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O. J Howard TE Alabama

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52 minutes ago, fruity pebbles said:

I'd take an injured Henry over him at this point and going forward

at least you know not to hope for anything when starting an injured player

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Bloom has him in the "High Floor" category in the weekly tier ranking.  I know, I know its hard to predict things, but thought it was funny.  

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This reminds me of how Martz used to use, actually not use, prime Vernon Davis as a receiver.

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10 minutes ago, ILUVBEER99 said:

This reminds me of how Martz used to use, actually not use, prime Vernon Davis as a receiver.

How about the Bears trading Olsen to the Panthers because Martz didn't want him?

And then Martz leaving the Bears soon thereafter?

And Olsen going on to have a great 7+ years including 3 1,000 yard seasons?

Yea, still :hot: about that one.

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5 minutes ago, Christo said:

How about the Bears trading Olsen to the Panthers because Martz didn't want him?

And: Cheap.

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4 minutes ago, Christo said:

How about the Bears trading Olsen to the Panthers because Martz didn't want him?

And then Martz leaving the Bears soon thereafter?

And Olsen going on to have a great 7+ years including 3 1,000 yard seasons?

Yea, still :hot: about that one.

The Bears traded Olsen because they didn't use him and had absolutely no cap left to sign him at the end of the season. 

 

As a Bears fan it hurts, but that was the reason for the trade. 

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Just now, SaintsInDome2006 said:

And: Cheap.

Yes, I just looked it up but didn't have the heart to post the pick received or player taken. :(

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3 minutes ago, candian fantasy guy said:

The Bears traded Olsen because they didn't use him and had absolutely no cap left to sign him at the end of the season. 

 

As a Bears fan it hurts, but that was the reason for the trade. 

I can still gripe about the Bears/Martz experiment, dammit!

Edited by Christo
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22 minutes ago, candian fantasy guy said:

The Bears traded Olsen because they didn't use him and had absolutely no cap left to sign him at the end of the season. 

 

As a Bears fan it hurts, but that was the reason for the trade. 

Well yeah.  That’s kind of the point.  He didn’t use one of the best receiving TE’s in history when he had him.

 

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I think the talent is there, but I can't really say I'm excited about him short term.  I don't own him, but if I did, I wouldn't sell low.

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I’ve been really high on him all offseason and in one TE premium dynasty made a fairly substantial investment. All of the factors for other emergent studs at TE have been there in terms of early career efficiency. 

That said the Arians part of this was always an issue. My hope was his prior usage was related to the talent he had at the position as opposed to system/stubbornness. Maybe his recent criticism of Howard’s play at least shows he’s thinking about him as part of the offense but who knows. Plus Brate. Plus Winston. I think in dynasty he’s still valuable but this feels like a long game now and Arians isn’t going anywhere. 

 

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I think when the ball hit him in the hands and dropped right into SF's arms, Arians had seen enough out of a position he might not have liked anyway.

That quote from Bloom seems ugly. Like doghouse ugly.

In redraft, Brate becomes an option with Perriman completely unable to handle WR3. I'd buy now if you're hurting at TE. Just a roster spot, if -- if -- that roster spot is jus' holdin' something unlikely to come to fruition. And I'm spitballin' here as a non-expert. Please don't forget that.

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he was my onl y real te in a dyno league im contending....so i traded for waller...and benched oj this week

 

leopard doesnt change his spots....arians lack of te production was easy to predict 

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38 minutes ago, bicycle_seat_sniffer said:

leopard doesnt change his spots....arians lack of te production was easy to predict 

Arians used Heath Miller often in the passing game when he was the OC in Pittsburgh. Miller even made the pro bowl under him. Arians has always said that a TE is a blocker first for him, and a catcher second. If Howard can improve his all around game (he has the talent), the passes will come.

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17 minutes ago, simey said:

Arians used Heath Miller often in the passing game when he was the OC in Pittsburgh. Miller even made the pro bowl under him. Arians has always said that a TE is a blocker first for him, and a catcher second. If Howard can improve his all around game (he has the talent), the passes will come.

No offense but I don’t know how to say this any nicer.  I agreed with everything you said until the last sentence.  The last sentence is just dumb.  

Howard is an excellent receiver.  Better than brate.  And way better with the ball in his hands after the catch.  He has elite skills for a TE.  And he was one of the most polished and well rounded blocking and catching te’s to come into the league ever.  A phenom.  Only injuries and idiotic coaching have held him from breaking into the top 3 elite te rankings.  

If im arians, and I like using the middle of the field with Godwin, I would LOVE the mismatches I can get in the middle of the field with an elite talent like Howard.  He would be an every down player for me with brate on the bench mostly and a focal point of the passing game.  The 3 headed monster of Evans/Howard/Godwin can be absolutely deadly.  Throw in a deep shot to perriman here and there and you’ve got one hell of an offense.  

It might be that the o  line is so bad that arians wants Howard’s blocking prowess helping to keep a clean pocket.  And I can understand that.  However there are a ton of great blocking te’s in the league.  And they can be had for cheap.  Arians should have signed one of those to stay in and block while letting Howard run free in the middle of the field all game.  

I was one of the people who chose not to buy into the “arians doesn’t use te’s “ argument and I resigned Howard in dyno and drafted him in the 5th rd in redraft.  Big mistake. At least in redraft. I quickly traded him away on Tuesday when news of Huber Henry’s injury broke.  Traded him to the Henry owner for mayfield.  So glad I did it.  Moving forward with Waller and graham and feel pretty good.  

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11 minutes ago, rickyg said:

No offense but I don’t know how to say this any nicer.  I agreed with everything you said until the last sentence.  The last sentence is just dumb.

You don’t know how to say it any nicer than “The last sentence is just dumb”? Maybe you shouldn’t be calling anything dumb if that’s the case.

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Just now, Dr. Octopus said:

You don’t know how to say it any nicer than “The last sentence is just dumb”? Maybe you shouldn’t be calling anything dumb if that’s the case.

Well, technically I said that what he said was dumb, not him.  BUT, you’re right man.  I’m better than that.  Sorry for saying that Simey. Allow me to ratify my statement. It wasn’t dumb.  I just disagreed. 

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9 minutes ago, rickyg said:

No offense but I don’t know how to say this any nicer.  I agreed with everything you said until the last sentence.  The last sentence is just dumb.  

Howard is an excellent receiver.  Better than brate.  And way better with the ball in his hands after the catch.  He has elite skills for a TE.  And he was one of the most polished and well rounded blocking and catching te’s to come into the league ever.  A phenom.  Only injuries and idiotic coaching have held him from breaking into the top 3 elite te rankings.  

If you don't know how to say that any nicer, then maybe you just aren't nice. Anyway, that last sentence wasn't dumb. Bruce Arians said that Howard could play a lot better. He hasn't played well to start the season. If your HC says you need to play better, that means you need to improve. Maybe he is having a hard time adjusting to the new offense. Whatever the reason, even the best can improve in some areas.

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1 minute ago, simey said:

If you don't know how to say that any nicer, then maybe you just aren't nice. Anyway, that last sentence wasn't dumb. Bruce Arians said that Howard could play a lot better. He hasn't played well to start the season. If your HC says you need to play better, that means you need to improve. Maybe he is having a hard time adjusting to the new offense. Whatever the reason, even the best can improve in some areas.

Hey man.  Sorry about that.  I shouldn’t have said dumb.  

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3 minutes ago, rickyg said:

Hey man.  Sorry about that.  I shouldn’t have said dumb.  

:thanks:

This doesn't happen very often.  Good on you for owning up to it and apologizing.  We need more of this and less defending/arguing when we are wrong.  

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5 minutes ago, rickyg said:

Hey man.  Sorry about that.  I shouldn’t have said dumb.  

Apology accepted, icky ricky  ricky.  ;)

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18 minutes ago, rickyg said:

No offense but I don’t know how to say this any nicer.  I agreed with everything you said until the last sentence.  The last sentence is just dumb.  

Howard is an excellent receiver.  Better than brate.  And way better with the ball in his hands after the catch.  He has elite skills for a TE.  And he was one of the most polished and well rounded blocking and catching te’s to come into the league ever.  A phenom.  Only injuries and idiotic coaching have held him from breaking into the top 3 elite te rankings.  

If im arians, and I like using the middle of the field with Godwin, I would LOVE the mismatches I can get in the middle of the field with an elite talent like Howard.  He would be an every down player for me with brate on the bench mostly and a focal point of the passing game.  The 3 headed monster of Evans/Howard/Godwin can be absolutely deadly.  Throw in a deep shot to perriman here and there and you’ve got one hell of an offense.  

It might be that the o  line is so bad that arians wants Howard’s blocking prowess helping to keep a clean pocket.  And I can understand that.  However there are a ton of great blocking te’s in the league.  And they can be had for cheap.  Arians should have signed one of those to stay in and block while letting Howard run free in the middle of the field all game.  

I was one of the people who chose not to buy into the “arians doesn’t use te’s “ argument and I resigned Howard in dyno and drafted him in the 5th rd in redraft.  Big mistake. At least in redraft. I quickly traded him away on Tuesday when news of Huber Henry’s injury broke.  Traded him to the Henry owner for mayfield.  So glad I did it.  Moving forward with Waller and graham and feel pretty good.  

I would say you are probably confusing elite athleticism with elite receiving skills.  Howard's production didn't match his elite athleticism in college and now we are seeing the same thing on the pro level.  Maybe he hasn't put it together yet and needs to improve as his coach says.  Brate and Howard have played together a little over two years.  The snap counts is 1151 (Brate) to 1099 (Howard).

Brate has 82 receptions 826 yards  12 TD

Howard has 64 reception 1027 yards 11 TD

 

Sometimes, these elite athletes at TE are not elite receivers and it takes some time for them to become productive.  Vernon Davis and Jared Cook are prime examples.

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Good on you both, simey and rickyg, for keeping it civil by one owning up and apologizing and one shaking it off and accepting. I slip all the time. So that's nice to see.

Edited by rockaction
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50 minutes ago, simey said:

Arians used Heath Miller often in the passing game when he was the OC in Pittsburgh

 

This is a terribly wrong myth I wish people would keep repeating.

He was the OC for 5 years in Pittsburgh. One year he used him. The other 4 years he did not. This is not using your TE, this is a one year anomaly.

That one year he got 98 target and went for 76/789

The other 4 years with Bruce, playing 60 out of a possible 64 games, he averaged 67 targets for 47/555.

The year after Bruce left Miller had a career high in yards.

Put this another way if you look at his 5 most targeted seasons of his career 4 of them came after Bruce left and then he retired. And considering he was 30-33  during those years when by all accounts his usage should probably decline a little it's even worse.

I have a ton of fantasy teams and OJ Howard on two of them, one of which is a dynasty rebuild so I don't even care if he is not used.  I'm saying this to highlight I'm not going on this spiel because I'm a frustrated OJ Howard fantasy owner, in fact on the whole I benefit from his lack of use. But I absolutely hate coaching that can't adjust their scheme for the talent they have. Would say same things about Mike Martz who could not adjust his offense to use Greg Olsen. Bruce Arians has had some good success in this league, he's also the coach who needed injuries to both CJ2K and Andre Ellington for David Johnson to break out late in his rookie season.  I personally think he is pretty overrated as an offensive mind, but for sure pretty great for fantasy if you got the primary slot WR in his offense.

 

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Noted that the post above covered my point.

Edited by rockaction

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4 hours ago, menobrown said:

I have a ton of fantasy teams and OJ Howard on two of them, one of which is a dynasty rebuild so I don't even care if he is not used.  I'm saying this to highlight I'm not going on this spiel because I'm a frustrated OJ Howard fantasy owner, in fact on the whole I benefit from his lack of use.

 

This is where I am mostly. Howard failing to produce this year would honestly help me w a rebuild in a TE premium dynasty. My concern is whether this is going to be the reality long term since Arians isn’t going anywhere. 

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Curious if panicked owners in 12+ team leagues are moving aggressively for plan B trade options.

Nothing is on the wire that's any better.

Think I have an opportunity to trade J. Goff for TJ Hockenson to a troubled Big Ben owner. Thinking about it.

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41 minutes ago, kyoun1e said:

Curious if panicked owners in 12+ team leagues are moving aggressively for plan B trade options.

Nothing is on the wire that's any better.

Think I have an opportunity to trade J. Goff for TJ Hockenson to a troubled Big Ben owner. Thinking about it.

I am not giving up on him but He's earned a nice comfy spot on my bench.  I am going with Waller until OJ starts producing.

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Speaking about O.J. Howard's slow start on Tuesday, Bucs coach Bruce Arians said "the balls will come."

"We don't dictate who gets the ball, the defense does," Arians protested. "So sometimes it will spread around for different people every week." That, of course, makes sense in theory, but it is hard to believe Howard could play 55 snaps and draw zero targets, which is what happened in Week 2. Fantasy players wanted to believe Arians' lack of roto-relevant tight ends in Arizona was more because of a lack of talent than scheme, but it is looking like the uber-talented Howard is going to be a season-long rollercoaster in Arians' offense. It does sound like there is some squeaky wheel potential for Week 3 against the Giants.

SOURCE: Greg Auman on Twitter

Sep 17, 2019, 5:01 PM ET

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I wouldn't count on Arians changing things. Remember, this is the same guy who kept DJ chained up his rookie season until forced into giving him more PT due to an injury. He's also the guy who gave Barber the vast majority of touches in week 2 after RoJo outplayed him in week 1.

Arians might be a good offensive mind, but he can be a stubborn SOB.

Edited by Football Jones

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On 9/16/2019 at 3:08 PM, kyoun1e said:

Curious if panicked owners in 12+ team leagues are moving aggressively for plan B trade options.

Nothing is on the wire that's any better.

Think I have an opportunity to trade J. Goff for TJ Hockenson to a troubled Big Ben owner. Thinking about it.

If there is ever a week he should deliver, it's this one. The Giants haven't been able to stop a TE for what seems like a decade now. Week 1 in Dallas they gave up TD's to both of the TE's. I have a hard time seeing OJ not doing SOMETHING. If he doesn't and Brate does, I say time to move on.

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15 minutes ago, BigBlue_RI said:

If there is ever a week he should deliver, it's this one. The Giants haven't been able to stop a TE for what seems like a decade now. Week 1 in Dallas they gave up TD's to both of the TE's. I have a hard time seeing OJ not doing SOMETHING. If he doesn't and Brate does, I say time to move on.

Agree.

This feels like a week where OJ owners who dropped or benched him kick themselves all week.

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He stinks and is shot this year but is to this point better than anything on my wire.  Just gotta temper expectations, I'll take a top 10 finish but any hope of top 6 has sailed

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Quote

O.J. Howard caught 3-of-4 targets for 66 yards in Tampa Bay's Week 3 loss to the Giants.

It's a vast improvement from the egg Howard laid in the box score last week. This of course comes only a few days after coach Bruce Arians said the "balls will come" to the 24-year-old after he was questioned about Howard's lack of involvement on 55 snaps in Week 2's win. Either way, it's a step in the right direction for Tampa Bay's primary tight end, keeping Howard as a hold-your-nose starter for at least one more week.

Sep 22, 2019, 8:30 PM ET

 

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Not sure about anyone else but I'm breathing a sigh of relief.

Believe there were some other opportunities left on the table too.

I'll take it.

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Yeah, I just want him to show some signs of life and remain relevant - especially from a long-term dynasty perspective. The fact that he was a topic of conversation all week and then made a big catch this week and put up decent yardage is .... mildly encouraging. I still worry that Arians is that stubborn and their line is that bad, that they'll need his blocking ability a lot this year. But signs of life are good.

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On 9/14/2019 at 12:14 PM, menobrown said:

This is a terribly wrong myth I wish people would keep repeating.

He was the OC for 5 years in Pittsburgh. One year he used him. The other 4 years he did not. This is not using your TE, this is a one year anomaly.

That one year he got 98 target and went for 76/789

The other 4 years with Bruce, playing 60 out of a possible 64 games, he averaged 67 targets for 47/555.

The year after Bruce left Miller had a career high in yards.

Put this another way if you look at his 5 most targeted seasons of his career 4 of them came after Bruce left and then he retired. And considering he was 30-33  during those years when by all accounts his usage should probably decline a little it's even worse.

I have a ton of fantasy teams and OJ Howard on two of them, one of which is a dynasty rebuild so I don't even care if he is not used.  I'm saying this to highlight I'm not going on this spiel because I'm a frustrated OJ Howard fantasy owner, in fact on the whole I benefit from his lack of use. But I absolutely hate coaching that can't adjust their scheme for the talent they have. Would say same things about Mike Martz who could not adjust his offense to use Greg Olsen. Bruce Arians has had some good success in this league, he's also the coach who needed injuries to both CJ2K and Andre Ellington for David Johnson to break out late in his rookie season.  I personally think he is pretty overrated as an offensive mind, but for sure pretty great for fantasy if you got the primary slot WR in his offense.

Or is your statement the myth? The truth of the matter is that Arians was neither good nor bad for Heath Miller. Arians merely targeted the TE around the average TE target pace across the NFL with his QB pass attempts (see first paragraph, bolded below). After Arians left, they actually targeted the TE less frequently as a percentage of pass attempts, but it confused casual box score warriors because TE targets went up (see second paragraph, bolded below). As the old phrase goes, a rising tide lifts all ships. So even though PIT TE targets still ranked 25th in league targets, it was a higher total number since the league as a whole was throwing more passes. So Arians was in fact not holding Miller back - he was just not calling a lot of pass plays (for a variety of reasons). I'm confident if Arians had been passing more from 2007-2011, Miller's targets would've gone up accordingly.

On 1/9/2019 at 7:23 AM, FF Ninja said:

From 2007-2011, PIT ranked 26th in pass attempts. When Arians started, the team still had the "run the ball and play defense" mentality, however, passing attempts increased in each of his seasons, going from 442 to 536, despite having the #1 ranked defense in his last two seasons. During that span, they ranked 25th in TE targets, so roughly in line with total pass attempts. As the interim HC for IND he ranked 5th in pass attempts and 13th in TE targets despite only having a pair of rookies to throw to. During his tenure in Arizona, they ranked 10th in pass attempts and they ranked 31st in TE targets. The top 3 over that span were Gresham, Housler, and Fells. So to me it seems he uses what he's got. And given that he had Michael Floyd and John Brown, two very good vertical threats when they were playing (not drunk or injured), to go with Fitzgerald, he really had no need to go out and get a receiving TE given he ran 3WR sets almost all the time.

Of note, from 2012-2015, PIT again ranked 25th in TE targets. The only difference is that the league as a whole was throwing the ball more. The team ranked 10th in pass attempts over those 4 years. So as a % of the offense, the TE targets actually dipped during Haley's tenure as compared to Arians. So it wasn't that Haley was good for Heath and Arians was bad. It was just the larger volume of passes during that time frame (589 PA/season vs. 498)  that propped up Heath's stats compared to his time with Arians.

 

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On 9/14/2019 at 11:58 AM, Nero said:

I would say you are probably confusing elite athleticism with elite receiving skills.  Howard's production didn't match his elite athleticism in college and now we are seeing the same thing on the pro level. 

I'm not saying the guy is perfect, but Howard's production per target is indeed elite.

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The "experts" are saying he's a universal sit this weekend. That said, haven't seen any real data on how good the LAR's are against TEs. I thought they were tough on the perimeter, but not so much vs. the middle of the field. If those CBs can lock up Evans (who is also on many sit lists) and Godwin (who may be a tad banged up), maybe OJ gets his this week in a game they'll probably be needing to throw.

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On 9/26/2019 at 6:43 AM, kyoun1e said:

The "experts" are saying he's a universal sit this weekend. That said, haven't seen any real data on how good the LAR's are against TEs. I thought they were tough on the perimeter, but not so much vs. the middle of the field. If those CBs can lock up Evans (who is also on many sit lists) and Godwin (who may be a tad banged up), maybe OJ gets his this week in a game they'll probably be needing to throw.

I'm researching OJ Howard now as I was just sent a trade request for Dissly, who is a pleasant surprise. I can't believe I'm questioning holding Dissly > Howard for season long. Is Howard the play ROS. I see Footballguys have Howard at #9 going forward and Dissly at #13. Time to sell high on Dissly and buy low on Howard. I also picked up Olsen cheap early too. Lost Njoku. 

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I am going to grab Herndon as a stash/insurance. He’s on my WW. Just don’t trust O.J. Maybe this week will change my mind. We’ll see.

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On 9/29/2019 at 8:16 AM, BigBlue_RI said:

I am going to grab Herndon as a stash/insurance. He’s on my WW. Just don’t trust O.J. Maybe this week will change my mind. We’ll see.

I did the same, I love Herndon's potential!

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On 9/29/2019 at 2:59 AM, Team Smokin' said:

I'm researching OJ Howard now as I was just sent a trade request for Dissly, who is a pleasant surprise. I can't believe I'm questioning holding Dissly > Howard for season long. Is Howard the play ROS. I see Footballguys have Howard at #9 going forward and Dissly at #13. Time to sell high on Dissly and buy low on Howard. I also picked up Olsen cheap early too. Lost Njoku. 

Howard has all of 12 targets in 4 games.  I was researching him too as a potential buy low, but unless/until he starts seeing more than 3 balls a game, I'd say he's more in the avoid category.

 

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