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RB Dalvin Cook, Free Agent (7 Viewers)

You guys be cool. Mavis - you've created a reputation here where some people would rather avoid a discussion. You can change that by being way less confrontational. But it takes a while. Mavis is apparently trying. Let's see if you can do it. Please let's move on. 

 
Biabreakable said:
:yawn:        Its almost like all of this stuff wasn't discussed extensively a couple of months ago. Piling on...

Dalvin Cook: When character concerns aren’t concerning
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Thanks Biabreakable! As someone who hasn't really been in this thread much aside from this month, I don't know what's been discussed extensively a couple of months ago. I know I can go back and read 15 pages of discussion on this guy, but to be honest my time is limited and sometimes it's great when someone more versed in a thread like you can point a more uninformed person like myself to a few select links or posts that would answer my question.

On a side note, it'd be nice to see an unbiased source discuss his character concerns.This was written two days ago by a self described "diehard Vikings fan." Of course it's going to paint a good picture.

Are there any pro-Viking websites that discussed this before the draft? If he went to Green Bay as many mocked him to be Round 1, would this website write an equally favorable piece? They'd likely not care to write anything, but I'm curious if there's anything pro-Viking pre-draft or anything unaffiliated with any team post-draft that we could add to the discussion. I couldn't find anything in a google search.

I think we can speculate until the cows come home, and it won't do us any good. Bottom line is he has a history that was described by Matthew Coller, Vikings analyst for 1500ESPN, as "something that isn’t a far cry from Joe Mixon’s on-camera punch." Something to watch and adjust on a draft board accordingly for each individual person. Some people this won't affect their drafting at all and for others it does. That's the beauty of fantasy football; there is no right way to do something. From a strictly NFL talent stand point he obviously has a lot of things we like to see and the sky's the limit. The trick is what's between the ears. 

Glad to have at least discussed that there is a history there and for some it may be a concern. Others, I get it, this is your guy and you're all in. Good luck to everyone however you decide to grade Cook for your upcoming drafts! 

 
Doubledown1313 said:
Cook's legal issues date back to his time at Miami Central High School: The Orlando Sentinel reported that Cook was arrested as a juvenile and charged with robbery in 2009, though prosecutors later dropped the case. He also was arrested a year later and charged with firing a weapon and possession of a weapon at an event on school property. Those chargers were either dropped or abandoned, the newspaper reported.

Cook was charged with criminal mischief in June 2014 after he was one of several players involved in an alleged shooting with a BB gun that caused property damage. Cook was given pretrial intervention. Sports Illustrated reported that Cook also was issued a citation in July 2014 for a violation of animal care after he allegedly left three pit bull puppies chained up by the neck outside.

In July 2015, a woman accused Cook of punching her while outside of a Tallahassee bar. He was charged with misdemeanor battery and suspended indefinitely from the football team. He was found not guilty -- the jury delivered the verdict in less than 25 minutes after a daylong trial -- and immediately reinstated to the team.

Though Cook has no convictions on his record, the multiple charges and brushes with the law will give NFL teams pause. 
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No one is unbiased but here is my take on his character risk.

There is a risk and people should factor that into his value, as the Vikings themselves did. There is little doubt that without the character risk he would have been a first round pick.  So value him where he is--a highly regarded second round RB.  If you give more weight to upside than floor, then value him slightly higher.

Regarding specifics, I personally see the risk as pretty limited for the following reasons:

1. He has never actually been convicted of anything. People get charged with things all the time, especially young, black men. The most serious charge was the assault and it took a jury 25 minutes to acquit--that's pretty telling.

2. The dog issue is a non-issue in my book.  He didn't engage in dog fighting or actual harm to the animals.  We don't know how long the dogs were chained up outside but that is not at all unusual behavior.

3. A bb gun? Really? That's kid play and meaningless.

4. The robbery sounds concerning but again, not convicted.

What I take from all of this is that he ran with the wrong crowd but didn't do anything bad himself.  He did put himself in some situations that could have gone bad, which shows poor judgement.  But I also think some of those charges may not have been brought against a white, middle class kid.  And I put a lot of weight on the fact that no charges ever stuck.

 
az_prof said:
No one is unbiased but here is my take on his character risk.

There is a risk and people should factor that into his value, as the Vikings themselves did. There is little doubt that without the character risk he would have been a first round pick.  So value him where he is--a highly regarded second round RB.  If you give more weight to upside than floor, then value him slightly higher.

Regarding specifics, I personally see the risk as pretty limited for the following reasons:

1. He has never actually been convicted of anything. People get charged with things all the time, especially young, black men. The most serious charge was the assault and it took a jury 25 minutes to acquit--that's pretty telling.

2. The dog issue is a non-issue in my book.  He didn't engage in dog fighting or actual harm to the animals.  We don't know how long the dogs were chained up outside but that is not at all unusual behavior.

3. A bb gun? Really? That's kid play and meaningless.

4. The robbery sounds concerning but again, not convicted.

What I take from all of this is that he ran with the wrong crowd but didn't do anything bad himself.  He did put himself in some situations that could have gone bad, which shows poor judgement.  But I also think some of those charges may not have been brought against a white, middle class kid.  And I put a lot of weight on the fact that no charges ever stuck.
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I am curious about the charge of firing a weapon at a school event. Any school I know of, that would be an automatic expulsion. So I wonder if the investigation clearly showed he was not the person that had and fired the weapon or if he got some kind of special treatment because of his football skill. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
You guys be cool. Mavis - you've created a reputation here where some people would rather avoid a discussion. You can change that by being way less confrontational. But it takes a while. Mavis is apparently trying. Let's see if you can do it. Please let's move on. 
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:thumbup:

The whole purpose of having this discussion forum revolving around Dalvin Cook is his fantasy appeal and his potential on-field value in term of dynasty and redraft formats.  For the record, I did draft him at 1.05 in my 12-teams PPR dynasty league.  Based on everything I have read about him is that he's tailor-made for Vikings' OC Pat Shumur's west-coast offense.   And that's why Vikings made him as first draft selection this year. 

 
In the link above that I posted you hear the other side of the character issues from his coaches who say he is a good team mate and team leader. Very high work ethic as a football player. I think these things offset some of the other things somewhat.

Since he was drafted by the Vikings Xavier Rhodes and others have taken Cook under their wing. I think he has positive team mates to associate with and hopefully keep him out of trouble.

 
Aznflyer14 said:
:thumbup:

The whole purpose of having this discussion forum revolving around Dalvin Cook is his fantasy appeal and his potential on-field value in term of dynasty and redraft formats.  For the record, I did draft him at 1.05 in my 12-teams PPR dynasty league.  Based on everything I have read about him is that he's tailor-made for Vikings' OC Pat Shumur's west-coast offense.   And that's why Vikings made him as first draft selection this year. 
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Don't forget the Vikes jumped two spots ahead of Philly to draft him. They believed Philly was going to get him and they moved to get the guy they wanted. Says a lot in my mind.

Tex

 
Biabreakable said:
In the link above that I posted you hear the other side of the character issues from his coaches who say he is a good team mate and team leader. Very high work ethic as a football player. I think these things offset some of the other things somewhat.

Since he was drafted by the Vikings Xavier Rhodes and others have taken Cook under their wing. I think he has positive team mates to associate with and hopefully keep him out of trouble.
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Pleasure boat days are over

 
Snorkelson said:
Pleasure boat days are over
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Yeah that was a long time ago.

I am concerned about DUI issues with the Vikings as the DC certainly not setting the example there. Then them brining in Floyd.

I haven't heard anything about Cook having a drinking problem though. Skol.

 
Biabreakable said:
Yeah that was a long time ago.

I am concerned about DUI issues with the Vikings as the DC certainly not setting the example there. Then them brining in Floyd.

I haven't heard anything about Cook having a drinking problem though. Skol.
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I've been watching that Documentary on Florida St. and I'm more confident then ever that Cook will be fine. His team mates constantly spoke about him being their mentor and roll model. The coaches everyone spoke so highly of him then when you see how he carries himself it's off the charts!

I have ZERO worries about Cook's future decision making. He's still #1 on my board.

Tex

 
az_prof said:
1. He has never actually been convicted of anything. People get charged with things all the time, especially young, black men. The most serious charge was the assault and it took a jury 25 minutes to acquit--that's pretty telling.
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....a Tallahassee jury in a trail where the star of the football team was the defendant (and kicked off the team).

I'm not saying he was guilty (I have no idea at all) but just like "young black men" get falsely accused all the time, star football players get away with a lot in college football towns all the time.

 
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From Jaylen Samuels: The Swiss Army Knife of the ACC:

I wanted to determine: Is Jaylen Samuels the most unique “all-purpose” player in modern ACC history*?

...I selected 6 categories with which to analyze the 341 players that met the criteria: rushing yards per game, rushing yards per attempt, rushing touchdowns, receiving yards per game, receiving yards per attempt, and receiving touchdowns. Using these 6 categories, my goal was to calculate how much of a difference there was between any given player and the player that most resembled them (this is a fairly common statistical method called nearest neighbor search).

Basically, who is the most similar player and just how similar are they. I didn’t allow players to match with themselves from a different year. I made sure to weight the 6 categories equally, so a big difference in rushing yards per game was equivalent to a comparable difference in rushing touchdowns...

Jaylen finished the analysis ranked as the 3rd most unique player in modern ACC history (top 1%). The only 2 players ahead of him were Clinton Lynch of Georgia Tech and Dalvin Cook of Florida State, both last year.
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I am a NC State :homer:   so I was reading this to read about Samuels, but thought Cook fans might be interested.

 
Biabreakable said:
Vikings Shift to Zone Running Could Pay Dividends
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Thanks for the link, which I found it to be a very good read.  I particularly like the statement from this article. 

“We are running the same thing,” Cook said, referencing the similarities between the Florida State and Minnesota Vikings offense. “Zone, inside zone, outside zone, utilizing me to catch the football.”

Ethan Young with OaSIS Intel and Inside the Pylon summarized why Cook is such a great fit for a zone-running scheme:

Dalvin Cook is the full package of what you look for in an open field zone back. He is a patient runner, who wins with slow play followed by stellar feet and lightning change of direction skills. He sets up his moves well too, and has great vision to boot. His natural feel as a runner is close to unparalleled at times, and that is vital to bring together that skillset in zone heavy scheme.
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The fact that the Vikings are installing a run block scheme similar to Florida State is another sign that Cook is going to get a lot of run.

 
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az_prof said:
The fact that the Vikings are installing a run block scheme similar to Florida State is another sign that Cook is going to get a lot of run.
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I knew they drafted him to be the face and the engine of the franchise and quick...but didnt think even this quick. He is going to be their centerpiece and it starts week 1. I was high on Murray even after they drafted Cook and with his ankle injury because of Zimmer and his style, but it appears they really want to make it about Cook from everything I read and watched.

He is my clear cut #2 rookie and could very well be the best one this year. Since coming to this thread I have seen so many things that made me love this kid.

 
I was skeptical about his usage for this season so I was fading him in redraft.

 But I am seriously thinking about grabbing him mid rounds now as my rb2. He's moving up pretty high in that tier of RBS for me.....

 
cloppbeast said:
we need some non-fanboys in here. :yawn:
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I have talked myself into becoming a fan. We cant deny the stuff we have been hearing is all good and with the injuries to Murray it makes him likely to be ahead of him in learning the offense. 

 
Mavis said:
I have talked myself into becoming a fan. We cant deny the stuff we have been hearing is all good and with the injuries to Murray it makes him likely to be ahead of him in learning the offense. 
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Yeah, me too. Originally I worried about Murray. Now, not so much. I get the feeling Cook'll have a 2nd-3rd round ADP in August.

I'd like to hear from some nay-sayers to talk me down a little.

 
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cloppbeast said:
we need some non-fanboys in here. :yawn:
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One negative to bring up is pass blocking. I think this is one of cooks draw backs at the moment. Murray is a very good pass blocker so this could be something to think about. DJ was in this same boat and didn't see much playing time until week 12 due to his pass blocking but injuries forced Cardinals hand. On the other hand Cook is a great receiver so he could run routes instead of blocking.

 
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Weebs210 said:
One negative to bring up is pass blocking. I think this is one of cooks draw backs at the moment. Murray is a very good pass blocker so this could be something to think about. DJ was in this same boat and didn't see much playing time until week 12 due to his pass blocking but injuries forced Cardinals hand. On the other hand Cook is a great receiver so he could run routes instead of blocking.
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errrr pretty sure he wasnt on the field as much because CJ?K was playing out of his mind, and Arians has a reputation for not handing a rookie the keys to anything

 
David Johnson was still learning how to run between the tackles early on in his rookie season. I don't think the problem was pass protection as much as this.

Cook needs to get better at pass protection no doubt. But he is getting all the reps right now to work on that. I think he is more of a receiving threat anyways and the Vikings should be using him in that way more often than asking him to pass protect.

Of course all RB need to protect at times and the Vikings offensive line needs help in that area even after the changes they have made. I still see Murray filling in for these types of situations similar to Matt Asiata in the past.

 
I wouldn't worry too much about pass blocking. If Cook is a better runner/receiver than Murray and McKinnon, then he will get plenty of touches. Rich Hribar recently tweeted the % that NFL backs pass block and it's much much less than one might think. Doug Martin, Frank Gore and J Stewart have about the highest longterm averages of any NFL RBs at around 30% of passing plays. Zeke, DJ, Bell, Gurley, Howard and Gordon were all around 15%. 

 
Ilov80s said:
I wouldn't worry too much about pass blocking. If Cook is a better runner/receiver than Murray and McKinnon, then he will get plenty of touches. Rich Hribar recently tweeted the % that NFL backs pass block and it's much much less than one might think. Doug Martin, Frank Gore and J Stewart have about the highest longterm averages of any NFL RBs at around 30% of passing plays. Zeke, DJ, Bell, Gurley, Howard and Gordon were all around 15%. 
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While I appreciate this the Vikings need for a RB who can block is higher than a lot of other teams right now because of their poor pass blocking offensive line.

It is always a cat and mouse game between the offense and defense. If the defense can find a weakness they will try to exploit it by bringing the blitz more. If the QB can burn the defense when they blitz then they will do it less.

I think Cook is best used as a receiver and Bradford has shown he can get the ball out fast, so maybe it isn't that big of an issue. The Vikings offensive line is not Dallas or Pittsburgh though.

Out of curiosity how often did the Vikings RB block? I would expect this to be more than most because Kyle Rudolph is really terrible at it. David Morgan will get this assignment a lot similar to RHett Ellison in the past, but when the Vikings do not have 2 TE on the field the RB will need to check for the blitz more.

 
As

Biabreakable said:
While I appreciate this the Vikings need for a RB who can block is higher than a lot of other teams right now because of their poor pass blocking offensive line.

It is always a cat and mouse game between the offense and defense. If the defense can find a weakness they will try to exploit it by bringing the blitz more. If the QB can burn the defense when they blitz then they will do it less.

I think Cook is best used as a receiver and Bradford has shown he can get the ball out fast, so maybe it isn't that big of an issue. The Vikings offensive line is not Dallas or Pittsburgh though.

Out of curiosity how often did the Vikings RB block? I would expect this to be more than most because Kyle Rudolph is really terrible at it. David Morgan will get this assignment a lot similar to RHett Ellison in the past, but when the Vikings do not have 2 TE on the field the RB will need to check for the blitz more.
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Asiata has been at the upper end at 29%. Mckinonn in the lower range (19%) near Riddick, Duke and Perkins.

 
Cook should be used as a receiver more so I would guess based on the above data something like 19% similar to McKinnon (who is not good at pass protection btw).

Murray still has a role similar to Asiata and if Cook is doing as well as I think he will, we will likely hear Vikings fans complaining about why Murray is on the field some times, likely longer down a distance situations, or other situations where the Vikings are expecting a higher chance of the blitz and need the RB to cover the pass protection assignment.

IIRC Teddy Bridgewater made teams pay for the blitz more than Sam Bradford.

 
Faust said:
Dalvin Cook: The Vikings Rookie Is For Real
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MANKATO, Minn. — You don’t need to be Ron Wolf to see what’s happening. On one play, Dalvin Cook gets skinny inside the hole and makes three defenders miss without covering more than five yards. On another, he’s split left, and his speed commands enough respect from the defense to clear out space underneath for everyone else.

And so you have color to what you’ll hear plenty around here: That job Latavius Murray signed up for in March? It’s already gone.

Great Article!

Tex

 
Shurmur's 'State of the Offensive Line' Address

From the beginning of this he is asked first about his perspective on using multiple RB from the Eagles. 

Then asked specifically about Dalvin Cook in pass protection, he says Cook has done a good job.I don't see any elements of RB play that he can't be very good at, and pass protection is one of them.

Then asked if he can trust Cook in those types of situations, he says absolutely. He has a great background in it. He has a great foundation coming from Florida State. He understands the big picture. He understands our terminology as far as who we are blocking and he has a real good feel for the game. 

Most of the rest of this is talk about the offensive line. 

 
The issue with Cook is/was not talent...it is if his head is screwed on straight...that is why his draft stock slipped...if he has matured he will be a very good RB...there should be little doubt about the talent...

 
Boston said:
The issue with Cook is/was not talent...it is if his head is screwed on straight...that is why his draft stock slipped...if he has matured he will be a very good RB...there should be little doubt about the talent...
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I like Cook but testing so poorly would seem to attest to a lack of talent

 
SayWhat? said:
Then it may have seemed as though Jerry Rice had a lack of talent heading into the NFL as well, no?
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Perhaps. Other than his slow 40 I don't remember his other test results and whether he tested as poorly as Cook across the board. It's really hard to say if Cook has Rice's other worldly work ethic or perfect team circumstance to get the most from what talent he has. 

 
Everything about Cook so far this offseason has been been pretty good, but I think Murray is there for a reason.  Never a fan of Cook but if they are suiting their offense to his skill-set then he may just be the best producing rookie this year with their limited offense.  If you look at all the other rookies, Mixon's team still goes through AJ Green and Eifert I think.  The Panthers are still a throw first team with McCaffrey as a compliment to that.  Fournette likely is going to be the mainstay there, but at least I haven't heard rumblings of them using him a lot yet.  But if people think it's going to Bradford controlling it, I think that's a mistake.  The offense is likely to be centered around the run game.  

 
As usual, a lot of people put too much emphasis on tests. They are an evaluation tool. Rice didn't stand out. I remember way back in the day when they ran skills competitions of current NFLers and Thurman Thomas looked horrible. I remember when LeSean McCoy tested out too slow.  They are indicators (mostly physical) but they don't capture everything it takes to be a good NFL player. Things like just instintively reacting, balance, etc. come into play.

 
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