DallasDMac
Footballguy
Uhm, so you wanna know if he means Charles at pick #66 then?
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***OFFICIAL*** Washington Commanders Thread (13 Viewers)
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Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
Interested in what players everyone thinks the Skins picks up late? Anyone got players the think are a good fit in round 4-7.
A big WR - Van Jefferson, Isaiah Hodgins, Bryan Edwards
A 3rd string project QB - James Morgan
A physical CB - Lamar Jackson
OL depth - Justin Herron, Sean Pollard
A big WR - Van Jefferson, Isaiah Hodgins, Bryan Edwards
A 3rd string project QB - James Morgan
A physical CB - Lamar Jackson
OL depth - Justin Herron, Sean Pollard
BoltBacker
Footballguy
It was either an internet problem or a site problem. The page just kept trying to load when I pressed "Submit Reply".
DallasDMac
Footballguy
BoltBacker
Footballguy
I think Jefferson gets mocked too early for my taste(seen him mocked in 2nd round in some places), but I like where both Edwards and Hodgins are going. Another guy I like where is projected going is Quartney Davis who isn't as fast as Jefferson but many think will be available several rounds later even though his skill set isn't several rounds worse.
I really like Morgan but the trouble is all the guys you would have to pass up where he's projected to go. Based on the picks they currently have they would have to use pick #162(maybe even pick #142) to be sure to get him and there are just too many players that can play at least a rotational role around that area. Hodgins, Proche at WR. Moss, Asiasi, Hopkins, O'Grady, Okwuegbunam at TE are mocked all over the place but often one of them is available where Morgan is being taken. Any of those guys would likely see the field and could make a big impact right away. I also think WAS is in a weird "no-mans-land" at the QB position where you have to take a guy that will likely be a starter when healthy(Tua) or a guy so late that you can slip him on the practice squad because you drafted him so late(Luton, Mcdonald, Huntley) because Haskins/Allen seem so entrenched. I'm always for having a QB developing on the practice squad. A good team can afford to use a pick like #161 on a 3rd string project at QB but WAS it just too far from a good team to afford that luxury.
Lamar Jackson seems to have all the physical tools to excel at the NFL level but depending on who you listen to he may not mentally be ready to make that jump. Generally I like CB's with his size because WAS also has a need at FS so if he washed out at CB he has a fall back position to make a switch. It's tough to say how interested I'd be because I've seen him mocked at such a wide array of places. I'd take him in a heartbeat at #216 but at #162 it would depend on who else was left on the board. Those types of guys usually have one franchise that falls in love with his size and drafts him earlier than he deserves to go imo. Not sure if anyone remembers Stanley Jean-Baptiste but I guess I worry Lamar Jackson might follow that path.
I like both Herron and Pollard(along with Hanson) because of their positional versatility because they will likely need to develop backing up more than one position to make the team. The bigger question may be deciding whether you take guys like that who can probably make the roster because they can step in year one and contribute or do you take a guy like Terence Steele who shouldn't be on an NFL field in 2020 but probably has the best potential as a starting LT if he develops with NFL coaching.
The Redskins simply need more picks. There are rumors some GM's are looking to shed 2020 picks because they don't feel as prepared for this draft as they normally would be because of Covid so maybe WAS can use that in their favor. If WAS leaves the draft with Williams on the roster they should just settle in because I doubt they ever have a chance to get a day 2 pick for him again(unless a contender gets a major injury unexpectedly).
Deamon
Footballguy
I actually would find it hard to believe if EITHER of those teams make a significant trade for the #2 pick. It's such a small amount to move up to give that much up. If Detroit doesn't think Washington is totally in love with Chase, why would they throw a bunch of picks to move one pick to get him? I think the best shot at Wash moving down is a team going for Tua, but that seems to be losing a bit of steam.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
But it's not about the number of picks you are moving up, it's about the player and the position of need. For instance if you are a team looking for a pass rusher(as both DET and NYG are) who do you think the second best pass rusher is in this draft? That's the delta that matters, not the number of spots you have to move up to get that player.
And maybe it's not just those two teams. JAX is kind of in a similar situation with Ngakoue as the Redskins are with Williams. They are also a team with 15 draft picks and a HC on the hot seat that may never see the fruits of all those draft picks actually developing into NFL starting caliber players. If they want to replace him with a cheaper player maybe they would be willing to part with Ngakoue, #9, #20. If I were WAS I jump on that even if the pick trade chart says they are getting shafted.
Deamon
Footballguy
I was mainly referencing that you just don't see move ups ONE spot in drafts. The Trubisky one was an outlier and was weird enough, but was seemingly as they thought another team would trade up to 2 and take him. The amount Detroit would give up to 1 spot would not be that much. And then who do the Skins take at 3? Is there someone they're that excited about at 3? I doubt they can get anyone at 3 that is as high on their board as Young, so that extra pick doesn't seem worth it. The same boat (although a bit more sense) for the Giants. Wash is taking a major step back to pick 3rd or 4th, and the return is unlikely to be that worth it. I guess Jax could be an option but I think they need all th picks they can get, and I think they'll use a lot of their picks to move up into the 2nd round or even improve their 2nd first round pick.
I'd be absolutely stunned if someone traded up to pick 2 for Chase Young.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
And I was saying that it's pretty odd that Chase Young is ranked as the #1 most talented player on the entire draft board by most people and almost nobody thinks the Redskins(who have a new coaching staff so at least a few years to develop rookies) have any interest in trading down out of that spot and acquiring much needed young assets all across their roster.
You think JAX needs all the picks they can get with FIFTEEN of them? But you don't think WAS, who won HALF as many games as JAX mind you, needs more than ONE PICK in the top 65 picks of the draft?
Who would they take at pick #3? That's easy, Tua. Although they desperately need Okudah. And they desperately need Simmons. And a difference maker at WR. And a starting caliber LT to replace Williams. They need everything, which is why imo they should be motivated to trade back at all costs. I'd take Tua at pick #3 as stated earlier in the thread because there really is no more valuable asset in the NFL like a pro-bowl QB on a rookie contract. But I would listen to offers to move down first and foremost.
The odd part to me is nobody seems to think that anyone is interested in trading up to take the highest ranked player on everyone's draft board. Rivera has the advantage of time and patience to build a roster with young players. A lot of these coaches that are supposed to be trading down have neither as they would be taking developmental players to play for some other coach one day. If Chase Young truly is a game changer than the coaches on the hot seat should be the ones motivated to save their jobs with a guy like that. Rivera will be the coach in 2021 no matter what his record is in 2020.
Deamon
Footballguy
Because trade ups into the top 3 for defensive players are extremely rare (In fact I can't even recall any recent examples of it) The cost is too high. People automatically assume that if a team wants to trade down they can. Does Wash want to trade down to pick 3 and pick up an extra few 2nd round picks?! Sure they do! Pick 3 is not going to give that up.
And you say "that's easy, Tua". If Washington loves Tua enough to take him at 3rd overall in the draft, then they shouldn't even bat an eye and they should be taking Tua at #2. There is a lot of 'top player in the drafts' that don't get taken as the top pick, or even top 2 picks. If someone falls in love with a QB, they can trade to a non qb-needy team's spot. There aren't many teams that aren't in need of a DL, where as most NFL teams are not in need of a QB.
You need to realize that it's extremely unlikely that any team wants to move up to #2 for Young and give up enough for the Skins to be content with the dropoff between Young and the next best DL. Again, if they are enamored enough with Tua that you think he would be a slam dunk pick for them at 3, then they shouldn't even question taking him at #2.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Why would they be interested in the "next best DL"? They have drafted DL with a first round pick for the past three drafts in a row. The year before those three years they drafted Matt Ionnidis and just extended him for 3yr/$22mil.
If Young is "the best player in the draft" to most people and most teams that have a desperate need for a DLman won't trade a 2nd rounder or two to take the best player in the draft than I just think Chase Young isn't all that special.
Actually, I think the slam dunk move would be to trade down from 3. But given that DET and NYG are very unlikely to draft Tua.... I would take Tua at 3. Why does it have to be a slam dunk pick? I don't think Chase Young is a slam dunk pick at #2 for a team that just spent THREE FIRST ROUNDERS I A ROW on the DL and extended Ionnidis. That's pretty much my point. Since there isn't a slam dunk pick at #2 they should just trade down.... UNLESS NOBODY IS WILLING TO TRADE UP FOR "THE BEST PLAYER IN THE DRAFT". So why are they so enamored with a guy nobody is willing to trade up for?
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
With Trent I could see something on day 2 of the draft if teams miss out on a OT in round 1. A great example would be TB. If they miss on the top 4 OTs, my guess is they'd give up #45. And they likely will miss unless they trade up. They need to protect Brady or he'll be done in 4 games. Or maybe SEA would give up 59 or 64. I'm surprised CLE hasn't jumped in the game already though. They can get a great WR at pick 10, and only give up maybe #74 an #115 for Trent. Trent has more value than whatever CLE gets with those picks.
With the #2 pick, I think COVID screwed up any trade ups to get Tua or Hebert. Teams haven't been able to examine Tua. Teams haven't been able to see if they can fix Hebert's accuracy and touch. Most years I'd say they'd be getting offers for that pick. But it's a lot to give up to move to #2 for a QB you couldn't study as much as usual.
If there was a trade for pick #2, I think it would come from DET. They move up for Young and WAS get Okudah or Simmons. The price to move up would have to be minimal or DET wouldn't do it. Maybe #67 and #109. DET has several extra mid round picks
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Deamon
Footballguy
You're going in circles here and I don't know what you're failing to understand. That's not how it works. Well if you think you would want the Skins to take Tua at 3, then I guess you want to take him at 2 then, and that's the pick. So that's your choice for pick 2.
I'm not sure if you follow the draft closely usually (Not meaning to be a dig, just seems like maybe you're unfamiliar with how these things go), but quite often the 'best player in the draft' does not go #1. No teams trade into the top 3 for a defensive player because it is an extremely expensive move, and one you only do if it's for a Franchise QB you're trying to build your team around for 10+ years. I'm sure Detroit is enamored with him enough to want to trade up but it isn't worth what Washington is going to need for him. Washington trading back means they're not in love with Tua (or else they'd take him at 2), so they would need a LOT to move down from Young to (insert next best player on their board, clearly not a QB).
Can spin your wheels all you want on this but Young is amazing, and Washington is going to draft him, or try to trade back but a team at 3 or 4 isn't going to give up the farm to move up for a defensive player.
Deamon
Footballguy
I think that's one of those weird situations that both teams would think is a bad deal and not do. Detroit wouldn't give up a 3rd and 4th to move up one spot. Washington also would want more than a 3rd and 4th to drop in talent from Young to Simmons.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Who has ever said a team would "give up the farm"? It certainly wasn't me.Deamon said:
If Young truly was "amazing" I would think teams would be interested in acquiring him. I do follow the draft and generally speaking, "amazing" players are in demand.
And you say that I am the one going in circles here?
BoltBacker
Footballguy
If DET doesn't fix what's been very broken it won't really matter because it will be an entirely new coaching staff and likely GM re-making the team anyway. I'm not sure Patricia makes it through the season if they start slow.tangfoot said:
Deamon
Footballguy
Well you're wrong, that's not how it works. People don't trade into the top 3 for "amazing" defensive players. It almost never happens.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
But they can try to make decisions that give them a better chance to keep their job. I'm not saying it's not in the best interest for the DET franchise to trade down and acquire more young players that might develop into very good players..... just that if Patricia wants to keep that job he will be looking for players that can contribute right away early in the season. Seems to me the two guys that could help him the most immediately are Okudah and Young.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Yeah, I heard the same thing about NFL franchises not using the #1 pick on 6'1" QB's. Until they did. And then I heard the same thing about NFL franchises not using the #1 pick on 5'10" QB's. Until they did.
Deamon
Footballguy
Ok you're right. Young is an amazing player but not amazing enough for the Skins to want, but Amazing enough for Detroit to throw extra picks to move up one spot to take him from a team that doesn't want him. That's exactly how it's going to go, no point in arguing with you. You really should grasp how the draft and trades work, it's simply not how these things work. For your sake I hope you draft Tua since you see him as a top 3 pick and valuable to Washington.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Deamon
Footballguy
BoltBacker
Footballguy
I think you might add the Jets to that list. Gase is about half a season from losing his last chance to be a HC. Ever. And we all saw what the Jets looked like when Darnold missed time last season. Add to that the Jets are not only trying to upgrade OT but really need to use their draft pick to replace their #1 WR and you have a team that should be motivated to acquire an OT that isn't a "project" that may not get done until Gase is long gone.Brunell4MVP said:
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
I just think Trent's value goes up as the draft goes along. With the better teams with the ability to win now picking late, one of them that needs a LT is gonna miss out on players they wanted. So then they have to ask is Trent WIlliams better for me to win now than say an Isaiah Simmons that is better suited for RT or an Austin Jackson that will be good, but maybe not right away. One of those teams is gonna give up a late 2nd or a couple of 3rds to get Williams.
I actually wonder if there isn't a package that send Williams and pick #2 to JAX for #9, 20, and one of the players they are trying to unload.
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Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Rumor that Washington wants to trade down to teams other than Detroit. That would let Young fall to the Lions at #3.
Guinis72
Footballguy
Woot! I think teams that don't have a QB start to get desperate (like the trade up for Trubisky) before the draft out of FOMO. Like Mayock used to say, if you think a guy is a franchise QB, and you don't have one, you have to get him.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a trade down to the 5-7 range, hopefully with Mia. I'm not sure I believe all the "the Dolphins actually prefer Herbert" buzz leading up to the draft, I feel like any rumors put out there like that a week before the draft are just smokescreens.
Keeping the hope alive for Simmons or Okudah with our first pick (for those of us that want that)!!
NorrisB
Footballguy
I'd love Okudah and 1-2 extra top 40 picksWoot! I think teams that don't have a QB start to get desperate (like the trade up for Trubisky) before the draft out of FOMO. Like Mayock used to say, if you think a guy is a franchise QB, and you don't have one, you have to get him.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a trade down to the 5-7 range, hopefully with Mia. I'm not sure I believe all the "the Dolphins actually prefer Herbert" buzz leading up to the draft, I feel like any rumors put out there like that a week before the draft are just smokescreens.
Keeping the hope alive for Simmons or Okudah with our first pick (for those of us that want that)!!
nittanylion
Footballguy
Hello, Fellas!
So, given that it's a shameful, humiliating embarrassment to hold the #2 overall selection in the NFL Draft!, on merit (?), It's my most fervent hope that this is the rock bottom I've been waiting for the 'skins to hit, for years.
No dead cat bounce, please.
FTR, someone from the Team is working w me to help me hang on to my tickets. That's a pretty big step in the right direction, from my perspective.
Let's hope this weekend is, too.
So, given that it's a shameful, humiliating embarrassment to hold the #2 overall selection in the NFL Draft!, on merit (?), It's my most fervent hope that this is the rock bottom I've been waiting for the 'skins to hit, for years.
No dead cat bounce, please.
FTR, someone from the Team is working w me to help me hang on to my tickets. That's a pretty big step in the right direction, from my perspective.
Let's hope this weekend is, too.
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
Probably should be in the MIA forum, but I can't help but think of the disservice MIA did to itself by not finishing last. They would have had Burrow - an absolutely perfect fit for their system. Even tanking some would have gotten them Tua. Now there is a chance they have to trade two 1st rounders to move up 3 spots. All for what? Saying they won a couple more meaningless games. Not to mention higher picks in later rounds.
I don't actually think they think they are gonna trade up, but they may have to if they want Tua. They are taking a chance if they don't. And it all could have been avoided by not going 3-2 in their last 5, including a win against the Patriots in week 17 and a dumb win against CIN in week 16.
I know players and coaches are ingrained to win. But this is why NBA teams tank. Really tank.
I don't actually think they think they are gonna trade up, but they may have to if they want Tua. They are taking a chance if they don't. And it all could have been avoided by not going 3-2 in their last 5, including a win against the Patriots in week 17 and a dumb win against CIN in week 16.
I know players and coaches are ingrained to win. But this is why NBA teams tank. Really tank.
One quick thought: the Redskins really do lack great players. The best players are/were probably Trent Williams and Ryan Kerrigan. It is hard to be the best team in football without some great players. So that's a strong case for drafting Young, or maybe Tua.
Also, teams need 4-6 good DL in today's NFL. Teams like to rotate them to keep them fresh. The top DL men still get plays off, but they are times so when important downs come up, they are in there. So if they draft Young, I seriously doubt they have too many good defensive linemen.
Also, teams need 4-6 good DL in today's NFL. Teams like to rotate them to keep them fresh. The top DL men still get plays off, but they are times so when important downs come up, they are in there. So if they draft Young, I seriously doubt they have too many good defensive linemen.
Deamon
Footballguy
Hate this line of thinking. Yes it would have been 'better' for them to lose those games, but it's 100% unrealistic for those players to drop balls on purpose or make bad throws on purpose. You say you 'know players are ingrained to win", so what would have your solution been here? It's a shame they didn't lose the games but they absolutely did nothing 'wrong' and did not 'screw it up'
Deamon
Footballguy
I don't see any way this happens, can you explain how it could? Do you think Detroit is going to part with pick #35 to move up 1 spot?
Also, you say '1-2' extra picks... Miami is the only team that could give you 2 extra top 40 picks. If Miami moves up with you, Okudah is very unlikely to drop to 5 anyways.
Deamon
Footballguy
Exactly this. No matter how good Young is, if any team is trading up to #2, it's for a QB, not for Young.
I think your best chance at a trade is Miami. They're the only team in the top 7 that have the picks to move up to #2 (Chargers/Panthers both don't have what it takes to move up. Panthers wouldn't as they don't need a QB, and Chargers might but don't really have the draft capital, plus Simmons/Okudah likely won't be there at 6/7).Woot! I think teams that don't have a QB start to get desperate (like the trade up for Trubisky) before the draft out of FOMO. Like Mayock used to say, if you think a guy is a franchise QB, and you don't have one, you have to get him.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a trade down to the 5-7 range, hopefully with Mia. I'm not sure I believe all the "the Dolphins actually prefer Herbert" buzz leading up to the draft, I feel like any rumors put out there like that a week before the draft are just smokescreens.
Keeping the hope alive for Simmons or Okudah with our first pick (for those of us that want that)!!
Miami is your perfect trade partner, IF they have one of the qb's they're enamored with, and that would drop Young to 3, and you would be a lock for Simmons or Okudah (or your choice of the two if Giants go OL), I'm just not sold on Miami being in love with one of those 2 qb's enough, and I think they will play ball and dare Wash/Det/NYG to try to get the chargers to trade up or else just let their Qb fall right to them at 5.
caustic
Footballguy
In the event Miami trades up to 2, it seems fairly realistic for Okudah to be there at 5. The Lions would pick up Young and the Giants stick with Wirfs/Simmons/etc. at 4.
Deamon
Footballguy
Ya Miami is the only team that could do this. My point was that I doubt they will give up 2 extra top 40 picks to make the move to 2. 1 extra pick and still get okudah is possible (2 is not), but ONLY if it's Miami making the trade to 2.
NorrisB
Footballguy
Miami could move up to 2 or the chargers, also the raiders. 1-2 means 1 or 2, Miami would have to give 1.5, 1.26, 2.9.
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
Nobody moving up for Tua or Hebert at # 2. You can lock that down. Too easy to make same trade for #3 pick. Could see someone move up for Chase Young if the Skins are willing to accept a lower price than normal trade value chart.
The odds of it are low, but yes I do think DET would be willing to give up an extra pick just to get Chase Young. They need him WAY more than they need Okudah. The extra pick value would be 400. #41 is worth 550, so WAS would owe them a 3rd rounder back or something like that.
The NYG are really the ones that should be trading up for Young. But no way a deal like that gets done within a division. I can envision Young sacking Haskins 5 times a game.
The odds of it are low, but yes I do think DET would be willing to give up an extra pick just to get Chase Young. They need him WAY more than they need Okudah. The extra pick value would be 400. #41 is worth 550, so WAS would owe them a 3rd rounder back or something like that.
The NYG are really the ones that should be trading up for Young. But no way a deal like that gets done within a division. I can envision Young sacking Haskins 5 times a game.
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Deamon
Footballguy
Detroit has pick 35, not 41. No way they trade Okudah+35 to move up 1 spot... not even sure if they would if Wash through in 66.
I really think that trade doesn't make much sense for either team. I stand firm on no one trading up for Young, the odds of that are extremely low.
Guinis72
Footballguy
The Redskins would be smart to take that same offer for the #2. If you're the team making the offer, I think you'd offer it to Redskins first to avoid the chance of someone leapfrogging you and see if they bite. I don't think the salary difference would be a factor so I don't see the downside for that team. Hell, I'd probably take the 1.05 and 2.05 from MIA if it came down to it (I know that's bad "value" and they'd never take that though) but as long as they'd take a QB, we'd be good with Young, Simmons, or Okudah. If they didn't take a QB, and those three went 2-4, it'd suck, but our worst case scenario is trade down again or have our choice of LT.
It's going to be interesting because I could see teams preferring to get trades done before the draft starts, to avoid any potential tech/time hangups when they're on the clock. Hopefully we start to see a little more action pick up tomorrow or early Thurs.
Guinis72
Footballguy
No doubt. I was reading that a Trent for OJ trade could be tough for TB's salary cap, but that the Redskins could offer to help pick up some of his salary this year to help facilitate the trade. Seems like it'd make too much sense and Dan is probably too stubborn to do that though, IMO.
Grahamburn
Footballguy
Talks of something like this may heat up after the draft. Especially if the Bucs miss out on an OT.No doubt. I was reading that a Trent for OJ trade could be tough for TB's salary cap, but that the Redskins could offer to help pick up some of his salary this year to help facilitate the trade. Seems like it'd make too much sense and Dan is probably too stubborn to do that though, IMO.
ffmail4me
Footballguy
I disagree, the one thing Dan has done REALLY well during his tenor is sign big paychecks for players. Mind you, mostly the wrong players (Hanesworth and Sanders come to mind) but he's not allergic to opening up his checkbook.No doubt. I was reading that a Trent for OJ trade could be tough for TB's salary cap, but that the Redskins could offer to help pick up some of his salary this year to help facilitate the trade. Seems like it'd make too much sense and Dan is probably too stubborn to do that though, IMO.
Guinis72
Footballguy
That's the truth, money is definitely never an issue for him. I meant more just the idea of paying a player's salary that's playing for another team after refusing to play for yours, out of spite. I was (kind of) kidding though, hopefully he'd do it if it brought Howard here in a Trent trade.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Teams don't trade for "spots". Teams trade for players.
The fact that a team only has to trade up one spot instead of moving up from pick 26 makes the trade MORE likely imo, not less likely.
It really comes down to whether or not the other team believes in the player.... not the "spot".
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Are you assuming that WAS is only interested in 2020 picks? They have a new regime that should be there for several years. I'm not convinced the only picks they have any interest in are 2020 picks.Deamon said:
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