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Faust

Dynasty & Redraft: RB Derrick Henry, Titans

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6 hours ago, Faust said:

ESPN's Merril Hoge said Alabama RB Derrick Henry lacks spontaneous agility to succeed in every scheme in the NFL.

 

"Spontaneous agility" was basically defined as quickness or lateral agility to avoid low tackles. This sounds like a very critical statement, but let's dissect it a bit. One, most NFL players, even many first round picks, are team and scheme dependent. Two, we know Henry struggles when the offensive line allows instant disruption; many running backs do. Three, Henry can be a major asset to a roster when allowed to get to the second level, and is better in that area than a large number of prospects at the position.

Four, Merril Hoge is an idiot.

Edited by Dr. Octopus
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I could see someone like Dallas snagging him in the 2nd if that don't get Ezekiel. He needs to go to a team that has a big & solid offensive line. 

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Zeek in Philly and Henry in Dallas would be great uses for my #1 and #4 rookie picks.

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1 minute ago, matttyl said:

Zeek in Philly and Henry in Dallas would be great uses for my #1 and #4 rookie picks.

If Henry goes to Dallas he'll go at No. 2 in many leagues. None of the top 3 WRs are Cooper/Watkins level prospects so I can see them falling in that case.

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Just now, Dr. Octopus said:

If Henry goes to Dallas he'll go at No. 2 in many leagues. None of the top 3 WRs are Cooper/Watkins level prospects so I can see them falling in that case.

shhh....I've been talking up 2 well known WRs in my league in the hopes that no matter what they go 2-3, which they were likely to do anyway.  I was hoping to give myself the choice of Henry or my 3rd WR at 4.

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On 4/15/2016 at 5:16 PM, Faust said:

I was wondering if Cosell would consider Henry to be a foundation back or not. I was kind of expecting that he would consider Henry a foundation back, but based on this article it doesn't sound like he does.

Quote

There is a path to success for Henry, who to me is a base offense, normal down-and-distance back who won’t play in three-receiver sets in passing situations. He’ll need to be in the right scheme, with a staff that has him play to his strengths.

 

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6 hours ago, Brendon1215 said:

I saw that last night. Dude is huge. Look at this pic with him & Saban. 
http://media.al.com/sports_impact/photo/alliejpg-14d921f10ec9b128.jpg 

NFLN put up a graphic during the combine noting that Henry's height, weight, BMI and combine performance were virtually identical to ... Von Miller. :shock:

I'm trying to my imagine my reaction if I had Von Miller barreling down on me at full speed and my job wasn't just to keep him off my QB, but to bring him down.:help:

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Derrick Henry compared to wrecking ball by ESPN's Sports Science, called a 'hybrid Eddie George'

Quote

According to "Sports Science," Henry's acceleration in the first 5 yards was the fastest time of any player analyzed at any position in the last three drafts.

He is also 26 percent faster than any other player tested in the last four drafts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPgIwASMiOc&feature=youtu.be&t=1m29s

Edited by eNdblu
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I'm starting to like Henry more and more. Thinking about it like a coach, he just presents such a difficult problem to solve for the other team. If you're OL gives him a path through to the LBs (which should be expected) then do just let this monster tee of on your MLB for an entire game? And that MLB has to bring so much commitment and force to those tackles that he almost has to bite hard on the play action. But that same LB likely is going to be tasked with coverage if DH slips out for a route. So, if you put a two down thumper on Henry he likely won't be fast enough to keep up. And if he gets a lane he can rip off big chunks. 

A lot of teams use a 3-4 scheme which should mean there's a pair of guys to absorb hits from Henry but it also means it drawing up possible two guys in on an over commitment on play action. Because they still have to bring the lumber when they meet DH in the hole. Plus, most OC's want backs that can give them what is there on most plays over a back that gives a few splash plays a game.

The Panthers just make too much sense to me. Henry is a perfect back for a bully team in a bit of a softer division. Is anyone scared of the Saints, Bucs or Falcons D?

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An NFL scout who spoke with ESPN's Matt Bowen referred to Alabama RB Derrick Henry as a clone of Eddie George.

 

"[Henry] punishes you. He's just going to wear your ### down. He is an Eddie George clone, and he has enough vision to find daylight in the pro game," the scout said. We have also seen comps to Eddie Lacy and Marion Butts over the course of the process. One evaluator, though, told NFL Media reporter Kimberly Jones at the time of the NFL Scouting Combine that there is no true comparable for the 6-foot-3, 247-pound Henry. He is a missile once he hits the second level, but it remains to be seen whether he has the wiggle to be a true workhorse back in the NFL. Even if he can't quite carry the entire load, he should provide a fantasy goldmine for touchdowns.
 
 
Source: ESPN.com 
Apr 21 - 3:48 PM

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As with any Alabama RB, I just worry about the workload he has had in college.

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22 minutes ago, Sinrman said:

As with any Alabama RB, I just worry about the workload he has had in college.

395 carries last yr. yikes. that's way more than yeldon or lacy every had.

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I listened to Cosells podcast where he goes into some detail about Derrick Henry.

What he talks about is similar to what he wrote in an article linled on page eight.

This podcast clairiffys for me that he does consider Henry to be a foundation RB but with a caveat that the team has to be dedicated to giving him the ball 20 times a game because he doesn't think Henry will as effective in a time share situation. That he needs a lot of carries to get going, or to break one. That he will have a lot of dead plays, so needs more volume to be successful.

He also says a lot of the runs at the college level are outside, while in the NFL the tendency is to run more inside.

Is that a description of a foundation RB? A guy who needs volume to be successful? Wouldn't most RB be successful if given volume?

At the start of the podcast Cosell says that RB need certain traits to be successful in the NFL. They need to be able to run inside and pick their way through traffic. Does Cosell describe Henry as a player who can consistently do this? I do not think he does.

He says RB need to be agile, they need to be able to pick their way through traffic and create difficult angles. This is a requirement for running between the tackles where there will be many defenders to avoid in order to make successful runs. Does this fit Cosells description of Henry? I do not think it does.

He says that RB need to be tough and to get some yards after contact. I think Cosells description of Henry fits this category. 

He says RB have to be able to get through small cracks. Does this fit his description of Henry? I am not sure really but I don't think it does.

He has also said that size is a attribute or similar to an ability or skill. So that would likely be in Henrys favor, but in his description it doesn't seem like it is. In fact it might even be a draw back because he is so tall.

So based on his own categories of what it means to be a foundation RB. He says Henry is that. But in evaluating his description of Henry I find it only meets his criteria in the areas of size (maybe) and toughness. 

This inconsistency becomes even more glaring when one considers that he has Prosise as being a foundation RB. I have not heard his description of his play style but I would say his weakness are in areas that Cosell describes as critical to being a successful NFL RB. This makes me wonder even more than it does Henry as I do not see Prosise as particularly agile or nifty in the hole and he doesn't have the pile moving potential of Henry. So what ability besides size does he offer to be considered a foundation RB by Cosell's own criteria remains a mystery.

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On 4/20/2016 at 10:21 PM, Borden said:

I'm starting to like Henry more and more. Thinking about it like a coach, he just presents such a difficult problem to solve for the other team. If you're OL gives him a path through to the LBs (which should be expected) then do just let this monster tee of on your MLB for an entire game? And that MLB has to bring so much commitment and force to those tackles that he almost has to bite hard on the play action. But that same LB likely is going to be tasked with coverage if DH slips out for a route. So, if you put a two down thumper on Henry he likely won't be fast enough to keep up. And if he gets a lane he can rip off big chunks. 

A lot of teams use a 3-4 scheme which should mean there's a pair of guys to absorb hits from Henry but it also means it drawing up possible two guys in on an over commitment on play action. Because they still have to bring the lumber when they meet DH in the hole. Plus, most OC's want backs that can give them what is there on most plays over a back that gives a few splash plays a game.

The Panthers just make too much sense to me. Henry is a perfect back for a bully team in a bit of a softer division. Is anyone scared of the Saints, Bucs or Falcons D?

I am not a big fan of Henry because of his workload and what I saw in the championship game where he seemed to go down on first contact (even DBs) too many times. As long as we don't even think about him in the 1st, I won't complain if we grab him at any point after that. I don't think he'll make it to our second round pick (62), but if they take him then I would be OK. I think with Stewart, we wouldn't abuse Henry this year so hopefully the workload won't be an issue. Heck, keep him fresh for the playoff run.

On the positive side, I can only imagine him as a wrecking ball on read option where if Cam lets him have the ball he will have an opening where he can accelerate into the next level. Since Ds have to be aware of Cam, he'd get a lot of free releases and I could see him doing some real damage.

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2 hours ago, stbugs said:

I am not a big fan of Henry because of his workload and what I saw in the championship game where he seemed to go down on first contact (even DBs) too many times. As long as we don't even think about him in the 1st, I won't complain if we grab him at any point after that. I don't think he'll make it to our second round pick (62), but if they take him then I would be OK. I think with Stewart, we wouldn't abuse Henry this year so hopefully the workload won't be an issue. Heck, keep him fresh for the playoff run.

On the positive side, I can only imagine him as a wrecking ball on read option where if Cam lets him have the ball he will have an opening where he can accelerate into the next level. Since Ds have to be aware of Cam, he'd get a lot of free releases and I could see him doing some real damage.

This is going to sound rude but it truly isn't meant to but you have to watch that Clemson game again. I know if I watch the game live it skews my view on player performance. He actually plays pretty good. You're right he does go first contact a bunch but I think there's only a 4 or so times when it isn't because there's multiple tacklers either on him or about to be. It is nice to see that he understands when to go down in order to avoid an unnecessary shot.

It's hard to knock a guy that puts up 36/158/3 (4.4 ypc) against "in theory" the second best team in the country. And watch how many people they are sending on most of his runs. His ypc would be higher if it wasn't for the GL carries and a penalty he drew for face masking.

http://draftbreakdown.com/video/derrick-henry-vs-clemson-2015/

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I have watched that game before and I think commented on it earlier in the thread. I just watched it again and Henry does some good things in this game. He runs through a arm tackle at one point and gains extra yards. He hits some holes that were not quite open yet at the time he is bursting through showing some ability to move the pile and find a good place to attack the defense with good timing with his blockers. So being successful in small spaces, this run was still outside the hash marks, but he did that. He even outran a bad angle in the backfield to get to the outside and a decent gain. There were four runs aside from the 50 yard TD that I thought were good runs and he showed good qualities on those. 

There were some other runs where he shows his limitations to jump cut or change direction of his momentum when defenders are barreling down on him. Many RB will go down in situations like this and I don't fault them for that as the defense does win some times. However a lot of RB can change direction consistently enough that they can turn dead plays like this into 3 yards or sometimes more. 

He does a really nice job in pass protection and as a lead blocker on one play I noted. The QB did get sacked several times in this game but I didn't notice any of those being solely Henrys fault or if he was on the field when those occurred. There was one sack I saw but Henry had his gap between the RT and the RG. The tackle was beaten on an outside rush but I do not think it was on Henry to follow the pass rusher to the outside where the QBs drop was. The tackle is supposed to redirect the pass rusher back to the inside where they have help. So I do not count that against him.

The 50 yard run TJ Green gets sealed off from the play by the TE block. Kearse takes a terrible angle towards the A gap and no one is there to tackle Henry who comes through a truck size hole with no safety or LB support in front of him nothing but green because of Kearse taking himself out of the play. That to me is bad defense moreso than a great play on his part.

Not that I am a proponent of this type of analysis, however Henry had 3.08 yards per carry in this game aside from the 50 yard run. Granted some of those were goal line and short yardage carries, but even accounting for 4 of 5 of those would be about 30 carries for 100 some yards, which is ok at the NFL level for the most part, but not for college where RB routinely have ypc numbers higher than 5 and even 6 for the season.

One thing I learned from Greg Cosell because I do not watch a lot of college football is the difference in the number of plays a college team runs compared to pro. It is easier to give a RB 30+ carries a game when your offense is usually running 70 to 80 plays a game. You reduce that to 60 or 70 plays a game then having 50% of your offense be a RB isn't usually an option.

 

 

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I think you nailed it on a lot of things but I don't think you can discount the long run. He did still run through a very weak tackle and he did outrun everyone enough to get to the end zone. Plus, I think it's the big runs that drive up most back ypc (but that's starting a bit down a different topic). We also really start to direct the conversation when we compare the average college stud RBs opponents (via the 5-6 ypc reference) and Henry vs Clemson. I can't see many people calling that Clemson D an average college defense. 

Its starting to sound like I'm a big Henry backer. I guess I like him but I'm not willing to die on this hill. Just trying to keep the discussion from being all negative.

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As Cosell says RB do not see big holes like that very often in the NFL and to kind of discount the plays after 20 yards. I have seen some statistical methods that suggest doing the same. Removing the best 10 and worst 10 plays from a sample for example.

Like I said I am not a fan of doing that. All of the other college RB are getting their ypc padded by these big plays as well. So to be consistent we need to treat all of the RB the same or use the same criteria to judge them by. But that isn't why I think the run should be ignored.

I didn't see him break any arm tackle on that play. Perhaps I missed it somehow? He did on another play I just watched but not that particular run that I saw. I think most RB if given the daylight Henry saw on that play would be able to score on it as well. They show the backside view of this play so you can kind of see what Henry is seeing. All he has to do is run forward. He has enough time that he angles his run back to the inside because there is no one back there to stop him.

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Went back and watched the run again. #1 for Clemson I thought got hands on him. In the 3rd angle, we see he doesn't. However, what we do see is that instead of just hammering into the back of his OL on the 3rd and one, he does make a decent cut and correctly chooses to bounce it to the right and then turns on the jets. It's not like he hits an A gap dive and goes the distance. It's not far off but it does display a nice cut, vision and burst. Nothing "special" but not completely nothing either. 

Fun discussion either way though. Like watching game film with someone else. 

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7 hours ago, Borden said:

This is going to sound rude but it truly isn't meant to but you have to watch that Clemson game again. I know if I watch the game live it skews my view on player performance. He actually plays pretty good. You're right he does go first contact a bunch but I think there's only a 4 or so times when it isn't because there's multiple tacklers either on him or about to be. It is nice to see that he understands when to go down in order to avoid an unnecessary shot.

It's hard to knock a guy that puts up 36/158/3 (4.4 ypc) against "in theory" the second best team in the country. And watch how many people they are sending on most of his runs. His ypc would be higher if it wasn't for the GL carries and a penalty he drew for face masking.

http://draftbreakdown.com/video/derrick-henry-vs-clemson-2015/

No worries at all. It was likely a few of those plays really stuck with me because it surprised me how he wasn't able to get around/go through a smaller defender. I don't think I watched every play, but I just wasn't very impressed. That said, Clemson has a lot of guys who are going to be drafted this week on D, but overall I wasn't very fond of Henry. I didn't get to watch much more of him last year so that game is really my main impression of him. If the Panthers take him at #2, then I trust them a lot more than I trust my opinion. That said, I'd rather see him fall into the 3rd. There are so many quality guys from late 1st through the 2nd that I wouldn't want to lose out on getting 2 of them when we don't have a screaming need for RB and there are other good RBs later.

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One thing that I think is getting overlooked with Henry is how useful he can be in the passing game.  I know he doesn't have much of a sample from college, but he seems to have natural hands.  He actually looks more natural than Elliott at the combine.  Since his best attribute is probably getting into open space and being a human bulldozer, I can see a team lining him up at WR or TE on 3rd down and hitting him on some quick slants or screens and letting him do his thing.  From a fantasy perspective, even if he won't be a top 5 back, I think he can be a top 20 RB with upside in PPR.  If guys like Charles Sims and Matt Asiata can finish in the top 20, I'm pretty sure Henry can also.  I need RB help pretty badly so I will be taking him at 3 overall in my 14 team ppr.  

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1 hour ago, Borden said:

Went back and watched the run again. #1 for Clemson I thought got hands on him. In the 3rd angle, we see he doesn't. However, what we do see is that instead of just hammering into the back of his OL on the 3rd and one, he does make a decent cut and correctly chooses to bounce it to the right and then turns on the jets. It's not like he hits an A gap dive and goes the distance. It's not far off but it does display a nice cut, vision and burst. Nothing "special" but not completely nothing either. 

Fun discussion either way though. Like watching game film with someone else. 

I wondering if I was crazy and didn't see the arm tackle as I did watch the play perhaps 6 or more times by now. :unsure:

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Quote

An NFL scout said Alabama RB Derrick Henry "is Eddie George" but added that the "dilemma will be, can he play in today's spread?"

 

As quoted by the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, the scout called Henry's running style "leggy." "In the NFL he will have to get his pad level down," a different scout said. "He runs too high." Not everyone is concerned. "If he gets going north-south you better bring it, because he's going to get yards after contact," a third scout said. "If it's muddy in Green Bay and it's the championship game and you've got to control the clock, I want Derrick Henry in my backfield." A fourth chimed in: "Doesn't have all the things you want but he's a 4.5 big guy who has some jump cut, some movement. He's a ##### on the perimeter. It takes him a minute to get rolling. You can get him early inside. But if he gets to the second level he's a man. And he proved he could catch in the workout."

 

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I think Henry possibly could slide a bit to the middle, perhaps even late, 2nd round and could land in SEA or NE/CAR (both trading up a bit).  In the right system I think he's going to be a very good pro.

With his size/speed combo it's hard to find a really good comp as RB don't come much bigger.   I think a few teams will be jockeying for him tomorrow evening. 

He looks like a slightly bigger and faster former Heisman winner  - George Rogers  

 

 

Edited by elguapo07

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On 4/25/2016 at 6:50 AM, Tool said:

395 carries last yr. yikes. that's way more than yeldon or lacy every had.

Marcus Allen had 433 carries in 1981....also had 34 receptions.

467 touches in 12 games = 39 touches per game. And he had 384 total touches the year before in 11 games.

Different eras and different run styles, for sure, but not everything can be attributed to just raw numbers IMO.

Don't let a thing like the number of college carries dissuade you in drafting the guy.

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titans gotten get one of these drafted rbs right at some point. wonder who'll they'll take next year??? 

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2 minutes ago, beef said:

titans gotten get one of these drafted rbs right at some point. wonder who'll they'll take next year??? 

Fournette

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I can't imagine much of a worst spot.. This pours a lot of cold water on Demarco as well

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11 minutes ago, KellysHeroes said:

After all those college carries maybe a light work load in his pro season is a good thing

That's the glass half full way to look at.

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well on the plus side murray's 28 and has a lot of mileage. maybe henry could take the lead as soon as 17?

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2 minutes ago, Tool said:

well on the plus side murray's 28 and has a lot of mileage. maybe henry could take the lead as soon as 17?

He'll be the lead 17 quarters into the season. Maybe 17 minutes into it. 

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15 minutes ago, Bigboy10182000 said:

He'll be the lead 17 quarters into the season. Maybe 17 minutes into it. 

Because of injury or because he sucks?

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27 minutes ago, Tool said:

Because of injury or because he sucks?

Because he isn't as good as Henry. Murray is done as a runner and it won't take Tennessee long to realize it. 

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Landing spot seems ok to me. Murray's contract makes him easy to cut after this year (and tempting to cut, too, if he isn't performing). Henry is not being handed the workhorse role from day 1, but he has a good shot to win it for year 2.

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