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Gary Coal Man

Baltimore: The Next Ferguson?

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30 minutes ago, Sweet J said:

LOL.  This reminds me of someone saying "no disrespect, but . . ." (in which case, yes, disrespect is meant).

 

I imaging a situation where you had to line up a group of people, and the only thing you knew about them is that some of them said: "I don't have a racist bone in my body" and some didn't.

 

If I then had to categorize them into "racist" and "non-racist," I know who I'm putting in the "racist" bucket.

Why would you categorize any of them as a racist?

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Just now, jonessed said:

Why would you categorize any of them as a racist?

That was mostly a joke, really.  But if I had to think about real life situations, the only time I've heard people state "I'm not a racist" was immediately after or immediately before they do or say something racisty. 

 

FOR EXAMPLE:  Can't we all agree that it is more likely that Michael Richards says "I'm not a racist!" than Jerry Seinfeld or Jason Alexander?

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2 minutes ago, Sweet J said:

That was mostly a joke, really.  But if I had to think about real life situations, the only time I've heard people state "I'm not a racist" was immediately after or immediately before they do or say something racisty. 

 

FOR EXAMPLE:  Can't we all agree that it is more likely that Michael Richards says "I'm not a racist!" than Jerry Seinfeld or Jason Alexander?

Depends if Tim just accused Jerry or Jason of being a racist. 

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11 minutes ago, Sweet J said:

That was mostly a joke, really.  But if I had to think about real life situations, the only time I've heard people state "I'm not a racist" was immediately after or immediately before they do or say something racisty. 

 

FOR EXAMPLE:  Can't we all agree that it is more likely that Michael Richards says "I'm not a racist!" than Jerry Seinfeld or Jason Alexander?

You say it was mostly a joke, but then you go right back to it.  I'm not getting the impression that it was a joke.

It doesn't matter I guess.  It just seemed an odd way to label people as racists.

Edited by jonessed

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22 minutes ago, jonessed said:

You say it was mostly a joke, but then you go right back to it.  I'm not getting the impression that it was a joke.

 

If you don't know where I'm coming from after my two or three posts, I don't if this post will help. But I'll try again.  

What I said is an observation, it sounds about right to me, and it's kind of funny, but I haven't done any empirical effing research about it, and I absolutely could be wrong.  If you want to go around saying "I'm not a racist" have at it, but understand how you will come across to a lot of people.  Hell, I'll even back down from it; it's more like understand how you'll come across to me.

That doesn't make you or anyone who wants to declare their non-racism a racist, I think it's just a weird thing to say.

And for the record, I don't love it when people say that "minorities can't be racist" and say that the true definition of racism has some sort of tie to the power dynamic (i.e., something like "racism = prejudice + power").  To me, that is just a stupid etymological discussion of a word, rather than discussing what people are really trying to connect about.

Edited by Sweet J

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I don't believe I have heard it outside of a response to someone making an accusation.  In that context, it seems a pretty rational retort.

Maybe that puts them in a catch-22 though.

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21 minutes ago, jonessed said:

I don't believe I have heard it outside of a response to someone making an accusation.  In that context, it seems a pretty rational retort.

Maybe that puts them in a catch-22 though.

To be fair, I think the discussion of whether or not a person is a racist is not-really compelling to me, because I'm not sure it's really all that meaningful.  When discussing how the government should operate with respect to things that have an effect on race/class, the discussion should really be on whether or not the policy is a net positive to society (or even just parts of society).

When discussing a person's "actions," or "words," I guess that you could have a conversation about whether or not a person is racist, but that isn't really that helpful, either.  I think a lot of white people have a hard time truly putting themselves in the life of a black person, but that doesn't really mean they are racist - they just aren't coming at an issue from the same place as someone else. And a lot of black people have anger and resentment about historical (and current) treatment of blacks.  That doesn't mean that they are being "reverse racist" (whatever that is), it just means they are coming from a particular place.

I don't know what to tell you about someone being called racist.  That sucks.  And being accused of it would certainly make it harder to slow down and put yourself in someone else's shoes.  But I will say that it doesn't strike me as a particularly useful retort, because it doesn't really advance the ball. 

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And two of the charged cops are now suing Mosby for defamation.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/freddie-gray/bs-md-ci-gray-officers-sue-mosby-20160525-story.html

 

- I think this may be about to go the way of the Rolling Stone / UVA case. Just wait until these cops get their discovery.

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22 hours ago, Olaf said:

That's simple.  Tim was taking his usual position of saying that the group outcome differences that we see in Baltimore and elsewhere are completely the product of institutional racism.  That's simply not true and is a dangerous narrative that must be eradicated for two reasons: (1) it will never solve the issues of those communities; and (2) it engenders hostility toward people who are not responsible for those outcome differences.

If you guys want to throw out the "racism" label, blaming outside groups for outcomes that they are not responsible for is a form of "racism" (though that term is meaningless since it is used in so many ways that it no longer has any true meaning.)

Discover Magazine: "The history of a population affects it genome, and its genome effects the nature of its traits and diseases."

Well I don't have to agree with Tim either.

I do think the effects of slavery and segregation are real though, but I don't think I go all the way to buying into 'institutional racism' as being 'the' cause for what ails inner Baltimore and cities like it. Reality is black (and white) families used to be more stable and in my opinion urban planning and social policy decisions on a local level have oftentimes been disastrous. - Here in NO a well known decision was to put up the I-10 extension through a successful, historic black neighborhood, it was a beautiful highlight of NO, it is now a wreck, a problem area. That's just an example, I bet Baltimore has some. These were the disciples of Robert Moses.

However, I'm not sure how you feel about federal policy but if you argue against the social policies in recent decades in any way for what has happened it seems contradictory to also blame genetics. One of my big problems with taking the science you offer to the level of eugenics (which in my opinion is where you're going) is that it escalates to not only personal views but also social policy ones which require saying persons of a given racial classification will and must act in a particular manner so therefore social policies must be adjusted to reflect that. This is extremely problematic from a social point of view but it is also wrong on a factual, personal level and also on a moral level.

I will say though it is at least intellectually consistent, I think one problem that people on the far left have is that they are not intellectually consistent on this, if you believe in "race" then a whole lot of things follow if you do follow that, there is no better example of this than the 1935 Nuremberg Laws. I know that carries freight, a lot of it, but reality is you won't find a better/worse process for assessing and determining race, and if so, then what? What for? If people want to institute policies based on race to counter "institutional racism" and if they do that then they must also, just like the far right, begin by determining who belongs to which 'race'.

To me it is a deep, ugly, socially, morally and scientifically unsupportable rabbit hole. If you want to say trivial fun things like my great great grandfather was a social convivial man who enjoyed beer and salty seafood and all his heirs are like that too, fine, but please don't get into the 'all Irish are prone to drinking and fighting' routine and the like - which this is in essence (just fill in a different 'race' and characteristic) - because if it does not apply to all Irish (just an example, and hypothetically) what is the point of raising it in the first place, at least in the context of social policy? The whole thing crumbles quickly.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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What I think would help cities like Baltimore (and my own) in their dysfunctional inner areas are: rezoning, encouraging real estate development, gentrification, charter schools, and enough policing to be both responsible and ensure safety.

That does not mean driving poor people out or minorities, it means creating a mix, something closer to normal levels of income and interactivity, that is a functioning society is that because it lives and works together, so do that.  And I would add we should start determining how to reestablish two married parents as the family unit norm because however we may feel about how ok it is to not do that it really does in my opinion help young boys and young men to have a father who is their 'father' around.

I'm also a big believer in sports as a means of societal benefit so youth sports programs should be funded to the hilt. My thing is I volunteer in a soccer program here in NO. This was part of a former city agency for recreation which had gone to pot and which today is a private/public partnership which has revitalized parks and neighborhoods, or that is the goal anyway and in some places it happens. If you take back parks and playgrounds that is a big deal. Of course you need cops, plenty of them and good ones, to do that.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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I'm interested in what you have to say, but can we have a paragraph break or two?

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1 hour ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

And two of the charged cops are now suing Mosby for defamation.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/freddie-gray/bs-md-ci-gray-officers-sue-mosby-20160525-story.html

 

- I think this may be about to go the way of the Rolling Stone / UVA case. Just wait until these cops get their discovery.

I would be interested in seeing some of the behind-the-scenes political wrangling that went on to get this to trial.

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8 minutes ago, Sweet J said:

I'm interested in what you have to say, but can we have a paragraph break or two?

If that's for me, ok thanks, I will edit...

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2 minutes ago, jonessed said:

I would be interested in seeing some of the behind-the-scenes political wrangling that went on to get this to trial.

Oh I think we are going to see some amazing things once the documents are made public.

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58 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

What I think would help cities like Baltimore (and my own) in their dysfunctional inner areas are: rezoning, encouraging real estate development, gentrification, charter schools, and enough policing to be both responsible and ensure safety. That does not mean driving poor people out or minorities, it means creating a mix, something closer to normal levels of income and interactivity, that is a functioning society is that because it lives and works together, so do that.  And I would add we should start determining how to reestablish two married parents as the family unit norm because however we may feel about how ok it is to not do that it really does in my opinion help young boys and young men to have a father who is their 'father' around. I'm also a big believer in sports as a means of societal benefit so youth sports programs should be funded to the hilt. My thing is I volunteer in a soccer program here in NO. This was a former city agency for recreation which had gone to pot and which today is a private/public partnership which had revitalized parks and neighborhoods, or that is the goal anyway and in some places it happens. If you take back parks and playgrounds that is a big deal. Of course you need cops, plenty of them and good ones, to do that.

Our social services are structured in a way that promotes single parent households for the poor.  This was actually brought up as a concern when Medicaid was created, but it was felt the social stigma of being unmarried with kids would be too much to overcome.  They were obviously wrong.

I don't see it changing anytime soon, nor do I see the cycle of poverty changing until it does.  A sad state of affairs.

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7 minutes ago, jonessed said:

Our social services are structured in a way that promotes single parent households for the poor.  This was actually brought up as a concern when Medicaid was created, but it was felt the social stigma of being unmarried with kids would be too much to overcome.  They were obviously wrong.

I don't see it changing anytime soon, nor do I see the cycle of poverty changing until it does.  A sad state of affairs.

One lingering effect of Katrina in NO is that many young men were essentially abandoned by their families, whatever that might have been. They were young men growing up in NO, with no school and zero parental guidance. The social effects were real.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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1 hour ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

What I think would help cities like Baltimore (and my own) in their dysfunctional inner areas are: rezoning, encouraging real estate development, gentrification, charter schools, and enough policing to be both responsible and ensure safety.

That does not mean driving poor people out or minorities, it means creating a mix, something closer to normal levels of income and interactivity, that is a functioning society is that because it lives and works together, so do that.  And I would add we should start determining how to reestablish two married parents as the family unit norm because however we may feel about how ok it is to not do that it really does in my opinion help young boys and young men to have a father who is their 'father' around.

I'm also a big believer in sports as a means of societal benefit so youth sports programs should be funded to the hilt. My thing is I volunteer in a soccer program here in NO. This was part of a former city agency for recreation which had gone to pot and which today is a private/public partnership which has revitalized parks and neighborhoods, or that is the goal anyway and in some places it happens. If you take back parks and playgrounds that is a big deal. Of course you need cops, plenty of them and good ones, to do that.

Forced desegregation of schools. Most effective way to enact change. 

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13 minutes ago, whoknew said:

Forced desegregation of schools. Most effective way to enact change. 

Forced bussing didn't work.  Unless you plan on seizing people's homes and redistributing them I don't see how you are going to create perfect, racially mixed neighborhoods.

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7 minutes ago, jonessed said:

Forced bussing didn't work.  Unless you plan on seizing people's homes and redistributing them I don't see how you are going to create perfect, racially mixed neighborhoods.

Why do you think it didn't work?

Link 1

Link 2

This American Life part 1    Part 2

 

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Hundreds of African American kids have been gathering every afternoon at Mondawmin since this verdict was announced.

Then they get on their buses and go home.

City has been very calm and quiet in the wake of the verdict announcements. I will always regret the forced confrontation that police precipitated at the Mondawmin transportation hub last April.

I agree that most of the charges by Mosby were terrible overreaches. She's going to get hers at the voting booth next time, just like her husband did in his aborted Mayoral campaign, just like the Mayor would have if she hadn't jumped out of the race before she got humiliated. None of that changes the fact that an American citizen, committing no crime, was disappeared into the back of a windowless van by armed authorities of the state, and came out with fatal injuries. Do we just shrug our shoulders at that and say too bad? That nobody was to blame? As a libertarian, I can't buy that.

On 05/23/2016 at 5:27 PM, The Z Machine said:

I'm just hoping this city stays chill for a bit.  I gotta ride my bike home through downtown right now.

Hey, as much as I like Baltimore, be careful with that. Ever since the uprising, crime has been out of control in Baltimore. The cops really are just phoning it in at this point. I'm sure you're aware of various gangs of teens and how they seem to be targeting bicyclists as much as anyone else.

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Listen to what The_Man said (I'm a McCartney fan - sue me).

This ain't a 100%/0% situation. It's not a sporting event. It's not "they're wrong and we're right". It's a very complicated, ####ed up situation with centuries of bias built in. This #### isn't going to be resolved in my lifetime nor, I'm sorry to say, the lifetimes of anyone posting here.

 

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3 minutes ago, jonessed said:

Because it wasn't a real long-term solution for most areas.  People simply moved.  How far are you willing to make kids sit on a bus?  Hours?

What do you mean by that? Is there evidence of people moving from one area to another because of school deseg? And this had a negative effect on the black students?

Because the studies I've seen have shown clearly that black kids who attended desegregated schools did much better in school and that advantage maintained in the next generation.

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I mean, don't get me wrong - I get why people don't like it. If I had kids and I was told they were going to be bussed into rough, poor inner city schools, I'd probably see if I could send my kids to private school. But not everyone could do that. So there will be some desegregation. And that seems to be hugely beneficial.

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2 minutes ago, Uruk-Hai said:

Listen to what The_Man said (I'm a McCartney fan - sue me).

This ain't a 100%/0% situation. It's not a sporting event. It's not "they're wrong and we're right". It's a very complicated, ####ed up situation with centuries of bias built in. This #### isn't going to be resolved in my lifetime nor, I'm sorry to say, the lifetimes of anyone posting here.

 

Well, the Baltimore leadership ####ed it up more.

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4 minutes ago, whoknew said:

What do you mean by that? Is there evidence of people moving from one area to another because of school deseg? And this had a negative effect on the black students?

Because the studies I've seen have shown clearly that black kids who attended desegregated schools did much better in school and that advantage maintained in the next generation.

White flight occurred in most urban areas during that time.  Maybe you can try to force bus kids around the cities, but I don't see how you can easily get kids between suburban and urban areas.

It's not going to happen anyway.

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On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 3:54 PM, timschochet said:

I'm sure a lot of people will agree with your post. To me it's too easy. I'm betting that you didn't grow up in a poor black family in a high crime urban neighborhood. I certainly didn't. In my view, those that escape that situation are remarkable, to be admired. Those that succumb to it are not blameless, but not entirely culpable either.

You say you are sick of these people depending on leaders. I'm sick of people who haven't lived through racism and poverty expecting everyone to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps." Their misery is OUR problem, OUR responsibility. 

the Irish did it.

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8 minutes ago, jonessed said:

Well, the Baltimore leadership ####ed it up more.

Good one! Dodge ball at recess, in case you didn't get the word.

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The answer is clearly that the people of Baltimore need to start electing some liberals to fix the mess. 

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5 minutes ago, Hang 10 said:

The answer is clearly that the people of Baltimore need to start electing some liberals to fix the mess. 

I think the situation requires more guns.

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6 minutes ago, Two Deep said:

the Irish did it.

So did the Italians, the Jews, the Chinese, etc. and they didn't have huge social services programs to lean on.

If your parent(s) don't value education you are pretty much ####ed.  No amount of school bussing or free money can overcome that.

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2 minutes ago, jonessed said:

So did the Italians, the Jews, the Chinese, etc. and they didn't have huge social services programs to lean on.

If your parent(s) don't value education you are pretty much ####ed.  No amount of school bussing or free money can overcome that.

Are you sure about that?

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2 hours ago, whoknew said:

What do you mean by that? Is there evidence of people moving from one area to another because of school deseg? And this had a negative effect on the black students?

Because the studies I've seen have shown clearly that black kids who attended desegregated schools did much better in school and that advantage maintained in the next generation.

I do think all schools should be desegregated (and our colleges too) but I am perplexed how 50 years in this is still happening. Lots of schools here were 90%+ black before Katrina and the main thing that has changed that is the charter system which has used things other than busing and line drawing to attract students to specialized schools. But in order to do that they had to leave the traditional school system.

We have truly endemic problems but that doesn't mean new strategies shouldn't be tried or that our goal shouldn't be for real visible improvement in our micro local level within reasonably short periods of time.

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54 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

FYI, no disruptions of any kind that I could see or hear about for me in BMore.

And meanwhile CNN and MSNBC were showing video of unrest that happened 13 months ago while reporting the news of this week's verdict.  They just couldn't stand to show scenes of an entire city going about its business with no riots.

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3 hours ago, whoknew said:

Are you sure about that?

I'm guessing that jonessed is sure that bussing and forced integration will not work because he's a sharp guy.  I'm also sure that it won't work because I've read the reports and data that show that it hasn't worked.  The achievement gap between white and black students continues to persist regardless of the methods tried to alleviate it.  (Achievement Gap Between White and Black Students Still Gaping, U.S. News & World Report, January 13, 2016)

More important than two guys on the internet (no matter how well read they may be on the subject), James S. Coleman agrees with us.  Coleman was the distinguished professor of education sociology at Johns Hopkins University who conducted the survey of educational inequalities per the Civil Rights Act of 1964.  Coleman's work was entitled Equality of Educational Opportunity ("the Coleman report" in common parlance).  Coleman promoted an integrationist solution to the achievement gap.  After over a decade of return data Coleman admitted that his findings indicated that bussing black students to majority white schools did not have a substantial effect on closing the achievement gap, but it did often bring down the environment and overall performance of the majority white classrooms thus causing white flight from those schools.

The following is from a review of The Long Crusade: Profiles in Education Reform, 1967-2014 by Raymond Wolters.   Wolters is a Professor of History Emertius at the University of Deleware.  He has written extensively on education and race.

Apologies in advance to anyone who may be offended by the word "Negro".  It's used several times in the below passages which contain direct quotes from the 60s.

.........................

Pursuant to the original understanding of Brown, by the late 1960s, the great majority of American public school students were being assigned on a racially non-discriminatory basis. This was usually accomplished in one of two ways. Either students were assigned to schools close to their homes or they were allowed to attend whatever school they chose. By assigning students by neighborhood rather than race or by allowing students to choose their school, school districts satisfied the requirements of Brown and the Civil Rights Act. Students were no longer being assigned on a racial basis. Yet neither policy achieved a racial mix in school enrollments that approximated the demographic proportions in the larger region. Enrollments in neighborhood schools turned out to be either mostly White or mostly Black because most Whites and Blacks lived in neighborhoods that were inhabited predominantly by people of their own race. Enrollments in choice schools were also skewed because most students did not wish to attend a school in which their race would be a minority.

Thus Blacks were liberated from the stigma of official separation. But, as it turned out, mere desegregation did not narrow the racial gap in academic achievement. On most standardized tests, almost 85 percent of the Black students continued to score below the average White.

 

2.

Why did the academic achievement gap persist? In the late 1950s and early 1960s, the most common explanation held that disproportionately Black schools were inadequately funded. With this in mind, the 1964 Civil Rights Act provided one million dollars for a survey of educational inequalities. According to Alexander Mood, the director of the statistical center at the federal Office of Education, it was assumed “that the schools in the cores of cities and in the rural South are inferior in terms of class size, teacher training, enrichment and remedial programs, and per pupil expenditures.” The research turned out to be so comprehensive and of such high quality that it superseded all previous work on school desegregation. EntitledEquality of Educational Opportunity (1966) and popularly known as “the Coleman report” for its principal author, James S. Coleman, then a professor of educational sociology at Johns Hopkins University, the study presented detailed information on 4,000 schools and test results from 570,000 students and 60,000 teachers. The report was of especially high quality because Coleman was the foremost mathematical sociologist of his age. His sophisticated statistical analysis of the quantitative information was evident on page after page.[8]

The Coleman report reinforced two aspects of conventional thinking. It showed that the familiar disparity in test scores was still in place. And it showed that, as of 1966, the races were still disproportionately educated apart from one another. Eighty percent of all White pupils in the first and twelfth grades attended schools that were between 90 to 100 percent White; while 65 percent of all African-American first graders attended schools that were at least 90 percent Black, and 48 percent of Black high school seniors attended schools that were at least half Black.

In another respect, however, the data contradicted the conventional wisdom. At the outset of the research, Coleman had predicted, “the study will show the difference in the quality of schools that the average Negro child and the average white child are exposed to.” Speaking to a reporter, Coleman had said:

You know yourself that the difference is going to be striking. And even though everybody knows there is a lot of difference between suburban and inner-city schools, once the statistics are there in black and white, they will have more impact.

Yet to Coleman’s surprise, when the data were assembled, they indicated that by 1966 there was substantial equality in facilities and other measureable resources at majority-Black and majority-White schools. Predominantly Black and White schools had the same average number of teachers per pupil, similar pay scales, and teachers with almost the same amount of formal education and teaching experience. Put simply, by 1966, the nation had achieved the traditional notion of equality of educational opportunity.[9]

And yet, on standardized tests the academic achievement gaps had hardly budged. The average African-American student still scored below 85 percent of White students. Put differently, at age six, the average Black lagged behind the average White by one grade level, and by grade 12, the gap separating the racial averages had increased to four grade levels. Coleman understood that the report was “tread[ing] on sensitive ground.” The differences could “lead to invidious comparisons between groups” and, even worse, might “lend [support] to racist arguments of genetic differences in intelligence.” Nevertheless, Coleman decided that it would be a mistake not to mention the gap in academic achievement. “It is precisely the avoidance of such sensitive areas that can perpetuate the educational deficiencies.”[10]

 

3.

To make his report more palatable, Coleman phrased a summary of the report to emphasize a correlation that recommended racially balanced integration as a reform that eventually might reduce the size of the academic achievement gaps. As he pored over the statistics and test results, Coleman noted that Black children who attended majority-White schools scored higher than other Blacks. The difference was small, but Coleman also gave interviews and filed legal depositions in which he touted the benefits that Black children received when they were dispersed and educated in predominantly White classrooms. This eventually became the most widely reported finding of the Coleman report. “One of the report’s principal conclusions,” the N_ew York Times_ stated, “was that integration was by far the most important school-related factor in improving the achievement of poor children.”[11]

Coleman’s integrationist sociology assumed that the quality of a school depended largely on its youth culture and that middle-class schools were better. Since “White” was presumed to be synonymous with “middle class” and “Black” the same as “lower class,” the purpose of integration was to create schools with enough White students to shape the prevailing attitudes and a substantial number of Black children to benefit from being exposed to peers who recognized the importance of schoolwork. Coleman explained that the social composition of a student body influenced academic achievement.

Sitting next to a child who is performing at a high level provides a challenge to better performance. The psychological environment may be less comfortable for a lower-class child … but he learns more.

According to Coleman, predominantly-Black schools were problematic because Black students did not offer one another as much beneficial peer stimulation as was available in mostly White schools. And this was important because, Coleman said, the socioeconomic background of fellow students was more important than the quality of teachers or the other resources that schools provided.[12]

Eventually, the Supreme Court joined this chorus. In Green v. New Kent County (1968) and in subsequent opinions of the early 1970s, the High Court redefined “desegregation” to mean what Congress, in the 1964 Civil Rights Act, said it did not mean–“the assignment of students to public schools in order to overcome racial imbalance.” For the next 25 years, the Court held that Brown, when illuminated by modern social science, required the assignment of students by race to ensure that the mix of races at individual schools would be approximately the same as the proportions that existed in the overall school district (and sometimes in an even larger region). The constitutional mandate was changed from prohibiting racial discrimination that separated the races to requiring racial discrimination in order to achieve racial mixture.[13]

It turned out, though, that Coleman’s sociological theorizing missed the mark. The racial differences in test scores persisted when Black and White students were mixed in proportionate numbers

 

4.

The persistence of the academic achievement gap prompted Coleman to reconsider his research. When he had initially collected data in 1965, Coleman later noted, nearly all the Black children attending integrated schools in the South had been volunteers who had enrolled under freedom-of-choice plans, while almost all integration in the North had occurred in neighborhood schools where Blacks and Whites lived in the same vicinity. The desegregated Black students of 1965 were not representative of Blacks as a group. They were unusual, in that they came disproportionately from middle-class families that considered education important. They had either volunteered to attend mostly White schools or had lived in mostly White neighborhoods. In 1978, Coleman admitted that it had been “wishful thinking” to believe that other Black students would make similar scores if they were integrated under mandatory court orders. Yet Coleman did not have much to recant, for the improvement that he had noted in 1966 had been quite small.[14]

In 1975, Coleman also came to recognize the significance of an important demographic trend. After analyzing data from 20 large school districts, Coleman concluded that court-ordered busing fostered “resegregation” by increasing the incidence of “White flight.” Coleman reported that the more Blacks enrolled in a school system, the more Whites left. Specifically, he found that after a tipping point had been reached, an increase of five percent in the average White child’s Black classmates would cause an additional 10 percent of White families to leave. Thus the nation faced an insoluble dilemma. There would be no racially balanced integration without court-ordered busing, but such busing had the overall effect of defeating integration. The official push for school integration was offset by the actions of White families who moved from areas where there was a large enrollment of Black students to areas where there was less racial mixing.[15]

After documenting the extent of the flight, Coleman offered an explanation that infuriated erstwhile allies in the civil-rights movement. He said that in the 1960s he had mistakenly assumed that if middle-class students remained in the majority, they would continue to set the tone for an integrated school. “In that situation, both white and black children would learn.” As it happened, however, “the characteristics of the lower-class black classroom” often took over and constituted the values of the integrated school, even if middle-class students remained in the majority. Middle-class parents then transferred their children to private schools or moved to predominantly White suburbs. The problem, Coleman said, was “the degree of disorder and the degree to which schools … have failed to control lower-class black children.” It was “quite understandable,” Coleman said, for middle-class families “not to want to send their children to schools where 90 percent of the time is spent not on instruction but on discipline.”[16]

Coleman’s report on on White flight riled integrationists. “In 1966, we cited you as proof that [integration] worked,” NAACP attorney Charles Morgan told Coleman in 1975. “We don’t cite you as proof any more.” Perhaps because Coleman had formerly been their ally, perhaps because he had spoken candidly about the misbehavior of Black students, and perhaps because of fear that Coleman’s comments on White flight would spark additional criticism of racially balanced integration, the NAACP’s chief executive, Roy Wilkins, denounced Coleman’s traitorous “defection.” The civil rights establishment went to work on the media. Ultimately, Coleman’s earlier endorsement of activist integration became a meme in popular discourse, whereas his mature reassessment was ignored. In 1966, journalists lauded Coleman’s first report as “firm evidence” for busing and generally treated Coleman himself “as a giant in his field, a social scientist with a progressive agenda.” Then, after Coleman’s report on White flight, liberal thought leaders “turned hostile,” “questioned [Coleman’s] findings, ”and “frequently quoted critics.”[17]

One of these critics was Alfred McClung Lee, the president of the American Sociological Association. Lee used his position to denounce Coleman at a press conference and then asked the Ethics Committee of the association to censure Coleman. Still later, Lee asked the general membership of the organization to condemn Coleman (which never occurred). Coleman eventually confronted his critics at a plenary session of the association, at which the walls were plastered with posters bearing his name, Nazi swastikas, and various epithets. For some time thereafter, Coleman suffered through what he called “a tortured period of intellectual isolation.” “We should not forget,“ he later wrote, “how strong the consensus was at that time among social scientists that bussing was an unalloyed benefit, and a policy not to be questioned.”[18]

Despite White flight, most civil-rights activists persisted with demands for racially balanced Integration. In 1984, Jennifer Hochschild, then a professor at Princeton, called for “democracy” to give way to “liberalism.” Since many middle-class parents would not voluntarily send their children to racially balanced schools, Hochschild urged courts to insist that they do so. Quoting John Dewey, Hochschild maintained, “What the best and wisest parent wants for his child, that must the community want for all its children.” If most Americans would not choose to have racially balanced schools, “they must permit elites to make that choice for them.” James Liebman, a Columbia professor who worked on several school-integration cases for the NAACP, explained that one goal was to withdraw control from parents and give children “a wider range of choices about the persons with whom they might associate and the values they might adopt as they approach adulthood.” According to Liebman, a principal purpose of busing was to deny parents the right to send their children to schools that would reinforce “the personal features and values those parents have chosen as their own.” Liebman urged the government to protect the “autonomy” of children from the “tyranny” of parents. The state should make sure that children were exposed to “a broader range of value options than their parents could hope to provide.” According to Liebman, “family life” was too often “marked by exclusiveness, suspicion and jealousy as to those without.” In 2006, 563 social scientists signed a statement that assured the Supreme Court that racially balanced integration improved the “critical thinking skills” and boosted the “achievement levels of African American students.” [19]

By then, however, the Court recognized that this was wishful thinking. With polite understatement, in 2007 Chief Justice John Roberts noted that social science had evolved, and many leading scholars had expressed doubt about “whether racial diversity in schools in fact has a marked impact on test scores … or achieves intangible socialization benefits.” In a landmark decision, Parents Involved v. Seattle (2007), the Court proceeded to end court-ordered busing with a ringing declaration that Brown meant what it said: the Constitution required public schools to assign pupils on “a racially nondiscriminatory basis.” “History will be heard,” Chief Justice Roberts wrote. “The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” The Roberts Court belatedly recognized points that Justice Lewis Powell had noted back in 1973; that many parents regarded busing for racial balance as an interference with “the concept of community” and with the “liberty to direct the upbringing and education of children under their control.”[20]

Meanwhile, James Coleman somehow managed to survive the criticism of his academic peers. His standing as a sociologist remained high, and eventually he became the president of the American Sociological Association. Accepting an award in 1988, Coleman acknowledged that “recognition by one’s fellow researchers is one of the highest honors that can be bestowed.” Yet he also recalled that it had been difficult to withstand the criticism of peers, and he lamented that others, including “some of the most original and brilliant sociologists,” had been “driven to the periphery or to adjacent disciplines because the implication of their work runs counter to the current intellectual fashion.” In the academic world, Coleman noted, “the threat posed by fellow faculty members is probably greater than that posed by the usual villains.” In academia, academic freedom had been constricted less by external pressures, from either the Right or Left, and more by fellow scholars who were predisposed against research that challenged the conventional wisdom of the liberal mainstream.[21]

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I heard it's white people's fault. 

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21 minutes ago, Olaf said:

 

So this is way too long to read while I'm at work, but I will try to review later. A couple of quick thoughts:

1) I don't know that those articles say what you think they say. At least not the US News article. That article seems to say that there is still an achievement gap between blacks and whites. I don't think anyone would argue there isn't. I'm not sure how that is proof that forced school desegregation has failed.

2) I just looked up Raymond Wolters quickly because I'd not heard of him. He wrote this review of another book - 

 

Taylor has said that his book will be a success “if at least a few readers … become open to the possibility that … people of all races generally prefer the company of people like themselves; [that] racial diversity is a source of conflict, not strength.” He hopes to persuade readers to break away from racial assumptions that have become con- ventional in modern America. He aims to revive opinions that are akin to the views of most of the America’s Founding Fathers, to the beliefs of the men who are commemorated on Mount Rushmore, and to the ideas of the great majority of White Americans up until the 1950s and 1960s.

Effecting this “renaissance” requires tact and strategy as well as a thorough knowledge of the relevant history and science. In White Identity, Taylor does not mention “the Jewish question” that is often discussed in The Occidental Quarterly, and recent discoveries about evolution and advances in genome science receive less attention in Taylor’s new book than in his magazine, American Renaissance. Some critics have taken exception to the omission and soft pedaling. Nevertheless, White Identity is the single best summary of the evidence against racial sentimentalism and for race realism.

I am one of Taylor’s converts and, that being so, the story of my conversion may shed light on the prospects for a revival of White identity.

...

 It seems to me that Jews have played a major role in shaping the understanding of identity in modern America. They have fostered the growth of a diasporic consciousness among immigrants from Africa, Asia, and Latin America while, paradoxically, finding fault with American Whites and stigmatizing a resurgence of White identity.

 

--

Seems Wolters is a far right winger who may be racist and anti-semitic. But that doesn't necessarily mean his writing that you copied here is incorrect. But again - too long to read now.

Edited by whoknew

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4 minutes ago, whoknew said:

1) I don't know that those articles say what you think they say. At least not the US News article. That article seems to say that there is still an achievement gap between blacks and whites. I don't think anyone would argue there isn't. I'm not sure how that is proof that forced school desegregation has failed.

No, the articles say what I think they say.  I just don't buy into the media spin.  The media is trying to say the fact that the achievement gap is still so gaping is somehow an indication that racism still pervades and we must do more.  I read the achievement gap remaining a giant chasm despite a half century of various methods to close it as proof that those methods, including desegregtion, didn't work, and no methods will work to considerably narrow the achievement gap because the gap is primarily a result of genetics.  It's the same reason why Asian students consistently score higher than white students.  That hierarchy matches international testing.

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13 minutes ago, whoknew said:

Seems Wolters is a far right winger who may be racist and anti-semitic. 

Quite convenient how any scholar or person who reaches "unacceptable" conclusions based on the data is deemed a racist and right-winger.  Just like the former Liberal icon James Coleman himself.  This schtick is now as old as The Coleman Report.  :yawn:

But if you want another resource on the matter, here you go...

The Black-White Test Score Gap

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7 minutes ago, Olaf said:

No, the articles say what I think they say.  I just don't buy into the media spin.  The media is trying to say the fact that the achievement gap is still so gaping is somehow an indication that racism still pervades and we must do more.  I read the achievement gap remaining a giant chasm despite a half century of various methods to close it as proof that those methods, including desegregtion, didn't work, and no methods will work to considerably narrow the achievement gap because the gap is primarily a result of genetics.  It's the same reason why Asian students consistently score higher than white students.  That hierarchy matches international testing.

So it is your belief that blacks are just genetically dumber than whites and thus will never do as well educationally?

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47 minutes ago, The_Man said:

And meanwhile CNN and MSNBC were showing video of unrest that happened 13 months ago while reporting the news of this week's verdict.  They just couldn't stand to show scenes of an entire city going about its business with no riots.

Truly this sh/7 pisses me off. I'm glad Baltimore is peaceful and relatively well.

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3 minutes ago, Olaf said:

Quite convenient how any scholar or person who reaches "unacceptable" conclusions based on the data is deemed a racist and right-winger.  Just like the former Liberal icon James Coleman himself.  This schtick is now as old as The Coleman Report.  :yawn:

But if you want another resource on the matter, here you go...

The Black-White Test Score Gap

He's not a racist because I disagree with his conclusion. He's potentially a racist because his writings are racist. And he calls himself a conservative. I'm not making anything up that he's a right-winger. He is.

And I'm not sure what the point of your link is. It says that there is a gap between black and white test scores (I doubt anyone disagrees). But that its not genetic (to which you apparently disagree) and it can be corrected (to which you also seem to disagree). 

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14 minutes ago, whoknew said:

He's not a racist because I disagree with his conclusion. He's potentially a racist because his writings are racist. And he calls himself a conservative. I'm not making anything up that he's a right-winger. He is.

And I'm not sure what the point of your link is. It says that there is a gap between black and white test scores (I doubt anyone disagrees). But that its not genetic (to which you apparently disagree) and it can be corrected (to which you also seem to disagree). 

My point of the link is that only books that reach the "acceptable" conclusion that the gap is not natural and can be corrected get the New York Times and mainstream stamp of approval.  Those that don't reach that conclusion get deemed "racist".

But if the gap can be corrected then why hasn't it been?

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20 minutes ago, Olaf said:

My point of the link is that only books that reach the "acceptable" conclusion that the gap is not natural and can be corrected get the New York Times and mainstream stamp of approval.  Those that don't reach that conclusion get deemed "racist".

But if the gap can be corrected then why hasn't it been?

I'm going to skip the lecture about how you're soaking in Duke quality soft pedaled eugenics.

What's the logical conclusion of all this, for you I mean? So take these articles and more like them, accept them all as true and then what would be the policy you would expect or want to come out of it? Spell it out.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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As much as I've enjoyed living in Baltimore the past 17 years - and it's been an incredible place to raise a family - I'm starting to think about where we go next once my daughter hits college in 5 years.

I think things are going in the wrong direction with crime and policing. It's just gotten totally out of hand since last April.

Here's a sad but true statistic from today.

BALTIMORE CITY 2016 HOMICIDES:

Homicide #101: 90 years old

Homicide #102: 2 months old

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Date when Baltimore saw its 100th murder victim
'16: 5/25
'15: 5/22
'14: 7/14
'13: 6/17
'12: 6/20
'11: 6/28
'10: 7/1
'09: 6/10
'08: 6/22
'07: 5/7
'06: 5/17

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Quote

After documenting the extent of the flight, Coleman offered an explanation that infuriated erstwhile allies in the civil-rights movement. He said that in the 1960s he had mistakenly assumed that if middle-class students remained in the majority, they would continue to set the tone for an integrated school. “In that situation, both white and black children would learn.” As it happened, however, “the characteristics of the lower-class black classroom” often took over and constituted the values of the integrated school, even if middle-class students remained in the majority. Middle-class parents then transferred their children to private schools or moved to predominantly White suburbs. The problem, Coleman said, was “the degree of disorder and the degree to which schools … have failed to control lower-class black children.” It was “quite understandable,” Coleman said, for middle-class families “not to want to send their children to schools where 90 percent of the time is spent not on instruction but on discipline.”[16]

Coleman’s report on on White flight riled integrationists. “In 1966, we cited you as proof that [integration] worked,” NAACP attorney Charles Morgan told Coleman in 1975. “We don’t cite you as proof any more.”

Truth hurts. 

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10 hours ago, The_Man said:

Hundreds of African American kids have been gathering every afternoon at Mondawmin since this verdict was announced.

Then they get on their buses and go home.

City has been very calm and quiet in the wake of the verdict announcements. I will always regret the forced confrontation that police precipitated at the Mondawmin transportation hub last April.

I agree that most of the charges by Mosby were terrible overreaches. She's going to get hers at the voting booth next time, just like her husband did in his aborted Mayoral campaign, just like the Mayor would have if she hadn't jumped out of the race before she got humiliated. None of that changes the fact that an American citizen, committing no crime, was disappeared into the back of a windowless van by armed authorities of the state, and came out with fatal injuries. Do we just shrug our shoulders at that and say too bad? That nobody was to blame? As a libertarian, I can't buy that.

Hey, as much as I like Baltimore, be careful with that. Ever since the uprising, crime has been out of control in Baltimore. The cops really are just phoning it in at this point. I'm sure you're aware of various gangs of teens and how they seem to be targeting bicyclists as much as anyone else.

Yeah, I hear ya, but I'm not going to play scared. If I can't ride my bicycle through the city without being accosted, I don't want to live there.

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