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RB Dalvin Cook, Free Agent (4 Viewers)

Biabreakable said:
You can't back up you claim with facts. I get it. So now shifting to talking about me,,,

I am not trying to sell anything. Just sharing my perspective about a team I follow more closely than anyone else.

BTW see LeVeon Bell as far as your claim that teams don't change their scheme to fit a 2nd round RB.
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This isn't about me and you, this is about how Dalvin Cook will do. In redraft, that means this year.

You'r claiming the Vikings are rebuilding their offense for a rookie running back in his first training camp. Not really comparable to the Steeler's and Le'Veon Bell, who has thoroughly proved himself.

 
cloppbeast said:
Fan-boys will say anything, so I take everything with a grain of salt.

You're claiming the Vikings are tailoring this offense for a second round pick. Sounds dubious. You sound like a salesman. 

The coach seems genuinely disappointed that Murray isn't out there.
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Bucky Brooks did a tour of NFL training camps and this is what he had to say on Dalvin Cook just a few days ago after his training camp visit:

When asked what he thought on his Vikings tour he started by saying, 'It's all about Dalvin Cook". He said that Latavius may only touch the ball when Cook needs a breather. He went on to say they were lining him up all over, in the slot, out wide, etc, etc. He mentioned that everything you thought about him in the pre-draft process, before a variety of stuff dinged his value, was legit and that a few people he spoke with on the Vikings said they were ok with Peterson leaving because Cook allowed them to run an offense more suited to Bradford and the style of offense they want to run.

So unless Bucky is out hard selling for Cook this all kind of sounded like the offense is in fact being tailored to Cook.

 
Andy Dufresne said:
Well, I think you're just arguing semantics and that's not normally too productive.

Anyway, people seem to state stuff like the bolded like it's a bad thing.

Murray's role, if he has one, is going to be a complimentary one. Probably in short yardage situations. It's been my experience that if your starter takes a high number of carries, his end of year totals look high, but his effectiveness wears down as the season progresses - and is often at low ebb come fantasy playoff time. In short, I would HOPE Murray and McKinnon play a role. 
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:goodposting:  

 
Andy Dufresne said:
Well, I think you're just arguing semantics and that's not normally too productive.

Anyway, people seem to state stuff like the bolded like it's a bad thing.

Murray's role, if he has one, is going to be a complimentary one. Probably in short yardage situations. It's been my experience that if your starter takes a high number of carries, his end of year totals look high, but his effectiveness wears down as the season progresses - and is often at low ebb come fantasy playoff time. In short, I would HOPE Murray and McKinnon play a role. 
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From what I have been reading lately they are lining up McKinnon as a slot receiver too, not just Cook.

They were doing some of this last season as well, so perhaps not technically a change just because of Cook, but I get the sense that they plan to do this more now than previously. Shurmur the OC now to start the season, not Norv Turner. There will be some changes with a full install from the new OC.

The Vikings have mixed zone and man blocking schemes before, but from the sound of things they are shifting ore towards zone blocking and more specifically the outside zone because that is one of Cooks favorite plays. I doubt they would be doing this if it wasn't because of Cook.

Remains to be seen how well the offensive line executes these types of runs and other plays they have installed because of Cook.

 
cloppbeast said:
Extremely dubious.

If the Vikings build an offense around Cook, it will be the first time a team has done so with a rookie second round running back.
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From the previous 20 drafts, these guys come to mind as being the centerpieces of their offenses as second round rookie RBs:

  • Lacy
  • Forte
  • MJD
  • Bell
  • Portis
  • Dillon
Not sure if I missed any others, particularly if we were to consider those who excelled in later seasons but did not as rookies due to injury.

IMO Cook's talent is on par with this group. YMMV

 
cloppbeast said:
I don't think I want to post in this thread anymore. A lot of fan-boys here.
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At least we can discuss things without calling other people derogatory things like "fan-boy" whatever that is supposed to mean.

You started this whole thing off by saying my opinion was dubious then have completely backpedaled from there.

 
Just Win Baby said:
From the previous 20 drafts, these guys come to mind as being the centerpieces of their offenses as second round rookie RBs:

  • Lacy
  • Forte
  • MJD
  • Bell
  • Portis
  • Dillon
Not sure if I missed any others, particularly if we were to consider those who excelled in later seasons but did not as rookies due to injury.

IMO Cook's talent is on par with this group. YMMV
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So, were the blocking schemes for any of these running-backs altered in their first training camp to better suit them, or the entire offense? I doubt it.

 
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cloppbeast said:
So, were the blocking schemes for any of these running-backs altered in their first training camp to better suit them, or the entire offense? I doubt it.
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I don't know, but I doubt it. I'm not sure if you realize, that actually goes against your stance here.

If, in fact, none of those I identified had the blocking schemes changed for them, and we know the Vikings are changing their blocking scheme to use more zone blocking because it better suits Cook, then they are arguably making an even bigger commitment to him than the teams of those other players did to them. :shrug:  

 
cloppbeast said:
So, were the blocking schemes for any of these running-backs altered in their first training camp to better suit them, or the entire offense? I doubt it.
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LINK

With the hire of Jack Bicknell Jr. in 2013, the team began to shift from its long-standing philosophy of a power running scheme – dominated by Power O – to implementing zone blocking concepts.
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Bell was drafted in 2013.

The Steelers added Mike Munchak to coach the offensive line in 2014 and Bell lost weight and was encouraged to use his patient running style to better enhance his abilities unlike Michigan State who wanted him to run behind his pads more and had him playing at a higher weight because of it.

 
Just Win Baby said:
I don't know, but I doubt it. I'm not sure if you realize, that actually goes against your stance here.

If, in fact, none of those I identified had the blocking schemes changed for them, and we know the Vikings are changing their blocking scheme to use more zone blocking because it better suits Cook, then they are arguably making an even bigger commitment to him than the teams of those other players did to them. :shrug:  
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The Vikings are switching to ZBS, but is it all because of Dalvin Cook? I'm not convinced. 

 
Biabreakable said:
LINK

Bell was drafted in 2013.

The Steelers added Mike Munchak to coach the offensive line in 2014 and Bell lost weight and was encouraged to use his patient running style to better enhance his abilities unlike Michigan State who wanted him to run behind his pads more and had him playing at a higher weight because of it.
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excellent research.

 
Another fan boy pespective.

The Vikings offense has been built around Adrian Peterson for the past decade. They did not completely change things because of Peterson in his rookie season, but they did build everything around him from that point forward.

When Brett Favre was the QB he would deviate from the script of the game plan frequently, otherwise the team has played to its plan which was built around Peterson as the center of the offense.

A lot of the man blocking schemes are plays that Peterson liked, and the offense was designed around him. Peterson is no longer with the team, so there were going to be changes made whether they drafted Cook or not. It is a bit of a chicken and the egg situation here. Sometimes teams draft players to fit the scheme they want to run.

I don't think the Vikings thought they would be able to draft Cook. When they were able to do so, that has likely changed their plans somewhat. Not such a novel idea that a team will design plays that their players are best at executing.

The only player on the Vikings more talented than Cook is Stefon Diggs, and I think that is debatable as well.

 
Just Win Baby said:
From the previous 20 drafts, these guys come to mind as being the centerpieces of their offenses as second round rookie RBs:

  • Lacy
  • Forte
  • MJD
  • Bell
  • Portis
  • Dillon
Not sure if I missed any others, particularly if we were to consider those who excelled in later seasons but did not as rookies due to injury.

IMO Cook's talent is on par with this group. YMMV
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I like Lacy a lot but Rodgers is/was no doubt the centerpiece of the Green Bay offense.

 
First unofficial team depth chart of the year and Cook is the starter. Not surprising given all the positive news but yet another confirmation point.  The situation now is far removed from draft day when people thought this was a difficult situation for Cook and that leapfrogging Murray and McKinnon was going to be difficult.  Still early in camp and things could change but things are looking up for Cook.

http://www.twincities.com/2017/08/07/rookie-rb-dalvin-cook-listed-as-starter-on-vikings-first-depth-chart/

 
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TripItUp said:
I need to see Cook on the NFL field before I invest in him at his current ADP.
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Well he's playing Thursday night against the Bills, plus it's his birthday, and he was talking to the locals about a td for his birthday.  His ADP might be at it's lowest right now.

 
Gopher State said:
Well he's playing Thursday night against the Bills, plus it's his birthday, and he was talking to the locals about a td for his birthday.  His ADP might be at it's lowest right now.
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He has the speed to break a big one. If he does on Thursday night, he jumps 2 rounds in ADP by August week 3 of preseason. 

 
cloppbeast said:
Fan-boys will say anything, so I take everything with a grain of salt.

You're claiming the Vikings are tailoring this offense for a second round pick. Sounds dubious. You sound like a salesman. 

The coach seems genuinely disappointed that Murray isn't out there.
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This fanboy stuff has to stop and according to the rules, it appears it is trying to troll or trigger.

Also, naysayers will say anything as well.

 
Ilov80s said:
He has the speed to break a big one. If he does on Thursday night, he jumps 2 rounds in ADP by August week 3 of preseason. 
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I think he went on the 3rd in my latest high stakes draft. So 2 rounds might be too much. Regardless, your point stands... this guy isn't getting any cheaper!!

 
Rhythmdoctor said:
I think he went on the 3rd in my latest high stakes draft. So 2 rounds might be too much. Regardless, your point stands... this guy isn't getting any cheaper!!
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Yeah, the hype is getting a little over played for value, but it still stands to reason he might be worth it. Its pricey for me, but when the draft comes, I can see myself pulling the trigger...even knowing it may be a reach. The way drafts go and all.

 
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My biggest concern is the great Adrian Peterson averaged 1.9 YPC last year.  Yes, we know that AP wasn't the same AP last year, but still, this run game was dog #### last year.

Cook isn't a wiggle guy, he's a top line speed guy that benefits from space...there was no space in 2016.

I just don't see it as a great fit for fantasy unless the offense undergoes dramatic changes.

 
TripItUp said:
My biggest concern is the great Adrian Peterson averaged 1.9 YPC last year.  Yes, we know that AP wasn't the same AP last year, but still, this run game was dog #### last year.

Cook isn't a wiggle guy, he's a top line speed guy that benefits from space...there was no space in 2016.

I just don't see it as a great fit for fantasy unless the offense undergoes dramatic changes.
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The offensive line was terrible last season. This has been talked about a lot already earlier in the thread.

If you don't think Cook is a wiggle guy then I suggest you watch him some more.

Riley Reiff has yet to practice and the offensive line is an ongoing concern.

 
TripItUp said:
I'm not on an island here...Chris Harris just characterized him that way in a recent podcast if you don't trust my opinion.  :shrug:
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I don't know who Chris Harris is but I'd tell him same thing I told you. It's not about trust, it's about not agreeing with that characterization.

 
Biabreakable said:
The offensive line was terrible last season. This has been talked about a lot already earlier in the thread.

If you don't think Cook is a wiggle guy then I suggest you watch him some more.

Riley Reiff has yet to practice and the offensive line is an ongoing concern.
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I've watched him plenty, he is more Melvin Gordon and less Lesean McCoy IMHO. (in terms of running style)

 
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TripItUp said:
Fournette is speed and power...Cook does not project as a power guy.
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We would be in lock step agreement on that comment, for both players.

It's the Cook not having wiggle I mainly did not agree with, but his lack of power is to me his biggest negative.

 
I agree with @TripItUp here in that Cook is far from McCoy. Their athletic profiles are very different. McCoy was average to poor in everything but quickness. His quickness tested off extremely high. That makes sense with the tape. He doesn't have the burst to run through tacklers, he doesn't seek contact. While he is fast, he's not a burner that just hits a crease and dusts the defense. What he does do is set-up defenders and use his agility and quickness to consistently find open space and allude tacklers. 

The Dalvin Cook athletic profile is a player without any real burst or agility, but a guy that can find a space and exploit it with speed. That is the same thing LF does, but LF has the size to be more violent at the point of attack. 

ETA: Lacking agility, doesn't mean a runner can't be elusive. If the runner knows how to change speed and can do it suddenly, it can be just as effective as a runner who has quicker feet. 

 
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Ilov80s said:
I agree with @TripItUp here in that Cook is far from McCoy. Their athletic profiles are very different. McCoy was average to poor in everything but quickness. His quickness tested off extremely high. That makes sense with the tape. He doesn't have the burst to run through tacklers, he doesn't seek contact. While he is fast, he's not a burner that just hits a crease and dusts the defense. What he does do is set-up defenders and use his agility and quickness to consistently find open space and allude tacklers. 

The Dalvin Cook athletic profile is a player without any real burst or agility, but a guy that can find a space and exploit it with speed. That is the same thing LF does, but LF has the size to be more violent at the point of attack. 

ETA: Lacking agility, doesn't mean a runner can't be elusive. If the runner knows how to change speed and can do it suddenly, it can be just as effective as a runner who has quicker feet. 
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:goodposting:

 
Wiggles

to move or go with short, quick, irregular movements from side to side:
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The first several plays show Cook changing direction laterally multiple times through the run eluding defenders while also running with burst speed and power that is difficult to tackle,

I agree he is very fast and can change direction while going top speed that makes him really difficult to bring down in the open field. Cook also navigates tight spaces and finds a way to daylight with quick unpredictable changes of direction laterally. Often setting defenders up with false steps and moves to get the defender to over-commit laterally before he burns them with the cut back.

 
menobrown said:
Bucky Brooks did a tour of NFL training camps and this is what he had to say on Dalvin Cook just a few days ago after his training camp visit:

When asked what he thought on his Vikings tour he started by saying, 'It's all about Dalvin Cook". He said that Latavius may only touch the ball when Cook needs a breather. He went on to say they were lining him up all over, in the slot, out wide, etc, etc. He mentioned that everything you thought about him in the pre-draft process, before a variety of stuff dinged his value, was legit and that a few people he spoke with on the Vikings said they were ok with Peterson leaving because Cook allowed them to run an offense more suited to Bradford and the style of offense they want to run.

So unless Bucky is out hard selling for Cook this all kind of sounded like the offense is in fact being tailored to Cook.
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Yeah! Move the Sticks brothers! :fistbump: 

 
I don't think Cook will be the problem if he doesn't succeed this year or next, it will be can the o-line open a hole? 

I spoke to someone who was at the Vikings scrimmage late last week and he said there were 3 people in the backfield all scrimmage long and Cook had no where to go.  Granted Reiff was out and his backup was out, and one of the top defensive lines are going against a lower tier oline, but that oline will probably not be able to hold up this season.  

 
Having better lateral agility than Fournette isn't some huge feat. Comparing Cook to McCoy in that regard is also silly, as Fournette and McCoy sit on opposite ends of the lateral agility spectrum. The truth is Cook likely fall somewhere in the middle. But I agree, lateral agility isn't the cornerstone of Cook's game.

Although I buy into the talent, Cook's price by late August may end up being too rich for my blood. I mean, Murray was just activated off the PUP today. I don't see how he isn't involved in some capacity.

 
TripItUp said:
Cook isn't a wiggle guy, he's a top line speed guy that benefits from space
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Words matter, so this could be a semantics discussion... but here are some select quotes from his NFL draft profile:

The speedy and shifty back... Uses choppy feet and compact stride length downhill. Keeps feet under him and is able to make lateral cuts at a moment's notice. Flourished in zone, gap and power schemes at FSU. At his best running wide while setting up lead blockers. Slows flowing safeties and linebackers with hesitation steps and glances back inside. Has run-away gear around the corner he keeps tucked away for special occasions. Darting style allows him to escape defenders who show gap commitment too soon. Plus vision. Quick to flow from first to second read on outside zone plays... Rare ability to cut it all the way back across the grain. Changes direction with degree of subtlety on second level without gearing down. Not much of a dancer. Tends to get hit it up the field. Feet in constant state of motion... Very talented runner with outstanding balance, footwork and burst... Cook creates for himself with elusiveness and speed... If everything checks out, he could become a rookie of the year candidate right away.
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I don't read these quotes as "isn't a wiggle guy". And IMO these quotes accurately describe what I saw when I watched him play college football.  :shrug:  

 
In my league he will go in the early 2nd.  We are a Twin Cities based league an harangue owners who do not have a Viking on their roster.

 
Faust said:
Vikings burning question: Is Dalvin Cook the perfect fit for Pat Shurmur's offense?
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The NFL is going to be a different beast, no doubt. But Cook took a play that should have been a five-yard run and turned it into a touchdown because of his shiftiness in close quarters. Pro Football Focus gave him a 129.4 Elusive Rating coming into the draft, ranked No. 2 in the country. By comparison, McKinnon received a 34.4 Elusive Rating (30th in the NFL) while Asiata received a 21.3 (48th). 
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Does this look wiggly?

 
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For redraft purposes how do you guys rank Cook around similar ranked rbs? Cowell/Cook/Hyde/Ingram

I'm thinking

1. Crow

2. Cook

3. Hyde 

4. Ingram ( I hate Sean Payton)

 
Weebs210 said:
For redraft purposes how do you guys rank Cook around similar ranked rbs? Cowell/Cook/Hyde/Ingram

I'm thinking

1. Crow

2. Cook

3. Hyde 

4. Ingram ( I hate Sean Payton)
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Cook

Hyde

Crowell

Ingram

is how I would order these 4 options. I'm somewhat undecided in regards to Crowell vs Ingram. Mostly because Ingram could be very good if Peterson isn't.

 
I loved Cook before the combine.  Had him ranked 2nd to McCaffrey.  Then his combine metrics definitely scared me off.  Obviously reports from camp confirm what mine and many others eyes saw before the combine and that's a dominant elusive RB with plenty of speed to take it to the house.  At this point, I definitely have him back as my 2nd RB.  Can't wait to see some of these rookies play in a preseason game though.  I can't remember the last time I've been this excited about rookies!  Oh wait, last year about this time :P

 
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