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Dynasty & Redraft: RB Dalvin Cook, Vikings

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31 minutes ago, Faust said:

 

Cook is not 233 lbs or close to it.

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1 minute ago, voiceofunreason said:

Because he's black, he looks faster to you anyways.

Haha. I went back and watched them again after the times today and Cook just looks a lot faster to me.

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FSU RB Dalvin Cook says he can have an Ezekiel Elliott-like impact as a rookie.

 

"I feel like if I get put in the right system, I can do the same things that Zeke did," Cook said. Elliott, of course, found the perfect situation and went off for 1,631 rushing yards and 15 touchdowns as a rookie. "Zeke paved the way for us. Todd Gurley, Melvin Gordon, all those guys paved a way for us. Zeke did a great job of catching the ball out of the backfield, protecting Dak (Prescott) at quarterback, running very well behind a good offensive line, he paved the way for us," Cook said. "It was a good thing for us coming in right now." NFL Media's Lance Zierlein compares Cook to Edgerrin James, while Rotoworld draft guru Josh Norris compares him to DeAngelo Williams.
 
 
Source: NFL.com 
Mar 3 - 1:11 PM

 

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Sure, just put me behind the best line in football and I can be good too. I guess if he ends up in Oakland we will see if he's right. Otherwise there isn't another situation like that in football. I'm more interested to know what he can do behind a line like Indy....

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This sure doesn't sound good when it's all summed up:

Florida State RB Dalvin Cook tested as ninth-percentile SPARQ athlete at the NFL Combine.
Tennessee RB Alvin Kamara had the highest SPARQ score of any back in Indy, hitting the 79th percentile. Cook was at the opposite end of the spectrum, struggling in the three-cone drill (7.27), 20-yard shuttle (4.53), vertical (30.5"), and broad jump (9'8"). He did run a solid forty (4.49). Still, it was a concerning weekend for a back considered a potential first-round pick. According to 3 Sigma Athlete's Zach Whitman, no running back who tested as a sub-10th-percentile SPARQ athlete has been drafted in the first round in the last 17 years. 
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1 hour ago, Andy Dufresne said:

This sure doesn't sound good when it's all summed up:

Florida State RB Dalvin Cook tested as ninth-percentile SPARQ athlete at the NFL Combine.
Tennessee RB Alvin Kamara had the highest SPARQ score of any back in Indy, hitting the 79th percentile. Cook was at the opposite end of the spectrum, struggling in the three-cone drill (7.27), 20-yard shuttle (4.53), vertical (30.5"), and broad jump (9'8"). He did run a solid forty (4.49). Still, it was a concerning weekend for a back considered a potential first-round pick. According to 3 Sigma Athlete's Zach Whitman, no running back who tested as a sub-10th-percentile SPARQ athlete has been drafted in the first round in the last 17 years. 

The lack of explosion/burst isn't too surprising. The crazy part to me was his poor performance in agility drills.  I can't imagine we've seen a successful RB that has <10th percentile burst and agility. If I am an NFL team, I think I downgrade him to day 2 or 3. Injury history, off field history and an athletic profile of a guy that would be lucky to make a practice squad. That's too many red flags for me. 

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On the other end of the spectrum, SPARQ darlings like Christine Michael and Jerrick McKinnon have gone on to fail as RBs to date. As some one that could be in position to draft Cook in some leagues, this gives me a slight pause - but I'll rely more on what I've seen from watching him live and in game cut ups, and take his draft position and landing spot into consideration.

It is certainly a bit disappointing though.

Edited by Dr. Octopus
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Man I just laugh when I hear people saying he should be significantly downgraded based on this underwear Olympic BS. Watch the guy PLAY and then try to say he should be a day two or three pick. I guarantee you there are NFL teams that actually know what they're doing who pray he falls in the draft because of this. 

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Really surprised at the metrics on him at the combine.  He didn't look good in drills either dropping some pretty easy passes.  Almost disinterested somehow.  He has special patience and vision that is truly evident when you watch him play though.  Plenty of on field speed and burst.

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I won't be in a position to draft Cook in any case, but if I were the amalgam of bad news would sure make me pause.  I'm a huge believer in drafting football players over athletes, but this lack of comparable athletic metrics is worrisome.  I also think it's completely meaningless to discuss high SPARQ performers who failed because Cook will never be in that conversation.

 

We've all seen guys who were superb college players fail because their skill set just didn't transfer to the next level.  Trent Richardson is a great example - he was supposed to be a lock for the next great RB.  A far inferior athletic profile could be that red flag, which is what we are talking about here.  He's got to get into the open field to use that speed, and being that much less agile and explosive could mean the difference between hitting the seam in the line or not.  We're not talking about him sinking to the average range.  This is a SPARQ score that was outdone but over 90% of the guys there.

 

To be honest, the 3 shoulder surgeries make me even more leery than the low SPARQ rating.  NFL RBs take a massive pounding on their shoulders.  Then add in the off field nonsense and I don't know how you help but wonder if this guy just might be the next sure thing to go down in flames when he gets to the next level.  He won't be competing against college kids anymore.  He'll be heads up against a lot of guys who are better athletes and are great football players.

 

.

Edited by Bronco Billy

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55 minutes ago, petekrum said:

Man I just laugh when I hear people saying he should be significantly downgraded based on this underwear Olympic BS. Watch the guy PLAY and then try to say he should be a day two or three pick. I guarantee you there are NFL teams that actually know what they're doing who pray he falls in the draft because of this. 

I'm not saying he will be a day 2 or 3 pick. It's just where I would slot him as a GM. He's just a RB. 

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Dalvin Cooks 3 cone and 20 yard shuttle times were poor and that does not match what you see when watching him play, where he shows very good quickness and change of direction ability.

It makes me question his effort and preperation, because the player I have seen looks capable of putting up better times than he did.

If I were Cook or his agent I would be planning to do those drills again at his pro day and hopefully put up some better numbers.

For me it is too soon to draw conclusions from this data. I need to let that sink in a bit. No question the numbers Cook put up were disappointing. 

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I've never been a believer and now I'm really not. He's just an average RB. He could still have a big season or two if he's put in the right situation but special is not in his range.

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21 minutes ago, Biabreakable said:

Dalvin Cooks 3 cone and 20 yard shuttle times were poor and that does not match what you see when watching him play, where he shows very good quickness and change of direction ability.

It makes me question his effort and preperation, because the player I have seen looks capable of putting up better times than he did.

If I were Cook or his agent I would be planning to do those drills again at his pro day and hopefully put up some better numbers.

For me it is too soon to draw conclusions from this data. I need to let that sink in a bit. No question the numbers Cook put up were disappointing. 

Would that even be better than him just being a poor athlete, or worse?

We've seen some players that were quite a bit better and more athletic than Cook fail in the NFL due to lack of effort and preparation.

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9 minutes ago, FreeBaGeL said:

Would that even be better than him just being a poor athlete, or worse?

We've seen some players that were quite a bit better and more athletic than Cook fail in the NFL due to lack of effort and preparation.

 

I think it either makes him very dumb or very savvy.  If it was actually lack of interest given how much attention the combine gets and its impact, that's a serious red flag.  If it was the appearance of not caring to drop in the draft into a more desirable landing spot, that's ballsy but potentially very effective.  What is the word about his work ethic and preparation up to now?

 

It would seem that actually not caring could match up with the poor off field decisions he has made - assuming that he actually could perform better than he did. That would be troubling.

Edited by Bronco Billy

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Just now, FreeBaGeL said:

Would that even be better than him just being a poor athlete, or worse?

We've seen some players that were quite a bit better and more athletic than Cook fail in the NFL due to lack of effort and preparation.

I'm not sure.

One one hand you want to see players demonstrate at least a certain threshold of relative athleticism as a prerequisite to playing their position. While the 3 cone and 20 yard times were poor, they don't necessarily mean he isn't a good athlete. He just didn't put up the numbers you would expect from him in those drill based on how he plays in the games. So if he is below the baseline athleticism needed (as being suggested by the SPARQ score comparisons) then he won't make it in the NFL. In that sense, him having poor effort or technique rather than lacking athletic ability would be preferable, because then the player at least has the athletic ability to be successful if they apply themselves.

However if the reason for the poor times is due to a lack of effort and preparation, then you have other questions about the players motivation to give maximum effort every time. Will the player be able to learn new skills quickly? If they didn't learn proper technique to be successful in the drills in a short time, what does that say about the players ability to learn other techniques that coaches will want him to use in practice and games?

So I guess the lack of effort could be better than lacking athletic ability. They are two different issues though.

I don't put much stock in any of this information either way. That Cooks results cause such a poor SPARQ score tells me more that there is something wrong with the metrics they are using, because although the 3 cone time and 20 yard shuttle times were poor, he did run a pretty good 40 time and I think it is pretty obvious that Cook is athletic enough to play the game at a high level. Which leads me to think the issue may be more a lack of preparation or effort.

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I'm not too concerned. We've seen enough games against tough competition to know how good he is. No need to push the red button just yet. I'd be more concerned about his off the field performance than his on the field performance.

Tex

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How much will this drop him in the draft, if at all?

Who are some of the guys that have been successful in the NFL despite a SPARQ score that low?  I think it was mentioned that no one has had one that low and been drafted in the 1st round in quite a while.

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Just now, FreeBaGeL said:

How much will this drop him in the draft, if at all?

Who are some of the guys that have been successful in the NFL despite a SPARQ score that low?  I think it was mentioned that no one has had one that low and been drafted in the 1st round in quite a while.

Lock to go in the first round.

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Just now, voiceofunreason said:

All of a sudden this amazing draft looks pretty average to me.

Why?

Tex

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Seems to me, he's like his predecessor, Devonta Freeman. Just 1.5-2 inches taller.

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Freeman is one of the worst RB prospects I've ever witnessed have success in the NFL. So it's really terrible company if that's true. 

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1 minute ago, Milkman said:

Freeman is one of the worst RB prospects I've ever witnessed have success in the NFL. So it's really terrible company if that's true. 

So let me get this straight. A guy you didn't like ended up being successful. 

So which is the terrible part?

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4 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

So let me get this straight. A guy you didn't like ended up being successful. 

So which is the terrible part?

He got lots of touches on the best offense in the league. He still looked mediocre doing it. I'm not going to turn this into a Freeman thread. I'll never draft prespects like that and I'll be quiet successful doing it. I'll just leave it at that. 

 

If you guys like this kid have at it. I never have. 

Edited by Milkman

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1 hour ago, FreeBaGeL said:

How much will this drop him in the draft, if at all?

Who are some of the guys that have been successful in the NFL despite a SPARQ score that low?  I think it was mentioned that no one has had one that low and been drafted in the 1st round in quite a while.

I don't believe he'll drop in the draft because of his performance. It wasn't horrible it just wasn't what people were expecting.

The question that should be asked is two fold.

1. Has there ever been a RB to perform at his level on the field and have a similar SPARQ score?

2. If so was he successful in the NFL?

Tex

Edited by BigTex

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18 minutes ago, Milkman said:

Freeman is one of the worst RB prospects I've ever witnessed have success in the NFL. So it's really terrible company if that's true. 

Just looking at the numbers. Weak verticals, 4.49 vs 4.58 40 for Cook, broad jump similar, both can catch the ball really well, Freeman beat him on both the 20 yard shuttle and 3 cone drills.

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For reference, Freeman 38th percentile SPARQ. He was slower than Cooks but performed better in agility and burst drills.

Edited by Ilov80s

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1 hour ago, Milkman said:

Freeman is one of the worst RB prospects I've ever witnessed have success in the NFL. So it's really terrible company if that's true. 

yeah we know....but ya know what he produces....despite you bellyaching about him all the time

 

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3 hours ago, Milkman said:

He got lots of touches on the best offense in the league. He still looked mediocre doing it. I'm not going to turn this into a Freeman thread. I'll never draft prespects like that and I'll be quiet successful doing it. I'll just leave it at that. 

 

If you guys like this kid have at it. I never have. 

Come on, you've never been quiet.  :D

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2 hours ago, bicycle_seat_sniffer said:

yeah we know....but ya know what he produces....despite you bellyaching about him all the time

 

Well, we know that he produced in college. There's a huge difference between college and the NFL and guys with limited athleticism often struggle when the holes are suddenly smaller and close faster and when defenders all are able to chase you down. 

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5 hours ago, voiceofunreason said:

All of a sudden this amazing draft looks pretty average to me.

Because you're making the same mistake many make and allowing the combine to shape your views.

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5 minutes ago, petekrum said:

Because you're making the same mistake many make and allowing the combine to shape your views.

X2

Tex

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14 minutes ago, petekrum said:

Because you're making the same mistake many make and allowing the combine to shape your views.

This is what most on this forum think but the combine is huge in discovering who has the physical traits needed to be a difference maker for me. Then you go check the tape and see if you see special on tape on the players that are elite athletes.

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Cook is awesome. I hope he drops to me at 1.2 because of the combine.

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9 minutes ago, Gandalf said:

Cook is awesome. I hope he drops to me at 1.2 because of the combine.

Yup I think I might have a shot at getting him at 1.3 now

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42 minutes ago, Billy Ball Thorton said:

Lesean McCoy was terrible in these drills. Ran slow crappy vertices ect. I remember many saying he had no explosion. 

Worked out ok for him. 

Not true. McCoy was really bad in the drills that measure explosiveness. McCoy was exceptional in the drills that measured quickness. McCoy tested as a guy with average speed, low burst but lightning quickness.  

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5 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Not true. McCoy was really bad in the drills that measure explosiveness. McCoy was exceptional in the drills that measured quickness. McCoy tested as a guy with average speed, low burst but lightning quickness.  

his strength was the worst pretty much ever

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1 hour ago, Milkman said:

This is what most on this forum think but the combine is huge in discovering who has the physical traits needed to be a difference maker for me. Then you go check the tape and see if you see special on tape on the players that are elite athletes.

I never agree with krum but  I do here.

The combine is one tool. To quote Kenny Powers "I'm not trying to be the best at working out, I play real sports"

 

Sometimes great athletes are not great football players. and average athletes are excellent football players.

 

IIRC correctly the only thing that really stood out about Leveon Bell was his 3 cone drill. He has lost some weight since his college days.

 

This is an in-exact science.

 

it will bet interesting to see where Cook falls now due to his "poor" combine

 

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2 minutes ago, bicycle_seat_sniffer said:

his strength was the worst pretty much ever

McCoy had a god awful vert and broad jump at his pro day, but he also demonstrated the high end quickness that people saw on film. Nobody that saw McCoy in college was banking on him winning in the NFL by running through tacklers. They saw a guy that could make defenders miss with quickness. That came through loud and clear in his workout numbers.

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1 minute ago, bicycle_seat_sniffer said:

I never agree with krum but  I do here.

The combine is one tool. To quote Kenny Powers "I'm not trying to be the best at working out, I play real sports"

 

Sometimes great athletes are not great football players. and average athletes are excellent football players.

 

IIRC correctly the only thing that really stood out about Leveon Bell was his 3 cone drill. He has lost some weight since his college days.

 

This is an in-exact science.

 

it will bet interesting to see where Cook falls now due to his "poor" combine

 

I took Bell in front of Gio. Everybody clowned me for it. Bells tape was great and his 3 cone at that size was ridiculous. I like the way I do it and it's been working for me so I'll just keep doing it. I have a list of guys I will be studying tape of after their combine performance this weekend. Dalvin Cook didn't make the list.

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4 minutes ago, bicycle_seat_sniffer said:

I never agree with krum but  I do here.

The combine is one tool. To quote Kenny Powers "I'm not trying to be the best at working out, I play real sports"

 

Sometimes great athletes are not great football players. and average athletes are excellent football players.

 

IIRC correctly the only thing that really stood out about Leveon Bell was his 3 cone drill. He has lost some weight since his college days.

 

This is an in-exact science.

 

it will bet interesting to see where Cook falls now due to his "poor" combine

 

Bell was similar to McCoy. His burst was weak but demonstrated exceptional quickness. Overall came in at 67th percentile SPARQ. Nothing at all like what Cook did.

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