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WR Stefon Diggs, HOU (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Faust
- Start date
dipandglide
Footballguy
Maybe someone was talking about their situations. Anyways, this is the Diggs thread. He has definitely been compared to AB(debatable). Does anyone remember watching young AB? If so, what are your guys thoughts on him vs Diggs early in their careers?
zamboni
Footballguy
This is where I see it.
It's not going to happen this year for Diggs with the low volume passing game, but after this season how many more years will they be able to run AP 325+ times a year? At some point, this will become Teddy's team - maybe as soon as next year if AP finally starts to show some wear and tear. At that point, I think we'll see more of what Diggs can do.
He seems to be everything that the team expected Cordarelle Patterson to be, and at a much cheaper draft cost.
1) you are presuming that teddy Bridgewater is actually a good NFL qb. I've seen nothing to suggest that personally. He has ups and downs and overall looks painfully average to me. But I get what you're saying. AP will be gone soon and there should be more passes to go around.
2) Diggs and Patterson are not good comparisons. I think the Vikes drafted Patterson knowing that he was a terrible route runner but a freakish athlete who can catch and can do evil things with the ball in his hands. He is still that guy they just have NO clue how to use him. He should be getting 5-7 carries out of the backfield and targeted on 3-5 screen passes every game. Just get the ball in his hands and give him a few blocks. Unimaginative Morons.
Diggs otoh has always been known for his route running. He's not a super fast guy. But a precision route runner who can stop on a dime and has great quick twitch abilities. Very elusive in the open field. I would love to see the Vikes fugure out a way to have Diggs, Patterson, and Wallace on the field at the same time and move to a 3 receiver set. Perhaps Patterson in the slot. Just give him a few dump offs every game and let him stress the defense with his game breaking open field moves. That and rudolf would open up the field for Wallace and Diggs on the outside.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
So who is getting benched for Patterson since you are so smart and the Vikings coaches such morons?
Wow, you're a bit testy this morning huh? I am so smart. Thank for acknowledging
I don't think the Vikes run that many 3 wr sets so this is a moot point with Norv running the show.
I wouldn't bench Diggs or Wallace (although Wallace hasn't done much of anything...but he's still a better route runner than Patterson which is scary). I'd only try to develop patterson as a slot guy and then tailor he offense to run more 3 wr sets next year when AP is gone.
Eta: if the Minnesota coaching staff and player personnel were so smart they would have correctly seen Patterson for what he is and not drafted him in the first round.
But they did. And zimmer inherited him. So me you have a very talented but colossal BUST on your hands. why not give the guy a shot to showcase the skills you drafted him for by drawing up plays that he would be comfortable running?
Just put the ball in his hands. Look at how stl uses tavon Austin now..after 2 years of not knowing wtf to do with him he is now one of the most dangerous all purpose players in the NFL.
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BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Patterson ship sailed quite a long time ago. Kick Returner playing out his rookie deal, no interest in perfecting his craft. Talent don't mean #### if you're not going to put in the work. #### him.
mr roboto
Footballguy
lol. Still holding in dynasty?Wow, you're a bit testy this morning huh? I am so smart. Thank for acknowledging
I don't think the Vikes run that many 3 wr sets so this is a moot point with Norv running the show.
I wouldn't bench Diggs or Wallace (although Wallace hasn't done much of anything...but he's still a better route runner than Patterson which is scary). I'd only try to develop patterson as a slot guy and then tailor he offense to run more 3 wr sets next year when AP is gone.
Oh NO NO NO NO ...definitely not! LolI did draft him in dynasty but dropped his #### like a hot potato long ago.lol. Still holding in dynasty?Wow, you're a bit testy this morning huh? I am so smart. Thank for acknowledging
I don't think the Vikes run that many 3 wr sets so this is a moot point with Norv running the show.
I wouldn't bench Diggs or Wallace (although Wallace hasn't done much of anything...but he's still a better route runner than Patterson which is scary). I'd only try to develop patterson as a slot guy and then tailor he offense to run more 3 wr sets next year when AP is gone.
BUT, I still don't think the Vikes are not doing the right thing by keeping such an explosive player off the field.
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Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
He has? Bridgewater who is slightly built is nothing like Ben physically and their games are nothing at all similar. Bridgewater reminds me of Chad Pennington. Ben is a gunslinger/deep ball thrower - Teddy is not.
ETA: For the record I love Chad Pennington so don't take that as a knock on Bridgewater.
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In fairness, because of Teddy's lack of mobility, maybe he meant the clock in London.
mr roboto
Footballguy
Wait, lack of mobility?
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I have discussed all of this in the Patterson thread.rickyg said:Wow, you're a bit testy this morning huh?I am so smart. Thank for acknowledgingBiabreakable said:
I don't think the Vikes run that many 3 wr sets so this is a moot point with Norv running the show.
I wouldn't bench Diggs or Wallace (although Wallace hasn't done much of anything...but he's still a better route runner than Patterson which is scary). I'd only try to develop patterson as a slot guy and then tailor he offense to run more 3 wr sets next year when AP is gone.
Eta: if the Minnesota coaching staff and player personnel were so smart they would have correctly seen Patterson for what he is and not drafted him in the first round.
But they did. And zimmer inherited him. So me you have a very talented but colossal BUST on your hands. why not give the guy a shot to showcase the skills you drafted him for by drawing up plays that he would be comfortable running?
Just put the ball in his hands. Look at how stl uses tavon Austin now..after 2 years of not knowing wtf to do with him he is now one of the most dangerous all purpose players in the NFL.
Quick summary:
Vikings traded away Percy Harvin and as a run first team they make special teams a high priority. Harvin was also so good the Ponder could throw him multiple WR screens a game and Harvin would will himself yards with some tough running after the catch. This gave people the impression that the Vikings could run plays like this all game since it worked for awhile with Harvin.
Vikings trade up to draft Patterson as their 3rd 1st round pick giving up a 2nd 3rd and 4th round picks to move IIRC. They did this to replace Harvin as a kick returner primarily and although they knew Patterson was very raw prospect (only played one season at division 1 level) they hoped they could develop him into a complete WR in time.
Patterson had some amazing explosive plays as a rookie. Mostly as a kick returner (he led the league in return yards that year). He did not get worked into the offense much until later in his rookie season. Week 10 9 targets 3 catches 28 yards Week 11 11 8 54 Week 13 against the Ravens in the snow was Pattersons best game 7 5 141 1TD most of this yardage occurred on a fluke play where Patterson weaves his way for a TD. Towards the end of the season Patterson also had 10 of his 12 total rushing attempts, suggesting this might be a way the Vikings use him moving forward.
The coaches got sacked and in comes Zimmer and Turner (the morons).
They played Patterson as the X WR and he had 4 or more targets for the first 9 games before being benched for ineffectiveness. He was replaced by Charles Johnson who did a much better job of running routes and getting open downfield. Patterson had a 100 yard rushing game in week 1 against the Rams. The 7 other rushing attempts he had in 2014 went for a total of 15 yards.
I am not sure how over 100 years combined coaching experience could be so blind to not just get the ball in Pattersons hands. Good things happen if you do that right?
The problem is that Patterson presents no threat as a conventional WR and they have to use trick plays to get him the ball. When the defense knows Patterson isn't really a threat in a conventional sense, whenever he is on the field they will focus on the possibility of Patterson running an end around or jet sweep, or perhaps a WR screen as you mention. The problem is plays like this are generally only successful when there is an element of surprise involved. Some deception and misdirection. Well no one is going to be surprised about Patterson running a trick play when that is the only thing he has been effective at, which makes the execution of those tricks plays more difficult and the plays are risky in nature when properly defensed they can lead to loss of yardage or possibly a turn over. The WR screens take some good timing and route running to set up properly. They have run plenty of these to Patterson but he generally does not get many yards off of WR screens, he certainly is not as good at running it as Jarius Wright has proven to be.
It's not that the Vikings do not run these constraint plays in their offense, they do. Against the Rams they ran with 3 different WR none of them Patterson. However these WR are capable of winning in other ways than trick plays, so running those plays with these receivers is more of a surprise and generally a higher chance of success then if the offense had Patterson running those plays when the defense is expecting it.
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Biabreakable
Footballguy
Just listening to Norse Code that had Danny Kelly an excellent Seahawks blogger on the show.
On the subject of how Sherman has been playing and what to expect as far his matching up on Diggs. He says that Sherman has shadowed teams number one WR at times this season, but he does not do so for the whole game. It is something he is more likely to do on 3rd down or other critical situations. Arif points out that the Seahawks are top five in DVOA against teams WR 1. So pretty good.
At the same time the Seahawks prefer to play zone and they do not use a lot of disguise of their coverage. They prefer to keep scheme somewhat simple and count on their excellent players to execute the defense. They prefer to play cover 3 so this means the outside corners are responsible for the outside deep zones. They will play man to man at times to change things up, but I don't get the sense that taking Diggs out of the game with Sherman as being a high priority for them.
The Vikings can use combination routes with one receiver going deep (likely Mike Wallace) which will clear things out underneath is Sherman follows the deep receiver as the cover 3 defense requires.
The Seahawks have struggled against TE this season more than WR. So Rudolph may see a lot of targets again if the Vikings see that as a weakness in their defense.
Listening to Bridgewater he says that the Seahawks defense is very similar to the Falcons. But that the Hawks obviously have better players working within the system. This may mean that the Vikings have a similar game plan to last week where Rudolph led the team in targets, throwing to the RB and TE and not really attacking the outside too much. However the Seahawks did give up a lot of yards to Wheaton against the Steelers, so perhaps Jarius Wright will be called on more against their slot corners when the Vikings do use 3 WR sets.
After thinking about this and the other match ups over the week, I guess I am expecting Rudolph and Wright to be the most favorable match ups in the passing game for the Vikings. If Sherman does not cover Wallace, perhaps he will see more targets as well. So overall I don't think this is a great match up for Diggs.
On the subject of how Sherman has been playing and what to expect as far his matching up on Diggs. He says that Sherman has shadowed teams number one WR at times this season, but he does not do so for the whole game. It is something he is more likely to do on 3rd down or other critical situations. Arif points out that the Seahawks are top five in DVOA against teams WR 1. So pretty good.
At the same time the Seahawks prefer to play zone and they do not use a lot of disguise of their coverage. They prefer to keep scheme somewhat simple and count on their excellent players to execute the defense. They prefer to play cover 3 so this means the outside corners are responsible for the outside deep zones. They will play man to man at times to change things up, but I don't get the sense that taking Diggs out of the game with Sherman as being a high priority for them.
The Vikings can use combination routes with one receiver going deep (likely Mike Wallace) which will clear things out underneath is Sherman follows the deep receiver as the cover 3 defense requires.
The Seahawks have struggled against TE this season more than WR. So Rudolph may see a lot of targets again if the Vikings see that as a weakness in their defense.
Listening to Bridgewater he says that the Seahawks defense is very similar to the Falcons. But that the Hawks obviously have better players working within the system. This may mean that the Vikings have a similar game plan to last week where Rudolph led the team in targets, throwing to the RB and TE and not really attacking the outside too much. However the Seahawks did give up a lot of yards to Wheaton against the Steelers, so perhaps Jarius Wright will be called on more against their slot corners when the Vikings do use 3 WR sets.
After thinking about this and the other match ups over the week, I guess I am expecting Rudolph and Wright to be the most favorable match ups in the passing game for the Vikings. If Sherman does not cover Wallace, perhaps he will see more targets as well. So overall I don't think this is a great match up for Diggs.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Well that was fun. See ya next year!
Still holding for Semi & Finals depth if needed.
Still holding for Semi & Finals depth if needed.
dipandglide
Footballguy
Teddy+Seattle=not a good recipe for success
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I think the Cardinals defense is better than Seattle. Should be similar game plan to run with Peterson although Peterson throwing the coaches under the bus has me wondering.
Denver724
Footballguy
What do you guys think for this weekend? Looking at the FBG rankings and they have Diggs over John Brown. Somewhat surprised with Diggs going against a good D like the Cards on Thursday night. I have both players and really want to start Brown, but both week #14 rankings have Diggs ranked higher.
Diggs is nearly droppable these days. Had a nice four game rune early-on, but with the Vikings scheme and Bridgewater's shortcomings, he's not even worthy of a flex start. Put him on the other side and let him play for the Cardinals and with Palmer and he'd be a top ten receiver in the league and in fantasy. But as it stands, he's in an awful situation.
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BobbyLayne
Footballguy
I found the FBGs projections for him puzzling.
Holding, he'll be in the conversation Weeks 15 & 16, but for me I think he's mostly insurance ROS.
zamboni
Footballguy
I don't think he can be realistically started unless you believe the Vikings get into shootouts - which is unlikely to happen. Zimmer already said that he didn't give AP enough carries, so expect a lot of AP the rest of the way with Teddy serving in his game manager role.
Love Diggs for dynasty purposes though as the offense eventually goes less and less through AP given his age/wear and tear.
Love Diggs for dynasty purposes though as the offense eventually goes less and less through AP given his age/wear and tear.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Are you 14?
He's a very talented athlete. The situation doesn't lend itself to high produciton. Pretty sure that was covered 40-50 times over the last couple months.
This was one of the most balanced threads of the season. Everyone was happy to see him do well early on, and those platitudes were tempered with caveats.
Low volume passing attack, cautious QB, an OC/HC who are likely to continue featuring their stud RB.
The week to week production was exactly in line with the quality of the defense he was facing. That's not an indictment of his talent, it simply reflects the Vikings game plan & game flow.
If you kept starting him through the tough matchups,
After the bye week, he did well vs KC, Det & Chi. Those teams give up the 2ned, 17th and 22nd most FFP to WRs.
With the exception of Oakland (18th), every game since has been against a top ten WR defense in terms of FFP allowed to WRs.
This wasn't rocket science.
LittlePhatty
Footballguy
This is becoming a trend with Viking WRs.
Flash some promises of a big future then disappear.
Cordarrelle Patterson, Charles Johnson...
I'm beginning to think it's a coaching problem.
Flash some promises of a big future then disappear.
Cordarrelle Patterson, Charles Johnson...
I'm beginning to think it's a coaching problem.
packer_junkie
Footballguy
Or a quarterback problem
tandl71
Footballguy
I'm sorry I interrupted the balance such an upstanding thread. I'll let you return to your platitudes and caveats.Are you 14?
He's a very talented athlete. The situation doesn't lend itself to high produciton. Pretty sure that was covered 40-50 times over the last couple months.
This was one of the most balanced threads of the season. Everyone was happy to see him do well early on, and those platitudes were tempered with caveats.
Low volume passing attack, cautious QB, an OC/HC who are likely to continue featuring their stud RB.
The week to week production was exactly in line with the quality of the defense he was facing. That's not an indictment of his talent, it simply reflects the Vikings game plan & game flow.
If you kept starting him through the tough matchups,
After the bye week, he did well vs KC, Det & Chi. Those teams give up the 2ned, 17th and 22nd most FFP to WRs.
With the exception of Oakland (18th), every game since has been against a top ten WR defense in terms of FFP allowed to WRs.
This wasn't rocket science.
BRIDGEWATER HAS A POOPEE ARM
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Age Verification Status: Confirmed
mr roboto
Footballguy
The new Oakland WR carousel.
mr roboto
Footballguy
Teddy is 15% of this. Diggs 10% (still a rookie still has room to improve). 50% on O-line, 20% on Norv, 5% on Peterson (he is not comfortable running from shotgun so Teddy is being forced to take ball from center behind a ####ty line). Teddy talent-wise can support a 1,200/10 WR I have no doubt.
chad in Indy
Footballguy
How much of this in on AP being horrible with pass protection, which limits longer developing plays?
mr roboto
Footballguy
His bigger fault is his unwillingness to run out of the gun. Our O-line is so bad AP can't help 3 guys at once.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
How long do expect the Zimmer honeymoon to last?mr roboto said:
2015 - infallible
2016 - grumblings
2017 - is Bud still alive?
mr roboto
Footballguy
Long time. He's a great HC honestly. Really resonates with this fan base and culture here. Just need an O line and an OC who isn't stuck in the mid-90s.
SameSongNDance
Footballguy
I still might roll him out next week vs. CHI in my start three WR league because I quite obviously don't have a specifically strong/solidified WR3 at the moment. He abused Fuller the first time they met. 
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
The guy is super talented...this slow stretch is the best time to get him in dynasty because his value will never be much lower!
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
Do people realize Diggs is currently on pace for 60/900? Keep in mind, he didn't play until week 4. He may not be a comfortable start but he is not droppable in redraft leagues, imo. There are 4 games remaining and I'm willing to bet Diggs will produce WR2 numbers in 2 of those games.
VaTerp
Footballguy
I dropped him to pick up Luck in a 14 team league where I have the #1 seed and a bye this week despite relying on Stafford and Carr at QB.
My Wrs arent great either and I will likely try to pick him back up if he's still out there next week and I feel comfortable dropping Carr or Chandler if Gronk comes back.
As has been stated before love the talent but in a very limited passing game at the time being. Watching the Vikings offense has been often brutal the last several weeks.
My Wrs arent great either and I will likely try to pick him back up if he's still out there next week and I feel comfortable dropping Carr or Chandler if Gronk comes back.
As has been stated before love the talent but in a very limited passing game at the time being. Watching the Vikings offense has been often brutal the last several weeks.
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
I forgot to add that in his last 5 games, Diggs has faced the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 9th and12th ranked defenses vs WR. He went for 6/66 against the 9th ranked Packer defense and basically played as the defensive rankings would suggest in the others. OAK, the 12th ranked defense against WRs, was lit up for 200 yards by AP and the Vikings dominated.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
I actually like him this week because I think game flow will dictate Teddy throwing >35 times. Diggs has at least 6 receptions in the three games TB has thrown that much.
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I tend to agree that the passing attempts will be higher than usual because none of the starting safeties have practiced this week. Palmer will likely connect on some deep passes and force the Vikings into a chase situation. The earlier this happens in the game the sooner they will abandon the run.BobbyLayne said:
