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O. J Howard TE Alabama

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30 minutes ago, Milkman said:

Signing Brate and using OJ Howard less in the passing game does not help their team.

Having 2 good tight ends helps. The Brate deal is essentially 1 year. 

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9 minutes ago, Grahamburn said:

Blocking ability matters in football.

Yeah so you sign a great blocking TE for a fraction of the money you spent on Brate. TB spent money to actually get worse on offense. OJ Howard should be targeted 100+ times a year. 

Waste of money if you ask me. 

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3 minutes ago, flapgreen said:

Having 2 good tight ends helps. The Brate deal is essentially 1 year. 

1 year to much imo. They basically spent money to get worse on offense.  

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27 minutes ago, Milkman said:

Yeah so you sign a great blocking TE for a fraction of the money you spent on Brate. TB spent money to actually get worse on offense. OJ Howard should be targeted 100+ times a year. 

Waste of money if you ask me. 

Then you lose the receiving threat of Brate.  Like Andy said, The Bucs don't care if O.J. is targeted 100+ times a year.  He helps them on offense by being a receiving threat and a blocking threat.  They have the best of both worlds by keeping each of them.  All of that being said, I still think OJ is in for a big year as a receiver.

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1 minute ago, Grahamburn said:

Then you lose the receiving threat of Brate.  Like Andy said, The Bucs don't care if O.J. is targeted 100+ times a year.  He helps them on offense by being a receiving threat and a blocking threat.  They have the best of both worlds by keeping each of them.  All of that being said, I still think OJ is in for a big year as a receiver.

Nope. Not with Brate there. He kills OJ's upside. As soon as Winston got on the field in the preseason with Brate he threw it to him a bunch. Putting the ball in Brates hands while OJ is blocking can't possibly be optional for TB. 

 

TB paid millions to bottle Howard up. 

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TB is a terribly run organization so that kind of signing doesn't surprise me. 

15 million guaranteed Brate got.....I wonder what kind of defender or OL guy they could have got with that........then they could get OJ Howard the ball 100+ times a game too. Sounds like a win/win.

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This is already being hit upon, but Brate and Howard kill each other's upside. The Bucs are talking up Howard having a break out year, but Brate is still there and is still a security blanket. And he's (so far) still a better receiver than Howard. 

And yes, drafting a TE at 19 then paying a lot of money to another TE is stupid. 

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This guy is probably the most underrated player in fantasy right now.  Do we really think Cameron Brate is going to keep the ball out of OJ's hands.  Brate is just a guy, OJ is the next new hotness.  I predict a bit of a slow start while Winston is suspended but a massive back half of the season for OJ.  TEs take longer to adjust to the NFL, but he progressed throughout last season and given his physical tools, I see no reason that will stop.  Top 4 TE by the time the playoffs roll around IMO

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Took him very late as my 2nd TE.  Pick 123.Would love to see him blow up. 

Edited by flapgreen
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He's my favorite target - I'm a believer. If I don't get one of the obvious TEs, taking him over Doyle/Njoku/Ebron. FWIW Bob Henry's projections seem to like him.

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On 8/29/2018 at 9:34 AM, (HULK) said:

This guy is probably the most underrated player in fantasy right now.  Do we really think Cameron Brate is going to keep the ball out of OJ's hands.  Brate is just a guy, OJ is the next new hotness.  I predict a bit of a slow start while Winston is suspended but a massive back half of the season for OJ.  TEs take longer to adjust to the NFL, but he progressed throughout last season and given his physical tools, I see no reason that will stop.  Top 4 TE by the time the playoffs roll around IMO

I actually think he will do well with FItzpatrick as well.

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I waited waaaaay to long on TE in one league. I really want to like Howard and see his upsides but I'm still worried Brate and the other WRs will cap his upside. I think because of that I'll take a shot on people with more target share like Varnett and RSJ.

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On 8/29/2018 at 9:34 AM, (HULK) said:

This guy is probably the most underrated player in fantasy right now.  Do we really think Cameron Brate is going to keep the ball out of OJ's hands.  Brate is just a guy, OJ is the next new hotness.  I predict a bit of a slow start while Winston is suspended but a massive back half of the season for OJ.  TEs take longer to adjust to the NFL, but he progressed throughout last season and given his physical tools, I see no reason that will stop.  Top 4 TE by the time the playoffs roll around IMO

Hard to ignore the money they are paying Brate and the hype surrounding Godwin. With Evans still commanding targets, Winston would have to throw for 4500 & 30+ to feed all the mouths. I think a 2nd fantasy worthy player will emerge and Howard certainly could be it, but I can't feel confident about it. Still a key dynasty piece, but scary redraft guy. Not saying top 4 couldn't happen - it could. I just wouldn't bank on it.

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4 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

Hard to ignore the money they are paying Brate and the hype surrounding Godwin. With Evans still commanding targets, Winston would have to throw for 4500 & 30+ to feed all the mouths. I think a 2nd fantasy worthy player will emerge and Howard certainly could be it, but I can't feel confident about it. Still a key dynasty piece, but scary redraft guy. Not saying top 4 couldn't happen - it could. I just wouldn't bank on it.

The Brate contract is pretty much a 1 year deal. I understand wanting to have 2 good tight ends on the team. They didn't taken Howard that early to just be a blocker. 

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Just now, flapgreen said:

The Brate contract is pretty much a 1 year deal. I understand wanting to have 2 good tight ends on the team. They didn't taken Howard that early to just be a blocker. 

Like I said, still a good dynasty asset. I just don't know how to feel about his 2018 prospects. They aren't paying Brate all that money to give him 40 targets this season. I'm also a Godwin believer and expect a bounce back for Evans. 

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20 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

Like I said, still a good dynasty asset. I just don't know how to feel about his 2018 prospects. They aren't paying Brate all that money to give him 40 targets this season. I'm also a Godwin believer and expect a bounce back for Evans. 

Same

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On 8/29/2018 at 8:34 AM, (HULK) said:

This guy is probably the most underrated player in fantasy right now.  Do we really think Cameron Brate is going to keep the ball out of OJ's hands.  Brate is just a guy, OJ is the next new hotness.  I predict a bit of a slow start while Winston is suspended but a massive back half of the season for OJ.  TEs take longer to adjust to the NFL, but he progressed throughout last season and given his physical tools, I see no reason that will stop.  Top 4 TE by the time the playoffs roll around IMO

Brate kills his upside. He's a target for me to acquire later in the season in my deeper league.......as a throw in. He's unstartable all year imo. Shame because he looks like the best TE in the league sometimes. 

Edited by Milkman
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Winston loves Brate. Look at the first preseason game they played. I think Winston threw it to Brate 4 times in a quarter. Loves him. 

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6 minutes ago, Milkman said:

Brate kills his upside. He's a target for me to acquire later in the season in my deeper league.......as a throw in. He's unstartable all year imo. Shame because he looks like the best TE in the league sometimes. 

This is where I come out.

If I see a few quiet games from Howard, might try and make a move for him in dynasty.  

TE are always a long play in dynasty.  

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The problem is, unless his name is Gronkowski a TE is going to be down in the pecking order on his team. So you kind of have to pick your poison with everyone.

Meaning, while Howard may have to fight for attention - so does every other TE in the league. At which point, IMO, you should just draft talent and let the chips fall where they may at that spot in your roster. 

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If I am reading this correctly, the Brate contract is essentially 6 one year deals.  It looks like they can get out of his contract with no hit pretty easily.  Not that it makes a big difference this year, but I wouldn't let the commitment to Brate scare me off of Howard.

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On 8/31/2018 at 11:20 AM, Mene said:

If I am reading this correctly, the Brate contract is essentially 6 one year deals.  It looks like they can get out of his contract with no hit pretty easily.  Not that it makes a big difference this year, but I wouldn't let the commitment to Brate scare me off of Howard.

Basically, yes.  I have warmed up on OJ a tad longer term once I realized this, I thought the Brate contract was a lot bigger commitment.  However, every year they can renew that commitment and every time they do that's a big hit for him.  $7M isn't a throw-away number so as long as Brate's around they have plans to involve him, and that's going to cap Howard.  Plus, and I've said this for a long time now, I don't want my TE to be a good blocker.  Yes he gets a lot more snaps but many of those are faux snaps if he's staying in to block a lot or they are designated run plays.  All I care about are routes run and I don't think Howard's going to get the volume other, far cheaper, TE's will.

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On 8/31/2018 at 10:20 AM, Mene said:

If I am reading this correctly, the Brate contract is essentially 6 one year deals.  It looks like they can get out of his contract with no hit pretty easily.  Not that it makes a big difference this year, but I wouldn't let the commitment to Brate scare me off of Howard.

It's pretty wacky that the contract says $18M guaranteed when in reality only $7M is guaranteed. But yeah, you appear to be reading that correctly. 

23 minutes ago, Hankmoody said:

Basically, yes.  I have warmed up on OJ a tad longer term once I realized this, I thought the Brate contract was a lot bigger commitment.  However, every year they can renew that commitment and every time they do that's a big hit for him.  $7M isn't a throw-away number so as long as Brate's around they have plans to involve him, and that's going to cap Howard.  Plus, and I've said this for a long time now, I don't want my TE to be a good blocker.  Yes he gets a lot more snaps but many of those are faux snaps if he's staying in to block a lot or they are designated run plays.  All I care about are routes run and I don't think Howard's going to get the volume other, far cheaper, TE's will.

On the bolded, are you just speaking about this season or do you think Howard will always get a low volume? Who do you like better long term that is cheaper in dynasty?

I value him about evenly with Njoku, but struggle to find anyone else lower on the list that I'd be more excited about owning.

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4 hours ago, FF Ninja said:

On the bolded, are you just speaking about this season or do you think Howard will always get a low volume? Who do you like better long term that is cheaper in dynasty?

I value him about evenly with Njoku, but struggle to find anyone else lower on the list that I'd be more excited about owning.

As long as they are paying another non-blocker $7M a year.  The Brate contract is mostly year-to-year so I do see some light at the end of the tunnel for him but most owners aren't acknowledging or being honest with themselves about the risk Brate's presence brings to Howard's ceiling. 

Cheaper TE's, where do I start - Kittle, Gesicki, Burton (maybe not cheaper?), Goedert, Reed, RSJ.  And that's all straight up.  At their current prices I'd take a bunch more relative to Howard's price as well - gimmie Hooper for a 3rd and I'll spend the 1st on a RB.  I realize things change, and TBB could go a different direction later, but it's long been a strategy of mine to let those things play out and happily have to pay more for more known return than overspend and get nothing.  I take a ton of calculated gambles already, but they are all on things/guys I believe in.  I think it's silly to bet against something the team just explicitly decided to do.

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1 minute ago, Hankmoody said:

As long as they are paying another non-blocker $7M a year.  The Brate contract is mostly year-to-year so I do see some light at the end of the tunnel for him but most owners aren't acknowledging or being honest with themselves about the risk Brate's presence brings to Howard's ceiling. 

Cheaper TE's, where do I start - Kittle, Gesicki, Burton (maybe not cheaper?), Goedert, Reed, RSJ.  And that's all straight up.  At their current prices I'd take a bunch more relative to Howard's price as well - gimmie Hooper for a 3rd and I'll spend the 1st on a RB.  I realize things change, and TBB could go a different direction later, but it's long been a strategy of mine to let those things play out and happily have to pay more for more known return than overspend and get nothing.  I take a ton of calculated gambles already, but they are all on things/guys I believe in.  I think it's silly to bet against something the team just explicitly decided to do.

I'm thinking there might be some confusion. You really like all of those guys' long term outlooks better than Howard's? I totally get not wanting to spend the startup money on Howard and taking a lesser talent with better near term upside (which is what I think you were talking about), but I don't see how you can be more optimistic about their long term outlooks than Howard's. Howard already showed not just NFL ability, but play making ability. We haven't seen that from most of those people. Reed is seemingly one concussion away from retirement and he's 4.5 years older. Goedert and Gesicki haven't played an NFL down and were much lower draft picks. I like Kittle but his value is more from his situation than from being a stalwart at the position. Burton is a similar cost to OJ (I think) and we don't really know what he's capable of (and Shaheen is around to be his Brate). RSJ... nah, but he's cheap so I'll let that slide.

As for paying more for a known return vs. overspending and getting nothing... if Howard takes the next step this season, I doubt you can pry him away from the owner. And while you might overspend compared to 2018 production if you were to acquire him this year, I think we've seen enough to know you wouldn't be "getting nothing" from him.

In case you're wondering, no, I did not spend a 1st on him last year. I'm not overly optimistic about his 2018, but I do really like his upside and would like to acquire him or Njoku before it is too late.

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3 hours ago, FF Ninja said:

I'm thinking there might be some confusion. You really like all of those guys' long term outlooks better than Howard's? I totally get not wanting to spend the startup money on Howard and taking a lesser talent with better near term upside (which is what I think you were talking about), but I don't see how you can be more optimistic about their long term outlooks than Howard's. Howard already showed not just NFL ability, but play making ability. We haven't seen that from most of those people. Reed is seemingly one concussion away from retirement and he's 4.5 years older. Goedert and Gesicki haven't played an NFL down and were much lower draft picks. I like Kittle but his value is more from his situation than from being a stalwart at the position. Burton is a similar cost to OJ (I think) and we don't really know what he's capable of (and Shaheen is around to be his Brate). RSJ... nah, but he's cheap so I'll let that slide.

As for paying more for a known return vs. overspending and getting nothing... if Howard takes the next step this season, I doubt you can pry him away from the owner. And while you might overspend compared to 2018 production if you were to acquire him this year, I think we've seen enough to know you wouldn't be "getting nothing" from him.

In case you're wondering, no, I did not spend a 1st on him last year. I'm not overly optimistic about his 2018, but I do really like his upside and would like to acquire him or Njoku before it is too late.

I'm hardly confused.  For every case you make to fit your narrative I can make a different case to fit mine.  As long as Brate is around I don't want Howard at his price.  I don't care about his talent, or what he's shown his potential to be.  I care about what the team is saying - that it's important enough to pay Brate $7M to keep him around so they can involve him in the offense.  It speaks to their philosophical beliefs - that they don't want one primary TE.  It's not often that tigers change their stripes and I think even if Brate goes away they would just bring someone else in.  If that changes I'll change my tune.  Until it does I won't. 

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1 hour ago, Hankmoody said:

I'm hardly confused.  For every case you make to fit your narrative I can make a different case to fit mine.  As long as Brate is around I don't want Howard at his price.  I don't care about his talent, or what he's shown his potential to be.  I care about what the team is saying - that it's important enough to pay Brate $7M to keep him around so they can involve him in the offense.  It speaks to their philosophical beliefs - that they don't want one primary TE.  It's not often that tigers change their stripes and I think even if Brate goes away they would just bring someone else in.  If that changes I'll change my tune.  Until it does I won't. 

So that's a yes? You really like the long term outlook of each of those guys better than Howard because... Brate? You even said yourself that you recognize it's essentially a 1-year deal. And yet you still prefer lesser talents or older, injury prone players long-term? Just doesn't make sense.

Again, if you're saying you'd rather save those startup dollars and invest elsewhere that's fine, but the question was if you prefer them straight up. 

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O.J. Howard played 43 snaps (65%) and Cameron Brate only played 24 snaps (36%) in week one. 

 

Howard had 2 targets, 2 catches, and 54 yards receiving.

Brate had 2 targets, 0 catches, and 0 yards receiving. 

 

I'm trying to find statistics on "routes run" but haven't had any luck yet. Either way I think Howard playing almost twice the snaps and being infintely more productive in week 1 is notable. 

 

If DeSean Jackson is out (now looking like he may have participated in practice in some fashion), I could see the Bucs using Howard more as a vertical threat. If he has another good game he'll likely become a pretty hot commodity...

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24 minutes ago, The Finist said:

OJ is looking good but will the volume come?  And if it does, can he break into the Ertz, Kelce, Gronk tier at 23 yo?

wondering the same thing. I'm of the mindset that now may be the last window to buy low on this guy

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1 hour ago, The Finist said:

OJ is looking good but will the volume come?  And if it does, can he break into the Ertz, Kelce, Gronk tier at 23 yo?

The talent is there, in dynasty I'm all over him. 

In redraft I might actually sell. Brate is still there and Winston probably starts when he returns (although Fitz is doing awesome). I think oj falls a bit when Winston returns. 

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Given how many more snaps Howard plays than Brate at this point, I don't think the QB switch would be a bad thing for him.  I think Winston likes throwing to TEs, and if Howard is out there as often as he has been, he's going to see more targets than he does with Fitz.  Brate is a solid guy, but Howard has the talent to be a difference maker.

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His career ypc at this point is gronkian.  Can he keep it in the same ballpark with more volume?  I just hope we get to see.  He looks half WR - half TE to me with his size and the way he moves.  

 

As for this week, has Pitt had a hard time covering TEs lately or was that just Travis Kelce?

Edited by The Finist

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In redraft I am not really worried about Brate because Howard is the greater talent.

 

Week one

Howard 43 offensive snaps (65%) 2 targets 2 receptions 54 yards

Brate 24 offensive snaps (36%) 2 targets 0 receptions 

 

Week two

Howard 46 offensive snaps (79%) 4 targets 3 receptions 96 yards 1 TD

Brate 14 offensive snaps (24%) 0 targets 0 receptions 

Hell in week 3 TE Auclair (whoever he is) had 17 offensive snaps which was slightly more than Brate had.

 

Fitzpatrick may be the better QB. I am not sure if Winston starts coming off suspension or not. Hard to bench Fitzpatrick with the way he has been playing so far. Even so I still expect Howard to be the main weapon from the TE position if he does.

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I don’t think there’s another TE in the league than can catch an intermediate pass in the middle of the field and turn the corner to house it for like 60 yards. Dude is a Clydesdale. 

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On 9/13/2018 at 2:04 PM, mjb03003 said:

O.J. Howard played 43 snaps (65%) and Cameron Brate only played 24 snaps (36%) in week one. 

Howard had 2 targets, 2 catches, and 54 yards receiving.

Brate had 2 targets, 0 catches, and 0 yards receiving. 

I'm trying to find statistics on "routes run" but haven't had any luck yet. Either way I think Howard playing almost twice the snaps and being infintely more productive in week 1 is notable. 

I found this on twitter:

Buccaneers TE routes run in Week 1 O.J. Howard 47% Cameron Brate 41% Howard stayed in to block on 4 passing plays. Zero pass blocking snaps for Brate.

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On 9/19/2018 at 11:38 AM, FF Ninja said:

I found this on twitter:

Buccaneers TE routes run in Week 1 O.J. Howard 47% Cameron Brate 41% Howard stayed in to block on 4 passing plays. Zero pass blocking snaps for Brate.

Thanks for this. I'd love to see week 2 as well. Seems like the playing time and targest skewed even more in favor of Howard so I assume the routes run did as well. 

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3 minutes ago, mjb03003 said:

Thanks for this. I'd love to see week 2 as well. Seems like the playing time and targest skewed even more in favor of Howard so I assume the routes run did as well. 

I read that his routes didn't increase much in week 2 although I could not find a hard number. The team as a whole played fewer snaps, but Howard's % increased from 65% to 79%. Hard to read too much into one game, but it is at least a positive trend for his usage.

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On 9/19/2018 at 10:21 AM, The Finist said:

His career ypc at this point is gronkian.  Can he keep it in the same ballpark with more volume?  I just hope we get to see.  He looks half WR - half TE to me with his size and the way he moves.  

 

As for this week, has Pitt had a hard time covering TEs lately or was that just Travis Kelce?

And as it is now defenses can't commit defenders specifically to OJ like they can Gronk.  That's why his YPC is so high.  He's too fast for LB's and too big for safeties, and when there's only his guy in the area it's difficult to get him on the ground right at the catch point.

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On 9/19/2018 at 9:25 AM, Biabreakable said:

In redraft I am not really worried about Brate because Howard is the greater talent.

 

Week one

Howard 43 offensive snaps (65%) 2 targets 2 receptions 54 yards

Brate 24 offensive snaps (36%) 2 targets 0 receptions 

 

Week two

Howard 46 offensive snaps (79%) 4 targets 3 receptions 96 yards 1 TD

Brate 14 offensive snaps (24%) 0 targets 0 receptions 

Hell in week 3 TE Auclair (whoever he is) had 17 offensive snaps which was slightly more than Brate had.

 

Fitzpatrick may be the better QB. I am not sure if Winston starts coming off suspension or not. Hard to bench Fitzpatrick with the way he has been playing so far. Even so I still expect Howard to be the main weapon from the TE position if he does.

This the big development, Brate appears to be out of the picture.

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On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 8:15 AM, SaintsInDome2006 said:

This the big development, Brate appears to be out of the picture.

As long as Winston doesn't start it might continue. If Winston is put back into the starting lineup it'll revert back to Brate. Winston loves Brate.

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Doyle is out and is week to week which usually means a multi week absence.  I think he just droppable.  If ebron continues to perform I think doyle has a relatively limited ceiling.  Bottom line Doyle ain't winning you a title, he might not lose you one either but OJ' output potential any given week is so much higher because he gets chunk yardage.

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On 9/19/2018 at 10:21 AM, The Finist said:

His career ypc at this point is gronkian.  Can he keep it in the same ballpark with more volume?  I just hope we get to see.  He looks half WR - half TE to me with his size and the way he moves.  

 

As for this week, has Pitt had a hard time covering TEs lately or was that just Travis Kelce?

His ypc is why I drafted him as my #1 TE this season. Plus he tied for the team lead with 6 TDs in his rookie season in only 14 games. Brate will certainly be involved too, but OJ has elite skills for a move TE that actually translate on the field. He is the real deal.

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