Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Dungy was gone. Plus Dungy never coached offense and was a defensive coach his whole career before HC.
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Mike Tomlin...is it time to go? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter GROOT
- Start date
Dungy was gone. Plus Dungy never coached offense and was a defensive coach his whole career before HC.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
I think that's fair. I think he's an average head coach whose shortcomings in game-planning, adjusting, solidifying the defense, and imposing discipline have largely been hidden by having a HOF quarterback in place for his entire coaching career. That same HOF quarterback turned Bill Cowher from a great but perennially underachieving head coach into a Super Bowl winning head coach too. Funny how that happens.
The thing is, there are some (especially nationally) who place him into the upper echelon of coaches in the NFL because of the sustained success the Steelers have had, and while I don't think he's had nothing to do with it, I don't believe he's a huge part of the reason, either.
Maybe I'm wrong and that's unfair, but I've never seen anything to make me think otherwise. I think that if his first opportunity as a head coach had come in an organization that wasn't as good, he'd have been just another one of those coaches who was overmatched in the NFL, lost his job, and bounced around a bit hoping for another opportunity.
Can we please declare a moratorium on the "Coach X deserves zero credit for his team's performance" arguments? It really may be the single dumbest thing I've seen on this board (and that's saying something). My favorite has to be the 2002 Bucs. I've seen people argue that Dungy deserves no credit because they didn't win until he left, and ALSO that Gruden deserves no credit because Dungy built the team (and BTW, who assembled the team that Gruden's Bucs beat in that Super Bowl?) It's become an all-purpose excuse for when you hate a coach and want to hand-wave away his successes.
The fact is, coaches have a lot of input into everything that goes on on a team, and that's especially true if they've been in their jobs as long as Tomlin. So you think he doesn't deserve credit for the offense because of Ben? OK, then how do you explain Ben's progression from mistake-prone rookie to savvy vet? Oh, it was all the OCs? Fine, who do you think hired those OCs?
We could play this game all day. For far too many people on this board, it seems impossible to hold two thoughts about a coach in their heads at the same time. Andy Reid is an offensive genius who builds contenders everywhere he goes, and is also a terrible game manager. Tomlin has his flaws, but has run one of the most consistently successful franchises in the league for more than a decade. All of those things can be true at the same time.
The fact is, coaches have a lot of input into everything that goes on on a team, and that's especially true if they've been in their jobs as long as Tomlin. So you think he doesn't deserve credit for the offense because of Ben? OK, then how do you explain Ben's progression from mistake-prone rookie to savvy vet? Oh, it was all the OCs? Fine, who do you think hired those OCs?
We could play this game all day. For far too many people on this board, it seems impossible to hold two thoughts about a coach in their heads at the same time. Andy Reid is an offensive genius who builds contenders everywhere he goes, and is also a terrible game manager. Tomlin has his flaws, but has run one of the most consistently successful franchises in the league for more than a decade. All of those things can be true at the same time.
Short Corner
Footballguy
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Dungy did win a Super Bowl as a HC but Tom Moore installed the Indy offense and was the OC. Dungy never ran the offense and was always a defensive coach his whole career.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Tomlin has had a huge part in acquiring the talent and the planning and running of a team that has been among the league's best. Just saying it was due to having Ben Roethlisberger as QB is a major oversimplification. There is a hell of lot of preparation and coordination done by the head coach.
It is interesting that you consider Cowher a great head coach but not Tomlin.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Fair point, no doubt. Ben's progression as a QB - taking fewer hits, getting the ball out quicker etc - have come as a result of different OC hires who changed philosophies, and I'm glad Tomlin made the hires he did. That's great. Of course, Ben was a Super Bowl winning QB before Tomlin got there and a lesser QB wouldn't have performed at Ben's level no matter what coaches were brought in. Tomlin has benefited immensely from having him instead of having to draft and/or develop a guy, and I don't think he's a good enough coach that he would've been successful without such a great situation. Can't take that away from him, but it's all part of it.
By the time the defense went downhill (and it hasn't come back), Ben was good and experienced enough to keep the team in contention despite that.
I for one have never said Tomlin is a bad coach. He's an average coach in my opinion. But an average coach in a great situation can be really, really successful with wins and losses.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Tomlin is tough to judge because he took over a high caliber playoff ready team. Most first time HCs are taking over teams that are down. Not many get the chance to take over a talented team.
Short Corner
Footballguy
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
There are a lot of moving parts, and I don't say it was JUST because of having Ben. But, I think any coach who has a HOF QB for their entire tenure (so far) as a head coach has a lot of their flaws covered up by anyone who's looking only at wins and losses. This is and always will be a QB driven league, and that's a massive advantage for him.
He's had great coaching staffs, lots of continuity, and made strong hires into coordinator positions. Love that.
Regarding Cowher - I think Cowher's accomplishments dwarf what Tomlin has done. Why? Because Cowher was an exceptional coach with tons of success while rotating guys like Kordell, Tomczack, and Maddox into and out of the lineup. He lost a bunch of AFCC games because he was rolling inferior QBs out there against guys like Brady and Elway. If Cowher had a major fault, it's that he was too loyal and never addressed the QB situation until the end.... and once he did, he won a Super Bowl.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
True. The team was 8-8 and missed the playoffs under the "great" Bill Cowher and two years later the "average" Mike Tomlin won the Super Bowl. That was a decade ago and the Steelers have been among the best NFL teams in the league. The team he inherited has been gone a long time ago.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
I mean, as long as we're withholding credit for accomplishments that had far more to do with other people ...
Overall, I don't think we disagree that much. You think Tomlin is average, I think he's above average, mostly based on his overall management of the organization. But he's definitely a tier below the top guys in the league. Also, as I believe was discussed earlier in the thread, he's had the misfortune of coaching in a conference with the greatest coach/QB combo of all time, which has definitely limited his upside (his two SB appearances came in the year Brady was injured and the year the Pats were upset in the divisional round).
My main issue is with the people in this thread who seem determined to convince us all that he's Rich Kotite Jr.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Agreed. That's why I went on to say that it was his major fault as a coach. That he had that much success despite poor QB play was incredible.
And to be fair to the last year of his coaching career, the Steelers were 8-8 that year but had an expected win total of only 9. They had gone 10-6 the year before and won the Super Bowl as a Wild Card. It was Ben's first full season starting (after leading the team to the Super Bowl the year before), and he took a massive step back with over 20 INTs... In his last year in Pittsburgh, Cowher was a .500 coach with a QB who threw 18 TDs and 23 INT's because the team around him still had a ton of talent.... talent that became a Super Bowl winner again a couple years later.
The next year, Ben grew more, blew up, and he's been mostly great ever since. If you want to say his career took off because of Tomlin's leadership, we can just disagree.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
I believe that was his third season.
- Rookie year: Started Week 2, led team to AFCCG
- Year 2: Started all year, won SB
- Year 3: 8-8 (wasn't that also the year he had the motorcycle accident and missed a few games early in the season?)
Godsbrother
Footballguy
No I definitely would not say that but people around here make it sound like Tomlin inherited the 2001 Patriots.
I think the Steelers have been very fortunate to have had three excellent coaches over the last 50 seasons. They all have had their faults and sometimes Tomlin infuriates me but overall I think he is one of the better coaches in the league. If and when he begins losing I'll be calling for his head too. Right now I think that would be a dumb move for the Steelers.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
LOL, that's not entirely true. Ben had an AWFUL Super Bowel against the Seahawks, but he was amazing in the 3 road playoff games to get there, throwing 7 TDs and 1 INT in winning in Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and Denver. Great defense and running game on that team, too, and quite an accomplishment for a QB in his first year starting.I mean, as long as we're withholding credit for accomplishments that had far more to do with other people ...
Overall, I don't think we disagree that much. You think Tomlin is average, I think he's above average, mostly based on his overall management of the organization. But he's definitely a tier below the top guys in the league. Also, as I believe was discussed earlier in the thread, he's had the misfortune of coaching in a conference with the greatest coach/QB combo of all time, which has definitely limited his upside (his two SB appearances came in the year Brady was injured and the year the Pats were upset in the divisional round).
My main issue is with the people in this thread who seem determined to convince us all that he's Rich Kotite Jr.
And that's reasonable. There's a pretty fine line between being an average head coach and an above average one. I think an above average one is better at managing games and installing discipline, but that's just me. If he's still in Pittsburgh and he can keep the team relevant and competitive, if not contending once Ben is gone, I'll happily admit I'm wrong about him.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Yeah, I was referring to year two when it was his first year starting and won a Super Bowl under Cowher. Probably worded it poorly.
Ben didn't really get his act together until the whole rape allegation in Georgia. Rumors about him swirled until then, but by all accounts that changed him. I still remember him giving a press conference in the locker room shortly afterwards with his hair slicked back and I think some kind of weird red turtleneck... he looked like a sleazy porn star and me and my friends wondered what the heck was wrong with him lol.
My point was more that the team that Tomlin inherited was far better than the 8-8 record they had the year before. They still had the core together of the team that went 15-1 two years earlier and won the Super Bowl the year before. Tomlin didn't turn them into a contender at the time. There's no doubt they've maintained a good level of success since then, but the question I have is how much of that is due to Tomlin and how much of it is despite him. I think there's plenty of both.
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Short Corner
Footballguy
About the others (Tomlin, Dungy, Billick). The defensive guy with a great offense or offensive guy with a great defense shouldn't really be depended on to replicate on another squad as it is usually a result of the OC/DC or predecessor. Sure there are outliers like Belichik but you have to consider that he was on the other side of the ball when he played. With the way the game is evolving we will see more and more HC's that played QB/OL at some point.
Pipes
Footballguy
Dizzy
Footballguy
I'm seeing a lot of love/credit for Roethlisberger, but to me (a Steelers fan since 70's) he STILL makes, and has always made, too many terrible mistakes. His INT totals are too high and they always seem to come on the biggest stages - early, and deep in PIT territory.
This has always been there, and it continues today, which is why his "stats" are top of the heap, but his QB rating is just above middle of the pack... much like the Steelers record currently.
This has always been there, and it continues today, which is why his "stats" are top of the heap, but his QB rating is just above middle of the pack... much like the Steelers record currently.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
He's made plenty of mistakes in his career trying to do too much, no doubt about that. Also makes plenty of plays, too, and the Steelers have been more than a little fortunate to have him.
I don't want to turn this into a Roethlisberger thread, but his career INT% is about 2.7%. His first 3 years in the NFL were 3.7, 3.4, and 4.9, so his years since then have been much lower than that. That would put his INT% since then well inside the top 20 all-time, and probably closer to the 10 to 15th range. Considering how he's never been a guy who dinks and dunks his way down the field and takes a lot of downfield shots, that's not bad.
His career passer rating of 94.1 is 11th all-time. No single individual stat tells the whole story, but it's safe to say that Ben has been pretty damn good lol.
Dizzy
Footballguy
He's a great QB that makes too many, untimely mistakes, on the biggest stage.
Outside of that, he's incredibly unlikable (a finger-pointing "leader" with criminal past).
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Tomlin is so hard to judge as a coach. He is obviously a good head coach, but has any head coach this decade done less with more? Probably not.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
If Shazier doesn't have a career ending injury, this thread probably wouldn't have been refreshed. I'm not the biggest Tomlin supporter but at least regarding the last 2 losses, I put him far down the list of people to blame.
Wise Old Owl
Footballguy
In addition to McCarthy, the other comp is Andy Reid in Philly. In both of those cases, the fans were so sick of them that one dumpster fire of a season was enough to get them canned. While Tomlin has missed the playoffs a couple times, he's never had anything close to what McCarthy had this year or Reid had in his final season with Philly. I wonder what would happen if he did. Cowher certainly had a few bad seasons in Pittsburgh, but AFAIK he was never close to losing his job. I suspect it would have to be both a bad season and deteriorating personal relationships, a la McCarthy/Rodgers.
Steeler
Footballguy
The Steelers have had 3 coaches over the last 49 years! The Browns by contrast have had 3 coaches over the last 3 years 
Keeping coaches for a long time is the right way to go for continuity year after year, and Tomlin isn't going anywhere any time soon, so just chill and embrace the tradition fellow Steeler fans
Keeping coaches for a long time is the right way to go for continuity year after year, and Tomlin isn't going anywhere any time soon, so just chill and embrace the tradition fellow Steeler fans
Yenrub
Footballguy
Tough crowd
Last 10 seasons
2 Superbowls (1 win)
5 other playoff appearances (Lost to eventual Superbowl champ 2 of those 5)
0 losing seasons
Currently leading division
What are/were the expectations?
Honestly, I don't even bother engaging with the "He should be fired" crowd. First of all, as you say, he's not going anywhere. Second, I think the organizational philosophy where you stick with a coach even through down periods makes a lot of sense. It certainly paid off with Cowher. It's actually kind of odd that more franchises haven't sought to copy their approach.The Steelers have had 3 coaches over the last 49 years! The Browns by contrast have had 3 coaches over the last 3 years
Keeping coaches for a long time is the right way to go for continuity year after year, and Tomlin isn't going anywhere any time soon, so just chill and embrace the tradition fellow Steeler fans
(For the record, not a Steeler fan. But I admire the hell out of their organization and wish my Lions would do more to emulate them.)
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Cowher was never close to losing his job in Pittsburgh and was given a contract extension after two losing seasons and three years not making the playoffs. A LOT of fans were calling for his head, saying he was continually being outcoached and losing to inferior teams, especially in the playoffs (sound familiar?) but the Rooney's stuck with him.
There was a power struggle between GM Tom Donahue and Cowher in that time period and the Rooneys sided with Cowher and let go of Donahue (now with the Eagles).
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Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Since 2007, NFL road favorites by 10+ points are 60-11 straight up. Mike Tomlin has 4 of the 11 losses.
If Ben was able to get back into the game earlier than he did today and it was a coach's decision to keep him out because of the "flow of the game" or whatever BS excuse he used after the game today, it's just another example of sheer stupidity.
Look, you can talk about wins and losses since whenever and debate whether or not it's just a product of having a HOF QB. You can talk about his ability to spot good coordinators. You can talk about whether his success is because of him or despite him, or if there's really any substance behind all of his clichés and coach-speak. You can talk about why the Steelers haven't had a losing season. And you can talk about the value of stability. Mike Tomlin is just not a very good football coach on gamedays and he's proven it over and over and over again, and the same complaints people (including myself) have had about him since the beginning of this thread still apply today. His teams fall flat in big games a lot, they underperform against teams they shouldn't, and he consistently makes baffling decisions during the game. Supreme talent has found ways to bail them out sometimes, but now they've let the defensive talent level fall back to a point that coaching mistakes are amplified.
Maybe it's true that he'd be hard to replace, and I'm sure Tomlin would be picked up by someone else based on his reputation. But he's nothing more than an average football coach, and while it's not a sure-thing that they'd hire a better one, I really wish he'd at least be put on notice or the hot seat or SOMETHING that makes him feel some pressure from ownership.
If Ben was able to get back into the game earlier than he did today and it was a coach's decision to keep him out because of the "flow of the game" or whatever BS excuse he used after the game today, it's just another example of sheer stupidity.
Look, you can talk about wins and losses since whenever and debate whether or not it's just a product of having a HOF QB. You can talk about his ability to spot good coordinators. You can talk about whether his success is because of him or despite him, or if there's really any substance behind all of his clichés and coach-speak. You can talk about why the Steelers haven't had a losing season. And you can talk about the value of stability. Mike Tomlin is just not a very good football coach on gamedays and he's proven it over and over and over again, and the same complaints people (including myself) have had about him since the beginning of this thread still apply today. His teams fall flat in big games a lot, they underperform against teams they shouldn't, and he consistently makes baffling decisions during the game. Supreme talent has found ways to bail them out sometimes, but now they've let the defensive talent level fall back to a point that coaching mistakes are amplified.
Maybe it's true that he'd be hard to replace, and I'm sure Tomlin would be picked up by someone else based on his reputation. But he's nothing more than an average football coach, and while it's not a sure-thing that they'd hire a better one, I really wish he'd at least be put on notice or the hot seat or SOMETHING that makes him feel some pressure from ownership.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
I should add that I (and most of Pittsburgh probably) was sitting here screaming TIMEOUT at the screen when the Raiders got it down to 1st and goal at the 7 with just under 2 minutes left. Instead Tomlin held the timeout and allowed the Raiders to run 30 seconds off the clock and ultimately score with 25 seconds left. Think Ben could've used an extra 30 damn seconds at the end of the game?
Clock management... another one of Tomlin's weaknesses that has popped up many, many times over the years. I'm tired of watching it.
Clock management... another one of Tomlin's weaknesses that has popped up many, many times over the years. I'm tired of watching it.
Completely agree @Steelers4Life You simply can not make that decision today without some sort of recourse. That is what happens after a decade at the helm, he’s comfy enough to think he can try to skirt by with the Ravens a half game back. Does that mean he’s cool with 9-6-1 or 8-7-1? Because it sure seems like it. I can’t imagine how bad this Pats game is going to be. They’ve entered every single Pats contest under Tomlin whoafully underprepared with zero adjustments. I don’t expect the defense to be the Bears or the Cowboys... it’s hard to do that anymore with the modern NFLag football. Let’s not have freaking LB’ers cover Keenan Allen all game or leave the middle of the field open for Jared Cook and never make an adjustment. Butler needs to go and they need to figure out where their defense is to get it on par with 2018.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
I guess this is going to be bumped by the same people after every loss. Next up are the Patriots so I fully expect to see it bumped again next week.
Caesar
Footballguy
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Nah, I had never bumped it before. Forgot it even existed until then. But yesterday was another example of his stupidity on game day and I'm FAR from the only one who thinks that way. I thought the stat about losing as a 10+ point road favorite was a pretty telling one.
As for the Pats game, losing is one thing. Losing because no adjustments are ever made is something completely different. I'm turning the game off in the first quarter if they try the same stuff against Brady and expect different results.
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Franknbeans
Footballguy
I'll say this in support of Tomlin. Just when it looks the bleakest, he manages to pull a win out of his ###. I don't expect that in the upcoming weeks, though.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
As pointed out a few posts up, Tomlin and the Steelers have been very successful. This season has been a big disappointment so far but it is not over. There is way too much talent on that team for the season to be over.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Of course the thread is going to get bumped. The team has a lot of talent and they're still having horrible losses. There is a good chance they don't even make the playoffs this year. It shouldn't come down to a kicker against a team like Oakland that has already given up on the season.
The stat presented by Steelers4Life is pretty amazing. They just play down to their competition.
The stat presented by Steelers4Life is pretty amazing. They just play down to their competition.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Agree with this. Season is not over yet. Still 3 weeks to go and the team does have the talent to win out. Let's see what happens. 3 weeks ago I thought this team was going to get a bye.
Angry spiders
Footballguy
Does 8-7-1...get them in?
Dizzy
Footballguy
No. If they lose the Division, they are out (same for BAL).
Steelers fans, especially those in the greater Pittsburgh region, think the Steelers should win every game and the Super Bowl every year. Tough to accept when they turn out to be a very good team treading water in a sea of very good teams.
Look at the schedule, look at who the wins & losses. Even that "magical" winning streak... ATL, CIN, CLE, BAL, CAR, JAX... not exactly the measuring stick for Super Bowl contenders.
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The only difference between this thread and the Mike McCarthy version is that McCarthy is gone so that thread is moot.
Two good but not great coaches whomhave steadily lost their team over the past seasons as player aging leads to decline in on-field glory.
The real mystery is why there isn’t a smilar long thread about firing Marvin Lewis.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
I doubt it. The Oakland loss means that they will probably have to beat either the Patriots or the Saints (and then not choke against the Bengals).
DocHolliday
Footballguy
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