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Thomas Rawls, RB, CMU/Seahawks (2 Viewers)

Amused to Death said:
I think people write off Christine Michael because the team that drafted him did and so did a team desperate for an RB.  His lack of touches is a result of his inability to show the teams that he's deserving of more touches.  At some point, the teams actually do know better than FFL guys.
To some degree, but let's not pretend there isn't a little schadenfreude going on here after Michael hypers were so annoying.

Also, I think the idea that Dallas was desperate at RB was more SP perception/fiction than fact. It sure seems Jerry Jones had a lot of faith in DMC and was rewarded. I'm not going to lie, I thought DMC was done after 3 seasons in a row of pitiful production (<3.4 ypc) but I was wrong and Jerry was right. Michael was nothing more than a DMC backup plan for Dallas. I don't think they brought him in to compete for the starting job.

To act like Michael is no risk at all is foolish. Thomas Jones got way more opportunities on the field to produce than Michael (not less than 112 carries in his first four seasons) and he still didn't break out until he'd been cut by two teams. We've got some strong evidence stacking up that Michael is a bit of a headcase in the locker room/practice, but very little evidence that he's not any good on the field.

 
Holy crap. Some of you are so condescending its awful. The written word will be read with the worst possible tone and intonation, but come on guys...

Seattle wasn't going to go into training camp with two RBs under contract. Just wasn't going to happen. They desperately needed depth. I fully expected them to invest 2 picks into the position via the draft. There are several good articles analyzing this at Fieldgulls. 

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2016/5/11/11654898/schneiders-strategum-the-running-back-draft

If one cares to look you'll also find many links to Schneider interviews where he addresses this specifically. He was of the opinion that this year was very deep in RBs. Having the need he addressed the position. Taking three RBs in this draft isn't the bell tolling for Rawls. Every Seattle homer fully expects him to be the featured ball carrier this season. Is it possible that he isn't fully healthy and that depth pays off? Sure, but that's true of every player at every position in the NFL. General managers aren't worried about your perception of Rawl's fantasy value. They worried about having quality depth as much as possible at every position. EVERY position. Seattle front office and coaching staff beat the drum daily about competition at every position. 

 
More useful in what way?

Do it then.
1) I thought I was clear, but if you're not into the whole brevity thing  ;) I'll indulge you since you devote a lot of time to your posts. My thinking is that previously NFL teams were pretty consistent in how they valued RBs. Several were taken in the first round, a few more in the second, and a handful in the third. However, in the past few years there has been a shift away from that. No RBs were taken in the first round in 2014 and this year the third RB off the board wasn't until the third round. Thus, I don't think the old data about % of NFL success by round is applicable anymore*.

2) I thought I just did by going through the last 3 years of drafts and pointing out the level of talent of the 4th RB drafted.

That was the best I'm willing to do because, one, I don't know what criteria was used for the previous study about success vs. round, two, I don't have the time to dig through all the data, and three, this trend hasn't been going on long enough to have significant data (I'm not going to label Abdullah a bust yet, don't know what to make of Sims given his very specific role, and have no idea what to label Lacy). I really think the best we can do right now is point out who the 4th RBs off the board were the past few years and let people make their own talent assessment of those guys.

*One anecdotal thing I'll add - I was looking up Charles the other day. He was the 73rd pick of the 2008 draft and he was the 10th RB selected. This year Drake was the 73rd pick and was the 3rd RB. Just 8 years apart, but a massive gulf between NFL teams' draft strategy.

 
 Taking three RBs in this draft isn't the bell tolling for Rawls.
Why do people keep setting up this straw man? Has anyone actually said that? Why is the perception that if you aren't pro hype train, you're anti-Rawls? All I've asserted is that he needs to be dropped in the rankings down with other guys with a similar amount of red flags, not removed from everyone's draft board. I was impressed by his six games last year. I'd be crazy not to be. However, there are much safer draft picks and there are draft picks with higher upside.

What people are saying is "taking three RBs in this draft is one of several going concerns."

 
pleasure derived by someone from another person's misfortune.
Yep. I think people (former Lynch, current Rawls owners) continue to enjoy rubbing Michael's failure into his hyper's faces, thus my comment about glibly writing Michael off this year.

 
Yep. I think people (former Lynch, current Rawls owners) continue to enjoy rubbing Michael's failure into his hyper's faces, thus my comment about glibly writing Michael off this year.
Got it...just assumed I wasn't the only one who had to the word up

 
I think getting caught up in a "number" in the rankings is what is blowing this discussion out of proportion here.  It's almost like everyone can agree that Rawls looks great, has a small sample size and could or could not be the starter.  We also all recognize that Seattle drafted some RBs who could or could not eat into his production.  Everything else is subjective.  

I look at the list of rankings, I see 3 RBs at the top who will be in the top 3 for a few years.  Then I see about 20 guys who will be in the top 25 for anywhere from a year to few more years.  Rawls falls into this category.  I don't think any RB outside of the top 3 are worth a large investment because they could all be gone very soon.  

Rawls may be the starter this year and he may light it up like he did in his few starts last year.  That is a very run friendly system.  But to argue that he's RB8 or RB 14 or RB20 is just pointless.  If you believe in him, then buy him at a price you are comfortable with.  If you don't believe in him, then pass on him until you are comfortable with his price. It's much simpler than this thread has made it.

 
I'll give some projections. I expect Rawls will be healthy to start the season, he will be the starter, and the team will use him similar to how Lynch was used. Assuming he plays 16 games:

270 carries, 1240 rushing yards (4.6 ypc), 10 rushing TDs, 30 receptions, 240 receiving yards, 1 receiving TD

That would rank him in the top 5 in both PPR and non-PPR. I don't formally produce rankings, but, if I did, I would have him in my top 5 RBs in both dynasty and redraft.

Does this mean I advocate drafting him in the top 5? Fortunately, that isn't necessary. Per FantasyPros, he is being drafted in the 8-13 range. IMO he is a bargain at that point. Also, Lacy and Elliott are shown as the next two RBs drafted, and I expect they will both eventually move ahead of Rawls in ADP, which would make him an even better value.

 
1) I thought I was clear, but if you're not into the whole brevity thing  ;) I'll indulge you since you devote a lot of time to your posts. My thinking is that previously NFL teams were pretty consistent in how they valued RBs. Several were taken in the first round, a few more in the second, and a handful in the third. However, in the past few years there has been a shift away from that. No RBs were taken in the first round in 2014 and this year the third RB off the board wasn't until the third round. Thus, I don't think the old data about % of NFL success by round is applicable anymore*.

2) I thought I just did by going through the last 3 years of drafts and pointing out the level of talent of the 4th RB drafted.

That was the best I'm willing to do because, one, I don't know what criteria was used for the previous study about success vs. round, two, I don't have the time to dig through all the data, and three, this trend hasn't been going on long enough to have significant data (I'm not going to label Abdullah a bust yet, don't know what to make of Sims given his very specific role, and have no idea what to label Lacy). I really think the best we can do right now is point out who the 4th RBs off the board were the past few years and let people make their own talent assessment of those guys.

*One anecdotal thing I'll add - I was looking up Charles the other day. He was the 73rd pick of the 2008 draft and he was the 10th RB selected. This year Drake was the 73rd pick and was the 3rd RB. Just 8 years apart, but a massive gulf between NFL teams' draft strategy.
Your link is broken.

You made a claim that you thought that looking at RB by the order they were drafted was in some way better than looking at them by the round they were drafted. It is not a new idea, I was just wondering why you thought that method was better and perhaps you could demonstrate that. That is kind of what I expect when someone says that other forms of evaluation are not as good or as useful.

You mostly seem interested in ax grinding against Thomas Rawls for some reason and perhaps your draft order argument was more useful for that purpose. I don't see how else it might be. Doesn't seem like a more useful purpose to me.

 
Your link is broken.

You made a claim that you thought that looking at RB by the order they were drafted was in some way better than looking at them by the round they were drafted. It is not a new idea, I was just wondering why you thought that method was better and perhaps you could demonstrate that. That is kind of what I expect when someone says that other forms of evaluation are not as good or as useful.

You mostly seem interested in ax grinding against Thomas Rawls for some reason and perhaps your draft order argument was more useful for that purpose. I don't see how else it might be. Doesn't seem like a more useful purpose to me.
Hmm, it works for me. Just a Big Lebowski quote.

Do you disagree with the hypothesis? In order to disagree, you'd basically be taking the stance that the quality of RBs is decreasing (which would be possible as talented players with the versatility to play a different position realize there is more money to be made at other positions) or that there are less successful RBs in the NFL now (seems weird, but I don't know the criteria for "successful" used in the "round by round success %" study). Unless one of those two things are true, when running backs are clearly being drafted later than they used to be, it seems foolish to apply statistics from an era when they were drafted earlier.

I've just noticed Rawls seems to be going off the board in the mocks much higher than I'd expect given all his red flags. Figured this would be the place to discuss it.

 
Hmm, it works for me. Just a Big Lebowski quote.

Do you disagree with the hypothesis? In order to disagree, you'd basically be taking the stance that the quality of RBs is decreasing (which would be possible as talented players with the versatility to play a different position realize there is more money to be made at other positions) or that there are less successful RBs in the NFL now (seems weird, but I don't know the criteria for "successful" used in the "round by round success %" study). Unless one of those two things are true, when running backs are clearly being drafted later than they used to be, it seems foolish to apply statistics from an era when they were drafted earlier.

I've just noticed Rawls seems to be going off the board in the mocks much higher than I'd expect given all his red flags. Figured this would be the place to discuss it.
There is no hypothesis for me to agree or disagree with. Just an empty rhetorical claim.

 
Fair enough. Where do you rank him in redraft? Any projections you want to share?


I don't have him ranked. I don't burn time making projections. I've been down that road. I did it a long time ago when I got paid to do it, but its seems a total waste of time right now for me. My only draft (redraft) will take place a week before the season starts. For now I just try to pay attention to what's going on across the league and familiarize myself with players that might have an opportunity to shine if plugged into the right situation. 

 
I think getting caught up in a "number" in the rankings is what is blowing this discussion out of proportion here.  It's almost like everyone can agree that Rawls looks great, has a small sample size and could or could not be the starter.  We also all recognize that Seattle drafted some RBs who could or could not eat into his production.  Everything else is subjective.  

I look at the list of rankings, I see 3 RBs at the top who will be in the top 3 for a few years.  Then I see about 20 guys who will be in the top 25 for anywhere from a year to few more years.  Rawls falls into this category.  I don't think any RB outside of the top 3 are worth a large investment because they could all be gone very soon.  

Rawls may be the starter this year and he may light it up like he did in his few starts last year.  That is a very run friendly system.  But to argue that he's RB8 or RB 14 or RB20 is just pointless.  If you believe in him, then buy him at a price you are comfortable with.  If you don't believe in him, then pass on him until you are comfortable with his price. It's much simpler than this thread has made it.
Hmm, that's funny... I think that's exactly what's being missed from the discussion! People are viewing this in black and white - you are either pro-Rawls or you think he's going to instantly flame out.

Personally, my experiences in the WSL, PDSL, and SSL mocks (which are redraft and ppr) have made me feel he's way overvalued in redraft this coming year for a guy not projected to catch many passes, with a small favorable sample size, and a fair amount of talent competing for touches.

 
workdog did some nice work in this post where he looked at players based on the order they were drafted rather than by round.

Here are the top 16 RB
Great, all that did was make want to go get Derrick Henry.  :wall:

JK.  It's a decent gage to use as a piece of the larger puzzle.  But there are so many factors it doesn't consider like, teams drafting for specific need, pedigree, intangibles etc. I'm not sure how accurate it is as a forecasting tool. 

 
There is no hypothesis for me to agree or disagree with. Just an empty rhetorical claim.
Who is being condescending now? And how in any way is there (1) no hypothesis or (2) any rhetoric?

Just found this: http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?position=RB&type=position

A casual glance reveals that there were only 3 RBs selected in the first round over the past 4 years. A decade a go that was the average for 1 year. I'll dig a little deeper to avoid any rhetoric, though.

I don't know how long you've been playing, but I'll start in 2000... the 4th RB selected has been: Shaun Alexander, Anthony Thomas, Clinton Portis, Chris Brown, Tatum Bell, JJ Arrington, Joseph Addai, Chris Henry, Rashard Mendenhall, LeSean McCoy, Toby Gerhart, Mikel LeShoure, Isaiah Pead, Eddie Lacy, Sims, Abdullah, Prosise.

I don't want to pass judgment on Sims or Abdullah and I feel LeShoure was ruined by his achilles injury (although he did reach 1000 total yards in 14 games one year), but we can call him a bust if you want. Otherwise, out of the drafts from 2000-2013, 9 out of 14 reached 1000 yards rushing at least once in their NFL careers (does that constitute success?). Looking at that link, BJ Askew was listed as the 4th RB in 2003, but he was a fullback.

Here are the overall selections of the 4th RB by year. Should be enough to see a trend and dispel this rhetoric label you've bestowed upon my assertion.


1990


20


1991


39


1992


45


1993


41


1994


34


1995


19


1996


32


1997


41


1998


29


1999


43


2000


19


2001


38


2002


51


2003


85


2004


41


2005


44


2006


30


2007


50


2008


23


2009


53


2010


51


2011


57


2012


50


2013


61


2014


69


2015


54


2016


90

I don't have him ranked. I don't burn time making projections. I've been down that road. I did it a long time ago when I got paid to do it, but its seems a total waste of time right now for me. My only draft (redraft) will take place a week before the season starts. For now I just try to pay attention to what's going on across the league and familiarize myself with players that might have an opportunity to shine if plugged into the right situation. 
I generally agree that projections are a waste of time (ranges of likely outcomes are slightly better) but sometimes it is a useful exercise to force people to think about realistic expectations for a player. In this day and age, it is hard to justify a top 12 RB pick for a guy not expected to get very many receptions. Your own link talks about Prosise being used in a way that will not necessarily generate a lot of carries for him, but would definitely eat into Rawls' snaps, thus limiting his opportunities. I think 220 rushes and 20 receptions are pushing the limits of his ceiling.

 
The hypothesis was that using draft order instead of round and the draft pick, would be more useful. Useful is defined as "able to be used for a practical purpose or in several ways."

There was nothing further in your statement to support this claim. 

Look at the numbers you posted above.  The draft pick range for the 4th RB is 19 to 90. That is a pretty big range. You have 1st through 3rd round picks in the sample. Incidentally Prosise is the lowest of all these in terms of overall draft position.

If you look at the link to workdogs analysis and charting you see that being the 4th RB selected was not as successful as the first three and was less successful than RB 5 and RB 6 as well. Now I think part of that is due to the random nature of the selection criteria compared to something with a bit more context as when comparing picks by draft round, which gets closer to an apples to apples comparison.

 
Who is being condescending now? And how in any way is there (1) no hypothesis or (2) any rhetoric?

Just found this: http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?position=RB&type=position

A casual glance reveals that there were only 3 RBs selected in the first round over the past 4 years. A decade a go that was the average for 1 year. I'll dig a little deeper to avoid any rhetoric, though.

I don't know how long you've been playing, but I'll start in 2000... the 4th RB selected has been: Shaun Alexander, Anthony Thomas, Clinton Portis, Chris Brown, Tatum Bell, JJ Arrington, Joseph Addai, Chris Henry, Rashard Mendenhall, LeSean McCoy, Toby Gerhart, Mikel LeShoure, Isaiah Pead, Eddie Lacy, Sims, Abdullah, Prosise.

I don't want to pass judgment on Sims or Abdullah and I feel LeShoure was ruined by his achilles injury (although he did reach 1000 total yards in 14 games one year), but we can call him a bust if you want. Otherwise, out of the drafts from 2000-2013, 9 out of 14 reached 1000 yards rushing at least once in their NFL careers (does that constitute success?). Looking at that link, BJ Askew was listed as the 4th RB in 2003, but he was a fullback.

Here are the overall selections of the 4th RB by year. Should be enough to see a trend and dispel this rhetoric label you've bestowed upon my assertion.


1990


20


1991


39


1992


45


1993


41


1994


34


1995


19


1996


32


1997


41


1998


29


1999


43


2000


19


2001


38


2002


51


2003


85


2004


41


2005


44


2006


30


2007


50


2008


23


2009


53


2010


51


2011


57


2012


50


2013


61


2014


69


2015


54


2016


90

I generally agree that projections are a waste of time (ranges of likely outcomes are slightly better) but sometimes it is a useful exercise to force people to think about realistic expectations for a player. In this day and age, it is hard to justify a top 12 RB pick for a guy not expected to get very many receptions. Your own link talks about Prosise being used in a way that will not necessarily generate a lot of carries for him, but would definitely eat into Rawls' snaps, thus limiting his opportunities. I think 220 rushes and 20 receptions are pushing the limits of his ceiling.
I think I'd be more swayed by this info if it showed who the team's current RB1 was when these guys were drafted and what affect it had on him.  

I see Charles Sims in there and he is exactly who this whole discussion reminded me of when this thread started.  When Lovie Smith drafted Sims everyone said how he loved him, much like Carroll loves Prosise.  Everyone was talking about how Doug Martin was just an average back and would lose his job to Sims because it was a new head coach who drafted "his guy".  Now here we are two years later and I see Doug Martin is in the top 5 in many expert rankings, still on the same team with Sims who also has a nice role as third down back.  

I don't want to get into a debate about how Doug Martin was a first round talent and had a larger sample size than Rawls.  I just think it shows there is a good possibility that Rawls ADP can still be high even if Prosise takes on a large role for the Hawks.   

 
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The hypothesis was that using draft order instead of round and the draft pick, would be more useful. Useful is defined as "able to be used for a practical purpose or in several ways."

There was nothing further in your statement to support this claim. 

Look at the numbers you posted above.  The draft pick range for the 4th RB is 19 to 90. That is a pretty big range. You have 1st through 3rd round picks in the sample. Incidentally Prosise is the lowest of all these in terms of overall draft position.

If you look at the link to workdogs analysis and charting you see that being the 4th RB selected was not as successful as the first three and was less successful than RB 5 and RB 6 as well. Now I think part of that is due to the random nature of the selection criteria compared to something with a bit more context as when comparing picks by draft round, which gets closer to an apples to apples comparison.
The point of those data points was to show that the trend is for the 4th RB to be selected later and later, so it should not be surprising that the 4th RB selected this year was the lowest selection for a 4th RB out of all of them. As for the analysis, I find it highly unlikely that the 4th RB selected is somehow cursed to be worse than the 5th and 6th. I don't know how far back his analysis went, but I'd think that would normalize eventually.

And I suppose my earlier point was two pronged: (1) round-by-round analysis based on data 10 years ago is now misleading (2) thus positional rankings would be more useful.

I then supported part (1) with the fact that RBs are indeed being drafted later and later. Due to the fact that we don't have enough data on the more recent RBs, I can't support the second part yet.

I think I'd be more swayed by this info if it showed who the team's current RB1 was when these guys were drafted and what effect it had on him.  

I see Charles Sims in there and he is exactly who this whole discussion reminded me of when this thread started.  When Lovie Smith drafted Sims everyone said how he loved him, much like Carroll loves Prosise.  Everyone was talking about how Doug Martin was just an average back and would lose his job to Sims because it was a new head coach who drafted "his guy".  Now here we are two years later and I see Doug Martin is in the top 5 in many expert rankings, still on the same team with Sims who also has a nice role as third down back.  

I don't want to get into a debate about how Doug Martin was a first round talent and had a larger sample size than Rawls.  I just think it shows there is a good possibility that Rawls ADP can still be high even if Prosise takes on a large role for the Hawks.   
I think the more important aspect is of these guys' eventual success as NFL players. I'm sure some were drafted behind incumbents and had to wait their turn and others got their chance immediately. The point of that exercise was not to show immediate production, but overall talent level and capability of the 4th RB selected. Sims and Abdullah have yet to play out their careers and get their chances, so I excluded them, but of the past 14 guys, 9 of them ran for over 1000 yards in a season, which I think indicates that the 4th RB selected has a greater than 50% chance of NFL success.

I know you don't want to get into a Sims discussion, but there are a few things notable about his situation. 1) He got hurt as a rookie and missed a lot of time (camp, preseason? not sure, but didn't play until week 10) so if Lovie liked him didn't matter, injury kept him back 2) Lovie wasn't the OC. 3) when Sims was healthy, the new OC who didn't draft either back, favored Martin who had rededicated himself to the game that offseason. 4) None of that really matters because he's only played 2 season so we can't even evaluate his career or overall talent.

As for having a high ADP, I just don't think Rawls belongs above guys who have succeeded in the NFL for a larger sample size and have less competition. Guys such as CJA, Hyde, L. Murray, and R. Mathews.

 
I don't know how long you've been playing, but I'll start in 2000... the 4th RB selected has been: Shaun Alexander, Anthony Thomas, Clinton Portis, Chris Brown, Tatum Bell, JJ Arrington, Joseph Addai, Chris Henry, Rashard Mendenhall, LeSean McCoy, Toby Gerhart, Mikel LeShoure, Isaiah Pead, Eddie Lacy, Sims, Abdullah, Prosise.
Did any of these guys play less than one full season in college at RB besides Prosise? I assume the answer is no, but I'm not going to take the time to look it up. So IMO it is not an apples to apples comparison to compare Prosise to all of this group. Of course, that is often the case, since each player and his situation is typically different in various ways.

 
As for having a high ADP, I just don't think Rawls belongs above guys who have succeeded in the NFL for a larger sample size and have less competition. Guys such as CJA, Hyde, L. Murray, and R. Mathews.
Thanks for using those names as examples.  I think that will help make sense of all this.  I can understand why you would make a case for the guys you listed over Rawls.  

I would rank CJA over Rawls this year as well.  Hyde reminds me of Rawls in that you still don't know exactly what you have.  Murray is what he is.  A safe 10-15 points a game.  Mathews could be the best of all, but can't shake that injury prone label so expectations are tempered.  

I think the difference in rankings is represented by upside.  Rawls to me represents more upside than Mathews or Murray and should be lumped with Hyde.  Which goes before the other is personal preference.  CJA seems like the safest option and has decent upside so I would put him above all.

 
I generally agree that projections are a waste of time (ranges of likely outcomes are slightly better) but sometimes it is a useful exercise to force people to think about realistic expectations for a player. In this day and age, it is hard to justify a top 12 RB pick for a guy not expected to get very many receptions. Your own link talks about Prosise being used in a way that will not necessarily generate a lot of carries for him, but would definitely eat into Rawls' snaps, thus limiting his opportunities. I think 220 rushes and 20 receptions are pushing the limits of his ceiling.


I wrote an article called Realistic Projections long ago. Here it is from somewhere around 2001 or 2002. One of my favorite ideas that some other guy swiped and turned into something with a three letter name to make it sound snazzy. AVT? VBD? STD? 

 
Did any of these guys play less than one full season in college at RB besides Prosise? I assume the answer is no, but I'm not going to take the time to look it up. So IMO it is not an apples to apples comparison to compare Prosise to all of this group. Of course, that is often the case, since each player and his situation is typically different in various ways.
I'm going to assume your assumption is correct. I don't see how that is some sort of huge negative for him, though. The dude put up 6.6 ypc against the 8th ranked SoS last year. Just to be clear that's overall SoS, not against the run. That put him in the 90th percentile for yards per carry.

 
I don't think Seattle is looking to replace Rawls.

I believe the picks said quite a bit about their thoughts on Michael, as well as their desire to have a strong running game.  This team does not want to be caught short on running backs. 

I also don't think Rawls should not be nervous.  He's a UDFA who had a great stretch of games.  I have no reason to think he was a flash in the pan.  He looked good to me.  

I don't think the picks change any Rawls ranking for me.  But I am an Alex Collins guy.  I love the way he runs,  and think his bad testing cost him at least a round in the draft.

I will get Collins in every rookie draft

 
I'm going to assume your assumption is correct. I don't see how that is some sort of huge negative for him, though. The dude put up 6.6 ypc against the 8th ranked SoS last year. Just to be clear that's overall SoS, not against the run. That put him in the 90th percentile for yards per carry.
I find your stance here rather contradictory.

You have said repeatedly in this thread that Rawls has "red flags" because he had a small sample size last year in a very favorable situation. In 2015, Rawls had 147 carries for 830 yards (5.6 ypc)... in the NFL.

But in 2015, Prosise had 157 carries for 1029 yards (6.6 ypc)... in college. Just 10 more carries than Rawls had. And Prosise played in a very favorable situation:

  • Notre Dame finished the season ranked #11
  • Notre Dame went 9-1 in the games Prosise played
  • He played with the first OT, second C, and second WR taken in the draft
Given your stance on Rawls, why would you view Prosise as a threat, when he has those same red flags, plus others (ball security, pass protection, lack of experience at RB)?

As for the strength of the run defenses Prosise faced, he faced only 2 rush defenses ranked among the top 40 run defenses. He had 15/50/0 rushing at Clemson and 9/54/0 rushing vs Boston College.

 
I find your stance here rather contradictory.

You have said repeatedly in this thread that Rawls has "red flags" because he had a small sample size last year in a very favorable situation. In 2015, Rawls had 147 carries for 830 yards (5.6 ypc)... in the NFL.

But in 2015, Prosise had 157 carries for 1029 yards (6.6 ypc)... in college. Just 10 more carries than Rawls had. And Prosise played in a very favorable situation:

  • Notre Dame finished the season ranked #11
  • Notre Dame went 9-1 in the games Prosise played
  • He played with the first OT, second C, and second WR taken in the draft
Given your stance on Rawls, why would you view Prosise as a threat, when he has those same red flags, plus others (ball security, pass protection, lack of experience at RB)?

As for the strength of the run defenses Prosise faced, he faced only 2 rush defenses ranked among the top 40 run defenses. He had 15/50/0 rushing at Clemson and 9/54/0 rushing vs Boston College.
The difference is that I keep saying Rawls just needs a drop in ranking whereas you are claiming Prosise is a non-factor. If I was saying Rawls' many red flags mean you should remove him from your draft board then you might be onto something here, but right now your stance on a red flag for Prosise is quite dissimilar to my stance on Rawls and his many red flags. I'm also not saying to ignore the red flag like most people here want to do with Rawls. I'm just saying it doesn't seem as dire to me as it does to you. People act like he's some sort of 190 lbs scat back who ran a 4.6 and converted to RB right before the combine.

Anyway, to the point...

College players routinely play against vastly inferior competition which pads stats. The fact that Notre Dame finished 11th but had an 8th ranked SoS means that the competition was much more equitable for Prosise than most prospects and he still ranked in the 90th percentile for ypc. I'm not saying that means we can ignore the fact that he only played 1 season, but it should lend some credibility to his talent.

The NFL has much more parity than college, so for Rawls to only play in games where his team was winning or tied for 90%+ of regulation makes his situation uniquely favorable. Is it not disconcerting at all that Rawls had a higher ypc last year than he did in college? Seems really fluky to me.

Changing gears, I thought the link Hooper provided was interesting. The scenarios described don't actually steal carries from Rawls, but they do steal snaps. I just don't see how Rawls is going to get a Lynch-like workload if these other guys are getting meaningful snaps. In 2014, Lynch was on the field about 66% of the time, I believe, and he was a 3 down back. Rawls is not, yet you projected something very similar to 2014 Lynch for Rawls next year. Seems very optimistic, no? I'll be absolutely shocked if he hits 30 receptions.

 
College players routinely play against vastly inferior competition which pads stats. The fact that Notre Dame finished 11th but had an 8th ranked SoS means that the competition was much more equitable for Prosise than most prospects and he still ranked in the 90th percentile for ypc. I'm not saying that means we can ignore the fact that he only played 1 season, but it should lend some credibility to his talent.
At minimum, you are ignoring the fact that Prosise missed Notre Dame's final two games against Stanford and Ohio State, which finished ranked #3 and #4, respectively in the final AP poll. Notre Dame may have faced the 8th ranked SOS, but Prosise didn't. Furthermore, you already stated that is SoS, not strength of defense (or run defense) faced.

The NFL has much more parity than college, so for Rawls to only play in games where his team was winning or tied for 90%+ of regulation makes his situation uniquely favorable. Is it not disconcerting at all that Rawls had a higher ypc last year than he did in college? Seems really fluky to me.
No, it doesn't worry me. For one thing, most of his carries in college were at Central Michigan, and I expect he played with a poor supporting cast. Aside from that, I don't expect he is going to maintain a 5.6 ypc going forward.

Changing gears, I thought the link Hooper provided was interesting. The scenarios described don't actually steal carries from Rawls, but they do steal snaps. I just don't see how Rawls is going to get a Lynch-like workload if these other guys are getting meaningful snaps. In 2014, Lynch was on the field about 66% of the time, I believe, and he was a 3 down back. Rawls is not, yet you projected something very similar to 2014 Lynch for Rawls next year. Seems very optimistic, no? I'll be absolutely shocked if he hits 30 receptions.
The biggest difference between our views is that you seem to believe that the other RBs (plural) are going to get meaningful snaps. I don't, barring injuries, and I don't attempt to predict injuries. I expect Rawls to get about 70% of the snaps. The others will divide up the rest in some manner based on roles and how well they play.

In 2014, Lynch was on the field about 66% of the time, I believe, and he was a 3 down back. Rawls is not, yet you projected something very similar to 2014 Lynch for Rawls next year. Seems very optimistic, no? I'll be absolutely shocked if he hits 30 receptions.
Last year, Rawls played just under 25% of the Seattle snaps, and he had 9 receptions. So simple extrapolation gets very close to 30, given the snap count I expect. And I expect his two 3 reception games among his last 3 full games is more representative of how the team will use him in the passing game going forward than the early season games. YMMV.

Lynch was great in Seattle from 2011 to 2014. During those 4 seasons, he had 124/1091/8 receiving on 163 targets. That is an average of 31/273/2 on 41 targets per season. He had 25/195/2 on 36 targets on 3rd and 4th down, an average of 6/49/0.5 per season. So there is no reason to believe Rawls has to catch a lot of third down passes to get to 30 receptions.

 
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I'll give some projections. I expect Rawls will be healthy to start the season, he will be the starter, and the team will use him similar to how Lynch was used. Assuming he plays 16 games:

270 carries, 1240 rushing yards (4.6 ypc), 10 rushing TDs, 30 receptions, 240 receiving yards, 1 receiving TD

That would rank him in the top 5 in both PPR and non-PPR. I don't formally produce rankings, but, if I did, I would have him in my top 5 RBs in both dynasty and redraft.

Does this mean I advocate drafting him in the top 5? Fortunately, that isn't necessary. Per FantasyPros, he is being drafted in the 8-13 range. IMO he is a bargain at that point. Also, Lacy and Elliott are shown as the next two RBs drafted, and I expect they will both eventually move ahead of Rawls in ADP, which would make him an even better value.
Rawls is a bargain at 8 to 13???? The hype is officially of the rails. 

 
At minimum, you are ignoring the fact that Prosise missed Notre Dame's final two games against Stanford and Ohio State, which finished ranked #3 and #4, respectively in the final AP poll. Notre Dame may have faced the 8th ranked SOS, but Prosise didn't. Furthermore, you already stated that is SoS, not strength of defense (or run defense) faced.

No, it doesn't worry me. For one thing, most of his carries in college were at Central Michigan, and I expect he played with a poor supporting cast. Aside from that, I don't expect he is going to maintain a 5.6 ypc going forward.

The biggest difference between our views is that you seem to believe that the other RBs (plural) are going to get meaningful snaps. I don't, barring injuries, and I don't attempt to predict injuries. I expect Rawls to get about 70% of the snaps. The others will divide up the rest in some manner based on roles and how well they play.

Last year, Rawls played just under 25% of the Seattle snaps, and he had 9 receptions. So simple extrapolation gets very close to 30, given the snap count I expect. And I expect his two 3 reception games among his last 3 full games is more representative of how the team will use him in the passing game going forward than the early season games. YMMV.

Lynch was great in Seattle from 2011 to 2014. During those 4 seasons, he had 124/1091/8 receiving on 163 targets. That is an average of 31/273/2 on 41 targets per season. He had 25/195/2 on 36 targets on 3rd and 4th down, an average of 6/49/0.5 per season. So there is no reason to believe Rawls has to catch a lot of third down passes to get to 30 receptions.
Correct, I didn't realize he missed those games. I haven't looked into him that deeply as I'm not actually that interested in him in terms of 2016 FF. He's just another Rawls red flag to me.

I really doubt Central Michigan was punching above their weight class. If they were and Rawls was looking good then he'd have probably been drafted.

Lynch was better than Rawls in all facets of the game and had very little competition yet he only got like 66% of the snaps. There's no way Rawls gets 70% unless everyone else gets hurt. And yes, RBs is plural. I think Prosise is on the field a lot for passing plays like that article by Hooper suggested. I think he'll have a role similar to Sproles in NO where he's rarely asked to block - he's either running a draw or a route. Also, I'd be wary of Michael if I owned Rawls. All it'll take is one loose screw getting tightened up. I've acknowledged there's less than a 50% chance of this, but his undeniable talent is still lingering. How many top 12 RBs have a backup that can run circles around them?

We all know by now that extrapolation is a dangerous game. Who was the pass catching back on the roster when Rawls caught his 9 passes? Ancient Fred Jackson? So your argument is that Lynch averaged 25 receptions per season on 1st and 2nd down, yet you think this early down runner is going to somehow exceed those numbers by Lynch? Or he's going to steal 3rd downs from the supposed specialist they just drafted?

Look, you do some good analysis. I'm not trying to be hard on you. I just think you've got some bias on this one. I'm looking at it from a redraft point, so I have no incentive one way or another. From where I stand I see a huge range for Rawls, from he arrives at camp late and loses his job to early down workhorse with 220 carries and 20 receptions. What I don't see is him taking over 100% of Lynch's snaps (or more as you estimate). It was always Lynch + a backup + maybe a third guy who rarely sees the field. This year it'll be Rawls + Michael + Prosise with maybe some Collins sprinkled in if he shows well (I read he's a good pass blocker). RBBC is looming ominously. Maybe it doesn't hit, but it is there, scaring me away from Rawls' ADP.

 
Lynch was better than Rawls in all facets of the game and had very little competition yet he only got like 66% of the snaps. There's no way Rawls gets 70% unless everyone else gets hurt.
In 2014, Lynch got 66% of the snaps despite playing through back and calf injuries and multiple illnesses throughout that season. He did not start two games. He left the Chargers game after only 6 carries due to his back. He missed the first quarter of one game and missed multiple series in another game due to illness. If Lynch was totally healthy in 2014, I expect he would have reached 70%+ of the offensive snaps. As I said earlier, I project Rawls to get 70% of the snaps assuming he remains healthy, so there is an apples to oranges element here. But even if he only gets 60%, he will still dominate the RB touches.

Believe me, I get it, you don't think Rawls will play as many snaps as I do. I am fine agreeing to disagree with you on this.

I think Prosise is on the field a lot for passing plays like that article by Hooper suggested. I think he'll have a role similar to Sproles in NO where he's rarely asked to block - he's either running a draw or a route.
The Seahawks ran 12% of their plays in 2014 out of an empty backfield set, which was third highest in the league. I could certainly see Prosise being in for a lot of those plays. I certainly don't think they are going to radically increase the number of those plays they run because they have Prosise.

Sproles played 31% of the Saints' offensive snaps in 2013, his final season in New Orleans (can't find data for his prior seasons). I think you are way off base if you think Prosise will play that much on offense, barring injury to others.

Also, I'd be wary of Michael if I owned Rawls. All it'll take is one loose screw getting tightened up. I've acknowledged there's less than a 50% chance of this, but his undeniable talent is still lingering. How many top 12 RBs have a backup that can run circles around them?
Well, 3 teams had Michael as a backup that could run circles around their starter just last season, and all 3 of those teams cut him, including Seattle. Sure, there is a non-zero possibility that he finally puts it all together and gets a lot of snaps. But you should adjust your "less than 50%" to "less than 10%" IMO.

So your argument is that Lynch averaged 25 receptions per season on 1st and 2nd down, yet you think this early down runner is going to somehow exceed those numbers by Lynch? Or he's going to steal 3rd downs from the supposed specialist they just drafted?
Yes, Rawls will play some third downs.

It was always Lynch + a backup + maybe a third guy who rarely sees the field. This year it'll be Rawls + Michael + Prosise with maybe some Collins sprinkled in if he shows well (I read he's a good pass blocker). RBBC is looming ominously. Maybe it doesn't hit, but it is there, scaring me away from Rawls' ADP.
In 2014, Lynch had 280 carries and 48 targets, despite the health issues mentioned above. Meanwhile, other RBs had 109 carries and 26 targets. Rawls could get 300 touches and there would still be over 100 touches available to the other RBs.

Of the 4 RBs you named here, I expect Prosise to be used extensively on special teams, but it seems unlikely any of the other 3 will be ace special teams players. It seems safe to assume Rawls and Prosise will be active for every game if healthy. If it is true that Michael and Collins are not strong special teams contributors, it seems unlikely to me that both of them will be active for games unless Rawls and/or Prosise are inactive for some reason. So I don't think Rawls + Michael + Prosise + Collins "sprinkled in" will happen for many games, if any.

Much more likely is Rawls getting 65-70% of the snaps on offense, Prosise playing most/all special teams snaps and 20-25% of the snaps on offense, and whichever RB is active getting the rest of the snaps on offense, which would amount to 5-15%.

I just think you've got some bias on this one. I'm looking at it from a redraft point, so I have no incentive one way or another.
I have a strong opinion on Rawls, does that equate to bias? If so, so be it. One thing I have learned through my years in fantasy football is that it is important to form opinions on young players early, without waiting to see it on the field in a large sample size, since by the time you have seen that, so have all of the other owners. This absolutely carries with it some risk of being wrong. I'm fine with that.

I find it amusing that you portray me as having bias but portray yourself as objective. If you are truly objective, I wouldn't have expected you to characterize those with opposing viewpoints in such unflattering terms in multiple threads.

Anyway, at this point, you can have the last word. I agree to disagree for now and look forward to seeing how it plays out.

 
I have a strong opinion on Rawls, does that equate to bias? If so, so be it. One thing I have learned through my years in fantasy football is that it is important to form opinions on young players early, without waiting to see it on the field in a large sample size, since by the time you have seen that, so have all of the other owners. This absolutely carries with it some risk of being wrong. I'm fine with that.

I find it amusing that you portray me as having bias but portray yourself as objective. If you are truly objective, I wouldn't have expected you to characterize those with opposing viewpoints in such unflattering terms in multiple threads.

Anyway, at this point, you can have the last word. I agree to disagree for now and look forward to seeing how it plays out.
I'm not saying a strong opinion equates to bias. I'm purely stating that I sense bias. I agree with you that if you wait for a large sample size, others will have taken notice, too. But that doesn't take into account the "what have you done for me lately" approach that leads to ADPs and rankings. What I've been saying this whole time is that you aren't getting any small sample or early bandwagon discount on Rawls. Given his ADP, he might as well have run for 1200 yards last year. CJA has 338 NFL carries (reg season) @ 4.8 ypc and legitimate 3 down ability yet he's somehow being drafted after Rawls. If we were talking about dynasty and Jerrick McKinnon then yeah, there's a nice discount due to tiny sample size on a guy with possibly top 10 talent, but with Rawls there isn't a discount (at least not in redraft). My point is that you are paying a "proven" price for a guy that is largely unproven.

As for my portrayal of other viewpoints, it totally depends how they are constructed and the tone in which they responded to a more conservative take on Rawls. You've put time and thought into your discussions on him, but most people in that other thread were not articulate at all. It sure seemed like a bunch of mouth breathers whose "research" amounts to nothing more than watching the same youtube highlights over and over. Had everyone put the time and thought into their responses as you, I'd have a different take on the quality of the group think going on in there.

I'm not looking for the last word here - just explaining where I'm coming from. I'm not even that interested in the discussion anymore. Given his ADP, Rawls will be a guy I think I can safely remove from my mental radar as it is a near certainty that he'll be gone (or bid up) long before I have any interest in taking on his red flags.

 
Auto correct got me. It's a ppr league. 2RB 2WR and a flex.
No problem.  I've heard of some leagues going to point per touch - to try and make the RB more relevant again, as true PPRs have really made WRs the go to position, especially in dynasty formats. 

 
There has been some discussion on Rawls' value in this thread. I share a dynasty team with @Bruce Hammond. We accepted this trade offer this morning:

Obtained:

  • Rawls, Thomas SEA RB
  • Michael, Christine SEA RB
For:

  • Mathews, Ryan PHI RB
  • Tate, Golden DET WR
 
 

Seahawks coach Pete Carroll says the "hope" remains that Thomas Rawls (ankle) is ready for Week 1.
The same is true for Jimmy Graham (patellar tendon). The Seahawks haven't really offered anything new on Rawls in recent months, but it remains notable that they can't guarantee his Week 1 status. Rawls offers mammoth upside as a potential workhorse back in a run-heavy offense, but his health is a major question mark. Third-rounder C.J. Prosise and Christine Michael are the next men up.

Related: Jimmy Graham
 
Source: Bob Condotta on Twitter 
May 26 - 5:02 PM


 
 

Seahawks coach Pete Carroll says the "hope" remains that Thomas Rawls (ankle) is ready for Week 1.
The same is true for Jimmy Graham (patellar tendon). The Seahawks haven't really offered anything new on Rawls in recent months, but it remains notable that they can't guarantee his Week 1 status. Rawls offers mammoth upside as a potential workhorse back in a run-heavy offense, but his health is a major question mark. Third-rounder C.J. Prosise and Christine Michael are the next men up.

Related: Jimmy Graham
 
Source: Bob Condotta on Twitter 
May 26 - 5:02 PM
So, that's not scary or anything.  

 
There has been some discussion on Rawls' value in this thread. I share a dynasty team with @Bruce Hammond. We accepted this trade offer this morning:

Obtained:

  • Rawls, Thomas SEA RB
  • Michael, Christine SEA RB
For:

  • Mathews, Ryan PHI RB
  • Tate, Golden DET WR
Not an owner anywhere of any Seahawk RBs, former or present, but in general there seems to be a bit too much chatter going around about this situation for me to feel comfortable settling in and locking onto a particular guy. 

I've seen a couple of trades in leagues where guys have paid a lot for Rawls so I understand there are firm believers. Just cross your fingers that this doesn't become a timeshare with both these guys, Prosise andCollins (or even Lynch should he resurface).

Collins is an interesting guy to me. I think he could do well on that team if he had far less obstacles in his way. I think he could easily had been what Rawls is expected to be on that team had he been available last year instead of Rawls.

 
Bleacher Report's Jason Cole reports retired RB Marshawn Lynch "told two ex-teammates that he is still thinking about playing this upcoming season."

Richard Sherman said earlier this month he is not convinced Lynch is retired for good, and Michael Bennett said he thinks Lynch could "make an appearance later on." It is possible Sherman and Bennett are the two ex-teammates referenced in the report. For what it is worth, Lynch's agent maintains his client is not considering playing this season. One of the most interesting characters in the league over the last decade, it is far from surprising Lynch's retirement has turned into something of a circus.
Seahawks coach Pete Carroll says "retired" RB Marshawn Lynch hasn't contacted him about playing in 2016.

Lynch's "retirement" seems to be written more in air quotes every day, but for now, he's sitting out the 2016 season. Perhaps Lynch will try to parachute in on the year during training camp, avoiding the rigors some veterans come to detest.
Well, I wouldn't put it past Marshawn to pull a 180 and then decide to play.  The question of course is how the team would accommodate him financially if he really were interested in playing.  Obviously if Lynch comes back then we can essentially close this thread.  I felt very good about owning Rawls at the end of last year in my keeper league thinking that I was going to get a workhorse back for this coming season.  That he would be easily a round 2 pick.  But as the offseason progresses, the NFL draft, and the concerns about him not being ready, it seems less of a sure thing.  Happy of course to have him - Seattle is very run friendly, and even if Michael and the rook play significantly and that Rawls isn't involved much in the passing game, the hope is that he sees enough goalline action to turn into a valuable investment.

I've tempered my expectations from low end RB1 to a high upside RB2.  I'm able to keep him at a low cost, but if I was in a redraft league, I would let somebody else spend a second or high third round pick on him and look elsewhere.

 
Right now T Rawls ADP is the 3rd round which is a LOT closer to his ceiling
then his floor. In the 3rd round I'd take L McCoy, R Cobb, or even J Reed
and take R Matthews in the 4th or M Gordon who in the 5th and at RB26
is the guy I think could easily move up to RB 8-12.

 
There has been some discussion on Rawls' value in this thread. I share a dynasty team with @Bruce Hammond. We accepted this trade offer this morning:

Obtained:

  • Rawls, Thomas SEA RB
  • Michael, Christine SEA RB
For:

  • Mathews, Ryan PHI RB
  • Tate, Golden DET WR
I think this is a very solid dynasty deal for Rawls. Would have accepted that myself. 

 
Seahawks coach Pete Carroll "absolutely" expects Thomas Rawls (ankle) to be ready for Week 1.
However, as he has been the case all offseason, Carroll was cagey with an official timeline. In a truly eye-opening remark, Carroll said Jimmy Graham was a "little ahead" of Rawls. Graham was injured earlier, and suffered a torn patellar tendon, one of the most serious injuries a football player can endure. Rawls, who didn't even have surgery, is evidently recovering from about as severe of an ankle issue as possible. He has big-time upside as the lead runner for a run-heavy offense, but will have all sorts of injury question marks until/if we see him on the preseason field.

 
 
Source: John Boyle on Twitter
Jun 16 - 5:10 PM

 

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