate in hindsight knowing how critical his condition was (the officers dont have the benefit of the medical report that indicated his lungs were 3x normal size and he had lethal doses of drugs).  I'd guess Chauvin thought he finally calmed down vs died.  Of course that difference is huge and this is the critical point of the encounter.  Would Floyd have died if they just let him flop around in perpetuity, how much was Chauvin actions contributing factors...I don't know but seems like there has to be a better way / training to handle, the fact that he was cuffed to me is a huge factor into why the knee to the neck was not necessary, particularly for that long.  And especially when bystanders were making it abundantly clear he was un-responsive.  All that said, I'd bet on acquittal with the evidence we have.

7).  As indicated at the end of the video, why were all the facts withheld by the prosecution while the country burned (not that it would have changed anything, it would not have).

It's an enlightening video.  I find a lot more of what they did reasonable and appropriate in the full context.  I do still think they are at fault for his death and that he didn't need to die that day, even though it was not in a malicious manner whatsoever.  It's unfortunate and a lot of what happened was due to improper training, IMO.  Tragic.

My thoughts layered on yours....good summary.

Edited by djmich

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/25/2020 at 4:51 PM, AAABatteries said:

I understand the history - I’m saying I don’t get it - any of it - sports, collecting, shooting them, the idea that you are protecting yourself against the government.  And I live in a county and in particular in a neighborhood where most people are armed to a teeth.

Oh, well, as far as personal preferences, that is another whole issue.  I don't get a lot of things that people are obsessed with or adamant about.  There is no accounting for personal tastes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mcintyre1 said:

Per witnesses/family, an older white man was "beating the hell out of his wife" inside the convenience store, Johnathan Price intervened, the altercation went outside. When police arrived, Price raised his hands and began trying to explain the situation when the police tased him. The convulsions from the electric shock were "perceived as a threat" and the police then killed him. 

Price had also recently posted to social media defending police amid the recent events in the country.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, mcintyre1 said:
1 hour ago, mcintyre1 said:

Per witnesses/family, an older white man was "beating the hell out of his wife" inside the convenience store, Johnathan Price intervened, the altercation went outside. When police arrived, Price raised his hands and began trying to explain the situation when the police tased him. The convulsions from the electric shock were "perceived as a threat" and the police then killed him. 

Price had also recently posted to social media defending police amid the recent events in the country.

It was this black man's fault for, well being black.  He should know better in America!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, mcintyre1 said:

Price had also recently posted to social media defending police amid the recent events in the country.

From June:

"There were times i should have been detained for speeding, outstanding citations, out dated registration, dozing off at a red light before making it to my garage downtown Dallas after a lonnng night out i’ve passed a sobriety test after leaving a bar in Wylie, Texas by 2 white cops and still let me drive to where I was headed, and by the way they consider Wylie, Texas to be VERY racist I’ve never got that kind of ENERGY from the po-po

 

Not saying black lives don’t matter, but don’t forget about your own, or your experiences through growth / “waking up”."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, mcintyre1 said:

Per witnesses/family, an older white man was "beating the hell out of his wife" inside the convenience store, Johnathan Price intervened, the altercation went outside. When police arrived, Price raised his hands and began trying to explain the situation when the police tased him. The convulsions from the electric shock were "perceived as a threat" and the police then killed him. 

Price had also recently posted to social media defending police amid the recent events in the country.

Man, almost all of these stories are horrible but if that's how things played out then that's just brutal.

 

*I'm not implying your version is wrong - I just like waiting on these because so often the initial reports are wrong.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, mcintyre1 said:

Very tragic by the early reports . Hopefully they punish the domestic abuser as well as the officer to the full extent that of the law. Horrible story 

Edited by HellToupee
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wolfe City officer charged with murder in fatal shooting of Jonathan Price

Quote

At approximately 8:24 p.m. on Oct. 3, 2020, Wolfe City Police Officer Shaun Lucas responded to a disturbance call at the 100 block of Santa Fe Street for a possible fight in progress.

Officer Lucas made contact with a man, later identified as 31-year-old Jonathan Price, who was reportedly involved in the disturbance. Officer Lucas attempted to detain Price, who resisted in a non-threatening posture and began walking away. Officer Lucas deployed his TASER, followed by discharging his service weapon striking Price. EMS was notified and Price was transported to Hunt Regional Hospital, where he later died.

The preliminary investigation indicates that the actions of Officer Lucas were not objectionably reasonable.

The Texas Rangers have charged Officer Lucas with the offense of Murder and booked him into the Hunt County Jail. This investigation is being conducted by the Texas Rangers, with the cooperation of the Wolfe City Police Department and the Hunt County District Attorney’s Office.

No additional information is being released at this time.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, mcintyre1 said:

I don't want to over-simply things but if this happens more often where they are (rightly) charge and they are (rightly) convicted then over time I would expect the problem to go down*.  Mix that in with better training and full-time body cams and I think we begin seeing a difference.

 

*I know nothing about this specific incident and whether charging and ultimately convicting would be the just thing.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

NYTimes with details of the death of Michael Reinoehl, the Antifa activist suspected of killing a right-wing Proud Boy member in Portland.

Quote

‘Straight to Gunshots’: How a U.S. Task Force Killed an Antifa Activist

New accounts from the scene raise questions about whether Michael Reinoehl, suspected of killing a far-right Trump supporter, pulled out a gun before officers fatally shot him.

Michael Reinoehl was on the run.

A few days after a shooting left a far-right Trump supporter dead on the streets of Portland, Ore., Mr. Reinoehl, an antifa activist who had been named in the news media as a focus of the investigation, feared that vigilantes were after him, not to mention the police. Even some of his close friends did not know where he was.

But the authorities knew.

On Sept. 3, about 120 miles north of Portland, Mr. Reinoehl was getting into his Volkswagen station wagon when a pair of unmarked sport utility vehicles roared through the quiet streets, screeching to a halt just in front of his bumper. Members of a U.S. Marshals task force jumped out and unleashed a hail of bullets that shattered windows, whizzed past bystanders and left Mr. Reinoehl dead in the street.

Attorney General William P. Barr trumpeted the operation as a “significant accomplishment” that removed a “violent agitator.” The officers had opened fire, he said, when Mr. Reinoehl “attempted to escape arrest” and “produced a firearm” during the encounter. But a reconstruction of what happened that night, based on the accounts of people who witnessed the confrontation and the preliminary findings of investigators, produces a much different picture — one that raises questions about whether law enforcement officers made any serious attempt to arrest Mr. Reinoehl before killing him.

In interviews with 22 people who were near the scene, all but one said they did not hear officers identify themselves or give any commands before opening fire. In their official statements, not yet made public, the officers offered differing accounts of whether they saw Mr. Reinoehl with a weapon. One told investigators he thought he saw Mr. Reinoehl raise a gun inside the vehicle before the firing began, but two others said they did not.

Mr. Reinoehl did have a .380-caliber handgun on him when he was killed, according to the county sheriff’s team that is running a criminal homicide investigation into Mr. Reinoehl’s death. But the weapon was found in his pocket.

An AR-style rifle was found apparently untouched in a bag in his car.

Five eyewitnesses said in interviews that the gunfire began the instant the vehicles arrived. None of them saw Mr. Reinoehl holding a weapon. A single shell casing of the same caliber as the handgun he was carrying was found inside his car.

Garrett Louis, who watched the shooting begin while trying to get his 8-year-old son out of the line of fire, said the officers arrived with such speed and violence that he initially assumed they were drug dealers gunning down a foe — until he saw their law enforcement vests.

“I respect cops to the utmost, but things were definitely in no way, shape or form done properly,” Mr. Louis said.

The U.S. Marshals Service declined to comment for this article, citing the pending investigation. The agency previously said that it had attempted to “peacefully arrest” Mr. Reinoehl and that he had threatened the lives of law enforcement officers.

President Trump, who has described the racial justice protests that have roiled the nation as the work of lawless criminals, praised the operation.

“This guy was a violent criminal, and the U.S. Marshals killed him,” the president told Fox News. “And I will tell you something, that’s the way it has to be. There has to be retribution when you have crime like this.”

‘That shot felt like the beginning of a war’

Mr. Reinoehl had joined protesters in Portland in the aftermath of George Floyd’s killing by the Minneapolis police in May, writing online that they were waging a necessary war with the potential to “fix everything.” He devoted himself to the Black Lives Matter movement and once touted himself as “100% ANTIFA all the way.”

Mr. Reinoehl, a 48-year-old contractor and professional snowboarder, had run into trouble with the law in June, when he was cited for driving under the influence of a controlled substance and having an unlicensed firearm in the car. Later, during the protests, the police arrested him and cited him for carrying a loaded firearm in a public place, but prosecutors dropped the charges.

When the protests against the police got underway in Portland, he carved a niche for himself providing security, watching for agitators. After a caravan of supporters of Mr. Trump arrived in Portland on Aug. 29 and began clashing with the protesters, a security camera showed Mr. Reinoehl keeping an eye on one of them — Aaron J. Danielson, a supporter of the far-right group Patriot Prayer who was walking with a can of bear repellent and an expandable baton.

Seconds later, a separate livestream video captured Mr. Danielson being shot, and The Oregonian newspaper reported later that Mr. Reinoehl was under investigation in the case. In an interview while he was in hiding that Vice News broadcast on Sept. 3, Mr. Reinoehl said he had fired in self-defense. “That shot felt like the beginning of a war,” he said.

A quiet night and a sudden raid

On the day the interview aired, officers with the U.S. Marshals’ Pacific Northwest Violent Offender Task Force met for an intelligence briefing.

The team, which included a mix of federal, state and local law enforcement agencies, already knew that Mr. Reinoehl was staying in a brick complex of apartments in Lacey, Wash. The task force had information from an informant, passed on by the Portland police, about Mr. Reinoehl’s location and possession of firearms, said Lt. Ray Brady of the Thurston County Sheriff’s Office, who leads the team investigating Mr. Reinoehl’s death.

Though the Portland police had yet to issue a warrant for Mr. Reinoehl’s arrest, the task force prepared to move in.

That evening, outside the apartment complex where the police say Mr. Reinoehl had been staying, the neighborhood was quiet.

Mr. Louis, a carpenter and former U.S. Army medic, watched his son ride his bike with his younger brother and a neighborhood friend. Around the corner, Chad Smith and two friends, Chase Cutler and Jon Chastain, were wrapping up an afternoon spent working on cars.

Mr. Reinoehl left the apartment and walked toward his Volkswagen, parked along the street roughly 100 feet away. Two officers positively identified Mr. Reinoehl, who proceeded to get into the car, said Lieutenant Brady, who shared some of the initial findings of the investigation with The New York Times. They decided to make an immediate arrest, the officers told investigators, in part to avoid a high-speed chase.

Mr. Smith said he and his friends turned their heads to the sound of a vehicle accelerating rapidly, headed southbound toward the street where Mr. Reinoehl was walking. A second law enforcement S.U.V., which had been parked across from Mr. Smith’s house, moved in with such speed that the friends thought they were witnessing a road rage incident or a gang shooting.

Mr. Smith and Mr. Cutler ran after the unmarked S.U.V.s, watching as they turned onto Mr. Reinoehl’s street, one cutting the corner and speeding over the grass.

Nate Dinguss, who according to Lieutenant Brady lived in the apartment where Mr. Reinoehl was staying, said Mr. Reinoehl was chewing a gummy worm as he approached his station wagon, with a phone in one hand and a bag in the other.

Mr. Dinguss said in an interview that officers began jumping out of the vehicles before they had come to a complete stop, and that one of them opened fire immediately, before any commands had been given. Another man who was walking his dog nearby said that a burst of about 10 gunshots began almost immediately after the S.U.V.s came to a halt, and that he did not recall hearing any commands. Mr. Louis, who was on the other side of the scene, some 140 feet from Mr. Reinoehl, also said the police opened fire immediately, without giving any warnings — as did Mr. Smith and Mr. Cutler.

“There was no, ‘Get out of the car!’ There was no, ‘Stop!’ There was no nothing. They just got out of the car and started shooting,” Mr. Louis said.

Mr. Smith described it similarly: “There was no yelling. There was no screaming. There was no altercation. It was just straight to gunshots.”

Of the 22 people interviewed by The Times who said they were near the shooting when it occurred, only one man reported hearing any shouting before the gunshots began.

That man, Quentin Gruner, whose apartment is about 75 feet away, said he was letting his dog out when he heard shouting that he thought was neighbors having a fight, followed by a popping noise.

The four officers who were riding in the S.U.V.s said in their statements to Thurston County sheriff’s investigators that they shouted “Stop! Police!” before opening fire, Lieutenant Brady said.

But the officers gave conflicting stories about what led them to begin firing. One reported that he saw Mr. Reinoehl, inside the vehicle, raise “what they perceived to be a gun,” Lieutenant Brady said. Two other officers said they only saw Mr. Reinoehl make “furtive movements” toward the center console, he said.

Lieutenant Brady said the first shots appear to have struck Mr. Reinoehl inside the vehicle, and videos of the aftermath show bullet marks in the driver’s side of the windshield. Though apparently wounded, Mr. Reinoehl began moving away from the officers on foot.

Officers continued to fire, and as Mr. Reinoehl stepped into the street from behind a nearby truck, a final burst took him down, Lieutenant Brady said. He most likely died immediately, said the Thurston County coroner, Gary Warnock.

Officers also offered conflicting accounts of those final shots. One said that Mr. Reinoehl, while in the street, pointed a gun. Other officers said that he appeared to be trying to “retrieve” one from his pants pocket.

As they searched Mr. Reinoehl’s body, officers found the gun, Lieutenant Brady said. It was still in his pocket.

The aftermath

In all, four officers fired about 30 rounds from two rifles and two handguns, Lieutenant Brady said.

A visit to the scene by a reporter, as well as videos and photos from the aftermath, showed that at least eight of the officers’ bullets struck civilian property.

Angel Romero, who lives directly adjacent to the shooting, said at least five bullets hit a brick wall and a wooden fence at his home. One traveled through an exterior wall and passed above his dog kennels and through his dining room — narrowly missing his brother before lodging in a kitchen wall. Mr. Romero’s neighbor found a smashed bullet in his backyard grass.

“They literally found ricochet bullets where my kid was,” Mr. Louis said.

Lieutenant Brady said it would be several months before lab results determined whether the shell casing found in the Volkswagen matched the handgun found in Mr. Reinoehl’s pocket, and it may never be known whether it was fired that day. There is no evidence that Mr. Reinoehl touched the rifle found in the bag in his car, the chief investigator said.

None of the officers said they saw Mr. Reinoehl fire his handgun, and investigators have found no other evidence that suggests he did. Investigators found no .380 bullets or casings outside the vehicle.

In the aftermath, some news accounts quoted witnesses describing Mr. Reinoehl firing shots. One of them, Mr. Smith, said he was misquoted. Another woman also described Mr. Reinoehl firing shots, but in another account said that she was not present when the shooting began. Mr. Cutler said he heard a pistol that he thought might have been Mr. Reinoehl’s firing first, but Lieutenant Brady said the officers fired pistols as well as rifles.

Six minutes after the shooting started, Jashon Spencer, a resident of the apartment complex, began filming a live video from the scene. In it, roughly eight and a half minutes after Mr. Reinoehl was likely killed, an officer could be seen beginning chest compressions on Mr. Reinoehl’s motionless body. They were undertaken almost perfunctorily, from a standing position, and soon ended.

TL;DR All but one witness interviewed indicated that no commands were given and the police encounter began and ended with a hail of gunfire from only the police, with several police rifle rounds hitting nearby houses.

It also seems worth highlighting that, at the time of his death, there wasn't even a warrant for Reinoehl's arrest (though it was surely, and deservedly, coming).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.