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****OFFICIAL 2020 OFF-SEASON DYNASTY TRADES****

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1 minute ago, ChuckLiddell said:

Williams = Lindsey?

 I think we’ve seen Lindsay’s career year. 

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54 minutes ago, tangfoot said:

 I think we’ve seen Lindsay’s career year. 

I think we saw Williams best season in 2016.

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5 hours ago, menobrown said:

I think we saw Williams best season in 2016.

And we haven't seen Tyrell's? I'd rather have Funchess than Tyrell Williams. Both are more athlete than WR, but Funchess is in a better spot and younger.

Edited by jtd13
Oops, thought I was quoting tangfoot and somehow missed your reply but still quoted it.

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18 minutes ago, ffmail4me said:

Lindsay continues to be criminally under valued around here....

I like Lindsay a lot, but I think 2018 was an exception, not the rule for him. He still has value but the time is right to sell if you can get some monster value for him. Him and Aaron Jones, IMO, are great sells right now. 

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Lindsay is the best player in that deal but Fuller is very solid so him plus the 1.12 isn’t to bad. The other stuff i don’t care abt to much, guess I’d probably rather have funchess and hope Luck gets a lot out of him.

Roster would matter for me, could go either side

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2 minutes ago, Concept Coop said:

12 Tm PPR - QRRWWTFF

1st, 3rd, 4th (all late 2020), J. Samuels

for

Philip Lindsay 

I love Lindsay but that's a nice return 

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15 hours ago, ghostguy123 said:

On second thought nevermind.  I can see both sides and the value is quite a bit closer than I thought at first glance.  Probably even and obviously in your favor sooner rather than later.  

Based on what you said the other guy had, sounds like he shoulda been the one rebuilding, not dealing for kelce and brady

The unknown context here is the guy I made this trade with has an incredible receiving core.  We start 3 WR's and an additional 2 flexes.  

His likely starting receivers/flex candidates

Hopkins, Thielen, Juju, Robert Woods, Corey Davis, Sterling Shepard.  Adding the huge upgrade with Kelce and moderate upgrade with Howard (really) leaves his likely lineup as

QB/SF: Wilson, Goff

RB: James White, Howard

WR: Hopkins, Thielen, Juju

TE: Kelce

Flex: Robert Woods

Flex: Corey Davis or Sterling Shepard.

RB still a weakness but he eliminated the barren hole at TE for the price of a guy in Moore who absent a meteoric rise wasn't getting in the lineup regularly except for maybe at Flex 2.

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3 hours ago, Dr. Dan said:

I like Lindsay a lot, but I think 2018 was an exception, not the rule for him. He still has value but the time is right to sell if you can get some monster value for him. Him and Aaron Jones, IMO, are great sells right now. 

Lindsay only got 12 carries and 3 targets a game. He looked great and was extremely productive. Why are we expecting a sizable regression?  What incentive do the Broncos have to reduce his touches? 

I don’t get the hesitation with Lindsay. He doesn’t have the upside of some of his peers, as he’ll likely never be a 20 touch guy. But nothing about his season looked fluky to me. The kid can absolutely play and there is still upside in the passing game.

I thought it was just the Royce fans for a while, but it seems the majority are down on Lindsay.

Edit: And I totally get not wanting to invest in a player with limited upside; I get why people might not be high on him. I just don’t get why we would see 2018 as a fluke.

Edited by Concept Coop
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3 hours ago, Dr. Dan said:

I like Lindsay a lot, but I think 2018 was an exception, not the rule for him. He still has value but the time is right to sell if you can get some monster value for him. Him and Aaron Jones, IMO, are great sells right now. 

You have always been a pretty staunch supporter of A. Jones if I recall.  Why the change of heart?  Just curious - I own him and dont disagree with you - the situation makes me nervous but I am surprised to see you express this opinion.  Wondewring what transpired to make you feel this way.  Change of coaching staffs would seem on the surface to be positive or neutral for him, not negative.

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1 hour ago, Concept Coop said:

Lindsay only got 12 carries and 3 targets a game. He looked great and was extremely productive. Why are we expecting a sizable regression?  What incentive do the Broncos have to reduce his touches? 

I don’t get the hesitation with Lindsay. He doesn’t have the upside of some of his peers, as he’ll likely never be a 20 touch guy. But nothing about his season looked fluky to me. The kid can absolutely play and there is still upside in the passing game.

I thought it was just the Royce fans for a while, but it seems the majority are down on Lindsay.

Edit: And I totally get not wanting to invest in a player with limited upside; I get why people might not be high on him. I just don’t get why we would see 2018 as a fluke.

Full disclosure, I was down on Cohen last year and he proved me wrong, but in his stats lies where my reservations for Lindsay are. 

I think we've seen Lindsay's ceiling already. Also, I see Lindsay's projected production similar to how Cohen produced- very erratically. Is he someone you want as your RB1? no. RB2? I wouldnt. If he is a flex option I think he is very valuable. Right now people value him as an every week RB2, and that's where I dislike him. 

Many years ago I was bitten bad by Chad Johnsons streaky games. He seemed like a high end WR2, but when you looked at his games he either single handedly won you your week or he produced 4/55. Probably better as a flex player. My concern is that Lindsay ends up down this same path

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1 hour ago, ChuckLiddell said:

You have always been a pretty staunch supporter of A. Jones if I recall.  Why the change of heart?  Just curious - I own him and dont disagree with you - the situation makes me nervous but I am surprised to see you express this opinion.  Wondewring what transpired to make you feel this way.  Change of coaching staffs would seem on the surface to be positive or neutral for him, not negative.

It's become more and more clear to me that Jones is very talented and one of top 50% RBs in the league. However I dont think he is made to be a great fantasy RB for the long term. 

I'm not sure he is a workhorse guy. Right now his stock is pretty high yet, and this is a make or break year for him. If he gets hurt a 3rd year in a row or fails to take the reigns in that offense, his stock should fall considerably. 

Also, there is the injury side of things. two minor-ish knee injuries in back to back seasons. That isn't a good sign. One more and we can officially label him injury prone. 

I do think that GB could take a RB round 2 or 3. That would torpedo Jones' value. Gute has said he loves Jones and wants him on the field as much as possible, but he hasnt stayed healthy. Williams is JAG. They dont really have anyone after those 2. I dlnt expect them to take a RB early, as they have S, OL, LB, WR, and TE needs, but I wouldnt be surprised. Keep in mind, Williams and Jones are TTs guys, not Gute's. probably :tinfoilhat: but in my case I made him available and received a really good offer for him. I cant fault someone for holding him.I just look at risk/reward, and think if I can get a good price why not; I think there is potential that this is his sell high point due to RBBC/draft/injury concerns. Concerns are adding up... one is bound to strike 

Edited by Dr. Dan

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30 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

 

I think we've seen Lindsay's ceiling already.

Hard for me to agree to this line of thinking when he was surrounded by a pitiful supporting cast last year.  I believe Denver made a huge hire with Mularkey who I think will do miracles with their OL, like the Scangarello OC hire due to Kyle/Mike Shanahan coaching tree with deep roots in RB success, feel like Flacco is at least an upgrade over Keenum, they might take a TE early and if Sanders is healthy the two rookie WR's from last year should be better. In short everything around him looks better and you are the second person to say he reached his zenith or will never have a year like that again.  I can't get my head around that. I don't think he has a lot more upside over what he was last year,  just hard for me to think it was the best we've seen.

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1 minute ago, menobrown said:

Hard for me to agree to this line of thinking when he was surrounded by a pitiful supporting cast last year.  I believe Denver made a huge hire with Mularkey who I think will do miracles with their OL, like the Scangarello OC hire due to Kyle/Mike Shanahan coaching tree with deep roots in RB success, feel like Flacco is at least an upgrade over Keenum, they might take a TE early and if Sanders is healthy the two rookie WR's from last year should be better. In short everything around him looks better and you are the second person to say he reached his zenith or will never have a year like that again.  I can't get my head around that. I don't think he has a lot more upside over what he was last year,  just hard for me to think it was the best we've seen.

Do you think he pushes Freeman out? or that he just does more with what he is given? or something else?(not trying to out words in your mouth)

Edited by Dr. Dan

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Just now, Dr. Dan said:

Do you think he pushes Freeman out? Pr that he just does more with what he is given? or something else?(not trying to out words in your mouth)

I think the coaching staff would like to see Freeman take on more of a role actually but I have a very low opinion of him and don't think he's up to it. I think Freeman is Zac Stacy part 2, been saying that since pre-draft process last year. A spare. Saying that I took Freeman in several redrafts last year because when you are the guy at RB you can produce fantasy points, even Zac Stacy as an example gave some production. I was a lot more invested in Freeman then Lindsay last year and saying that, that I spent about every week pulling for Freeman and against Lindsay, I felt it was not close with respect to Lindsay being night and day better and that I watched their games all year last year knowing I blew it, that I invested in the wrong guy due to draft pedigree and size.

I think Lindsay was heavily under utilized in the passing game and has a ton of statistical growth as a receiver which will more than make up for any possible dip in rushing efficiency. And really no reason to expect a dip in efficiency other he was just so efficient at it but when everything around you is better not sure it's so valid to expect him to dip but if we want to play the regression to the mean game I think what he can contribute as a receiver can make up for it and then some.

You bring up Cohen in an earlier post and both are small but really both were got their production in different ways. I'm fond Cohen but if Cohen produced rushing numbers like Lindsay and Lindsay produced receiving numbers like Cohen we'd be talking about 21+PPG studs.  I'm not sure Cohen will grow much as a runner but I do think Lindsay has a lot of growth potential in the receiving game, I'd be pretty surprised if Cohen ever ran for 1,000 yards, I'd not be surprised if Lindsay evolved into a 70 catch RB. That's the something else.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, deadlyrange0321 said:

12 team PPR 1QB/1RB/2WR/1TE/2Flex

Team A trades:

Dalvin Cook

 

Team B trades:

Aaron Jones 

1.08

Dalvin

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3 hours ago, Concept Coop said:

12 Tm PPR - QRRWWTFF

1st, 3rd, 4th (all late 2020), J. Samuels

for

Philip Lindsay 

I may have just went on a long spiel about we've not seen the best of Lindsday but this seems super stout for him, would take the other side easily.

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16 minutes ago, menobrown said:

I may have just went on a long spiel about we've not seen the best of Lindsday but this seems super stout for him, would take the other side easily.

The “late” is firm. League winner with one of those crazy rosters - starting Barkley, Zeke, Kamara, and Mixon in the RB/flex spots, for example. 

Is the 1.11 or 1.12 a year from now and Samuels really too much for Lindsay? 

Perhaps I’m low on Samuels, as I was stoked to get Lindsay for this.

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32 minutes ago, menobrown said:

I think the coaching staff would like to see Freeman take on more of a role actually but I have a very low opinion of him and don't think he's up to it. I think Freeman is Zac Stacy part 2, been saying that since pre-draft process last year. A spare. Saying that I took Freeman in several redrafts last year because when you are the guy at RB you can produce fantasy points, even Zac Stacy as an example gave some production. I was a lot more invested in Freeman then Lindsay last year and saying that, that I spent about every week pulling for Freeman and against Lindsay, I felt it was not close with respect to Lindsay being night and day better and that I watched their games all year last year knowing I blew it, that I invested in the wrong guy due to draft pedigree and size.

I think Lindsay was heavily under utilized in the passing game and has a ton of statistical growth as a receiver which will more than make up for any possible dip in rushing efficiency. And really no reason to expect a dip in efficiency other he was just so efficient at it but when everything around you is better not sure it's so valid to expect him to dip but if we want to play the regression to the mean game I think what he can contribute as a receiver can make up for it and then some.

You bring up Cohen in an earlier post and both are small but really both were got their production in different ways. I'm fond Cohen but if Cohen produced rushing numbers like Lindsay and Lindsay produced receiving numbers like Cohen we'd be talking about 21+PPG studs.  I'm not sure Cohen will grow much as a runner but I do think Lindsay has a lot of growth potential in the receiving game, I'd be pretty surprised if Cohen ever ran for 1,000 yards, I'd not be surprised if Lindsay evolved into a 70 catch RB. That's the something else.

 

 

 

Thanks for this. Nice to see where you are coming from and it's hard to argue against a lot of what you said. 

I find myself down on several smaller RBs right now (Cohen, Lindsay, A Jones), so it's very possible it's just a bias on my part. Also, Jones and Lindsay are in new systems, which concerns me. 

I agree, Lindsay can grow in the passing game and that's one area I liked about him before the season last year. 

I could very well be dead wrong on these guys, and chances are I am. In Lindsay's case it comes down to if you think Freeman has what it takes or not. 

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2 minutes ago, Concept Coop said:

The “late” is firm. League winner with one of those crazy rosters - starting Barkley, Zeke, Kamara, and Mixon in the RB/flex spots, for example. 

Is the 1.11 or 1.12 a year from now and Samuels really too much for Lindsay? 

Perhaps I’m low on Samuels, as I was stoked to get Lindsay for this.

 

Even with the late firm I think the high end talent in the 2020 draft will push solid talent to back end of round one but an essential pick 12 type guarantee does take a lot of the luster of that pick and makes this more in-line, a reasonable trade.

 

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14 minutes ago, Concept Coop said:

The “late” is firm. League winner with one of those crazy rosters - starting Barkley, Zeke, Kamara, and Mixon in the RB/flex spots, for example. 

Is the 1.11 or 1.12 a year from now and Samuels really too much for Lindsay? 

Perhaps I’m low on Samuels, as I was stoked to get Lindsay for this.

2020 could have some major talent. 1.11/1.12 could be equal to 1.5 this year. 

That said, and I know I just spoke about how much I would sell Lindsay, trading a low 1st isnt bad, especially if you have all of those rbs... this is a pretty low risk move. I cant say I dislike this trade. Samuels doesnt factor in for me

1.11 or 1.12 could be a really good player in a pretty good draft though... if this was 2019 I'd love the Lindsay side. 

13 minutes ago, Concept Coop said:

Speaking of Samuels, this was just accepted (standard 12 tm PPR):

Samuels, 1st (2020 late)

for

Hunt

I'd say this is in favor of the 1st IMO. Hunt, IMO, doesnt stand to be a fantasy factor until 2021 unless he is traded (or chubb hurt).. he is a RFA next year, so CLE can sign him cheap. another team can try and grab him I guess but that is basically a trade.

 

ETA: so this guy basically traded Lindsay for Hunt and some late 2020 dart throws. 

Edited by Dr. Dan

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7 minutes ago, Poppa said:

14-team dynasty ppr

Team A gives Phillip Lindsay

Team B gives Dante Pettis

 

Some people love Pettis here, and maybe those people will be right, but I got Lindsay in this deal by another full Pettis.

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35 minutes ago, Concept Coop said:

Speaking of Samuels, this was just accepted (standard 12 tm PPR):

Samuels, 1st (2020 late)

for

Hunt

I assume this Jaylen Samuels with the recent talk of him.  I think I prefer that side rather than the Hunt side.  I think he's worth that late 1st range so adding in Samuels pushes it over the edge for me, but slightly. 

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2 hours ago, Dr. Dan said:

Full disclosure, I was down on Cohen last year and he proved me wrong, but in his stats lies where my reservations for Lindsay are. 

I think we've seen Lindsay's ceiling already. Also, I see Lindsay's projected production similar to how Cohen produced- very erratically. Is he someone you want as your RB1? no. RB2? I wouldnt. If he is a flex option I think he is very valuable. Right now people value him as an every week RB2, and that's where I dislike him. 

Many years ago I was bitten bad by Chad Johnsons streaky games. He seemed like a high end WR2, but when you looked at his games he either single handedly won you your week or he produced 4/55. Probably better as a flex player. My concern is that Lindsay ends up down this same path

Consistency is incredibly inconsistent.

I remember that Chad Johnson year.  I was one of the people pushing the hardest that he was a bad pick that year because most people had him on the bench for his big games, and was railing against his consitency that season.

The thing is, the year prior to that for Chad Johnson the biggest complaint was that he was boringly consistent and his good end of year stats came from a bunch of boring 7-86 type games and he never put up those huge games that would win you the game on their own.

Lindsay is a totally different type of RB than Cohen so I don't see the relation there anyway.

Sure Lindsay may wash out but at the prices we're talking about here he's more than worth the shot.  Take people's size concerns away and he's a rookie RB with a 3-down skillset that just put up 1300 yards with double digit TDs at a strong YPC and wildly outplayed the only competition on his team.  Who else can we say even half of those things about at these kind of prices?

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41 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

2020 could have some major talent. 1.11/1.12 could be equal to 1.5 this year. 

 

47 minutes ago, menobrown said:

Even with the late firm I think the high end talent in the 2020 draft will push solid talent to back end of round one but an essential pick 12 type guarantee does take a lot of the luster of that pick and makes this more in-line, a reasonable trade.

I went back and looked at the rookie drafts in one of my leagues, going back to 2012. It looks like the best you can reasonably expect at 11 or 12 is 3rd round RBs, 2nd round WRs and late 1st round TEs. Guys like Juju, E. Engram, D. Foreman, Njoku, Sutton, A. Miller, D. Adams, T. Mason, D. Funchess, M. Lee, etc.

Not to argue the trades, but your comments prompted me to take a look, and I thought it was worth sharing my findings. 

And I agree, Dan. The names above would be going in the middle of the 1st round this year, rather than the the 10-14 range they went in their own draft classes. 

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1 hour ago, Dr. Dan said:

2020 could have some major talent. 1.11/1.12 could be equal to 1.5 this year.

Odd that you say this.  Everything I have been reading is that the top-end talent in 2020 is worlds better than this year (2-4 guys max), but that the depth of talent this year far outstrips what is expected next year, going well into the 2nd round with solid choices.

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32 minutes ago, tangfoot said:

Odd that you say this.  Everything I have been reading is that the top-end talent in 2020 is worlds better than this year (2-4 guys max), but that the depth of talent this year far outstrips what is expected next year, going well into the 2nd round with solid choices.

Yes, depth this year at wr seems pretty solid. The top of next year dwarfs 2019, but the depth at rb is amazing. at least 6 1st round rookie picks. WR is very talented as well. Round 2 might not be as deep in 2020 for sure

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42 minutes ago, tangfoot said:

Odd that you say this.  Everything I have been reading is that the top-end talent in 2020 is worlds better than this year (2-4 guys max), but that the depth of talent this year far outstrips what is expected next year, going well into the 2nd round with solid choices.

It's a useless comparison at this point because depth doesn't emerge until much closer to the draft.  The majority of the guys that are thought of as good depth this year weren't even on people's radars at this point last year.  We have no idea how many of those guys will emerge similarly for next year.

Additionally, we haven't had guys killed off by surprisingly poor draft stock or bad landing spots yet (think John Kelly last year).

This is pretty much the exact perfect timing for depth to appear at its maximum for the 2019 class, and the time where depth will appear at its minimum for 2020.

If anything I would expect the depth next year to be even better, simply because there are so many studs we aren't even going to have to get into the depth pieces until much later.

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2 hours ago, Concept Coop said:

The “late” is firm. League winner with one of those crazy rosters - starting Barkley, Zeke, Kamara, and Mixon in the RB/flex spots, for example. 

Is the 1.11 or 1.12 a year from now and Samuels really too much for Lindsay? 

Perhaps I’m low on Samuels, as I was stoked to get Lindsay for this.

Fully agree with you. 

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Two leagues, two ebron trades, one for 2.02 one for 2.03. Cashing out on what I think was his best season. I don’t think he’ll disappear, but I’ll take the 2.02 at this point. Tried to include him in some player deals but didn’t have any luck. 

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1 minute ago, Snorkelson said:

Two leagues, two ebron trades, one for 2.02 one for 2.03. Cashing out on what I think was his best season. I don’t think he’ll disappear, but I’ll take the 2.02 at this point. Tried to include him in some player deals but didn’t have any luck. 

I expect regression but that still seems cheap for Ebron to me. I'll take the Ebron sides

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FFPC

Mike Williams for 1.07

I received  Williams. Although I haven’t studied the rookie draft much (I typically wait until after nfl draft) I was not getting too excited for the draft pick.  Good chance it ends up fairly even trade, I have more confidence in Williams than selecting a player at 1.07  

thoughts?

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3 minutes ago, Snorkelson said:

Two leagues, two ebron trades, one for 2.02 one for 2.03. Cashing out on what I think was his best season. I don’t think he’ll disappear, but I’ll take the 2.02 at this point. Tried to include him in some player deals but didn’t have any luck. 

We've seen TEs not return to form after hip surgery.   Ebron is 3 years younger, healthier, and more talented than Doyle.  I think this is a very fair price for him.

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Just now, Aunt Jemima said:

I expect regression but that still seems cheap for Ebron to me. I'll take the Ebron sides

That’s fair but no one was paying a late 1st or a reasonable player, even when they had a need at te. If you want to cash out this is probably what you can expect. 

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6 minutes ago, Shaunz33 said:

FFPC

Mike Williams for 1.07

I received  Williams. Although I haven’t studied the rookie draft much (I typically wait until after nfl draft) I was not getting too excited for the draft pick.  Good chance it ends up fairly even trade, I have more confidence in Williams than selecting a player at 1.07  

thoughts?

I like it for you. I think Williams showed a lot last season, and I'm excited to see what he can do with more targets. 

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4 hours ago, Concept Coop said:

I like it for you. I think Williams showed a lot last season, and I'm excited to see what he can do with more targets. 

Agreed

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3 minutes ago, Aunt Jemima said:

FFPC

Evan Engram and 1.2

for

1.1, 1.4

Seems like a fair market trade but I'd take the 1.1 and 1.4.

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37 minutes ago, menobrown said:

Seems like a fair market trade but I'd take the 1.1 and 1.4.

With all due respect, I like the Engram side, without much hesitation.  I just can't differentiate much among the 1st, 3rd and 4th picks this year, but would take Engram above any of them in the FFPC. 

Edited by hunter1
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59 minutes ago, Aunt Jemima said:

FFPC

Evan Engram and 1.2

for

1.1, 1.4

I have Engram equal to the 1.04 in rookie picks for FFPC, so this is essentially 1.02 and Engram (1.04) for 1.01 and 1.04 to me.  Seems rather equal especially if the team giving up Engram has a TE already and the new Engram owner fills that hole.  I'd probably keep Engram as I think his value will grow considering he came off an injured season, and I should easily be able to get my boy AJ Brown at 1.02.  

Probably makes sense for both teams 

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17 minutes ago, hunter1 said:

With all due respect, I like the Engram side, without much hesitation.  I just can't differentiate much among the 1st, 3rd and 4th picks this year, but would take Engram above any of them in the FFPC. 

I think the trade is close and perhaps when it's all said and done no difference will exist between those picks. I just put a higher value on 1.1 right now in case separation occurs so I can take advantage of it.  I would rather take that side and that risk right now because I don't see a big difference between say pick 4 and Engram. So for me I'd take the 4 over Engram risk if you will if that risk meant I held 1 over 2 so I was in the one in position to take advantage of any one single player gaining separation.

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Zyphros said:

I have Engram equal to the 1.04 in rookie picks for FFPC, so this is essentially 1.02 and Engram (1.04) for 1.01 and 1.04 to me.  Seems rather equal especially if the team giving up Engram has a TE already and the new Engram owner fills that hole.  I'd probably keep Engram as I think his value will grow considering he came off an injured season, and I should easily be able to get my boy AJ Brown at 1.02.  

Probably makes sense for both teams 

yeah I don't know yet if it makes sense or not, I'm the one that sold Engram and then later Mike Williams. This is an Orphan I bought this year, I have very little on my current roster other than Luck and Watson who nobody seems to want and now I have 1.1, 1.3, 1.4, 1.6, 2.1, 2.2 three 2020 1sts and three 2020 2nds so this is kind of a big work in progress

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