O. J Howard TE Alabama

[menobrown 2,700]

It's a concern but one thing to consider is his offenses used the RB's as little as it did the TE's in the passing game until he got Ellington and David Johnson. I believe before those two the highest amount of receptions a RB had under Arians was Mewelde Moore's 51. So he's shown an ability to adjust his offense and take advantage of what players do best.

Also Howard will for sure be an everydown TE. He's not going to get a chance for Kittle/Ertz/Kelce type usage which was difficult to see anyway but I think he'll do better then the 4.8 targets per game he saw last year.

[ZWK 1,572]

8 hours ago, fruity pebbles said:

Heath Miller had a 800 yard season in 2009

Heath Miller had 3 of his biggest 4 seasons (by YPG) after Arians left. He averaged 56/634/4.2 per 16 games with Arians at ages 25-29, and then averaged 77/772/4.6 with Todd Haley at ages 30-32.

[ILUVBEER99 1,196]

The good news is that Howard wasn’t getting many targets as is.  Hard to expect him to get even less considering his current low totals.

its not like TB was throwing to him much past couple years.  

[FreeBaGeL 6,881]

1 minute ago, ILUVBEER99 said:

The good news is that Howard wasn’t getting many targets as is.  Hard to expect him to get even less considering his current low totals.

its not like TB was throwing to him much past couple years.  

Sure, but Howard's value is where it is on the basis of him hopefully getting more targets, not continuing with the same.

I think he has the ability to be a Kelce/Ertz/Kittle level fantasy asset, but that probably became a lot more difficult with Arians in town.

Edited January 8 by FreeBaGeL

[Rhythmdoctor 1,274]

Count me as worried. 

[FF Ninja 2,784]

Well, this will be interesting to watch. If Arians loved Heath Miller, he's really going to love Howard. I think it is safe to say his days of only playing 60% of the snaps are over. Arians appreciates good blocking from the TE and he leans heavily on the vertical game, so hopefully he's able to fully utilize Howard to keep the defenses guessing. Howard is coming off back-to-back (albeit small sample) seasons with 16.6 ypr. He'd be crazy to waste that. 

I think we really need to dig deeper into the stats to paint the full picture about Arians and his use of TEs:

 From 2007-2011, PIT ranked 26th in pass attempts. When Arians started, the team still had the "run the ball and play defense" mentality, however, passing attempts increased in each of his seasons, going from 442 to 536, despite having the #1 ranked defense in his last two seasons. During that span, they ranked 25th in TE targets, so roughly in line with total pass attempts. As the interim HC for IND he ranked 5th in pass attempts and 13th in TE targets despite only having a pair of rookies to throw to. During his tenure in Arizona, they ranked 10th in pass attempts and they ranked 31st in TE targets. The top 3 over that span were Gresham, Housler, and Fells. So to me it seems he uses what he's got. And given that he had Michael Floyd and John Brown, two very good vertical threats when they were playing (not drunk or injured), to go with Fitzgerald, he really had no need to go out and get a receiving TE given he ran 3WR sets almost all the time.

Of note, from 2012-2015, PIT again ranked 25th in TE targets. The only difference is that the league as a whole was throwing the ball more. The team ranked 10th in pass attempts over those 4 years. So as a % of the offense, the TE targets actually dipped during Haley's tenure as compared to Arians. So it wasn't that Haley was good for Heath and Arians was bad. It was just the larger volume of passes during that time frame (589 PA/season vs. 498)  that propped up Heath's stats compared to his time with Arians.

[FreeBaGeL 6,881]

I think the good news is that he'll be on the field a lot since he can block and Arians values that, so hopefully the days of frustratingly watching him on the bench when he's catching 80% of his targets for 12 ypt are over.

On the flip side I think it will be one of those things where he has the frustrating random 1 catch for 4 yards type game in what should have been a great matchup because he will sometimes be used as basically an extra O-lineman when the line is having a bad game.

[Biabreakable 4,259]

While the history of Bruce Arians not utilizing the TE is certainly a cautionary tale, I think Howard is good enough to change that.

Only time will tell though. There are a lot of mouths to feed in this offense.

[Aznflyer14 93]

On 1/9/2019 at 9:32 AM, Biabreakable said:

While the history of Bruce Arians not utilizing the TE is certainly a cautionary tale, I think Howard is good enough to change that.

Only time will tell though. There are a lot of mouths to feed in this offense.

Agreed... However, I'm not worried about Howard or other play-makers.  This link on Arians' philosophy really does bode well for Buccaneers that possess young talent players who clearly need a strong coaching to turn vast potential into productive team.   I believe Arians will grow to love Howard's blocking and receiving skills to be utilized effectively. 

 

Edited January 14 by Aznflyer14

[Grahamburn 1,628]

15 hours ago, Aznflyer14 said:

Agreed... However, I'm not worried about Howard or other play-makers.  This link on Arians' philosophy really does bode well for Buccaneers that possess young talent players who clearly need a strong coach to turn vast potential to productive team.   I believe Arians will grow to love Howard's blocking and receiving skills to be utilized effectively. 

 

It's such a breath of fresh air to hear things like "we're going to be aggressive" and "we're going to tailor the system/scheme to the talents of the players we have."

[Faust 3,681]

Quote

Jameis Winston says the "moon" is the limit for O.J. Howard.

"The sky’s the limit really, not even the sky—probably the moon," said Winston, who also called Howard "incredible" while predicting he'd make his first Pro Bowl in 2019. Howard was well on his way to earning Pro Bowl status last season before a high-ankle sprain knocked him out of the Bucs' final six games. Among tight ends, only the trio of George Kittle, Travis Kelce and Gerald Everett earned higher marks from ProFootballFocus last year. A big red-zone target at a thin fantasy position, the 2017 first-rounder should be a popular pick in drafts this summer.

SOURCE: Pewter Report

Apr 12, 2019, 11:37 AM

 

[Aznflyer14 93]

On 4/12/2019 at 4:40 PM, Faust said:

 

One has to take Winston's hyped comment on Howard with a grain of salt.  

[the lone star 63]

A lot of people said that Howard was held back last year, but honestly, I thought he was fine. He was having a Pro-Bowl caliber year, at least in my eyes, before he got hurt. I hope he can keep that up, but there have been a lot of changes in Tampa, so I will have to keep my eye on the situation.

[Capella 21,746]

On 4/20/2019 at 1:28 AM, Aznflyer14 said:

One has to take Winston's hyped comment on Howard with a grain of salt.  

Why? Howard was awesome last year and Winston is the guy throwing the ball. 

[FreeBaGeL 6,881]

39 minutes ago, Capella said:

Why? Howard was awesome last year and Winston is the guy throwing the ball. 

I may be misremembering but I thought Howard was better with Fitz and Winston seemed to favor Brate. 

[Rhythmdoctor 1,274]

2 hours ago, FreeBaGeL said:

I may be misremembering but I thought Howard was better with Fitz and Winston seemed to favor Brate. 

That’s my recollection as well. 

[Jello_Biafra 417]

Howard improved on his first year, and Fitz took advantage of what a good player Howard is. Winston needed some time, but it looks like he's comfortable throwing to Howard now. Brate will be his TD guy, though.

[Faust 3,681]

O.J. Howard Ready to Make the Leap in Fantasy Leagues

[Faust 3,681]

FMIA Guest: PFF On How Data Is Changing NFL’s Present And Future

Excerpt:

Quote

O.J. Howard, TE, Tampa Bay Buccaneers: 

Another former first-round pick, Howard has yet to top 600 receiving yards or 35 receptions in a season, even while tight ends are breaking receiving records across the NFL. Dive deeper into the numbers, however, and Howard looks primed for a huge season with an uptick in opportunity. His overall PFF grade last season was 89.4, higher than any other tight end outside of San Francisco standout George Kittle. And on a yards per route basis, he was third behind only Kittle and Kansas City star Travis Kelce. His average depth of target was 11.3 yards downfield, a top-five mark in the league, and now the vertical threat he brings is being linked up with new Bucs coach Bruce Arians and an offense that lives down the field.

 

[Faust 3,681]

Can O.J. Howard Become an Elite TE? (2019 Fantasy Football)

[Tanner9919 350]

Arians throws water on the fire as he has never had a TE who was even remotely productive except maybe Heath Miller.

Howard has that Venon Davis look about him - yeah he SHOULD be Gronk or Gates-like, but he's not. he's just a guy at TE

 

[Jello_Biafra 417]

1 hour ago, Tanner9919 said:

Arians throws water on the fire as he has never had a TE who was even remotely productive except maybe Heath Miller.

Howard has that Venon Davis look about him - yeah he SHOULD be Gronk or Gates-like, but he's not. he's just a guy at TE

 

Now he does.

[Dr. Octopus 10,191]

5 hours ago, Tanner9919 said:

Howard has that Venon Davis look about him - yeah he SHOULD be Gronk or Gates-like, but he's not. he's just a guy at TE

 

What does this even mean?

[huthut 717]

5 hours ago, Tanner9919 said:

Arians throws water on the fire as he has never had a TE who was even remotely productive except maybe Heath Miller.

Howard has that Venon Davis look about him - yeah he SHOULD be Gronk or Gates-like, but he's not. he's just a guy at TE

 

How much would it cost to get Mike Singletary to show him his ###?

[kittenmittens 1,035]

6 hours ago, Tanner9919 said:

Arians throws water on the fire as he has never had a TE who was even remotely productive except maybe Heath Miller.

Howard has that Venon Davis look about him - yeah he SHOULD be Gronk or Gates-like, but he's not. he's just a guy at TE

 

Dwayne Allen, especially if you combine his passing game number with Fleener's share.  Both of those guys washed out later, but Arians got around 70 catches and 800 yards from a pair of rookie TEs with like 45/580 of that coming from Allen. 

I don't recall and didn't dig out that snap share for both players to see how often they ran 2 TE sets that year... 

[barackdhouse 905]

I seem to remember people making the argument that Winston throws to his TEs more than average. IDK

[Milkman 1,626]

Winston sure does love Brate.......hurts Howard's upside till he's gone......

[Andy Dufresne 7,759]

Winston loves Brate when the latter plays in Howard's place due to injury.

[FF Ninja 2,784]

On 7/24/2019 at 3:37 PM, Tanner9919 said:

Arians throws water on the fire as he has never had a TE who was even remotely productive except maybe Heath Miller.

Howard has that Venon Davis look about him - yeah he SHOULD be Gronk or Gates-like, but he's not. he's just a guy at TE

 

The truth is, Heath Miller was the only remotely noteworthy TE that Arians has ever had on his team. See quote below.

Howard's efficiency numbers directly contradict your second statement. His points per target = Gronk-like.

On 1/9/2019 at 7:23 AM, FF Ninja said:

Well, this will be interesting to watch. If Arians loved Heath Miller, he's really going to love Howard. I think it is safe to say his days of only playing 60% of the snaps are over. Arians appreciates good blocking from the TE and he leans heavily on the vertical game, so hopefully he's able to fully utilize Howard to keep the defenses guessing. Howard is coming off back-to-back (albeit small sample) seasons with 16.6 ypr. He'd be crazy to waste that. 

I think we really need to dig deeper into the stats to paint the full picture about Arians and his use of TEs:

 From 2007-2011, PIT ranked 26th in pass attempts. When Arians started, the team still had the "run the ball and play defense" mentality, however, passing attempts increased in each of his seasons, going from 442 to 536, despite having the #1 ranked defense in his last two seasons. During that span, they ranked 25th in TE targets, so roughly in line with total pass attempts. As the interim HC for IND he ranked 5th in pass attempts and 13th in TE targets despite only having a pair of rookies to throw to. During his tenure in Arizona, they ranked 10th in pass attempts and they ranked 31st in TE targets. The top 3 over that span were Gresham, Housler, and Fells. So to me it seems he uses what he's got. And given that he had Michael Floyd and John Brown, two very good vertical threats when they were playing (not drunk or injured), to go with Fitzgerald, he really had no need to go out and get a receiving TE given he ran 3WR sets almost all the time.

Of note, from 2012-2015, PIT again ranked 25th in TE targets. The only difference is that the league as a whole was throwing the ball more. The team ranked 10th in pass attempts over those 4 years. So as a % of the offense, the TE targets actually dipped during Haley's tenure as compared to Arians. So it wasn't that Haley was good for Heath and Arians was bad. It was just the larger volume of passes during that time frame (589 PA/season vs. 498)  that propped up Heath's stats compared to his time with Arians.

Given Arians' use of Heath Miller, I'd say he doesn't force the ball to the TE nor does he ignore the TE. I expect TE targets to be +/- 3 when compared to the team's rank in pass attempts. In other words, if they are 12th in pass attempts, I expect they'll rank anywhere from 9th to 15th in TE targets. Given Howard's efficiency, that should be plenty.

[-OZ- 5,478]

On 7/24/2019 at 3:37 PM, Tanner9919 said:

Arians throws water on the fire as he has never had a TE who was even remotely productive except maybe Heath Miller.

Howard has that Venon Davis look about him - yeah he SHOULD be Gronk or Gates-like, but he's not. he's just a guy at TE

 

😆

Just a top 5 guy. Very likely (imo) to be the best all around TE in the league for the next decade.

Believe it now or later. 

Edited July 26 by -OZ-

[iamkoza 452]

it feels like in all TB offensive evaluations... the change of offense here is almost being ignored completely. koetter may have been a terrible coach, but his offense sure put up fantasy numbers... arians has a good track record but not for TE production

[efactor 679]

I love Howard's ability and the fact that being a good blocker, he is on the field for most snaps.

My big concern is what is left over after Evans and Godwin get their share.  Evans is already a target monster and from Arian's comments about Godwin being on the field as an every play WR, I suspect, he will become target monster #2.  

On the positive side, Perriman  is their #3 currently and he's more of a deep threat and won't get the targets that Humphries got, so hopefully, a big chuck of those go to Howard. I would think Arian's wouldn't waste a talent like Howard.  

Been grabbing Howard a lot in the mid/late 5th in best balls,  After Howard, Engram and Henry  go in the 2nd tier of TEs, not much else I'm excited about.   

[Skoo 6,460]

2 hours ago, iamkoza said:

it feels like in all TB offensive evaluations... the change of offense here is almost being ignored completely. koetter may have been a terrible coach, but his offense sure put up fantasy numbers... arians has a good track record but not for TE production

While this is true, I think most would agree he's a good coach. It would be absolutely silly of him not to feature OJ. Dude is a freak of nature, I don't think the new coaching staff is just going to ignore that fact.

[tangfoot 1,380]

1 hour ago, Skoo said:

While this is true, I think most would agree he's a good coach. It would be absolutely silly of him not to feature OJ. Dude is a freak of nature, I don't think the new coaching staff is just going to ignore that fact.

it would be foolish to assume that he will be featured.  Arians MO is feed the #1 WR, pepper the RB with targets, and everyone else gets what's left over.  I think we can all agree that the vast majority of the leftovers will be going to Godwin, after that I'm not sure I want to rely on anyone for consistency.

[FreeBaGeL 6,881]

1 hour ago, tangfoot said:

it would be foolish to assume that he will be featured.  Arians MO is feed the #1 WR, pepper the RB with targets, and everyone else gets what's left over.  I think we can all agree that the vast majority of the leftovers will be going to Godwin, after that I'm not sure I want to rely on anyone for consistency.

This isn't really true.  Arians' MO has typically been to adjust his offense as the players dictate.  He didnt' really pepper the RB with targets until he got an elite receiving back in David Johnson.  And he didn't feed the #1 WR until it was clear that the secondary guys he had weren't going to work out as well as he'd hoped.

2013 targets:
Fitzgerald: 134
Floyd: 113
Ellington: 57

2014 targets:
Fitzgerald: 103
John Brown: 102
Floyd: 99
Ellington: 64

2015 targets:
Fitzgerald: 145
John Brown: 101
Floyd: 89
DJ: 57

2016 targets:
Fitzgerald: 150
Nelson: 74
DJ: 120

2017 targets:
Fitzgerald: 161
Ja Brown: 69
Ellington: 50

The trend seems pretty clear.  When he thought he had other good receiving options, he used them.  When those guys busted and left town and the options were poor (Nelson and Ja Brown both caught under 50% of their targets which is awful) he forcefed the #1 guy who was his only reliable option.

Similar at RB.  He peppered his elite MVP RB who was a great receiver with targets.  When he didn't have that kind of RB (and he certainly doesn't this year) he didn't really target the RB any more than the league average.

[tangfoot 1,380]

Thanks for the reply.  Chicken and the egg question:  Did he have ####ty TE production because he had ####ty TEs, or did he cause the TEs to look like #### because he didn't use them?

[-OZ- 5,478]

4 hours ago, efactor said:

I love Howard's ability and the fact that being a good blocker, he is on the field for most snaps.

My big concern is what is left over after Evans and Godwin get their share.  Evans is already a target monster and from Arian's comments about Godwin being on the field as an every play WR, I suspect, he will become target monster #2.  

On the positive side, Perriman  is their #3 currently and he's more of a deep threat and won't get the targets that Humphries got, so hopefully, a big chuck of those go to Howard. I would think Arian's wouldn't waste a talent like Howard.  

Been grabbing Howard a lot in the mid/late 5th in best balls,  After Howard, Engram and Henry  go in the 2nd tier of TEs, not much else I'm excited about.   

I might be wrong on Godwin, but I see him being more down field. Not a pure deep threat, but more so than OJ.  OJ should be 2a with Godwin 2b. 

2 hours ago, tangfoot said:

it would be foolish to assume that he will be featured.  Arians MO is feed the #1 WR, pepper the RB with targets, and everyone else gets what's left over.  I think we can all agree that the vast majority of the leftovers will be going to Godwin, after that I'm not sure I want to rely on anyone for consistency.

Maybe if the RB were capable. 

[Tanner9919 350]

On 7/24/2019 at 9:46 PM, Dr. Octopus said:

What does this even mean?

sorry you can't follow along,  i'll talk slowly and try to fill you in as we go. 

check the stats on venon davis' time in the NFL..they're underwhelming by a large margin.he was a freak of nature . he was supposed to be a dominant TE , productive like gronk or tony gonzale.maybe you're too young to remember the hype surrounding davis. he was as dynamic a player as anyone had ever been at the TE position coming out of college.he fizzled in the nfl.he's just a guy. OJ Howard look like he could be headed that way. nothing jumps out at you to say that he's going to be anything more than a servicable player at his position.that,and he shares time with brate.in an offensive system that up to this point in time has not really made use out of the TE position.he might develop and bloom under Arians but histoy and evidence suggest he'll just be a JAG at the position.

did that answer your question or do you need more time? 

 

 

 

 

[FreeBaGeL 6,881]

2 hours ago, tangfoot said:

Thanks for the reply.  Chicken and the egg question:  Did he have ####ty TE production because he had ####ty TEs, or did he cause the TEs to look like #### because he didn't use them?

None of the TEs really broke out and became elite without him so I would guess it's the former.  Fleener, Dwayne Allen, Rob Housler, etc didn't exactly become studs after they freed themself of Arians.

[FreeBaGeL 6,881]

1 hour ago, Tanner9919 said:

check the stats on venon davis' time in the NFL..they're underwhelming by a large margin.he was a freak of nature . he was supposed to be a dominant TE , productive like gronk or tony gonzale.maybe you're too young to remember the hype surrounding davis. he was as dynamic a player as anyone had ever been at the TE position coming out of college.he fizzled in the nfl.he's just a guy. OJ Howard look like he could be headed that way. nothing jumps out at you to say that he's going to be anything more than a servicable player at his position.that,and he shares time with brate.in an offensive system that up to this point in time has not really made use out of the TE position.he might develop and bloom under Arians but histoy and evidence suggest he'll just be a JAG at the position.

 

Vernon Davis was a freak athletically, but his efficiency didn't match.  His efficiency his first 2 years in the league was terrible.

OJH is not nearly the freak athletically that Davis is, but he is a freak when it comes to efficiency.

Saying nothing jumps out to say OJH is going to be more than a serviceable player is beyond silly.  Even if he never lives up to it he is the most obvious candidate for a breakout elite TE we've seen in a long time, because his efficiency in his first 2 years was only rivaled by guys like Gronkowski and Kelce who ended up blowing up.

[-OZ- 5,478]

2 hours ago, Tanner9919 said:

sorry you can't follow along,  i'll talk slowly and try to fill you in as we go. 

check the stats on venon davis' time in the NFL..they're underwhelming by a large margin.he was a freak of nature . he was supposed to be a dominant TE , productive like gronk or tony gonzale.maybe you're too young to remember the hype surrounding davis. he was as dynamic a player as anyone had ever been at the TE position coming out of college.he fizzled in the nfl.he's just a guy. OJ Howard look like he could be headed that way. nothing jumps out at you to say that he's going to be anything more than a servicable player at his position.that,and he shares time with brate.in an offensive system that up to this point in time has not really made use out of the TE position.he might develop and bloom under Arians but histoy and evidence suggest he'll just be a JAG at the position.

did that answer your question or do you need more time? 

 

 

 

 

https://www.bucsnation.com/2019/2/21/18232144/pff-grades-buccaneers-o-j-howard-as-second-best-tight-end-in-2018

JAG. 

(yes, PFF's ranking is just one method)

The comp to VD is beyond silly. OJ is closer to Jason Witten or Greg Olsen as a player. 

Edited July 26 by -OZ-

[efactor 679]

3 hours ago, -OZ- said:

I might be wrong on Godwin, but I see him being more down field. Not a pure deep threat, but more so than OJ.  OJ should be 2a with Godwin 2b. 

 

Godwin is a pretty well rounded receiver.  Someone who I really want this year in the late 4th, early 5th.

Like Howard too.  I know most players don't like 2 receivers from the same team, but I'm good with it.  Definitely makes that team more fun to watch.

 

[Dr. Octopus 10,191]

3 hours ago, Tanner9919 said:

sorry you can't follow along,  i'll talk slowly and try to fill you in as we go. 

check the stats on venon davis' time in the NFL..they're underwhelming by a large margin.he was a freak of nature . he was supposed to be a dominant TE , productive like gronk or tony gonzale.maybe you're too young to remember the hype surrounding davis. he was as dynamic a player as anyone had ever been at the TE position coming out of college.he fizzled in the nfl.he's just a guy. OJ Howard look like he could be headed that way. nothing jumps out at you to say that he's going to be anything more than a servicable player at his position.that,and he shares time with brate.in an offensive system that up to this point in time has not really made use out of the TE position.he might develop and bloom under Arians but histoy and evidence suggest he'll just be a JAG at the position.

did that answer your question or do you need more time? 

 

 

 

 

The writing style was easier to understand, yes. I don’t really agree with the substance but you may be right. So far he’s looked good for a young TE and you listed his physical advantages. He has to have that big season though or sure it could all be for nothing. I think it may be this one, but it’s why we watch them play the games - we don’t know.

Edited July 26 by Dr. Octopus

[Shawnky 213]

3 hours ago, Tanner9919 said:

sorry you can't follow along,  i'll talk slowly and try to fill you in as we go. 

check the stats on venon davis' time in the NFL..they're underwhelming by a large margin.he was a freak of nature . he was supposed to be a dominant TE , productive like gronk or tony gonzale.maybe you're too young to remember the hype surrounding davis. he was as dynamic a player as anyone had ever been at the TE position coming out of college.he fizzled in the nfl.he's just a guy. OJ Howard look like he could be headed that way. nothing jumps out at you to say that he's going to be anything more than a servicable player at his position.that,and he shares time with brate.in an offensive system that up to this point in time has not really made use out of the TE position.he might develop and bloom under Arians but histoy and evidence suggest he'll just be a JAG at the position.

did that answer your question or do you need more time? 

 

 

 

 

Not only are you being a Richard, but this post is utter nonsense.

[efactor 679]

2 hours ago, FreeBaGeL said:

Vernon Davis was a freak athletically, but his efficiency didn't match.  His efficiency his first 2 years in the league was terrible.

OJH is not nearly the freak athletically that Davis is, but he is a freak when it comes to efficiency.

Saying nothing jumps out to say OJH is going to be more than a serviceable player is beyond silly.  Even if he never lives up to it he is the most obvious candidate for a breakout elite TE we've seen in a long time, because his efficiency in his first 2 years was only rivaled by guys like Gronkowski and Kelce who ended up blowing up.

Davis actually did pretty damn well when you consider the QBs he played with during his prime years in SF.  Alex Smith was the best QB he played with, and he wasn't very good while he was with SF. Got better under Reid.  Shawn Hill, Trent Dilfer, Troy Smith, JT O'sullivan.  A lot of crap.  Had a 13 TD season with Smith/Hill in 2009.  Rest of the team had 10 combined TD catches.  Had another with 13 TD season with Kapernick in 2013.  Rest of the team had 8 combined.  Davis just never played in a pass first offense.   Davis was also an excellent blocker and a big contributor to the SF running game under Harbaugh.

Anyway, yeah, saying Howard will be a, serviceable player at best shows a total misunderstanding of him as a player.  

 

Edited July 27 by efactor

[Hankmoody 3,172]

4 hours ago, Tanner9919 said:

sorry you can't follow along,  i'll talk slowly and try to fill you in as we go. 

check the stats on venon davis' time in the NFL..they're underwhelming by a large margin.he was a freak of nature . he was supposed to be a dominant TE , productive like gronk or tony gonzale.maybe you're too young to remember the hype surrounding davis. he was as dynamic a player as anyone had ever been at the TE position coming out of college.he fizzled in the nfl.he's just a guy. OJ Howard look like he could be headed that way. nothing jumps out at you to say that he's going to be anything more than a servicable player at his position.that,and he shares time with brate.in an offensive system that up to this point in time has not really made use out of the TE position.he might develop and bloom under Arians but histoy and evidence suggest he'll just be a JAG at the position. 

did that answer your question or do you need more time?  

You don't need to be such a db about it.

You could also stand to make more sense because your points are awful.

[Jello_Biafra 417]

Good thing Arians didn't go to KC or Kelce would be worthless.

[efactor 679]

4 hours ago, Tanner9919 said:

sorry you can't follow along,  i'll talk slowly and try to fill you in as we go. 

check the stats on venon davis' time in the NFL..they're underwhelming by a large margin.he was a freak of nature . he was supposed to be a dominant TE , productive like gronk or tony gonzale.maybe you're too young to remember the hype surrounding davis. he was as dynamic a player as anyone had ever been at the TE position coming out of college.he fizzled in the nfl.he's just a guy. OJ Howard look like he could be headed that way. nothing jumps out at you to say that he's going to be anything more than a servicable player at his position.that,and he shares time with brate.in an offensive system that up to this point in time has not really made use out of the TE position.he might develop and bloom under Arians but histoy and evidence suggest he'll just be a JAG at the position.

did that answer your question or do you need more time? 

 

 

Good lord.  

For one thing, Davis has nothing to do with Howard, so comparing them is plain foolish, especially after just two years in for Howard.  Very few TEs,  regardless of where they are drafted, tear up the NFL in their first two seasons.  Ertz had 13 total TDs in his first 4 seasons.  Howard has 11 in his first two.  Is Ertz a JAG because he didn't tear it up early? You can take any random TE who was drafted early and make a comparison, but it doesn't mean squat.  

While Davis didn't have a HOF career, he was hardly a JAG.  Held the NFL record for TDs by a TE in a single season until Gronk broke it.   Two 13 TD seasons.  3 900 yard receiving seasons (OK, 2, but another one with 890).  Was also an excellent blocker, which probably worked against him as a receiver.  All while playing for 49er teams with below average passers at QB.  Gronk played with Brady.  Davis played with Alex Smith and Kaepernick.  Advantage Gronk.

 

[-OZ- 5,478]

1 hour ago, efactor said:

Godwin is a pretty well rounded receiver.  Someone who I really want this year in the late 4th, early 5th.

Like Howard too.  I know most players don't like 2 receivers from the same team, but I'm good with it.  Definitely makes that team more fun to watch.

 

I have at least one, on most teams two of these guys on every team. Evans is the beast but both others should be good. 

Should be a fun offense.

[DAG 152]

I agree strongly with everyone who is pointing to Howard's efficiency as a reason to be high on him.  I won't pretend to know what Arians will do as far as usage goes. I'm not as worried about his history because I am persuaded, as others have argued above, that he has typically designed his offense around his best players. But who knows. To me the gamble is worth it because of the landscape at TE. 

If he moves up into that top tier, he joins a group with Kelce aging a bit, Ertz potentially sharing some targets with Goedert, and the 2019 rookie TEs possibly a couple years from relevance. Kittle is the young breakout star in that tier (I'm not citing Engram here because of his bad efficiency numbers, but he could slide in too I suppose). I think Kelce and Ertz have plenty left, but Howard would be highly valuable as someone who folks in TE premium regard as a potential long-term fixture. I'm buying on that potential, especially where Arians and the other receivers in TB are making folks hesitant.