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Gary Coal Man

Baltimore: The Next Ferguson?

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18 minutes ago, timschochet said:

No. The idea was that once the rioting started, the police should let it continue for awhile to let people simmer down. I don't know whether or not this is a good or bad idea depending on the situation, but it's one that's been used by law enforcement before. 

I guess you see this as a major distinction. I don't. 

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2 minutes ago, Smack Tripper said:

I agree with you and I would rather address these ills schools for the young than prisons for the old. 

But, at the end of the day, when the rubber meets the road, it at some point has to be about personal responsibility and choice. And people also have the human rights and autonomy to live free and raise their kids as they see fit. 

I work in these neighborhoods frequently, often with schools and government and a good student starts in the home and no amount of money you throw at this or individual intervention you apply can correct when frankly a parent who was a poor student with poor habits and life choices raises their kids with exactly what they know. And they were raised that way because their parents were that way and up the chain we go.   That's the issue we are up against and I really don't know how to address that without trampling individual liberty short of saying, "you have to do this and you have to pull yourself up"

You raise some good points here and I admire you for working in those areas. I have myself. 

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your right....I grew up in an a pretty average middle class environment. And while i'm no psychologist or civic historian, I was taught what is right and wrong. 

Why did I need to be black to learn that having children and abandoning them is not good? wouldn't you think that if 'i' grew up watching a mom struggle to work and keep a house w/o a father around, that 'i' wouldn't want to put someone else through that? 

Why do I need to be black to learn that killing someone is illegal and wrong? Seeing friends killed (by their own neighbors) and lost to drugs or jail makes 'me' want to do the same? 

Maybe I misspoke about 'leaders' yes role models are important. But these people who are leading many of the black movements are more concerned about causing chaos and (as I posted before) keeping themselves employed as 'leaders' then solving any problems. 

I don't expect every impoverished community to all of a sudden wake up and there is rainbows and bunny rabbits. But I have faith that they can bring change if they take some level of person responsibility. 

But what about racism? Oh, the big bad white corporations won't hire black males!! There is a minor issue that many people who cry racism seem to be missing...professionalism. I don't own a company that employs people, but if there is an open position between me and a person who walks in with a hat on, pants drooping and talking liking they are ignorant and "keeping it real" then I pretty much feel confident about getting that job. Is that racist...no, its an employer who is concerned about their professional image to their clients and employees. Concerned that if a person can't show up to an interview like they want the job, how will they be on an average Tuesday? But yet, even if a person is trying to bring themselves up, the community knocks them down and looks down on them for trying to improve themselves. So you have communities that cry they are oppressed, while pressing themselves??

So yes...their problem may be our problem, but there needs to be a 2 way street. I don't see that. 

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5 minutes ago, glvsav37 said:

your right....I grew up in an a pretty average middle class environment. And while i'm no psychologist or civic historian, I was taught what is right and wrong. 

Why did I need to be black to learn that having children and abandoning them is not good? wouldn't you think that if 'i' grew up watching a mom struggle to work and keep a house w/o a father around, that 'i' wouldn't want to put someone else through that? 

Why do I need to be black to learn that killing someone is illegal and wrong? Seeing friends killed (by their own neighbors) and lost to drugs or jail makes 'me' want to do the same? 

Maybe I misspoke about 'leaders' yes role models are important. But these people who are leading many of the black movements are more concerned about causing chaos and (as I posted before) keeping themselves employed as 'leaders' then solving any problems. 

I don't expect every impoverished community to all of a sudden wake up and there is rainbows and bunny rabbits. But I have faith that they can bring change if they take some level of person responsibility. 

But what about racism? Oh, the big bad white corporations won't hire black males!! There is a minor issue that many people who cry racism seem to be missing...professionalism. I don't own a company that employs people, but if there is an open position between me and a person who walks in with a hat on, pants drooping and talking liking they are ignorant and "keeping it real" then I pretty much feel confident about getting that job. Is that racist...no, its an employer who is concerned about their professional image to their clients and employees. Concerned that if a person can't show up to an interview like they want the job, how will they be on an average Tuesday? But yet, even if a person is trying to bring themselves up, the community knocks them down and looks down on them for trying to improve themselves. So you have communities that cry they are oppressed, while pressing themselves??

So yes...their problem may be our problem, but there needs to be a 2 way street. I don't see that. 

I think you're well meaning, but I guess I just strongly disagree with your overall emphasis. 

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7 minutes ago, glvsav37 said:

But these people who are leading many of the black movements are more concerned about causing chaos and (as I posted before) keeping themselves employed as 'leaders' then solving any problems. 
 

I think this is true of some but not of most.

And it occurs to me that one reason we never seem to be able to solve these issues is our constant demonizing of each side. For example, I wrote that young blacks are subject to institutionalized racism by police. But that doesn't make the police racist- it makes them, in most cases, subject to old or lazy habits which leads inevitably to racist actions. To me this is an important distinction, one that the Black Lives Matter folks never make- they would rather just think that the police are deliberately racist- because that too is a lazy approach. 

 

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@timschochet I agree with (and guilty of) demonizing. I won't lie. I think one of our biggest issues as a culture is our current media outlets. They are controlling how greatly or not events are publicized and often shaping the narrative. At the same time, the 'leaders' (like Sharpton) are embraced by the media (and white house) while he leave a checkered past with Tawana Brawley and his tax evasion issues, only poping up when its a white/black issue...its hard not to feel like demonizing him. 

As i said, there is no clear 2 way street....its all eyes on the police and white males being accountable but none the other way. 

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7 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I think this is true of some but not of most.

And it occurs to me that one reason we never seem to be able to solve these issues is our constant demonizing of each side. For example, I wrote that young blacks are subject to institutionalized racism by police. But that doesn't make the police racist- it makes them, in most cases, subject to old or lazy habits which leads inevitably to racist actions. To me this is an important distinction, one that the Black Lives Matter folks never make- they would rather just think that the police are deliberately racist- because that too is a lazy approach. 

 

Obama:

Quote

When I was a state senator, I helped pass Illinois’s first racial profiling law, and one of the first laws in the nation requiring the videotaping of confessions in capital cases. And we were successful because, early on, I engaged law enforcement. I didn’t say to them, oh, you guys are so racist, you need to do something. I understood, as many of you do, that the overwhelming majority of police officers are good, and honest, and courageous, and fair, and love the communities they serve.

And we knew there were some bad apples, and that even the good cops with the best of intentions -- including, by the way, African American police officers -- might have unconscious biases, as we all do. So we engaged and we listened, and we kept working until we built consensus. And because we took the time to listen, we crafted legislation that was good for the police -- because it improved the trust and cooperation of the community -- and it was good for the communities, who were less likely to be treated unfairly. And I can say this unequivocally: Without at least the acceptance of the police organizations in Illinois, I could never have gotten those bills passed. Very simple. They would have blocked them.

 

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52 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I'm sure a lot of people will agree with your post. To me it's too easy. I'm betting that you didn't grow up in a poor black family in a high crime urban neighborhood. I certainly didn't. In my view, those that escape that situation are remarkable, to be admired. Those that succumb to it are not blameless, but not entirely culpable either.

You say you are sick of these people depending on leaders. I'm sick of people who haven't lived through racism and poverty expecting everyone to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps." Their misery is OUR problem, OUR responsibility. 

Same old crap regarding your,: " I'm sick of people who haven't lived through racism and poverty expecting everyone to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps".  We were poor( 8 kids in 13 years) but dad hung around & worked 3 jobs.   Also your;  "Their problem is our problem,  your responsibility ".  You & your racism junk is really getting old.  It's like your better than most because of your racism calls.   So tired, so old, and simply pathetic.  I have a suggestion.   As you live close to some of these dangerous areas why don't you get off your high horse & go door to door in the hood & pass out info sheets on how they can turn their lives around.  Looks to me like you have some spare time on your hands, give it a whirl & report back.

Also  O mighty one,  give me some suggestions on how I contributed to the plight of the blacks & inner city crime, & just how I can help.

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Just now, irishidiot said:

Same old crap regarding your,: " I'm sick of people who haven't lived through racism and poverty expecting everyone to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps".  We were poor( 8 kids in 13 years) but dad hung around & worked 3 jobs.   Also your;  "Their problem is our problem,  your responsibility ".  You & your racism junk is really getting old.  It's like your better than most because of your racism calls.   So tired, so old, and simply pathetic.  I have a suggestion.   As you live close to some of these dangerous areas why don't you get off your high horse & go door to door in the hood & pass out info sheets on how they can turn their lives around.  Looks to me like you have some spare time on your hands, give it a whirl & report back.

Also  O mighty one,  give me some suggestions on how I contributed to the plight of the blacks & inner city crime, & just how I can help.

:mellow:

 

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I'm just hoping this city stays chill for a bit.  I gotta ride my bike home through downtown right now.

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24 minutes ago, irishidiot said:

Also  O mighty one,  give me some suggestions on how I contributed to the plight of the blacks & inner city crime, & just how I can help.

There are lots of charities you can give to that do good work in urban areas. Here's one I have given money to before: 

http://nul.iamempowered.com

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1 hour ago, irishidiot said:

Same old crap regarding your,: " I'm sick of people who haven't lived through racism and poverty expecting everyone to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps".  We were poor( 8 kids in 13 years) but dad hung around & worked 3 jobs.   Also your;  "Their problem is our problem,  your responsibility ".  You & your racism junk is really getting old.  It's like your better than most because of your racism calls.   So tired, so old, and simply pathetic.  I have a suggestion.   As you live close to some of these dangerous areas why don't you get off your high horse & go door to door in the hood & pass out info sheets on how they can turn their lives around.  Looks to me like you have some spare time on your hands, give it a whirl & report back.

Also  O mighty one,  give me some suggestions on how I contributed to the plight of the blacks & inner city crime, & just how I can help.

If Tim put forth half the effort in helping the black community as he does posting on a message board, I think he could end all poverty as we know it. 

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I don't understand why these black people can't just act like middle class white folk?  geez

 

You grow up with a single mother in the projects

You see single mom struggling to make ends meet

You go to a very bad school where kids are not there to learn, you meet other kids who could care case about an education

You start hanging out with your new friends because you don't want to sit in the 1 bedroom apartment all day/night

You try to impress your boys and meet a girl,  teenage hormones take over and you get a girl pregnant at say 16

At this point what do you do with your life?  16 and a father.  Probably still living at home.  Maybe you become an attorney with your excellent opportunities that have been bestowed upon you and you raise your family like a nice middle class white folk. 

 

Over simplification yes.  But, people act as if environment doesn't have a large influence on your life.  

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12 minutes ago, SHIZNITTTT said:

I don't understand why these black people can't just act like middle class white folk?  geez

 

You grow up with a single mother in the projects

You see single mom struggling to make ends meet

You go to a very bad school where kids are not there to learn, you meet other kids who could care case about an education

You start hanging out with your new friends because you don't want to sit in the 1 bedroom apartment all day/night

You try to impress your boys and meet a girl,  teenage hormones take over and you get a girl pregnant at say 16

At this point what do you do with your life?  16 and a father.  Probably still living at home.  Maybe you become an attorney with your excellent opportunities that have been bestowed upon you and you raise your family like a nice middle class white folk. 

 

Over simplification yes.  But, people act as if environment doesn't have a large influence on your life.  

You can try to break the cycle

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7 minutes ago, SHIZNITTTT said:

I don't understand why these black people can't just act like middle class white folk?  geez

 

You grow up with a single mother in the projects

You see single mom struggling to make ends meet

You go to a very bad school where kids are not there to learn, you meet other kids who could care case about an education

You start hanging out with your new friends because you don't want to sit in the 1 bedroom apartment all day/night

You try to impress your boys and meet a girl,  teenage hormones take over and you get a girl pregnant at say 16

At this point what do you do with your life?  16 and a father.  Probably still living at home.  Maybe you become an attorney with your excellent opportunities that have been bestowed upon you and you raise your family like a nice middle class white folk. 

 

Over simplification yes.  But, people act as if environment doesn't have a large influence on your life.  

Yes, that is an oversimplification, and likely also a mischaracterization.    People aren't arguing that environment doesn't have a large influence on your life.  Most people are arguing that they're not responsible for that environment, and environment should not exonerate you from all responsibility to act within acceptable societal norms because we all have free will.

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4 minutes ago, Gary Coal Man said:

Yes, that is an oversimplification, and likely also a mischaracterization.    People aren't arguing that environment doesn't have a large influence on your life.  Most people are arguing that they're not responsible for that environment, and environment should not exonerate you from all responsibility to act within acceptable societal norms because we all have free will.

Which of us as a young adult or teenager went against the grain?  Really hard to 'break the cycle' when your parent/s don't have any life skills to share with you.  Maybe not a role model around to learn from other than some thugs to learn "keep it real!"    Most kids want to be cool, fit in with your buddies.   I see it everyday with my own twins.  Would be so easy for them to smoke a joint, cigarette, screw some chick willing to give it up to be considered cool by their peers.  

 

 

Quick story -  when I was 11 or 12 years old we had an old rail road track that ran behind our elementary school.  One day my best friend and I were walking along the tracks and my friend picked up a rock and threw it knocking out a pane of glass.  I picked up a rock and did the same thing.  When it was finished we had knocked out around 70 pane glass windows.  Well the janitor saw us "Why the #### he was still at the school I still don't know?" and gave chase.  My friend was faster and got away.  Well I was caught and after my Dad whupped my ### I had to help the janitor that summer replacing the broken glass.  

 

Broken glass = turned over police car.  No one thinks at the moment about what is going to happen at a later time.  Just wanna be cool and hang out with the boys.

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31 minutes ago, Gary Coal Man said:

Yes, that is an oversimplification, and likely also a mischaracterization.    People aren't arguing that environment doesn't have a large influence on your life.  Most people are arguing that they're not responsible for that environment, and environment should not exonerate you from all responsibility to act within acceptable societal norms because we all have free will.

Yes. 1000000000000000 times yes.

Edited by RnR

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2 hours ago, RnR said:

Yes. 1000000000000000 times yes.

Yes again.  I don't have a racist bone in my body.  Never had, never will.   The generic labeling;  that's what pisses me off. 

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3 hours ago, timschochet said:

There are lots of charities you can give to that do good work in urban areas. Here's one I have given money to before: 

http://nul.iamempowered.com

Cool.  So how did the volunteer stuff work out in the hood?  I thought so. 

no disrespect-just fact.

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I normally give to a particular church, as I don't have to look at the salaries; i.e.; United Way & the rest.   Charities should not have salaries. IMO.  Actually Hillary gave a speech for a charity gathering and only charged them $200,000.00 and change.  Look it up.  Yea she cares.

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34 minutes ago, irishidiot said:

I normally give to a particular church, as I don't have to look at the salaries; i.e.; United Way & the rest.   Charities should not have salaries. IMO.  Actually Hillary gave a speech for a charity gathering and only charged them $200,000.00 and change.  Look it up.  Yea she cares.

Which she "donated" to her own charity.  Not saying she shouldn't have donated back to the first charity but you're not telling the whole story.  

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7 minutes ago, Officer Pete Malloy said:

Which she "donated" to her own charity.  Not saying she shouldn't have donated back to the first charity but you're not telling the whole story.  

And another part of the story is the charity underreported the fees and kicked back some income on the back end as well. (Not really relevant to Baltimore but anyway...).

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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42 minutes ago, irishidiot said:

I normally give to a particular church, as I don't have to look at the salaries; i.e.; United Way & the rest.   Charities should not have salaries. IMO.  Actually Hillary gave a speech for a charity gathering and only charged them $200,000.00 and change.  Look it up.  Yea she cares.

Well, the church has been known for touching the lives of a lot of young people. Nice to hear you are supporting that.

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9 minutes ago, BoltBacker said:

Well, the church has been known for touching the lives of a lot of young people. Nice to hear you are supporting that.

Actually it's church that's called St. Joseph's.  They helped me growing up.  Big time .   I needed it.

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4 minutes ago, irishidiot said:

Actually it's church that's called St. Joseph's.  They helped me growing up.  Big time .   I needed it.

Good for you for giving back. 

On the rest, we really disagree. 

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7 hours ago, timschochet said:

I'm sure a lot of people will agree with your post. To me it's too easy. I'm betting that you didn't grow up in a poor black family in a high crime urban neighborhood. I certainly didn't. In my view, those that escape that situation are remarkable, to be admired. Those that succumb to it are not blameless, but not entirely culpable either.

You say you are sick of these people depending on leaders. I'm sick of people who haven't lived through racism and poverty expecting everyone to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps." Their misery is OUR problem, OUR responsibility. 

I couldn't disagree more here.  As difficult as it may be to understand,  without people eventually taking responsibility for their own actions,  there's no one else to blame but themselves.  Life isn't fair sometimes.  That's just how the world works.   That's not to say things can't be improved by those who are able to help change things,  but it won't amount to anything unless people accept responsibility themselves and quit blaming others.  But we live in the "blaming"  society.  That's also how the world works and it's enabled by many. 

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1 minute ago, flapgreen said:

I couldn't disagree more here.  As difficult as it may be to understand,  without people eventually taking responsibility for their own actions,  there's no one else to blame but themselves.  Life isn't fair sometimes.  That's just how the world works.   That's not to say things can't be improved by those who are able to help change things,  but it won't amount to anything unless people accept responsibility themselves and quit blaming others.  But we live in the "blaming"  society.  That's also how the world works and it's enabled by many. 

I respect this opinion, and of course it's shared by many many people (including several of my closest loved ones.) But I don't see it, and that's probably why, despite my firm belief in capitalism, I don't think I could ever call myself a conservative. It's not an even playing field. It never has been. We need to recognize the inequities, and try to adjust for them. 

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so how do 'we' adjust?

• more affirmative action?

• more welfare?

• more housing credits?

• free babysitting?

its easy to just say recognize and adjust, but whats going to be the thing to make everything right?

however, to be fair...I will say one of the biggest problems in many of these communities is the overly harsh prison sentences and the never ending legal cycle (both money and time) that people face once they get caught up in the system. That needs to change.

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1 minute ago, glvsav37 said:

so how do 'we' adjust?

• more affirmative action?

• more welfare?

• more housing credits?

• free babysitting?

its easy to just say recognize and adjust, but whats going to be the thing to make everything right?

however, to be fair...I will say one of the biggest problems in many of these communities is the overly harsh prison sentences and the never ending legal cycle (both money and time) that people face once they get caught up in the system. That needs to change.

I don't know how we adjust. 

One argument that conservatives have made over the years is that these cities typically have Democratic city governments and get lots of spending. On education they often already receive more money per student than do a lot of more prosperous communities. These facts argue against the "liberal approach" and they are compelling, at least to me. But then I ask my conservative friends, "OK, you make a good point. What we're doing is not working. What do you suggest instead?" And they seem to have few answers for this, other than to do nothing. I can't accept that either. So I don't know. 

But your point about prison sentences is valid and something that I think many conservatives and liberals see eye to eye on...

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23 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Good for you for giving back. 

On the rest, we really disagree. 

Yes, especially the racist deal you keep throwing at everyone that doesn't toe the line with your political views.  Your argument is actually racist. 

Whatever.  It's all good so long as there is a dissertation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I don't know how we adjust. 

One argument that conservatives have made over the years is that these cities typically have Democratic city governments and get lots of spending. On education they often already receive more money per student than do a lot of more prosperous communities. These facts argue against the "liberal approach" and they are compelling, at least to me. But then I ask my conservative friends, "OK, you make a good point. What we're doing is not working. What do you suggest instead?" And they seem to have few answers for this, other than to do nothing. I can't accept that either. So I don't know. 

But your point about prison sentences is valid and something that I think many conservatives and liberals see eye to eye on...

Cool, you are back in the real world.   Can hardly wait until I'm called a racist & a bigot again.

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3 minutes ago, irishidiot said:

Cool, you are back in the real world.   Can hardly wait until I'm called a racist & a bigot again.

I have never once called you a racist in this thread. Perhaps you're referring to somebody else? 

I wrote that there is institutionalized racism that exists against young black men in urban areas. I wrote that most of the police are not deliberately racist, but they're trained in a lazy way that leads to racist results. You're free to disagree with me on these two points, but I'm prepared to defend them. Please show me where I called you a racist or a bigot. 

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47 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I don't know how we adjust. 

One argument that conservatives have made over the years is that these cities typically have Democratic city governments and get lots of spending. On education they often already receive more money per student than do a lot of more prosperous communities. These facts argue against the "liberal approach" and they are compelling, at least to me. But then I ask my conservative friends, "OK, you make a good point. What we're doing is not working. What do you suggest instead?" And they seem to have few answers for this, other than to do nothing. I can't accept that either. So I don't know. 

But your point about prison sentences is valid and something that I think many conservatives and liberals see eye to eye on...

I agree....many of these hot button communities are Democratically led, and it isnt working. I'm not saying it needs to switch to R, but I would suggest that there is either a flaw in the way these gov'ts are managing things, or if the money is going where it needs to go in the first place. I honestly don't believe that the current welfare system is successful. We are rewarding people for not working and having children that cannot be sustained and then further muddy up the system. I would rather see us move to more tiered approach whereas people can work and earn a wage, yet still be able to collect, just at lower percentages, vs just cutting them off completely. 

But again, it goes back to my 1st post, it is a matter of personal responsibility. We have created communities where very few are productive even within their towns. You want your check, go volunteer and do community service for a few hours. Go take a class at the local community center.

Same for the voter ID situation. (I know, there is a whole other thread and I dont want to get off topic), but why is it that the people who dont work say its too hard to go get an ID? Yet this privileged middle class guy who works 45+ hours a week still finds the time to drag my ### to the DMV to get my #### done? But I bet when the check needs to be cashed, they can squeeze a few minutes into getting that done?

I get it, situations suck in many of these communities, but excuses only go so far. Regardless of my upbringing. I could toss out excuses like "work is too hard" or "no one will hire me so I give up" and I'd find my ### out on the middle class pavement. But I don't...because I'm an adult, not a white or black adult, just an adult who knows that my actions will inevitably be what defines me. 

Edited by glvsav37
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And to just piggy back my post:

We as a nation have had almost 8 years of a Democratic president, and many years of democratic majority. Shouldn't these areas be better?

Back to leadership and role models. We elected our 1st black president. Isn't there a bigger role model to give disenfranchised youth something to hope for?

or is it that no matter what, these communities will never change?

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40 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I have never once called you a racist in this thread. Perhaps you're referring to somebody else? 

I wrote that there is institutionalized racism that exists against young black men in urban areas. I wrote that most of the police are not deliberately racist, but they're trained in a lazy way that leads to racist results. You're free to disagree with me on these two points, but I'm prepared to defend them. Please show me where I called you a racist or a bigot. 

Actually not now.  Your arguments are so stimulated by your political beliefs that you can't see the other side.  For peats sake, you treat me good, I treat you good.  I I'm Irish, white, and never thought about the deal you keep mentioning. I can mention the good friends I have, by name, that are black, but you don't wan't to hear that.   Your political party & you has kept these good people under the guise of "vote for us, it's not your fault".  This has stalled the black movement.  As MLK said " I'm Tired".   So am I of hearing your constant call of racism.  How did go in the hood handing out info grams in the LA area?

Pretty sure if it didn't go so well it's because I'm white & Irish.

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

We need to recognize the inequities, and try to adjust for them. 

How do you plan on adjusting the natural differences in human nature that account for the outcome differences?

It these outcome differences are allegedly all due to inequity then how come we see these similar patterns repeating throughout the world?  Are other nations as allegedly unjust as America or could there be other factors at play?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dm_Vv3Q24uQ

 

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4 minutes ago, Olaf said:

How do you plan on adjusting the natural differences in human nature that account for the outcome differences?

It these outcome differences are allegedly all due to inequity then how come we see these similar patterns repeating throughout the world?  Are other nations as allegedly unjust as America or could there be other factors at play?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dm_Vv3Q24uQ

 

"The natural differences in human nature."

Hope you're reading this Irishidiot, because you accused me of calling you a racist, which I did not. Although I disagree with you on a lot of what you wrote, none of it was racist IMO. 

If you want an example of racism, read the above post. I have no trouble calling Olaf a racist. He is by any standard definition. 

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16 minutes ago, timschochet said:

"The natural differences in human nature."

Hope you're reading this Irishidiot, because you accused me of calling you a racist, which I did not. Although I disagree with you on a lot of what you wrote, none of it was racist IMO. 

If you want an example of racism, read the above post. I have no trouble calling Olaf a racist. He is by any standard definition. 

For acknowledging reality?  OK, I'm racist then.  

But you still didn't answer my questions, refute the content of the video that showed similar patterns throughout the world, nor persuasively argue against the differences that show up time and time again. You just name called.

Interestingly, you're an Ashkenazi Jew.  Ashkenazi Jews have the highest group IQ of any people in the world.  A whole standard deviation higher then us goy.  I mean you clearly bring down that average, but that high average exists.  You honestly don't believe that nature has anything to do with group diffeences in average IQ?  And if discrimination necessarily leads to lower group outcomes then how come a group who has been discriminated against for centuries like Ashkenazi Jews have the highest outcome?

Try to answer with substance and without the name calling this time.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4098351,00.html

 

 

Edited by Olaf
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6 hours ago, SHIZNITTTT said:

Which of us as a young adult or teenager went against the grain?  Really hard to 'break the cycle' when your parent/s don't have any life skills to share with you.  Maybe not a role model around to learn from other than some thugs to learn "keep it real!"    Most kids want to be cool, fit in with your buddies.   I see it everyday with my own twins.  Would be so easy for them to smoke a joint, cigarette, screw some chick willing to give it up to be considered cool by their peers.  

 

 

Quick story -  when I was 11 or 12 years old we had an old rail road track that ran behind our elementary school.  One day my best friend and I were walking along the tracks and my friend picked up a rock and threw it knocking out a pane of glass.  I picked up a rock and did the same thing.  When it was finished we had knocked out around 70 pane glass windows.  Well the janitor saw us "Why the #### he was still at the school I still don't know?" and gave chase.  My friend was faster and got away.  Well I was caught and after my Dad whupped my ### I had to help the janitor that summer replacing the broken glass.  

 

Broken glass = turned over police car.  No one thinks at the moment about what is going to happen at a later time.  Just wanna be cool and hang out with the boys.

I was raised in a trailer when I was younger.  I had heated frozen fish sticks and mushroom soup as a kid every night. But my parents instilled upon me the best morals and values you could ever imagine.  My father, god rest his soul, took two jobs to make ends meet and would later put three of us kids through college.  It all begins at home.  Everything I have today is due to my father.  He did whoop our ### when we ####ed up though but I love him for that.  We grew up in a white "ghetto" but we turned out just fine.  I did stupid things too as a kid but I only messed up once every time because I had good parents.  

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7 hours ago, poopdawg said:

I was raised in a trailer when I was younger.  I had heated frozen fish sticks and mushroom soup as a kid every night. But my parents instilled upon me the best morals and values you could ever imagine.  My father, god rest his soul, took two jobs to make ends meet and would later put three of us kids through college.  It all begins at home.  Everything I have today is due to my father.  He did whoop our ### when we ####ed up though but I love him for that.  We grew up in a white "ghetto" but we turned out just fine.  I did stupid things too as a kid but I only messed up once every time because I had good parents.  

Good story & good upbringing.  I was spanked HARD, right along with my brothers every week.   Can't think of a time where we didn't have it coming.

"We all have it coming, kid"  (Unforgiven-the movie)

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On 5/24/2016 at 1:25 AM, timschochet said:

"The natural differences in human nature."

Hope you're reading this Irishidiot, because you accused me of calling you a racist, which I did not. Although I disagree with you on a lot of what you wrote, none of it was racist IMO. 

If you want an example of racism, read the above post. I have no trouble calling Olaf a racist. He is by any standard definition. 

Tim, you are aware that there are geneticists and evolutionary biologists who acknowledge the reality of race, acknowledge that natural selection has created differences in groups that evolved apart separately, and acknowledge differing allele frequencies in DNA based on ancestry which express themselves different manners, right?
 

What Science Says About Race and Genetics
 
A longstanding orthodoxy among social scientists holds that human races are a social construct and have no biological basis. A related assumption is that human evolution halted in the distant past, so long ago that evolutionary explanations need never be considered by historians or economists.

In the decade since the decoding of the human genome, a growing wealth of data has made clear that these two positions, never at all likely to begin with, are simply incorrect. There is indeed a biological basis for race. And it is now beyond doubt that human evolution is a continuous process that has proceeded vigorously within the last 30,000 years and almost certainly — though very recent evolution is hard to measure — throughout the historical period and up until the present day.

New analyses of the human genome have established that human evolution has been recent, copious, and regional. Biologists scanning the genome for evidence of natural selection have detected signals of many genes that have been favored by natural selection in the recent evolutionary past. No less than 14% of the human genome, according to one estimate, has changed under this recent evolutionary pressure.

Analysis of genomes from around the world establishes that there is a biological basis for race, despite the official statements to the contrary of leading social science organizations. An illustration of the point is the fact that with mixed race populations, such as African Americans, geneticists can now track along an individual’s genome, and assign each segment to an African or European ancestor, an exercise that would be impossible if race did not have some basis in biological reality.

Racism and discrimination are wrong as a matter of principle, not of science. That said, it is hard to see anything in the new understanding of race that gives ammunition to racists. The reverse is the case. Exploration of the genome has shown that all humans, whatever their race, share the same set of genes. Each gene exists in a variety of alternative forms known as alleles, so one might suppose that races have distinguishing alleles, but even this is not the case. A few alleles have highly skewed distributions but these do not suffice to explain the difference between races. The difference between races seems to rest on the subtle matter of relative allele frequencies.  The overwhelming verdict of the genome is to declare the basic unity of humankind.

Genetics and Social Behavior

Human evolution has not only been recent and extensive, it has also been regional. The period of 30,000 to 5,000 years ago, from which signals of recent natural selection can be detected, occurred after the splitting of the three major races, so represents selection that has occurred largely independently within each race. The three principal races are Africans (those who live south of the Sahara), East Asians (Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans), and Caucasians (Europeans and the peoples of the Near East and the Indian subcontinent). In each of these races, a different set of genes has been changed by natural selection. This is just what would be expected for populations that had to adapt to different challenges on each continent. The genes specially affected by natural selection control not only expected traits like skin color and nutritional metabolism, but also some aspects of brain function. Though the role of these selected brain genes is not yet understood, the obvious truth is that genes affecting the brain are just as much subject to natural selection as any other category of gene.

What might be the role of these brain genes favored by natural selection? Edward O. Wilson was pilloried for saying in his 1975 book Sociobiology that humans have many social instincts. But subsequent research has confirmed the idea that we are inherently sociable. From our earliest years we want to belong to a group, conform to its rules and punish those who violate them. Later, our instincts prompt us to make moral judgments and to defend our group, even at the sacrifice of one’s own life.

Anything that has a genetic basis, such as these social instincts, can be varied by natural selection. The power of modifying social instincts is most visible in the case of ants, the organisms that, along with humans, occupy the two pinnacles of social behavior. Sociality is rare in nature because to make a society work individuals must moderate their powerful selfish instincts and become at least partly altruistic. But once a social species has come into being, it can rapidly exploit and occupy new niches just by making minor adjustments in social behavior. Thus both ants and humans have conquered the world, though fortunately at different scales.

Conventionally, these social differences are attributed solely to culture. But if that’s so, why is it apparently so hard for tribal societies like Iraq or Afghanistan to change their culture and operate like modern states? The explanation could be that tribal behavior has a genetic basis. It’s already known that a genetic system, based on the hormone oxytocin, seems to modulate the degree of in-group trust, and this is one way that natural selection could ratchet the degree of tribal behavior up or down.

Human social structures change so slowly and with such difficulty as to suggest an evolutionary influence at work. Modern humans lived for 185,000 years as hunters and gatherers before settling down in fixed communities. Putting a roof over one’s head and being able to own more than one could carry might seem an obvious move. The fact that it took so long suggests that a genetic change in human social behavior was required and took many generations to evolve.

Tribalism seems to be the default mode of human political organization. It can be highly effective: The world’s largest land empire, that of the Mongols, was a tribal organization. But tribalism is hard to abandon, again suggesting that an evolutionary change may be required.

The various races have evolved along substantially parallel paths, but because they have done so independently, it’s not surprising that they have made these two pivotal transitions in social structure at somewhat different times. Caucasians were the first to establish settled communities, some 15,000 years ago, followed by East Asians and Africans. China, which developed the first modern state, shed tribalism two millennia ago, Europe did so only a thousand years ago, and populations in the Middle East and Africa are in the throes of the process.
.........

In his book The Wealth and Poverty of Nations, the economic historian David Landes examines every possible factor for explaining the rise of the West and the stagnation of China and concludes, in essence, that the answer lies in the nature of the people. Landes attributes the decisive factor to culture, but describes culture in such a way as to imply race.

“If we learn anything from the history of economic development, it is that culture makes all the difference,” he writes. “Witness the enterprise of expatriate minorities — the Chinese in East and Southeast Asia, Indians in East Africa, Lebanese in West Africa, Jews and Calvinists throughout much of Europe, and on and on. Yet culture, in the sense of the inner values and attitudes that guide a population, frightens scholars. It has a sulfuric odor of race and inheritance, an air of immutability.”

Sulfuric odor or not, the culture of each race is what Landes suggests has made the difference in economic development. The data gathered by Clark on declining rates of violence and increasing rates of literacy from 1200 to 1800 provide some evidence for a genetic component to culture and social institutions.

Though equivalent data does not exist for the Chinese population, China’s society has been distinctive for at least 2,000 years and intense pressures on survival would have adapted the Chinese to their society just as Europeans became adapted to theirs.

Do Chinese carry genes for conformism and authoritarian rule? May Europeans have alleles that favor open societies and the rule of law? Obviously this is unlikely to be the case. But there is almost certainly a genetic component to the propensity for following society’s rules and punishing those who violate them. If Europeans were slightly less inclined to punish violators and Chinese slightly more so, that could explain why European societies are more tolerant of dissenters and innovators, and Chinese societies less so. Because the genes that govern rule following and punishment of violators have not yet been identified, it is not yet known if these do in fact vary in European and Chinese populations in the way suggested. Nature has many dials to twist in setting the intensities of the various human social behaviors and many different ways of arriving at the same solution.

For most of recorded history, Chinese civilization has been pre-eminent and it’s reasonable to assume that the excellence of Chinese institutions rests on a mix of culture and inherited social behavior.

The rise of the West, too, is unlikely to have been just some cultural accident. As European populations became adapted to the geographic and military conditions of their particular ecological habitat, they produced societies that have turned out to be more innovative and productive than others, at least under present circumstances.

That does not of course mean that Europeans are superior to others — a meaningless term in any case from the evolutionary perspective – any more than Chinese were superior to others during their heyday. China’s more authoritarian society may once again prove more successful, particularly in the wake of some severe environmental stress.


From:  KKK Newsletter #451 (Actually TIME Magazine)

By:  David Duke (Actually Nicholas Wade, the former New York Times Science Editor)

 
Tim, I've never personally encountered someone as close-minded on the science of evolution as you.  You're like a religious fundamentalist whose dogmatic and often angry opposition to evolution is based on faith and strict adherence to an ideology rather than on facts and reason.  You just have a different religion/ideology that you cling to, but the same end result.  You are the intolerant fundamentalist that you claim to abhor.  Leo would not be proud.
Edited by Olaf

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On 5/24/2016 at 11:40 PM, glvsav37 said:

And to just piggy back my post:

We as a nation have had almost 8 years of a Democratic president, and many years of democratic majority. Shouldn't these areas be better?

Back to leadership and role models. We elected our 1st black president. Isn't there a bigger role model to give disenfranchised youth something to hope for?

or is it that no matter what, these communities will never change?

Bottom line is that kids will do what their friends do, it's a process that takes years, is set in stone, and you can't patch in adult leadership and role models afterwards to undo it.   I strongly believe that even if you plop amazing opportunities in front of these kids, where they can sign up and punch their own ticket, no discrimination even possible because everyone is hired, they will self-discriminate themselves out of the opportunity to conform to the group (I have an example of this).  The only way to fix it is to tear it all down and rebuild from scratch.  Same way a country like Venezuela has to start over.  Sometimes things just get too broken to fix.  

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20 hours ago, Olaf said:

As European populations became adapted to the geographic and military conditions of their particular ecological habitat, they produced societies that have turned out to be more innovative and productive than others, at least under present circumstances.

This arguing back from superficiality is as old as racism, it is racism.

And look, I have a pretty broad view of racism, and I happen to believe that belief in race is racism and ordaining legislation of any kind on the basis of race (aside from laws preventing such) are indeed also racism because they automatically require definition of race which ultimately rely on Jim Crow era concepts which we have supposedly explicitly rejected.

But this stuff is as old as the classical racism of the 19th and 18th centuries, that is we know that there are racial cultural racial differences because duh look at how far advanced the 'white race' is, then argue backward to find the 'science' to justify that. SOS really.

I don't know why this has to arise in the middle of a discussion about the Gray trials, but it seems to be part of the surprising and bizarre threading of formerly supremacist, extreme concepts into normal society during this past presidential campaign year, anyway here is more info:

Quote

The Dangerous New Scientific Racism

https://newrepublic.com/article/117884/nicholas-wades-troublesome-inheritance-new-scientific-racism

 

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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3 hours ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I don't know why this has to arise in the middle of a discussion about the Gray trials,

That's simple.  Tim was taking his usual position of saying that the group outcome differences that we see in Baltimore and elsewhere are completely the product of institutional racism.  That's simply not true and is a dangerous narrative that must be eradicated for two reasons: (1) it will never solve the issues of those communities; and (2) it engenders hostility toward people who are not responsible for those outcome differences.

If you guys want to throw out the "racism" label, blaming outside groups for outcomes that they are not responsible for is a form of "racism" (though that term is meaningless since it is used in so many ways that it no longer has any true meaning.)

Discover Magazine: "The history of a population affects it genome, and its genome effects the nature of its traits and diseases."

Edited by Olaf

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On 5/24/2016 at 9:26 PM, irishidiot said:

Yes again.  I don't have a racist bone in my body.  Never had, never will.   

LOL.  This reminds me of someone saying "no disrespect, but . . ." (in which case, yes, disrespect is meant).

 

I imaging a situation where you had to line up a group of people, and the only thing you knew about them is that some of them said: "I don't have a racist bone in my body" and some didn't.

 

If I then had to categorize them into "racist" and "non-racist," I know who I'm putting in the "racist" bucket.

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On 5/23/2016 at 5:02 PM, irishidiot said:

Same old crap regarding your,: " I'm sick of people who haven't lived through racism and poverty expecting everyone to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps".  We were poor( 8 kids in 13 years) but dad hung around & worked 3 jobs.   Also your;  "Their problem is our problem,  your responsibility ".  You & your racism junk is really getting old.  It's like your better than most because of your racism calls.   So tired, so old, and simply pathetic.  I have a suggestion.   As you live close to some of these dangerous areas why don't you get off your high horse & go door to door in the hood & pass out info sheets on how they can turn their lives around.  Looks to me like you have some spare time on your hands, give it a whirl & report back.

Also  O mighty one,  give me some suggestions on how I contributed to the plight of the blacks & inner city crime, & just how I can help.

 

You could start by actually seeing things through somebody's eyes.  

 

Edit: that is a serious response.  I think understanding the anger and discontent from the black community would be a good step for white folks to take.  From there . . . I'm not sure.

Edited by Sweet J

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6 minutes ago, Sweet J said:

LOL.  This reminds me of someone saying "no disrespect, but . . ." (in which case, yes, disrespect is meant).

 

I imaging a situation where you had to line up a group of people, and the only thing you knew about them is that some of them said: "I don't have a racist bone in my body" and some didn't.

 

If I then had to categorize them into "racist" and "non-racist," I know who I'm putting in the "racist" bucket.

Your right.   I shouldn't have to defend myself. but it's hard not to feel personally insulted.    Actually in the scheme of ideas the race card is used when the argument fails.   I get it.

Do you?

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1 minute ago, irishidiot said:

Your right.   I shouldn't have to defend myself. but it's hard not to feel personally insulted.    Actually in the scheme of ideas the race card is used when the argument fails.   I get it.

Do you?

I'm not quite sure what you are referring to.  I think the idea of bias, racism, prejudice, etc. are pretty complicated stuff.  I do my best to think about the biases and prejudices I have.  I my daughter brought a gangster-looking black guy home I wouldn't be happy.  Would I be less happy than if she brought home a white-trashy-redneck?  I dunno.  But it's there, I guess.

I happen to work for a place that has a racial criterion for promotion (i.e., this particular race/designation gets a "preference" for hiring and promotion; a designation that I am not a part of).  I once was lamenting to a friend/coworker about my lack of options for advancement.  And she said something along the lines of: "Yeah, it must be real tough being a tall, straight, white male."

It gave me food for thought.  I do think that there happen to be a ton of teeny almost infinitesimal situations in life where being white, being straight, being male (i.e., being "typical" in America), gives me a slight advantage when dealing with a whole host of situations. From interactions with Police, to job interviews, to conversations at work, to my ability to take "risks" at work, to my ability to act outside of the "norm" or expected behaviors without being judged, to . . . well, probably hundreds or thousands of things. 

So I do think that being white in this country is a big deal.  And being a "person of color" could be a real difficulty.  

I don't have much to say about a "race card" kind of thing.  That term generally seems to get used by a white person who feels somehow "wronged" in a situation to do with race.  I don't love the term because I think there may be more precise ways of expressing what you want to say.

Anyway, hope that responds to your question. 

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