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Another killing at the hands of the Police

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7 hours ago, fantasycurse42 said:

This line of thinking is insanely flawed. I could give 100 reasons, but I'll start with one:

If the running jackass won't stop and will lead police on a chase, what else is he capable of? Hint, it isn't splitting the atom.

 lets call crimes a moving scale ...some crimes are bad ....and some are worse...the worse ones get special attention...the bad ones ...you know ...like the ones that you are able to make bail ...and you dont show up for court so they issue a warrant...they require less aggression in apprehending them lol...i know many cops who agree that most car chases are unnecessary and foolish.The cops chasing him made him an immediate danger to everyone on the roads by pursuing him over a few warrants...im not condoning him running from the cops ...hes a ######## for doing that ....but pick your poison...they knew who he was ...he was well know to the cops ...you dont think they they would have nabbed him somewhere else while walking or hanging in a bar somewhere? If he slammed into a family and killed them while being chased people would have been up in arms after they were told he was being chased over a few warrants ....this wasnt charles manson they were chasing...just a small time dirt bag petty criminal.

 

'' More than 5,000 bystanders and passengers have been killed in police car chases since 1979, and tens of thousands more were injured as officers repeatedly pursued drivers at high speeds and in hazardous conditions, often for minor infractions, a USA TODAY analysis shows. ''

 

Edited by BustedKnuckles

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18 hours ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Everyone of those cops deserves a long jail sentence. 

What a bad ### they are 8 on 1 and the one is not fighting.   If I were the one when I got out I would put a bullet in every one of them and make sure it was a painful death.    

 

They were practicing their UFC moves with the knees, such tools.

Edited by FatUncleJerryBuss

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On 3/30/2016 at 11:36 AM, JB Breakfast Club said:

I'm very interested to see the follow through as far as releasing all videos, DNA evidence, autopsy, and police documents related to the case. 

61 seconds after the police arrive, a person is dead. 

Federal authorities said there are not sufficient grounds for bringing charges of civil rights violations against two Minneapolis police officers who fatally shot Jamar Clark last fall.

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On ‎5‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 4:26 PM, FatUncleJerryBuss said:

What a bad ### they are 8 on 1 and the one is not fighting.   If I were the one when I got out I would put a bullet in every one of them and make sure it was a painful death.    

 

They were practicing their UFC moves with the knees, such tools.

Good for the cops...criminals speeding on streets are dangerous and somebody's innocent family member could have been killed (happens all of the time)... F**ker probably won't speed off next time.

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On 10/20/2015 at 0:44 PM, Amused to Death said:

South Florida
A Florida man’s family is demanding answers after he was fatally shot by a plainclothes police officer in Palm Beach Gardens, Florida, early Sunday morning while he was on the side of the highway with his disabled car.

Corey Jones, 31, a popular drummer in south Florida who played in the band at his church and worked as an inspector for a local city’s housing authority, was shot at about 3:15 a.m. by Officer Nouman Raja, police said in a press release.

“We haven’t gotten any answers yet,” his aunt, Sheila Banks, told the Sun-Sentinel. “All we know is someone shot him.”

Jones’ family says they weren’t notified that he had been killed until about 6 p.m. Sunday, about 15 hours after the shooting.

Here’s what you need to know:

<snipped, see link>


More:
Florida cops kill black man who pulled over with car trouble — and then refuse to tell family why

Plainclothes officer who killed Florida church drummer is charged with manslaughter, attempted murder

Florida prosecutors announced Wednesday that a grand jury indicted former Palm Beach Gardens police officer Nouman Raja on charges of manslaughter by culpable negligence and attempted first-degree murder with a firearm for the shooting death of 31-year-old Corey Jones.

The charges come seven months after Jones, a well-known area musician, was shot and killed in the early morning hours of Oct. 18, 2015, while he waited for a tow truck after his car broke down on an Interstate 95 off-ramp. Jones was armed at the time with a weapon he had purchased legally just three days earlier when he was approached by Raja, a plainclothes officer in an unmarked car.

Palm Beach County State Attorney Dave Aronberg announced Wednesday that a grand jury concluded Raja’s use of force was unjustified. Documents released Wednesday allege that Raja never identified himself to Jones as a police officer as he drove up to the stranded motorist, yelled commands and then opened fire.

Charging documents released Wednesday by prosecutors state that: According to an audio recording of the interaction, at no point did Raja identify himself to Jones as a police officer; he was not wearing his tactical vest identifying himself as a police officer; and Raja’s vehicle was not immediately distinguishable as a police vehicle. Prosecutors say Raja drove his unmarked van the wrong way down the interstate off-ramp in order to confront Jones about 3:15 a.m.

Raja: You good?

Jones: I’m good.

Raja: Really?

Jones: Yeah, I’m good.

Raja: Really?

Jones: Yeah.

Raja: Get your f—ing hands up! Get your f—ing hands up!

Jones: Hold on!

Raja: Get your f—ing hands up! Drop!

Then, according to the documents, Raja fired three shots in rapid succession, prompting an AT&T call center operator who had been on the phone with Jones as he waited for the tow truck to exclaim “Oh my gosh!” Then, 10 seconds later, Raja fired three more shots.

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On 5/12/2016 at 3:26 PM, FatUncleJerryBuss said:

What a bad ### they are 8 on 1 and the one is not fighting.   If I were the one when I got out I would put a bullet in every one of them and make sure it was a painful death.    

 

They were practicing their UFC moves with the knees, such tools.

This seems a little extreme.  Dude got beat up unnecessarily and the cops need to be disciplined, but you have some anger issues there, Jer.

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Just now, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Four years is not sufficient. 

His life is ruined.  He was too rough with the kid.  He tasered him for too long and then dropped him roughly.  Its not like he stood over him hitting him.  He didn't know a taser could stop a heart just like the kids dad didn't know.  He should have been and was disciplined appropriately.

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22 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

His life is ruined.  He was too rough with the kid.  He tasered him for too long and then dropped him roughly.  Its not like he stood over him hitting him.  He didn't know a taser could stop a heart just like the kids dad didn't know.  He should have been and was disciplined appropriately.

I appreciate your sentiments.  As you likely know I spent the majority of my career on these issues.  I will not now discuss the rapidity of the officer's fuse before using the tazer improperly to achieve pain compliance. I will not discuss the officer dumping a limp, person, handcuffed behind their back, on a curb when soft grass was a foot away, but I will discuss an officer's responsibility to protect the health of person's in custody.

 

Here an officer had a juvenile in custody.  The juvenile had been vocal.  The juvenile clearly suffered an injury on his dropping, the type which would typically cause him severe pain, and would result in pleas for medical assistance or at the least substantial moaning in pain.  The juvenile did not respond at all.  The officer made no attempts to ascertain if he was breathing or had a pulse as he stood over the prostate, pulseless, non-breathing juvenile for many minutes as the kid went increasingly cyanotic.   The officer had a duty of care, violated it callously, and the kid suffered for it, unreasonably.  And why, because the kid had a bit of a questioning mouth that might have delayed the officer's wrongful bust without probable cause to obtain a few grams of marijuana, if the officer guessed right.

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49 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

His life is ruined.  He was too rough with the kid.  He tasered him for too long and then dropped him roughly.  Its not like he stood over him hitting him.  He didn't know a taser could stop a heart just like the kids dad didn't know.  He should have been and was disciplined appropriately.

did you watch the dashcam vid?

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4 hours ago, Jayrod said:

His life is ruined.  He was too rough with the kid.  He tasered him for too long and then dropped him roughly.  Its not like he stood over him hitting him.  He didn't know a taser could stop a heart just like the kids dad didn't know.  He should have been and was disciplined appropriately.

WWJD?

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4 hours ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

I appreciate your sentiments.  As you likely know I spent the majority of my career on these issues.  I will not now discuss the rapidity of the officer's fuse before using the tazer improperly to achieve pain compliance. I will not discuss the officer dumping a limp, person, handcuffed behind their back, on a curb when soft grass was a foot away, but I will discuss an officer's responsibility to protect the health of person's in custody.

 

Here an officer had a juvenile in custody.  The juvenile had been vocal.  The juvenile clearly suffered an injury on his dropping, the type which would typically cause him severe pain, and would result in pleas for medical assistance or at the least substantial moaning in pain.  The juvenile did not respond at all.  The officer made no attempts to ascertain if he was breathing or had a pulse as he stood over the prostate, pulseless, non-breathing juvenile for many minutes as the kid went increasingly cyanotic.   The officer had a duty of care, violated it callously, and the kid suffered for it, unreasonably.  And why, because the kid had a bit of a questioning mouth that might have delayed the officer's wrongful bust without probable cause to obtain a few grams of marijuana, if the officer guessed right.

Agreed.  Except I hope autocorrect changed "prostrate."

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17 hours ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

I appreciate your sentiments.  As you likely know I spent the majority of my career on these issues.  I will not now discuss the rapidity of the officer's fuse before using the tazer improperly to achieve pain compliance. I will not discuss the officer dumping a limp, person, handcuffed behind their back, on a curb when soft grass was a foot away, but I will discuss an officer's responsibility to protect the health of person's in custody.

 

Here an officer had a juvenile in custody.  The juvenile had been vocal.  The juvenile clearly suffered an injury on his dropping, the type which would typically cause him severe pain, and would result in pleas for medical assistance or at the least substantial moaning in pain.  The juvenile did not respond at all.  The officer made no attempts to ascertain if he was breathing or had a pulse as he stood over the prostate, pulseless, non-breathing juvenile for many minutes as the kid went increasingly cyanotic.   The officer had a duty of care, violated it callously, and the kid suffered for it, unreasonably.  And why, because the kid had a bit of a questioning mouth that might have delayed the officer's wrongful bust without probable cause to obtain a few grams of marijuana, if the officer guessed right.

The whole thing was awful, I agree.  The officer was way out of line and should have been prosecuted and convicted, which he was.  Apparently several other professionals in the field felt like the punishment should have been 4 years in prison, because that is what he got.

I'm just sensing some bloodlust in this thread and there have been a few posts talking about how the punishment for police in these cases is inadequate.  Sometimes it may be, but I just don't see it in this case.

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17 hours ago, D_House said:

did you watch the dashcam vid?

I watched up through the drop, then skipped through the rest.

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36 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

The whole thing was awful, I agree.  The officer was way out of line and should have been prosecuted and convicted, which he was.  Apparently several other professionals in the field felt like the punishment should have been 4 years in prison, because that is what he got.

I'm just sensing some bloodlust in this thread and there have been a few posts talking about how the punishment for police in these cases is inadequate.  Sometimes it may be, but I just don't see it in this case.

You are a reasonable fellow.  That we differ only by degrees here does not make one of us right and the other wrong.  I respect your opinion.  The important point here is that there was accountability for the officer's actions, and his inactions.

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On 6/1/2016 at 8:06 PM, Amused to Death said:

Plainclothes officer who killed Florida church drummer is charged with manslaughter, attempted murder

Florida prosecutors announced Wednesday that a grand jury indicted former Palm Beach Gardens police officer Nouman Raja on charges of manslaughter by culpable negligence and attempted first-degree murder with a firearm for the shooting death of 31-year-old Corey Jones.

The charges come seven months after Jones, a well-known area musician, was shot and killed in the early morning hours of Oct. 18, 2015, while he waited for a tow truck after his car broke down on an Interstate 95 off-ramp. Jones was armed at the time with a weapon he had purchased legally just three days earlier when he was approached by Raja, a plainclothes officer in an unmarked car.

Palm Beach County State Attorney Dave Aronberg announced Wednesday that a grand jury concluded Raja’s use of force was unjustified. Documents released Wednesday allege that Raja never identified himself to Jones as a police officer as he drove up to the stranded motorist, yelled commands and then opened fire.

Charging documents released Wednesday by prosecutors state that: According to an audio recording of the interaction, at no point did Raja identify himself to Jones as a police officer; he was not wearing his tactical vest identifying himself as a police officer; and Raja’s vehicle was not immediately distinguishable as a police vehicle. Prosecutors say Raja drove his unmarked van the wrong way down the interstate off-ramp in order to confront Jones about 3:15 a.m.

Raja: You good?

Jones: I’m good.

Raja: Really?

Jones: Yeah, I’m good.

Raja: Really?

Jones: Yeah.

Raja: Get your f—ing hands up! Get your f—ing hands up!

Jones: Hold on!

Raja: Get your f—ing hands up! Drop!

Then, according to the documents, Raja fired three shots in rapid succession, prompting an AT&T call center operator who had been on the phone with Jones as he waited for the tow truck to exclaim “Oh my gosh!” Then, 10 seconds later, Raja fired three more shots.

What the heck?

That's awful.  Now this is a guy who deserves a long prison sentence.

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2 hours ago, Jayrod said:

The whole thing was awful, I agree.  The officer was way out of line and should have been prosecuted and convicted, which he was.  Apparently several other professionals in the field felt like the punishment should have been 4 years in prison, because that is what he got.

I'm just sensing some bloodlust in this thread and there have been a few posts talking about how the punishment for police in these cases is inadequate.  Sometimes it may be, but I just don't see it in this case.

 

Our human history is filled with people in positions of power -- kings, sheriffs, tribal chieftains, warlords, gangs, governments -- abusing the powerless.  We have a delicate balance here, because we want to keep "order" to keep the law abiding citizens safe.  But we must be wary of government overreach, for the power of the state taking away the freedoms and life of every day citizens.  We HAVE to err on the side of not abusing the power of the state.  Otherwise it throws the entire process into chaos.  

If I think that the state actor will kill me just for walking down the road, I have to wonder whether or not I will fight that state actor.  Do we mount an insurrection?  Peaceful protest?  Assassination of the police-arm?  The severity of the reaction is related to the perception of powerlessness, and the need to take action before being put in metal boxes en mass.

We CAN'T have state actors behaving in a clear disregard for the safety of its citizens.  Not only that, but acting in an affirmatively abusive fashion without consequence.  I cannot accept it as an engaged member of society.  The police (and the State) do not think twice before sending someone to prison for decades for offenses much worse than this.  This is effectively an act of terrorism, it erodes the trust in the very fabric of society. When a Policeman assaults a citizen, the effect is multiples worse then when a "normal" person assaults someone.  At least with a "normal" person, you can fight back!  You are not allowed to fight back against the police.

We must send a message that this type of behavior is absolutely unacceptable.  We can't lose faith in the power of the State to protect us. An argument could be made that 4 years is not nearly enough.  

Edited by Sweet J

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Prosecutors say Raja drove his unmarked van the wrong way down the interstate off-ramp in order to confront Jones about 3:15 a.m.

Raja: You good?

Jones: I’m good.

Raja: Really?

Jones: Yeah, I’m good.

Raja: Really?

Jones: Yeah.

Raja: Get your f—ing hands up! Get your f—ing hands up!

Jones: Hold on!

Raja: Get your f—ing hands up! Drop!

That escalated quickly.

Appears Raja was looking to kill somebody.

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22 hours ago, Jayrod said:

His life is ruined.  He was too rough with the kid.  He tasered him for too long and then dropped him roughly.  Its not like he stood over him hitting him.  He didn't know a taser could stop a heart just like the kids dad didn't know.  He should have been and was disciplined appropriately.

So now ignorance is a defense?

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1 hour ago, cstu said:

So now ignorance is a defense?

When you have actively been trained otherwise?  Yes.

But I'm sure you knew that.

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3 hours ago, Sweet J said:

 

Our human history is filled with people in positions of power -- kings, sheriffs, tribal chieftains, warlords, gangs, governments -- abusing the powerless.  We have a delicate balance here, because we want to keep "order" to keep the law abiding citizens safe.  But we must be wary of government overreach, for the power of the state taking away the freedoms and life of every day citizens.  We HAVE to err on the side of not abusing the power of the state.  Otherwise it throws the entire process into chaos.  

If I think that the state actor will kill me just for walking down the road, I have to wonder whether or not I will fight that state actor.  Do we mount an insurrection?  Peaceful protest?  Assassination of the police-arm?  The severity of the reaction is related to the perception of powerlessness, and the need to take action before being put in metal boxes en mass.

We CAN'T have state actors behaving in a clear disregard for the safety of its citizens.  Not only that, but acting in an affirmatively abusive fashion without consequence.  I cannot accept it as an engaged member of society.  The police (and the State) do not think twice before sending someone to prison for decades for offenses much worse than this.  This is effectively an act of terrorism, it erodes the trust in the very fabric of society. When a Policeman assaults a citizen, the effect is multiples worse then when a "normal" person assaults someone.  At least with a "normal" person, you can fight back!  You are not allowed to fight back against the police.

We must send a message that this type of behavior is absolutely unacceptable.  We can't lose faith in the power of the State to protect us. An argument could be made that 4 years is not nearly enough.  

I hear what you are saying, and I don't disagree really.

But what you are talking about is more about making an example of the guy, not the punishment fitting the crime.  The kid didn't die and is recovering.  There should be a civil suit to help compensate for the loss of quality of life, but the officer is facing the 4 years as much for faulty taser training as for anything he did.  If the taser doesn't cause the heart attack, he is probably still an officer today.

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On 6/1/2016 at 9:06 PM, Amused to Death said:

Plainclothes officer who killed Florida church drummer is charged with manslaughter, attempted murder

Florida prosecutors announced Wednesday that a grand jury indicted former Palm Beach Gardens police officer Nouman Raja on charges of manslaughter by culpable negligence and attempted first-degree murder with a firearm for the shooting death of 31-year-old Corey Jones.

The charges come seven months after Jones, a well-known area musician, was shot and killed in the early morning hours of Oct. 18, 2015, while he waited for a tow truck after his car broke down on an Interstate 95 off-ramp. Jones was armed at the time with a weapon he had purchased legally just three days earlier when he was approached by Raja, a plainclothes officer in an unmarked car.

Palm Beach County State Attorney Dave Aronberg announced Wednesday that a grand jury concluded Raja’s use of force was unjustified. Documents released Wednesday allege that Raja never identified himself to Jones as a police officer as he drove up to the stranded motorist, yelled commands and then opened fire.

Charging documents released Wednesday by prosecutors state that: According to an audio recording of the interaction, at no point did Raja identify himself to Jones as a police officer; he was not wearing his tactical vest identifying himself as a police officer; and Raja’s vehicle was not immediately distinguishable as a police vehicle. Prosecutors say Raja drove his unmarked van the wrong way down the interstate off-ramp in order to confront Jones about 3:15 a.m.

Raja: You good?

Jones: I’m good.

Raja: Really?

Jones: Yeah, I’m good.

Raja: Really?

Jones: Yeah.

Raja: Get your f—ing hands up! Get your f—ing hands up!

Jones: Hold on!

Raja: Get your f—ing hands up! Drop!

Then, according to the documents, Raja fired three shots in rapid succession, prompting an AT&T call center operator who had been on the phone with Jones as he waited for the tow truck to exclaim “Oh my gosh!” Then, 10 seconds later, Raja fired three more shots.

So he shot him, then doctored the scene.  Sounds familiar.

Prosecutors say that Raja then called 911, about 30 seconds after firing his last round.

“I came out, I saw him come out with a handgun,” Raja told the 911 dispatcher. “I gave him commands, I identified myself, and he turned, pointed the gun at me and started running. I shot him.”

When other officers arrived at the scene, they found Jones’s body about 192 feet away from his car. Jones’s gun was found between him and the car, about 72 feet away from the vehicle.

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20 minutes ago, SacramentoBob said:

So he shot him, then doctored the scene.  Sounds familiar.

 

 

Unfortunately for Raja,  the recorded conversation supports none of what he claims. I'm sure he had no idea the audio of the incident was being recorded by AT&T.  Imagine if it wasn't - would a grand jury indict?  We probably know the answer.

Also worth noting, this is not the first time Raja was suspected of wrong-doing.

ETA: this incident is somewhat important to me.  The victim was a musician in the south FLA area. An old buddy of mine (also a musician) knew him pretty well.

Edited by Amused to Death

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Chaos at Dallas Airport as Cop Shoots Man Armed With Rock, Police Say

"The police told him to stop moving and put the rock down and I guess he didn't listen and they fired a couple shots. He fell," Armstrong said. The man appeared to still be moving on the ground and around five more shots were fired, Armstrong said.

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4 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Yeah I'm listening to some pretty angry people here. Calling for the chief of police to resign immediately. 

They want everyone to resign

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In a statement, Baton Rouge Police Cpl. L’Jean McKneely Jr. said two officers “have been placed on administrative leave per standard procedure,” though it is believed that only one officer fired shots.

The officers have not been named.

“Our guys will most likely review the video tomorrow,” McKneely told The Washington Post in an email Tuesday night.

“We give officers normally a day or so to go home and think about it” before being interviewed, McKneely told the Advocate.

Is there any possible explanation for the bolded other than "we want to give officers a chance to concoct the story most likely to exonerate them while also standing up to scrutiny"?  I can't think of one.

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2 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

Is there any possible explanation for the bolded other than "we want to give officers a chance to concoct the story most likely to exonerate them while also standing up to scrutiny"?  I can't think of one.

You think Joe Citizen gets a day to think about it after he shoots someone?

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The widow gave a very moving speech. Then a member of the Nation of Islam called for nobody to spend money at the Mall of Louisiana. 

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26 minutes ago, Galileo said:

I'm curious how this plays out but death, destruction, injustice, corruption and apathy are a common occurrence down here. BR is definitely different than NO but if there's any serious protests or serious administrative action out if this is I'd be surprised. It's too damned hot right now for one thing.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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9 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

Is there any possible explanation for the bolded other than "we want to give officers a chance to concoct the story most likely to exonerate them while also standing up to scrutiny"?  I can't think of one.

Surely you jest. I'm surprised they're going through the motions.

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9 minutes ago, whoknew said:

You think Joe Citizen gets a day to think about it after he shoots someone?

Exactly.  I hope they get a ton of crap for this in the press and with the public. That statement, more than anything, is indicative of the larger problem at work and the reason for all the protests- the common perception that law enforcement serves its own interests above the public interest.  This was at work in Ferguson as well, where law enforcement circled the wagons for days before making any statements at all.  Even if the shooting turns out to be justified (hard to imagine), the public has every right to be suspicious of whatever tale they're eventually told.

Edited by TobiasFunke
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3 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

Exactly.  I hope they get a ton of crap for this in the press and with the public. That statement, more than anything, is indicative of the larger problem at work and the reason for all the protests- the common perception that law enforcement serves its own interests above the public interest.  This was at work in Ferguson as well, where law enforcement circled the wagons for days before making any statements at all.  Even if the shooting turns out to be justified (hard to imagine), the public has every right to be suspicious of whatever tale they're eventually told.

Tobias the government here is corrupt and the people apathetic and the press is compliant to disinterested. 

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Just now, SaintsInDome2006 said:

Tobias the government here is corrupt and the people apathetic and the press is compliant to disinterested. 

Understood, but I think this may get some national play and exert some pressure that might not normally be there.

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Just now, TobiasFunke said:

Understood, but I think this may get some national play and exert some pressure that might not normally be there.

All for the better. The Danziger incident is the worst case of police killing and cover up I've ever read or heard about and it's still in the courts 11 years later. We have others, typically the police themselves are involved in illegal stuff. Good luck to all of us.

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13 minutes ago, timschochet said:

The widow gave a very moving speech. Then a member of the Nation of Islam called for nobody to spend money at the Mall of Louisiana. 

The NOI sells fruit on street corners here.

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37 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

Is there any possible explanation for the bolded other than "we want to give officers a chance to concoct the story most likely to exonerate them while also standing up to scrutiny"?  I can't think of one.

My experience is that police unions bargain hard for the right to have officers clear headed, rested, and under the representation of a union lawyer before making statements in a use of force investigation.  Somebody mentioned this courtesy is not supplied to average citizens, and that is correct, though they are allowed access to lawyers.  Most Chiefs and their command, and the civilian authorities for which they work, would likely prefer to apply the same standards to officers as they do to civilians but are prevented by collective bargaining contracts from so doing, if only for a time.

The reason I mention this is not to refute any implication Tobias is making, but to bring up conversation on where responsibility for the dichotomy lies.  many tend to believe that conspiracies of silence start at the top.  I offer for discussion that it starts with the bargaining unit for the rank and file.  I concede that there are exceptions to any generalization.

I also note that these interviews are subject not only to the same constitutional rights and protections of citizens (officers being also citizens), but that they can be influenced by Garrity rights and warnings.

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24 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

My experience is that police unions bargain hard for the right to have officers clear headed, rested, and under the representation of a union lawyer before making statements in a use of force investigation.  Somebody mentioned this courtesy is not supplied to average citizens, and that is correct, though they are allowed access to lawyers.  Most Chiefs and their command, and the civilian authorities for which they work, would likely prefer to apply the same standards to officers as they do to civilians but are prevented by collective bargaining contracts from so doing, if only for a time.

The reason I mention this is not to refute any implication Tobias is making, but to bring up conversation on where responsibility for the dichotomy lies.  many tend to believe that conspiracies of silence start at the top.  I offer for discussion that it starts with the bargaining unit for the rank and file.  I concede that there are exceptions to any generalization.

I also note that these interviews are subject not only to the same constitutional rights and protections of citizens (officers being also citizens), but that they can be influenced by Garrity rights and warnings.

DW - from what I've read, in most departments not only do they get the 24 hours,  they are also allowed to review any videos (including body cams) of the incident before they are questioned and before they fine a report. 

Is that your experience? 

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Would like to know what really happened in the Baton Rouge incident. The yell out "He's got a gun" is accurate. And when he was shot he is lying on his back. It can't be seen very well, but if he's reaching into his pocket with his right hand and pulling out his pistol then the shooting is justified. 

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31 minutes ago, whoknew said:

DW - from what I've read, in most departments not only do they get the 24 hours,  they are also allowed to review any videos (including body cams) of the incident before they are questioned and before they fine a report. 

Is that your experience? 

Not uniformly.  There are a couple of procedures or processes that can get conflated here as well.  Directives will vary somewhat among Departments as to when incident reports must be filed and as to when investigative statements on use of force investigations begin.  It is common to allow viewing of video when crafting incident reports, the classic police report as generally discussed.  It is less common to allow further review of video, or even of the incident reports again before being interviewed internally, but that does happen as well.  One has to remember that in use of force matters there really are two matters running side by side, the underlying criminal investigation which brought the officer into the matter, and the administrative investigation on use of force which may itself evolve, potentially quickly, into a second criminal investigation.  Both matters have procedural timelines and in both matters individuals have rights and sometimes there is tension between those rights.

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Thanks for the info DW, I always find your posts a great asset to the board in cases such as this.

As for this case in particular, barring some unforeseen evidence, this is murder.

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21 minutes ago, Ketamine Dreams said:

Would like to know what really happened in the Baton Rouge incident. The yell out "He's got a gun" is accurate. And when he was shot he is lying on his back. It can't be seen very well, but if he's reaching into his pocket with his right hand and pulling out his pistol then the shooting is justified. 

 

21 minutes ago, SHIZNITTTT said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cGYddhYIjY

 

Man that is pretty bad.  Oh, well will be forgotten in a few days until the next "incident" happens. 

I'm going to go get some coffee and look at the papers (yes the newspaper...), curious if there's anything in them on this.

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