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Mike Tomlin...is it time to go?

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3 minutes ago, dutch said:

How many other teams have won SB's in that time frame?

I get it that you think the Steelers should have won another Super Bowl or two and so Tomlin should be sacked.  However the Steelers don't operate that way -- they're not going to sack a coach with Tomlin's record, they just aren't.   Things will have to go significantly worse for that to happen -- at least a losing season or two.

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15 minutes ago, dutch said:

If you extend out to seven years, cuz we're cherry picking, Tomlin's Steelers are 3-5 in the playoffs, one first round bye, one AFC Championship games, 0 SB's

And if you extend it all the way back to the beginning of his career in 2007, it's 8-7 with three AFCCG appearances, two SB appearances and one victory. Which is pretty good! Carroll is 9-5 with the Seahawks (10-7 career) and 2/2/1. Harbaugh is 10-5 and 3/1/1, but he's also only made the playoffs once since 2012. Payton is 7-5, 2/1/1 and has missed the playoffs in five of 11 years.

I'd say Carroll is better, but Tomlin is clearly No. 3 (and for the record, Tomlin has a better regular-season win % than any of those coaches).

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I'm not really advocating for Tomlin to get fired but there is a counter point to be made to his great regular season record.  His lack of playoff success is pretty sobering, imo.

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10 minutes ago, dutch said:

2017 0-1(1st rd bye)

2016 2-1

2015 1-1

2014 0-1

2013 0-0

2012 0-0

2011 0-1

5 of 7 years= 0 playoff wins

2005: 1-1

2006: 2-1

2007: 2-1

2008: 0-0

2009: 0-1

2010: 0-1 (1st rd bye)

3 of 5 years = 0 playoff wins

(Oops, sorry. Meant to post this in the "Time for Belichick to go!" thread in 2011)

Edited by zftcg

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1 minute ago, dutch said:

I'm not really advocating for Tomlin to get fired but there is a counter point to be made to his great regular season record.  His lack of playoff success is pretty sobering, imo.

How many of those years was he without Ben, Brown, or Bell?

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Just now, BassNBrew said:

How many of those years was he without Ben, Brown, or Bell?

0-1 with all three this year

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1 minute ago, zftcg said:

2005: 1-1

2006: 2-1

2007: 2-1

2008: 0-0

2009: 0-1

2010: 0-1 (1st rd bye)

3 of 5 years = 0 playoff wins

(Oops, sorry. Meant to post this in the "Time for Belichick to go!" thread in 2011)

3 sb Wins prior

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From 1990-1995 Marty Schottenheimer was 3-6 with 1 Conf game appearance, one first round bye and 0 sb appearances.  Tomlin does have prior success to lean on but how long a leash does he get?

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Tomlin is frustrating on game days for sure with what seems like seat-of-his-pants decision making at times, but in game decision making is an area where he can improve.  I realize we are still waiting for that improvement, but I like him as the Steelers coach in every other way.  

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1 minute ago, dutch said:

From 1990-1995 Marty Schottenheimer was 3-6 with 1 Conf game appearance, one first round bye and 0 sb appearances.  Tomlin does have prior success to lean on but how long a leash does he get?

The Steelers have had 3 coaches since 1969 - so given his success (yes, he's been successful) his leash is very, very long.

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btw, I do think Tomlin has been a valuable asset for the Steelers organization just wanted to show that he has warts and depending on next season it may be time to re-evaluate his position.

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3 minutes ago, dutch said:

From 1990-1995 Marty Schottenheimer was 3-6 with 1 Conf game appearance, one first round bye and 0 sb appearances.  Tomlin does have prior success to lean on but how long a leash does he get?

From 1992-2004 Bill Cowher was 8-9 with 4 championship game appearances (three of which resulted in home losses) and one SB (which he also lost).

So to answer your question, probably a pretty long one.

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Is Fichtner going to change up the offense much? Or, since he was promoted from within, is it going to be more of the same? With too many da*ned bubble screens.

Also, Quinn might have gone to the Super Bowl, but a lot of credit should go to Shanahan and the offense. Quinn had almost the same personnel this year...

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Also worth pointing out: In this century (possibly longer but I'm too lazy to look it up), only three SB-winning coaches have been fired: Shanahan, Gruden and Billick. The latter worked out pretty well, but the other two were absolute disasters for the organizations. 

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16 minutes ago, steelers1080 said:

Is Fichtner going to change up the offense much? Or, since he was promoted from within, is it going to be more of the same? With too many da*ned bubble screens.

 

I would think the game plans will be significantly different but I don't see them making a ton of changes to the playbook, terminology, etc.  My biggest problem with Haley was he often tried to get too cute for his own good.   Take what the defenses give you and make adjustments.  And for God's sake please put the QB sneak back in the playbook!

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51 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

I would think the game plans will be significantly different but I don't see them making a ton of changes to the playbook, terminology, etc.  My biggest problem with Haley was he often tried to get too cute for his own good.   Take what the defenses give you and make adjustments.  And for God's sake please put the QB sneak back in the playbook!

As a fan I never thought I'd say this but I think the Steelers are to aggressive.  I'm not even that aggressive when I play Madden.

As this relates to the offensive play calling. I've had a major gripe the last few seasons on third and short, and sometimes 4th and short, we throw long to intermediate passes. Now I realize that worked a few times Sunday, but I don't like the percentages and when you are in that situation not getting a first down is same as a turnover. What I'm really curious to see unfold next year was this due to Haley or Big Ben? Same thing for the QB sneak, is it Haley or did Big Ben say he does not like it? I'd add if Ben is quoted as saying he does not know why they don't use the sneak I'm not buying it.

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7 hours ago, Godsbrother said:

I get it that you think the Steelers should have won another Super Bowl or two and so Tomlin should be sacked.  However the Steelers don't operate that way -- they're not going to sack a coach with Tomlin's record, they just aren't.   Things will have to go significantly worse for that to happen -- at least a losing season or two.

So basically when Ben retires.  Can't f in wait least will get rid of the band wagon fans, when we see Tomlin with out a HOF  qb.

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7 hours ago, zftcg said:

From 1992-2004 Bill Cowher was 8-9 with 4 championship game appearances (three of which resulted in home losses) and one SB (which he also lost).

So to answer your question, probably a pretty long one.

All without the resemblance of a good Qb, huge difference. Huge!

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2 hours ago, bucksoh said:

All without the resemblance of a good Qb, huge difference. Huge!

Good point. Any coach with a future HOFer at QB should have won multiple SBs. You know, like Payton has. Or McCarthy. Or Carroll. Or Dungy.

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13 hours ago, Godsbrother said:

Yep exactly the same.  The Lions routinely get rid of head coaches that have taken them to Super Bowls, never had losing seasons and average >10 wins per seasons.

 

Newsflash!  Lions have never been to the Super Bowl, guy. 

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1 minute ago, Doctor Detroit said:

Newsflash!  Lions have never been to the Super Bowl, guy. 

SHHHH! For a second, I was able to close my eyes and imagine the Lions average 10 wins a year and make Super Bowls.

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Tomlin is a glorified cheerleader. In my mind his team is the most talented in the AFC, yet they consistently underperform. Tomlin is an undisciplined coach whose attitude rubs off on his team. On top of that he is a terrible X’s and O’s guy.

A couple of recent examples

1/ Tomlin publicly admitted to overlooking opponents and focusing on a matchup with the Patriots. What kind of message does this send to his team? Could you imagine Bill Belichick doing this and them admitting it to the media?

2/ The night before the AFC semi finals vs the Jaguars (a team that crushed the Steelers earlier in the season) Le’Veon Bell was up at 1am getting in Twitter wars with Patriots fans. This is the same guy who was publicly complaining about his contract the week of the AFC semi finals. Again, can you imagine a disciplined coach like Belichick allowing this?

I could go on, but everyone know all the stories about the Steelers. Pittsburgh probably can’t justify firing Tomlin as the team is always competitive, but if I were calling the shots he wouldn’t be the guy I’d want leading my team

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3 hours ago, bucksoh said:

So basically when Ben retires.  Can't f in wait least will get rid of the band wagon fans, when we see Tomlin with out a HOF  qb.

You keep insinuating that you're going to be happy when Ben retires.  Be careful what you wish for.

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56 minutes ago, Saboo said:

I could go on, but everyone know all the stories about the Steelers. Pittsburgh probably can’t justify firing Tomlin as the team is always competitive, but if I were calling the shots he wouldn’t be the guy I’d want leading my team

Yeah, it's really unfortunate for the Steelers that he keeps winning. If only they had a coach who lost more, then the team could really improve!

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1 minute ago, zftcg said:

Yeah, it's really unfortunate for the Steelers that he keeps winning. If only they had a coach who lost more, then the team could really improve!

But they’re not winning :shrug: Superficial success. Going through years of Reid when knowing how the story would end every year, I can relate to Steeler fans looking for a change despite the feeling that outsiders/fans of the Browns think you’re nuts. 

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14 minutes ago, JetMaxx said:

But they’re not winning :shrug: Superficial success. Going through years of Reid when knowing how the story would end every year, I can relate to Steeler fans looking for a change despite the feeling that outsiders/fans of the Browns think you’re nuts. 

Assume from your comment that you're an Eagles fan. Hard to see how the Reid example argues in favor of firing Tomlin. Philly got rid of him and hired the hottest HC candidate on the market. It was a disaster. They've finally started to rebuild and get back to where they were ... by hiring Reid's former assistant.  And oh by the way, the most likely outcome to their season will be that they lose in the NFCCG again. Talk about full circle!

Anyway, Tomlin has had way more postseason success than Reid, and also more than just about every other coach in the NFL. Again, tell me who beside Belichick has a better postseason track record over the past 10 years. Arguably Carroll, but who else? Harbaugh? Payton? I'd put Tomlin up against any of them.

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11 hours ago, zftcg said:

Also worth pointing out: In this century (possibly longer but I'm too lazy to look it up), only three SB-winning coaches have been fired: Shanahan, Gruden and Billick. The latter worked out pretty well, but the other two were absolute disasters for the organizations. 

Duh, realized I forgot Coughlin Who further supports my thesis that firing a SB-winning coach because you're impatient tends not to work out.

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7 minutes ago, zftcg said:

Assume from your comment that you're an Eagles fan. Hard to see how the Reid example argues in favor of firing Tomlin. Philly got rid of him and hired the hottest HC candidate on the market. It was a disaster. They've finally started to rebuild and get back to where they were ... by hiring Reid's former assistant.  And oh by the way, the most likely outcome to their season will be that they lose in the NFCCG again. Talk about full circle!

Anyway, Tomlin has had way more postseason success than Reid, and also more than just about every other coach in the NFL. Again, tell me who beside Belichick has a better postseason track record over the past 10 years. Arguably Carroll, but who else? Harbaugh? Payton? I'd put Tomlin up against any of them.

Superficial Success. You will eventually come to the reality.

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6 minutes ago, JetMaxx said:

Superficial Success. You will eventually come to the reality.

How is winning a Super Bowl superficial?

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1 hour ago, zftcg said:

How is winning a Super Bowl superficial?

Not only has he won a Super Bowl but he lost a Super Bowl as an underdog where his team had an opportunity for a game winning drive (Ben threw an int).  Additionally he coaches in a conference where he has to get through the greatest QB/coach duo in the history of the game.  The comparison to Reid just shows his ignorance.     :shrug: 

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7 hours ago, fred_1_15301 said:

Not only has he won a Super Bowl but he lost a Super Bowl as an underdog where his team had an opportunity for a game winning drive (Ben threw an int).  Additionally he coaches in a conference where he has to get through the greatest QB/coach duo in the history of the game.  The comparison to Reid just shows his ignorance.     :shrug: 

Eh, that argument doesn't work, since Tomlin's Steelers have only lost to the Patriots in the playoffs once.  I saw on TV the other day, where a commentator was acting like the Steelers would have been to a bunch more Super Bowls if not for the Patriots, but, no, not really.  Tomlin's Steelers have lost to Tebow's Broncos, Bortles' Jags and Garrard's Jags as many times in the playoffs as they have lost to Brady's Patriots. 

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5 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

Eh, that argument doesn't work, since Tomlin's Steelers have only lost to the Patriots in the playoffs once.  I saw on TV the other day, where a commentator was acting like the Steelers would have been to a bunch more Super Bowls if not for the Patriots, but, no, not really.  Tomlin's Steelers have lost to Tebow's Broncos, Bortles' Jags and Garrard's Jags as many times in the playoffs as they have lost to Brady's Patriots. 

So basically they lose to great defenses. 

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14 hours ago, bucksoh said:

So basically when Ben retires.  Can't f in wait least will get rid of the band wagon fans, when we see Tomlin with out a HOF  qb.

Bill Austin was head coach and Kent Nix was the QB when I starting going to Steelers games and I've been a season ticket holder since the 70s. 

How long will it take until I'm not considered a bandwagon fan?    :kicksrock:

 

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44 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

Eh, that argument doesn't work, since Tomlin's Steelers have only lost to the Patriots in the playoffs once.  I saw on TV the other day, where a commentator was acting like the Steelers would have been to a bunch more Super Bowls if not for the Patriots, but, no, not really.  Tomlin's Steelers have lost to Tebow's Broncos, Bortles' Jags and Garrard's Jags as many times in the playoffs as they have lost to Brady's Patriots. 

Ok fine.  2-3 bad playoff losses in the Tomlin era.

2007 - Steelers were actually home dogs against a pretty good Jags team.  They lost but that game came down to the wire

2008 - Superbowl win

2010 - Superbowl loss to the favored Packers.  Again, the game came down to the last drive when Ben's int sealed it.

2011 - Steelers lose to Tebow.  Terrible loss but that Steelers team was dealing with a lot of injuries on defense and it showed.  Still a bad loss though.

2014 - Steelers lose to Ravens.  Those 2 teams were not very far apart to begin with but the injury to Leveon killed the Steelers. The Ravens just dominated that game and were clearly the better team without Bell.

2015 - Steelers lose to Denver (eventual super bowl winner).  This would have been a pretty big upset as the Steelers were without Brown and Bell.  they still made it exciting Ben probably had more success against that defense than anyone else in the playoffs.

2016 - Steelers lose to the Patriots (eventual super bowl winner).  Patriots were favored but I'll concede that this was probably a bad loss.  It wasn't the fact that they lost but it was how unprepared they were against Brady.  

2017 - Steelers lose to Jags at home.  This was a bad loss and Tomlin was outcoached (and possibly a little unprepared).

So he's had a few bad playoff losses (most coaches have) but he's also had some success.  The success was mostly earlier in his career but it still should count.  Right now I believe he's a top 10 coach but the story isn't finished yet.

 

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If the Steelers don't win the 2018 Season Superbowl, and Ben is healthy, and off the field crap happens, then Tomlin will be fired after next season.

If they win the Superbowl, or if they lose a star that causes them to lose in the playoffs, or if 0 off the field crap happens and they just get out played, then Tomlin will be back. The offense is incredibly talented, the defense is deficient, and the special teams is a crap shoot. If Colbert/Tomlin kill the draft and reload the defense as well as they have the past couple years, then they should easily be contenders again next year. 

2017: Watt, Sutton, Hilton

2016: Burns, Davis, Hargrave, Matakevich

Both years they did fairly well with their defensive picks (and a UDFA). Davis  seemed to step back a bit, especially on tackling, and Burns didn't seem to take a huge step forward, but he's still raw. They could both improve into year 3, and they should improve. 

A solid draft in 2018 that is defense-heavy could get 3 starters on defense, or 2 starters and a very solid backup/starter in 2019. They need help at ILB, S, and OLB.

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48 minutes ago, fred_1_15301 said:

2015 - Steelers lose to Denver (eventual super bowl winner).  This would have been a pretty big upset as the Steelers were without Brown and Bell.  they still made it exciting Ben probably had more success against that defense than anyone else in the playoffs.

After that game I texted my Steelers fan buddy: "Ha ha, you lost because your third-string RB fumbled the ball." The fact that, before Toussaint's fumble, they were on track to beat Denver despite being without Bell, Brown and DWilliams is pretty impressive.

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1 minute ago, zftcg said:

After that game I texted my Steelers fan buddy: "Ha ha, you lost because your third-string RB fumbled the ball." The fact that, before Toussaint's fumble, they were on track to beat Denver despite being without Bell, Brown and DWilliams is pretty impressive.

Yup they certainly could have won that game.  In some way, I'm glad that they didn't because if they did, we would be looking at another Patriots superbowl win      :X

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One thing I think is a fair rap on Tomlin is that, for a guy who's been in his job as long as he has, he should have at least a semblance of a coaching tree. Arians doesn't really count considering that Tomlin most likely forced him out (he "retired" voluntarily in 2012 and then immediately took the Colts OC job). And Lebeau was obviously there before Tomlin arrived. Haley and Butler haven't been bad, but it's not like either have used their success in Pittsburgh to become the next hot HC prospects.

Usually, when teams have success, other teams rush in to hire their coordinators in an effort to bring that winning attitude to their own franchises (like what we're seeing right now with McDaniels and Patricia). It's kind of weird that, as successful as Tomlin has been, no one has tried to do that with his assistants.

Edited by zftcg

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4 minutes ago, zftcg said:

One thing I think is a fair rap on Tomlin is that, for a guy who's been in his job as long as he has, he should have at least a semblance of a coaching tree. Arians doesn't really count considering that Tomlin most likely forced him out. And Lebeau was obviously there before Tomlin arrived. Haley and Butler haven't been bad, but it's not like either have used their success in Pittsburgh to become the next hot HC prospects.

Usually, when teams have success, other teams rush in to hire their coordinators in an effort to bring that winning attitude to their own franchises (like what we're seeing right now with McDaniels and Patricia). It's kind of weird that, as successful as Tomlin has been, no one has tried to do that with his assistants.

I am not a Tomlin fan but in fairness BB really doesn't have a successful coaching tree as well (talking about those that have coached under him in New England)...no one that has coached under him has really done too much...McDaniels flamed out in Denver, Crennell was not successful, Mangini showed a glimmer but than busted and O'Brien is still pretty much an incomplete but early results are nothing special...that may change with McDaniels part 2 and Patricia but right now it has not been impressive...I heard a guy on the radio (forgot who) who said one of the reasons the coaching in the NFL is so subpar is because the dominant mind (BB) is not producing great coaches like a Bill Walsh did...

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1 minute ago, Boston said:

I am not a Tomlin fan but in fairness BB really doesn't have a successful coaching tree as well (talking about those that have coached under him in New England)...no one that has coached under him has really done too much...McDaniels flamed out in Denver, Crennell was not successful, Mangini showed a glimmer but than busted and O'Brien is still pretty much an incomplete but early results are nothing special...that may change with McDaniels part 2 and Patricia but right now it has not been impressive...I heard a guy on the radio (forgot who) who said one of the reasons the coaching in the NFL is so subpar is because the dominant mind (BB) is not producing great coaches like a Bill Walsh did...

True, but at least BB's assistants have gotten hired. Tomlin's haven't even been considered.

Consider Haley vs. McDaniels. Both were former up-and-comers who got their first HC jobs around the same time, and both flamed out (Haley's early success notwithstanding). McDaniels has slowly rebuilt his image to the point where, for the past couple years, he could have had his pick of HC jobs. Haley, despite running an offense that is consistently in the Top 10, hasn't been mentioned for any openings. He just got fired and will, at best, take a lateral move to another OC role.

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1 minute ago, zftcg said:

True, but at least BB's assistants have gotten hired. Tomlin's haven't even been considered.

Consider Haley vs. McDaniels. Both were former up-and-comers who got their first HC jobs around the same time, and both flamed out (Haley's early success notwithstanding). McDaniels has slowly rebuilt his image to the point where, for the past couple years, he could have had his pick of HC jobs. Haley, despite running an offense that is consistently in the Top 10, hasn't been mentioned for any openings. He just got fired and will, at best, take a lateral move to another OC role.

Gotta disagree with you about Haley...I think he has a reputation as combative personality who can be a distraction...I don't think he is HC material regardless of who he is under...

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Just now, Boston said:

Gotta disagree with you about Haley...I think he has a reputation as combative personality who can be a distraction...I don't think he is HC material regardless of who he is under...

I'm not saying he should be considered. I'm saying it's telling that he hasn't been. Exactly what it says about Tomlin, I have no idea. But IMO the sign of a good manager is that he develops smart young people who go on to do great things, either inside or outside of the organization. A guy who's been in the job as long as Tomlin should have produced more future HCs. Look at Marvin Lewis (Zimmer, Jay Gruden, Hue). Hell, even Jeff Fisher gave us Gregg Williams, Schwartz and Munchak.

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4 minutes ago, zftcg said:

I'm not saying he should be considered. I'm saying it's telling that he hasn't been. Exactly what it says about Tomlin, I have no idea. But IMO the sign of a good manager is that he develops smart young people who go on to do great things, either inside or outside of the organization. A guy who's been in the job as long as Tomlin should have produced more future HCs. Look at Marvin Lewis (Zimmer, Jay Gruden, Hue). Hell, even Jeff Fisher gave us Gregg Williams, Schwartz and Munchak.

I don't really disagree with that...just pointing out that BB who is by far the best HC in the business is not doing anything special in this area as well...think about it for a second...Patricia won his second title as a DC (and has 3 overall) last year and didn't get a job...that seems pretty odd...

Edited by Boston

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1 minute ago, Boston said:

I don't really disagree with that...just pointing out that BB who is by far the best HC in the business is not doing anything special in this area as well...think about it for a second...Patricia won his second title as a DC (and has 3 overall) last year and didn't get a job...that seems pretty odd...

I wonder if teams have been more skittish because they've been burned previously. Or maybe there was something about Patricia in particular (not looking like a "typical" HC?) But I remember after the Pats first SB run, there was a gold rush to hire their assistants (Weis, Crennel, Mangini, McDaniels). In recent years the only one I can think of is O'Brien.

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2 minutes ago, zftcg said:

I wonder if teams have been more skittish because they've been burned previously. Or maybe there was something about Patricia in particular (not looking like a "typical" HC?) But I remember after the Pats first SB run, there was a gold rush to hire their assistants (Weis, Crennel, Mangini, McDaniels). In recent years the only one I can think of is O'Brien.

And he went to Penn State first...

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1 hour ago, fred_1_15301 said:

2010 - Superbowl loss to the favored Packers.  Again, the game came down to the last drive when Ben's int sealed it.

Not to nitpick, but Ben's pick was in the first half.  The final drive ended when Wallace couldn't come down with a difficult catch on 4th down.

Edited by Steeler

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7 minutes ago, Steeler said:

Not to nitpick, but Ben's pick was in the first half.  The final drive ended when Wallace couldn't come down with a difficult catch on 4th down.

I must have blurred the ending of that game out of my mind.

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