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Another killing at the hands of the Police (8 Viewers)

Nathan R. Jessep said:
you should inform the officer if your ID and CCW are in the same vicinity and let him instruct you on what to do next (i.e. step out of the car, let him clear the weapon, etc.)
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This is correct. I've been pulled over twice while carrying and both times i had windows down, radio off, hands on steering wheel. Informed the LEO I am licensed concealed carry, my pistol is in location X, my ID is in location Y, how would he like me to proceed. 

One time the officer said no problem, just move slowly and get ID from back pocket (pistol was in center console). One time I had it on my hip and the officer asked me to get out of the car, put hands on hood. he unholstered my pistol, removed magazine, cleared chamber, and set it on the roof out of reach. Checked my ID. Thanked me for following protocol, let me off with a verbal warning, handed my weapon back and sent me on my way. 

Not saying this guy didn't do this... just explaining standard protocol that everyone is taught in CCW class. 

 
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JB Breakfast Club said:
yet we will now here about how dangerous traffic stops are for cops because they are isolated and not in total control of the situation...that'll be the start of the argument for a justified homicide here. then the cop just needs to say he was scared, and he'll get off. 
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They could be dangerous, but as I mentioned earlier, undertrained officers can make them even more dangerous..(for us)....I have to believe the vast majority of police officers do their job with the best intent but some are either undertrained or not a good fit with the right traits that the job requires.... One tactic that I've seen used, is during a traffic stop the police officer approaches and stands behind the shoulder of the driver, virtually out of reach and sight unless the driver turns around. The officer can see what you are doing but you can't see or access him...Seems like if this was used the officer could have seen and assessed what type of move the driver was making and could have reacted appropriately.

 
Ditka Butkus said:
In the Castile case ..it would be interesting to know if the cop had the gun trained on him or did he do a "Quick Draw McGraw" once Castile made the slightest move...In other words what about this routine stop made the cop so jumpy... (the fact he was black)?..I don't like to see the word murdered in these instances, it only fuels the race issues... I find it hard to believe we have a bunch of serial killers for cops...It seems more likely we have a bunch of under trained scared individuals that are cops....Shouldn't be in a job that requires quick decisions and restraint.
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:goodposting:

Can the fed step in an fund an overhaul of police training protocols? Will that help reduce the number of these horrible events. It doesn't seem like the states are willing to do so.

What's the fix?

Or is this just an unavoidable byproduct of modern society.

 
Ditka Butkus said:
One tactic that I've seen used, is during a traffic stop the police officer approaches and stands behind the shoulder of the driver, virtually out of reach and sight unless the driver turns around. The officer can see what you are doing but you can't see or access him...Seems like if this was used the officer could have seen and assessed what type of move the driver was making and could have reacted appropriately.
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This is how Memphis officers are trained.  Very good defensive position, that allows them relatively good lines of sight while maintaining the ability to strike or retreat as the situation dictates. 

 
[icon] said:
The problem is time and time again these "eye witnesses" turn out to be full of #### and either have their testimony found to be inaccurate or downright fabricated. Guarantee if he had reached for the gun the girlfriend would have been saying the exact same thing just to stir up #### and build on the Us vs Them narrative (or for her 15mins of fame). Hopefully there is body cam footage or something else to clear things up... as IF she'd telling the truth, cop needs to be locked up. I just find her story REALLY hard to believe.

The "Us vs Them" thing is huge. Buddy (White) was driving through the wrong part of Memphis one night and someone (Black guy) ran a redlight and Tboned him.  Late at night and nobody really around. Within minutes there were a dozen "witnesses" (black) coming out of the woodwork drawn to the blue lights saying my buddy ran the red light, not the other party. There are tons of other stories similar to this, or in police related shootings where the testimony is found to be total BS. 

We ALL want bad cops off the streets.... but this "Guilty until proven innocent" mindset toward the police in certain circles is downright sad. 
 
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That's an unfortunate situation and those people were wrong. 

But let's not ignore the blue wall and the group of cops who act like they are patrolling Baghdad and the public is the enemy. A lot of people don't give the cops the benefit of the doubt because of their experience with cops. 

The answer is community policing. Stop treating citizens like they are the ####### enemy. Stop backing every action by a cop - regardless of how ####ty that cop is. 

Be part of the solution by cleaning up the forces. 

 
According to the St Anthony police chief, this is the first officer involved shooting for that department's area in 30 years.

So, again, this isn't some urban battleground we're talking about here.

 
rascal said:
Wonder if this would be as prevalent if cops didn't have to worry about everyone being armed.
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ya, I noticed Sterling had not one, but two prior gun offenses. Maybe if we up the penalty for illegal carry a few of these might not happen. Maybe he'd still be in jail right now instead of dead.

worth a try, no?

 
Don Quixote said:
Is there a protocol for someone carrying to get their ID out, since they have to take their hands off the wheel for that?  (Not trying to make any type of argument; genuinely curious as I don't carry.)
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I can tell you how I handled a traffic stop, you can take from it what you will.

First, some background.  In my job I was authorized to carry, and in fact was required to do so for a time.  I have a badge but was not uniformed unless a suit and tie is a uniform.  I was driving my personal vehicle.  My registration had expired and I was aware of that.  The reason for the expired tag was actually an administrative error by the State and I had the relevant paperwork to show that, and I was, in fact, returning from addressing that fact.

So I was driving, lawfully, in the next jurisdiction over from the one where I work and am well known.  I got pulled over.  I pulled out of traffic, parked immediately, put on my hazard lights, shut off my engine, rolled down my window, put on my dome light (it was twilight, and I placed my hands on the steering wheel with my keys dangling from my finger.  A very young, quite attractive Deputy approached.  She asked if I knew why she had pulled me over.  I stated I did not care to speculate.  she told me my registration tag was expired.  I told her I could explain and could show her documentation to back up my explanation.  She asked for my license and registration.  Before moving I told her my license was in my wallet in my back pocket and my registration was in the glove box.  I told her I would have to reach for each and did I have permission to move.  She seemed nervous but said that I did.  Before moving I told her that  the glove box also contained a handgun and would she feel more comfortable securing me and getting the registration and POI herself.  She drew her weapon and asked me to get out of the  vehicle.  I complied.  I leaned against my truck, spread my legs without request, and placed my hands behind me.  She cuffed me.  It was sexy.  She retrieved my weapon, paperwork, and badge case, also in the glove box.  We then talked. Everything was cleared up in a matter of moments. We both went about our business safely.  Some years later I  had cause to interact with her in court. She remembered the interaction.  She stated she appreciated the way I handled the matter. 

 
Andy Dufresne said:
Isn't it proof that people will get guns whether it's legal or illegal? : confused:
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yes, indeed, its proof.

It's also proof that there are absolutely no consequences to illegal gun ownership, right?

Why aren't there consequences? Could it be that everyone knows bills imposing real consequences will never see the light of day? They won't even make it out of a committee.

2 prior offenses. If he got picked up for a 3rd, what would have happened? I am sure as #### he would not get anything near a "3 strikes" drug conviction. Why is that?

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
I can tell you how I handled a traffic stop, you can take from it what you will.

First, some background.  In my job I was authorized to carry, and in fact was required to do so for a time.  I have a badge but was not uniformed unless a suit and tie is a uniform.  I was driving my personal vehicle.  My registration had expired and I was aware of that.  The reason for the expired tag was actually an administrative error by the State and I had the relevant paperwork to show that, and I was, in fact, returning from addressing that fact.

So I was driving, lawfully, in the next jurisdiction over from the one where I work and am well known.  I got pulled over.  I pulled out of traffic, parked immediately, put on my hazard lights, shut off my engine, rolled down my window, put on my dome light (it was twilight, and I placed my hands on the steering wheel with my keys dangling from my finger.  A very young, quite attractive Deputy approached.  She asked if I knew why she had pulled me over.  I stated I did not care to speculate.  she told me my registration tag was expired.  I told her I could explain and could show her documentation to back up my explanation.  She asked for my license and registration.  Before moving I told her my license was in my wallet in my back pocket and my registration was in the glove box.  I told her I would have to reach for each and did I have permission to move.  She seemed nervous but said that I did.  Before moving I told her that  the glove box also contained a handgun and would she feel more comfortable securing me and getting the registration and POI herself.  She drew her weapon and asked me to get out of the  vehicle.  I complied.  I leaned against my truck, spread my legs without request, and placed my hands behind me.  She cuffed me.  It was sexy.  She retrieved my weapon, paperwork, and badge case, also in the glove box.  We then talked. Everything was cleared up in a matter of moments. We both went about our business safely.  Some years later I  had cause to interact with her in court. She remembered the interaction.  She stated she appreciated the way I handled the matter. 
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I think AZ Ron might be due to be pulled over by an attractive, young female cop one of these days.

 
JerseyToughGuys said:
yes, indeed, its proof.

It's also proof that there are absolutely no consequences to illegal gun ownership, right?

Why aren't there consequences? Could it be that everyone knows bills imposing real consequences will never see the light of day? They won't even make it out of a committee.

2 prior offenses. If he got picked up for a 3rd, what would have happened? I am sure as #### he would not get anything near a "3 strikes" drug conviction. Why is that?
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Here's what's on the books in LA:

C.  On a second conviction, the offender shall be imprisoned with or without hard labor for not more than five years.

D.  On third and subsequent convictions, the offender shall be imprisoned with or without hard labor for not more than ten years without benefit of parole, probation, or suspension of sentence.

shouldn't this dude have been locked up after the second conviction (assuming he was convicted)? are prosecutors / judges just not enforcing these?

 
Pretty sure the priors posted above is bull#### 

a records check with the Minnesota Department of Public Safety showed Philando Castile had only a case for not having insurance; he was also booked once for driving after revocation. No non-traffic offenses came up. The Star-Tribune said his record consisted of “misdemeanors and petty misdemeanors”.)

 
JerseyToughGuys said:
Here's what's on the books in LA:

C.  On a second conviction, the offender shall be imprisoned with or without hard labor for not more than five years.

D.  On third and subsequent convictions, the offender shall be imprisoned with or without hard labor for not more than ten years without benefit of parole, probation, or suspension of sentence.

shouldn't this dude have been locked up after the second conviction (assuming he was convicted)? are prosecutors / judges just not enforcing these?
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mandatory minimums imo. We have it for drugs, why not guns?

 
I watched the new angle for the Sterling shooting. 

1.  It was horrific.

2.  After he was shot, and either dead or dying, a police officer reached into his pocket and pulled out what looked like a gun.

HOW IS THIS JUSTIFIED??

 
I wonder if the average citizen more likely to be killed by a cop or a criminal?  Probably the stats would say criminal, but I bet if you factored out the drug dealers who kill each other, it'd be much closer.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
I can tell you how I handled a traffic stop, you can take from it what you will.

First, some background.  In my job I was authorized to carry, and in fact was required to do so for a time.  I have a badge but was not uniformed unless a suit and tie is a uniform.  I was driving my personal vehicle.  My registration had expired and I was aware of that.  The reason for the expired tag was actually an administrative error by the State and I had the relevant paperwork to show that, and I was, in fact, returning from addressing that fact.

So I was driving, lawfully, in the next jurisdiction over from the one where I work and am well known.  I got pulled over.  I pulled out of traffic, parked immediately, put on my hazard lights, shut off my engine, rolled down my window, put on my dome light (it was twilight, and I placed my hands on the steering wheel with my keys dangling from my finger.  A very young, quite attractive Deputy approached.  She asked if I knew why she had pulled me over.  I stated I did not care to speculate.  she told me my registration tag was expired.  I told her I could explain and could show her documentation to back up my explanation.  She asked for my license and registration.  Before moving I told her my license was in my wallet in my back pocket and my registration was in the glove box.  I told her I would have to reach for each and did I have permission to move.  She seemed nervous but said that I did.  Before moving I told her that  the glove box also contained a handgun and would she feel more comfortable securing me and getting the registration and POI herself.  She drew her weapon and asked me to get out of the  vehicle.  I complied.  I leaned against my truck, spread my legs without request, and placed my hands behind me.  She cuffed me.  It was sexy.  She retrieved my weapon, paperwork, and badge case, also in the glove box.  We then talked. Everything was cleared up in a matter of moments. We both went about our business safely.  Some years later I  had cause to interact with her in court. She remembered the interaction.  She stated she appreciated the way I handled the matter. 
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You don't think it was an overreaction to pull her gun on you and cuff you?

 
Andy Dufresne said:
I have a permit to carry.

I'm not excusing the cop but...if the guy was carrying and had his hands in his lap instead of on the steering wheel then he made a bad mistake. Of course, not one he should be shot for. But a mistake nonetheless.
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I have a LTC as well and I have been pulled over twice while carrying. Each time I made the officer aware that I have an LTC, I made the officer aware of the pistols location, and I kept both hands in the air. 

 
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JerseyToughGuys said:
no. mandatory minimums aren't a good fit for drug laws. Was a worth a shot? absolutely.

why not try it for illegal guns? what's there to lose?
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Thousands of years of additional, unnecessary prison sentences. More resentment from minorities and poor. Significant additional costs to taxpayers. Among other things, of course.

 
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the moops said:
 For legally carrying a gun and having expired registration?
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At the time, all the officer knew was that there were now weapons involved.  Until she could assess the situation and verify everything, it is in her interest, and the interest of the one detained, to be safe.  I don't have a problem with the cuffs.

 
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the moops said:
Pretty sure the priors posted above is bull#### 

a records check with the Minnesota Department of Public Safety showed Philando Castile had only a case for not having insurance; he was also booked once for driving after revocation. No non-traffic offenses came up. The Star-Tribune said his record consisted of “misdemeanors and petty misdemeanors”.)
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Also if he worked at a school as the article claims, no way he is getting hired with the record the previous poster put up. Schools are pretty strict on the background checks for who they hire.

http://heavy.com/news/2016/07/philando-castile-falcon-heights-minnesota-police-shooting-facebook-live-video-watch-uncensored-you-tube-police-shooting-man-shot-lavish-reynolds/

 
whoknew said:
Maybe. I guess it depends on what the contemplated sentence is and what the reason is for having the gun. 

And anything else a judge or prosecutor would take into account.
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the laws are already on the books. instead of discretionary 5 and 10 max in LA (2nd and 3rd), why not make it 5 and 10 minimum.

what's the down side?

 
the moops said:
 For legally carrying a gun and having expired registration?
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These days cops are on the edge.  For all she knows he could be just telling her he had a gun in the glove box and when she went to retrieve it herself, he would potentially attack her.  I think pulling the gun was overboard, however. But as a female cop not knowing the intentions of the driver, it could be a very bad situation for her.  

 
ATC1 said:
These days cops are on the edge.  For all she knows he could be just telling her he had a gun in the glove box and when she went to retrieve it herself, he would potentially attack her.  I think pulling the gun was overboard, however. But as a female cop not knowing the intentions of the driver, it could be a very bad situation for her.  
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what does this mean?

 
JerseyToughGuys said:
the laws are already on the books. instead of discretionary 5 and 10 max in LA (2nd and 3rd), why not make it 5 and 10 minimum.

what's the down side?
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The downside is not giving the judge, jury, and prosecutor the option to take in extenuating circumstances. 

For example, what if it was a woman who bought a gun illegally to protect her from her super abusive ex-boyfriend who has threatened to kill her? And this is the second time she's been caught. Mandatory 10 years?

 
whoknew said:
The downside is not giving the judge, jury, and prosecutor the option to take in extenuating circumstances. 

For example, what if it was a woman who bought a gun illegally to protect her from her super abusive ex-boyfriend who has threatened to kill her? And this is the second time she's been caught. Mandatory 10 years?
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It would be 5 years.

I think if she did it a second time, ya. That's fair.

If those are extenuating circumstances for breaking the law (twice), it's going to be nearly impossible to enforce the law.

 
JerseyToughGuys said:
It would be 5 years.

I think if she did it a second time, ya. That's fair.

If those are extenuating circumstances for breaking the law (twice), it's going to be nearly impossible to enforce the law.
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I don't understand this sentence. 

The extenuating circumstances may not excuse breaking the law. But they would go to the length of sentence. Sending a battered woman to prison for 10 years because she's afraid she will be killed seems crazy to me. 

And that's just one example. Our prisons are littered with drug offenders who have very long sentences that never would have happened but for mandatory minimum. I don't understand why you think it will work better with guns.

 
I am not saying it is smart, but I believe I read that Minnesota law does not require an individual tell an officer that they are possession of a handgun. That is pretty crazy.

 
A) It's pretty clear that the process for pulling individuals over and engaging them in dangerous situations(Ferguson)  needs to be completely revamped.

B) Why doesn't this happen to white persons with the same frequency?

 
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Sweet J said:
I watched the new angle for the Sterling shooting. 

1.  It was horrific.

2.  After he was shot, and either dead or dying, a police officer reached into his pocket and pulled out what looked like a gun.

HOW IS THIS JUSTIFIED??
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it really is sickening 

 
rascal said:
Wonder if this would be as prevalent if cops didn't have to worry about everyone being armed.
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Andy Dufresne said:
Of course but that'll never happen because a cop would have to assume the possibility of illegal possession.
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Exactly.... gun laws don't mean #### when this guy was carrying illegally. Even if all guns were made illegal overnight, this is (if anything) an example of why officers would still have to be wary of folks being armed. 

JerseyToughGuys said:
seems like he had it coming, amiright?
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Alleged Prior arrests for illegal firearms and other crimes don't warrant someone getting shot. 

Alleged Prior arrests for illegal firearms and other crimes, and/or alleged reports of firearms being pointed/waved on the scene prior to arrival DO warrant officers using more force, and being more sensitive to escalating the use of force continuum. 

 
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avoiding injuries said:
I don't have one micro-ounce of fear of being killed by a police officer. Maybe I'm not the average citizen you're referring to?
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really? I've been pulled over and put on the ground before at gun point because my vehicle matched the description of one used in a robbery. I can tell you that I had 0 confidence in those that continued pointing the gun at me even after the dispatcher came over the radio and said it was a red ford truck and not a red jeep truck. They continued to yell contradicting things at me, one would yell arms to the side while the other yelled arms out in front. In the end I barely got a sorry as they went back into their car and took off. F the police.

 
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