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​ 🏛️ ​Official Supreme Court nomination thread - Amy Coney Barrett

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47 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

Uh that’s not a “rabbit hole”, it’s slanderous.

Sigh. Agreed. But that's what I'm trying avoid here. I'll back out of it from here and you guys can take this one off the rails if you prefer.

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1 hour ago, sho nuff said:

Catholics are Christians

*allegedly

*I kid, I kid

 

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1 hour ago, BobbyLayne said:

*allegedly

 

  Hide contents

*I kid, I kid

 

At least on Easter and Christmas. 

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3 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

The "are Catholics really Christians" is a thread that might be interesting for some to run down.

WTF?

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19 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

At least on Easter and Christmas. 

I have a couple nephews who teach at Jesuit schools and they turned my opinion on Catholics in general. Interestingly, a lot of the pastors in my (Pentecostal) church enjoy reading Catholic authors.

I grew up basically believing Catholics only existed to stoke the fires of hell. I evolved. 

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3 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

WTF?

What’s their faith?

How much time you got?

:P

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7 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

I have a couple nephews who teach at Jesuit schools and they turned my opinion on Catholics in general. Interestingly, a lot of the pastors in my (Pentecostal) church enjoy reading Catholic authors.

I grew up basically believing Catholics only existed to stoke the fires of hell. I evolved. 

I grew up thinking everyone was Catholic or Lutheran (til I then realized my step mom and then my dad went to a Methodist Church).  Didn't really know Baptists existed til I moved to Tennessee as a 15 year old...and was questioned if I believed in Christ after I told someone i was Catholic.

Anyway...none of which has much to do with the thread.  Just a little sticking point I have when people try and separate Catholic and Christian.  Its like...who do people think we are referring to when we do the sign of the cross.  Some other Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

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21 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

What’s their faith?

How much time you got?

:P

Christians can be some of the worst when it comes to fighting amongst themselves. Super discouraging. And why I said I have no interest in going down that path here. 

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5 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

I grew up thinking everyone was Catholic or Lutheran (til I then realized my step mom and then my dad went to a Methodist Church).  Didn't really know Baptists existed til I moved to Tennessee as a 15 year old...and was questioned if I believed in Christ after I told someone i was Catholic.

Anyway...none of which has much to do with the thread.  Just a little sticking point I have when people try and separate Catholic and Christian.  Its like...who do people think we are referring to when we do the sign of the cross.  Some other Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

True, we should hop off this rabbit trail. @Joe Bryant made mention of another thread discussion but I wasn’t able to find it.

I consider Catholics to be my brothers and sisters in Christ. Everyone back home in west Michigan (Reformed Church of America and Christian Reformed denominations are both HQed there) would sharply disagree.

I think it’s important to not major in minors. Would highly recommend the Netflix documentary American Gospel: Christ Alone.

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In general, along with discussing politics, I dislike discussing religion even more.  I hate how married the two have become with one another.  And, while I might be mistaken, the biggest reason for that is the entire pro-life vs. pro-choice stance.  For many, many Christians, it's the single biggest issue that determines who they vote for.  And the reason I have such a big problem with it, even though I understand why they are choosing how they choose, is summed in in the following quote almost 20 years ago from a Benedictine Nun:

"I do not believe that just because you are opposed to abortion, that that makes you pro-life. In fact, I think in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born but not a child fed, a child educated, a child housed. And why would I think that you don't? Because you don't want any tax money to go there. That's not pro-life. That's pro-birth. We need a much broader conversation on what the morality of pro-life is."

For me, claiming to be pro-life/anti-abortion yet still endorsing policies that don't support families, education, and generally "pro-life" things for people who are actually living on the planet and in need is a hypocritical stance to take.  So when those politicians/lawmakers who are Christian are supporting policies such as separating families through deportation or denying healthcare to those who need it the most or any other number of things that generally don't jive with the true idea of "pro-life" are the ones that Christians are voting in, I similarly have a hard time believing they are truly following Christian ideals in being pro-life.  I find it to be the exact opposite.

ETA -- Here's a link to her quote and further comments on it

Edited by gianmarco
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Seems normal:

AP report on People of Praise

The AP interviewed seven current and former members of People of Praise, and reviewed its tax records, websites, missionary blogs and back issues of its magazine to try to paint a fuller picture of an organization that Barrett has been deeply involved in since childhood.

***

 

The AP also reviewed 15 years of back issues of the organization’s internal magazine, Vine and Branches, which has published birth announcements, photos and other mentions of Barrett and her husband, Jesse, whose family has been active in the group for four decades. On Friday, all editions of the magazine were removed from the group’s website.

Edited by Sinn Fein

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7 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

Seems normal:

AP report on People of Praise

The AP interviewed seven current and former members of People of Praise, and reviewed its tax records, websites, missionary blogs and back issues of its magazine to try to paint a fuller picture of an organization that Barrett has been deeply involved in since childhood.

***

 

The AP also reviewed 15 years of back issues of the organization’s internal magazine, Vine and Branches, which has published birth announcements, photos and other mentions of Barrett and her husband, Jesse, whose family has been active in the group for four decades. On Friday, all editions of the magazine were removed from the group’s website.

Maybe didn’t want to dox other members of People of Praise?

:shrug:

She’s a public figure, but if I belonged to them I could see being a little concerned about being targeted. Am I wrong?

It’s a pretty small sect, right? Like 7K members or so? 

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Maybe - seems more like a non-traditional sect that does not want scrutiny that comes with a SC nominee being a member.

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3 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

Maybe - seems more like a non-traditional sect that does not want scrutiny that comes with a SC nominee being a member.

Could be. They're definitely a bit different, I was unaware of their existence until she was a potential nominee.

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5 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

Could be. They're definitely a bit different, I was unaware of their existence until she was a potential nominee.

A couple of things deserve further investigation - imo: How involved is she in the group?  And, how involved are the group into members lives?

 

A couple of things that sort of stood out to me - she has been around the group since childhood, and she moved to South Bend - where the group was formed.  That suggests a potential for indoctrination - without more.  Certainly going to Notre Dame is a good reason to move to South Bend - but it seems odd, given the connection to People of Praise.

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A little puzzled at why ACB being Catholic is an issue. 

Joe Biden is Catholic and he might be the next POTUS.  Nancy Pelosi is Catholic, AOC is Catholic, Sonia Sotomayor is Catholic. Lots of Catholics in politics.

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1 minute ago, Summer Wheat said:

A little puzzled at why ACB being Catholic is an issue. 

Joe Biden is Catholic and he might be the next POTUS.  Nancy Pelosi is Catholic, AOC is Catholic, Sonia Sotomayor is Catholic. Lots of Catholics in politics.

I *think* the issue is with People of Praise not the Roman Catholic Church.

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52 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

A couple of things deserve further investigation - imo: How involved is she in the group?  And, how involved are the group into members lives?

 

A couple of things that sort of stood out to me - she has been around the group since childhood, and she moved to South Bend - where the group was formed.  That suggests a potential for indoctrination - without more.  Certainly going to Notre Dame is a good reason to move to South Bend - but it seems odd, given the connection to People of Praise.

I’ve tried to learn more about then (preferably stuff written before ACB became a judge) and have come up empty. They’re minuscule it’s not even on anyone’s radar.

For instance, if you Googled my church or my pastor you find tons of material. We could have a dialogue. But with People of Praise I feel like everything I’ve read is looking through the handmaiden prism.

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24 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

I’ve tried to learn more about then (preferably stuff written before ACB became a judge) and have come up empty. They’re minuscule it’s not even on anyone’s radar.

For instance, if you Googled my church or my pastor you find tons of material. We could have a dialogue. But with People of Praise I feel like everything I’ve read is looking through the handmaiden prism.

I'ma ask my buddy whose family was in it back in the day.

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Ted Cruz sitting there with ACB claiming you need 9 justices ASAP in order to rule on any election related cases is so audaciously ####ed up you almost have to admire it. 

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1 hour ago, BobbyLayne said:

I *think* the issue is with People of Praise not the Roman Catholic Church.

The charismatic movement in the Catholic Church is fairly widespread.  It's not a majority or anything but I venture to guess that every diocese has charismatic groups, Life in the Spirit seminars, healing masses, etc.  Not a big deal imo, or fringe.

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1 hour ago, Summer Wheat said:

A little puzzled at why ACB being Catholic is an issue. 

Joe Biden is Catholic and he might be the next POTUS.  Nancy Pelosi is Catholic, AOC is Catholic, Sonia Sotomayor is Catholic. Lots of Catholics in politics.

Catholics serving on the John Roberts Supreme Court(s):

John Roberts

Antonin Scalia

Anthony Kennedy

Clarence Thomas

Samuel Alito

Sonia Sotomayor

Brett Kavanaugh

-plus-

Neil Gorsuch (raised Catholic and matriculated at a Jesuit high school)

Staunch conservatives who universally laud the John Roberts Supreme Court(s): >crickets<

The issue is neither People of Praise or her Catholicism, it's the circumstances surrounding her nomination.

They made Kavanaugh the devil incarnate for some high school party antics.  Frankly, if this is all they are able to conjure up on her, they should make her chief justice. lol

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5 minutes ago, Psychopav said:

The charismatic movement in the Catholic Church is fairly widespread.  It's not a majority or anything but I venture to guess that every diocese has charismatic groups, Life in the Spirit seminars, healing masses, etc.  Not a big deal imo, or fringe.

This group extends beyond a parish or diocese.  Its not Knights of Columbus.

The notion of women deferring to their husbands is a bit of a fringe movement, imo.

 

But, it remains to see how much influence she has over the group, or the group have over her.  Absent that, then I don't think its a big deal.

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22 hours ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

There's an obvious (to me) difference between the following two questions:

1. Does capital punishment run afoul of the Eighth Amendment under a proper constitutional analysis?

2. Now that this defendant has been convicted by the jury, it is up to me to finally determine the appropriate sentence after weighing the various mitigating and aggravating circumstances -- should it be death or something else?

I don't know whether the second situation was the intended context for ACB's quotation above (and I'm aware it's now mooted by Hurst). But it is quite easy for me to imagine being able to put aside my personal views and decide issue #1 fairly while being unable to do so with issue #2.

I'm curious as to what circumstance you would be deciding #1 without considering whether a particular defendant will be put to death.

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Just now, Sinn Fein said:

This group extends beyond a parish or diocese.  Its not Knights of Columbus.

The notion of women deferring to their husbands is a bit of a fringe movement, imo.

 

But, it remains to see how much influence she has over the group, or the group have over her.  Absent that, then I don't think its a big deal.

Or they are called to obey their husbands by Paul, and this teaching is consistent with every mainline protestant as well as Catholic teaching for the entire 20th century.  Sounds like sensationalistic pot-stirring to even report it as an issue, from where I stand.

The same passage calls for husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the Church (you may recall he was tortured and killed for the Church).  Most commentaries on the obedience aspect go on to cover the sacrificial aspect of the passage as well.  Nothing new or fringe here, other than the half-truth way it's reported, I expect.  I'd suggest that because of this universal teaching on this particular subject, the burden of proof is on the reporter to show how this is any different from how this is addressed on any given Sunday in any typical Christian church.

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10 minutes ago, Psychopav said:

Or they are called to obey their husbands by Paul, and this teaching is consistent with every mainline protestant as well as Catholic teaching for the entire 20th century.  Sounds like sensationalistic pot-stirring to even report it as an issue, from where I stand.

The same passage calls for husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the Church (you may recall he was tortured and killed for the Church).  Most commentaries on the obedience aspect go on to cover the sacrificial aspect of the passage as well.  Nothing new or fringe here, other than the half-truth way it's reported, I expect.  I'd suggest that because of this universal teaching on this particular subject, the burden of proof is on the reporter to show how this is any different from how this is addressed on any given Sunday in any typical Christian church.

Fortunately, ex-members did some of this work for them by previously detailing in exposes the alleged subjugation of women within that group.  

Like this book detailing one member's description of what she considers to have been escaping from a cult.
Or like this book from a Notre Dame philosophy professor who was part of the group.

Which are discussed in this article.

Which also details the life of some single women inside this religious institution:
 

Quote

 

The group’s magazine also offers insights into the group’s views on marriage, community and members’ finances. A 2007 issue discusses how the 17 single women who live together in a household, called the Sisterhood, had their paychecks direct deposited into a single bank account. One member said she had “no idea” what the amount of her paycheck was.

The pooled money was managed by one woman, who budgeted for everyone’s clothing and other expenses, including $36 weekly per person for food and basics like toilet paper. All women were expected to give 10% of their pay to People of Praise, another 1% to the South Bend branch and additional tithes to their churches.

 

There's also some discussion in the article of the covenant that's expected to be signed swearing to act always in accordance with the teachings of the church leaders.

Edited by Henry Ford

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1 minute ago, Henry Ford said:

Fortunately, ex-members did some of this work for them by previously detailing in exposes the alleged subjugation of women within that group.  

Like this book detailing one member's description of what she considers to have been escaping from a cult.

Which is discussed in this article.

Which also details the life of some single women inside this religious institution:
 

There's also some discussion in the article of the covenant that's expected to be signed swearing to act always in accordance with the teachings of the church leaders.

We should certainly rush through this vetting process.

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10 minutes ago, Psychopav said:

The charismatic movement in the Catholic Church is fairly widespread.  It's not a majority or anything but I venture to guess that every diocese has charismatic groups, Life in the Spirit seminars, healing masses, etc.  Not a big deal imo, or fringe.

Never heard of it before Monday. Was wondering why there was a big uproar over "attacking" her because she is Catholic. I didn't actually see any attacks. But it makes a bit more sense now. The proactive defense of attacking her Catholicism was actually put out there to thwart the fact that she's part of this obscure group that has 1,700 members worldwide and teaches that "women are encouraged to provide food and childcare and run an effective household".

People of Praise Wiki site

I'm going to leave it at that. I am Catholic, but not religious, have never heard of them before, and some of their ideas do seem a bit misogynistic IMO. But I'm not a religious expert so I'll just bow out here. 

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10 minutes ago, Psychopav said:

Or they are called to obey their husbands by Paul, and this teaching is consistent with every mainline protestant as well as Catholic teaching for the entire 20th century.  Sounds like sensationalistic pot-stirring to even report it as an issue, from where I stand.

The same passage calls for husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the Church (you may recall he was tortured and killed for the Church).  Most commentaries on the obedience aspect go on to cover the sacrificial aspect of the passage as well.  Nothing new or fringe here, other than the half-truth way it's reported, I expect.  I'd suggest that because of this universal teaching on this particular subject, the burden of proof is on the reporter to show how this is any different from how this is addressed on any given Sunday in any typical Christian church.

So when it is time to decide a case does she use her knowledge of the law and make her best judgment even if that means disobeying her husband?  I don't think this was in doubt for any prior nominations that were women.  I don't think it should be in doubt for Barrett either except what you wrote suggests otherwise.

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1 minute ago, Grace Under Pressure said:

Never heard of it before Monday. Was wondering why there was a big uproar over "attacking" her because she is Catholic. I didn't actually see any attacks. But it makes a bit more sense now. The proactive defense of attacking her Catholicism was actually put out there to thwart the fact that she's part of this obscure group that has 1,700 members worldwide and teaches that "women are encouraged to provide food and childcare and run an effective household".

People of Praise Wiki site

I'm going to leave it at that. I am Catholic, but not religious, have never heard of them before, and some of their ideas do seem a bit misogynistic IMO. But I'm not a religious expert so I'll just bow out here. 

And for my part, I have not heard of the specific group "People of Praise", just speaking of the charismatic renewal in general.  I need to look into the links that Henry Ford provided above to learn more about this group.

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2 minutes ago, Bottomfeeder Sports said:

So when it is time to decide a case does she use her knowledge of the law and make her best judgment even if that means disobeying her husband?  I don't think this was in doubt for any prior nominations that were women.  I don't think it should be in doubt for Barrett either except what you wrote suggests otherwise.

Why would her husband have any input whatsoever in her judgments as a federal judge?

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Just now, Psychopav said:

Why would her husband have any input whatsoever in her judgments as a federal judge?

I think that is the question that should be explored.

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In addition - the group have pretty strong feelings on same-sex marriage, and homosexuality.  So, I think her views on those subject should be explored - can she separate her religious beliefs from the legal analysis?

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1 minute ago, Psychopav said:

Why would her husband have any input whatsoever in her judgments as a federal judge?

Did you not just write that "they [wives] are called to obey their husbands"?  If her husband chooses to have input in a case is she to disobey him?   Would she disobey him? Would her job come before her faith?   These should be disrespectful questions to ask her, but when you start from position that she should obey her husband the can of worms is opened.

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5 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

In addition - the group have pretty strong feelings on same-sex marriage, and homosexuality.  So, I think her views on those subject should be explored - can she separate her religious beliefs from the legal analysis?

Yeah, but that just makes her like Scalia. 

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3 minutes ago, Bottomfeeder Sports said:

Did you not just write that "they [wives] are called to obey their husbands"?  If her husband chooses to have input in a case is she to disobey him?   Would she disobey him? Would her job come before her faith?   These should be disrespectful questions to ask her, but when you start from position that she should obey her husband the can of worms is opened.

But that just makes her like Scalia.

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Case closed. Move along.

But when asked by then-Sen. Orrin Hatch in her 2017 confirmation hearings how she would respond to Democrats’ concerns about the impact of her faith on her judicial decisions, she replied: “Senator, I see no conflict between having a sincerely held faith and duties as a judge.”

And were I confirmed as a judge, I would decide cases according to the rule of law from beginning to end,” she continued.

“In the rare circumstance that might ever arise – I can’t imagine one sitting here now – where I felt that I had some conscientious objection to the law, I would recuse,” she told Senator Hatch and his colleagues. “I would never impose my own personal convictions upon the law.”

 

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3 minutes ago, Psychopav said:

But that just makes her like Scalia.

Scalia never obeyed his husband...

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Just now, Stoneworker said:

Case closed. Move along.

But when asked by then-Sen. Orrin Hatch in her 2017 confirmation hearings how she would respond to Democrats’ concerns about the impact of her faith on her judicial decisions, she replied: “Senator, I see no conflict between having a sincerely held faith and duties as a judge.”

And were I confirmed as a judge, I would decide cases according to the rule of law from beginning to end,” she continued.

“In the rare circumstance that might ever arise – I can’t imagine one sitting here now – where I felt that I had some conscientious objection to the law, I would recuse,” she told Senator Hatch and his colleagues. “I would never impose my own personal convictions upon the law.”

 

oh.  Ok then.  As long as she says so.

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1 minute ago, Sinn Fein said:

oh.  Ok then.  As long as she says so.

:confused:

Haven't people been saying the question needs to be asked? Is the idea to ask but not accept her answer? If so, why ask?

 

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1 hour ago, The Z Machine said:

I'ma ask my buddy whose family was in it back in the day.

Here's what buddy's wrote about People of Praise:

"My family left when I was like 4 so I don’t remember it, but I’ve heard enough to know it’s homophobic, it funnels money and power to the leaders, very misogynistic, and ####ed up the childhoods for a lot of kids from my town, especially gay kids."

Here's what a childhood friend of his wrote about People of Praise and ACB.  As you can read, this woman has a very close connection with People of Praise.

"In my opinion & from my personal experience of being raised in this cult-ish group (The People of Praise), Amy Coney Barrett is absolutely the wrong person to sit on the Supreme Court. She cannot be trusted to make rational decisions that will greatly affect Americans. She will always have the Lord, Jesus Christ & the "Heads" of the community on her right shoulder governing how she will vote.

From what I understand, her husband could actually say 11no11 or "yes" to Amy accepting the nomination, after prayer and after consulting his head ... and up the chain of heads of heads. Amy Coney Barrett in a commencement speech to Notre Dame law students: "If you can keep in mind that your fundamental purpose in life is not to be a lawyer, but to know, love and serve God, you truly will be a different kind of lawyer."

I was raised in the PoP (People of Praise), I attended Trinity School, and had to sit through talks on what was expected of me as a female in my community and my family was kicked out when I was in 8th grade because our family no longer conformed to the strict rules of the "heads". The majority of the people who claimed to love me & support me & my family turned their backs on us. We were truly shunned and made to feel less than. I had to unlearn a lot of confusing messages taught to me from this community, including, but not limited to, the fact that women should be subservient to men, that being gay will automatically land you in an actual fiery hell, and had to learn as an adult that people actually can stick with you and love you through hard times. There has been a lot of discussions about this amongst my friends & family this week if the PoP could be considered a cult or not & if Margaret Atwood indeed used the PoP as inspiration for The Handmaid's Tale.

I can say this from my experience, the PoP definitely holds its members in a constant state of brainwash, Amy Coney Barrett chose, as an adult, to be a part of this group and the strong Dogma that is a part of her very being will not be able to separate church and state.

Sen. Dianne Feinstein to Amy: "I think in your case, professor ... the dogma lives loudly within you, and that is of concern."

I canNOT believe that she, of all people, could be sitting in Ruth Bader Ginsberg's seat on the Supreme Court .... RBG, who changed the world for women! Amy will take us so far back in time. It is blowing my mind that this is happening."

Edited by The Z Machine
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These questions about faith and the law need to be asked. Because they sure as #### would be if there was an atheist or a muslim up for a seat

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If they really want to get to the bottom of whether we should be concerned, they should ask her questions pertaining to obedience and loyalty.  The "weird" part about all this is that this People of Praise group is NOT a Catholic group, yet she is a Catholic who is also a member.  How do you practice Catholicism yet also enter into this "covenant" with this nondenominational group?  Questions that get to divided loyalties, obedience to specific teachings and practices, and how and why the PoP exists independent of any church authority may yield answers that paint her as mainstream or kook.

If I were to counsel nonbelievers, I'd suggest you pay attention to these things, not get hung up on wives obey your husbands and other standard issue Christian teachings taken out of context, but look to trusted people of faith to discern whether she's crazy or just dedicated.

Based on things others have written about her experiences in the legal field, it sounds like she is able to pretty well differentiate personal creed and the role of a justice in interpreting law.  Addressing questions pertaining to the nuance in her faith practice would help clarify that impression.

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11 minutes ago, Psychopav said:

Based on things others have written about her experiences in the legal field, it sounds like she is able to pretty well differentiate personal creed and the role of a justice in interpreting law.  Addressing questions pertaining to the nuance in her faith practice would help clarify that impression.

Isn't one of the issues with ACB is her lack of rulings from the federal bench?  Sure, she's written law review articles, but in order to form an opinion on whether her religious practices make their way into her rulings, we need to look at the rulings themselves.

Can any legal scholars comment on this?

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42 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

oh.  Ok then.  As long as she says so.

Some Catholics actually adhere to the Eighth Commandment. Especially under oath.

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2 hours ago, Henry Ford said:
On 9/28/2020 at 3:11 PM, Maurile Tremblay said:

There's an obvious (to me) difference between the following two questions:

1. Does capital punishment run afoul of the Eighth Amendment under a proper constitutional analysis?

2. Now that this defendant has been convicted by the jury, it is up to me to finally determine the appropriate sentence after weighing the various mitigating and aggravating circumstances -- should it be death or something else?

I don't know whether the second situation was the intended context for ACB's quotation above (and I'm aware it's now mooted by Hurst). But it is quite easy for me to imagine being able to put aside my personal views and decide issue #1 fairly while being unable to do so with issue #2.

I'm curious as to what circumstance you would be deciding #1 without considering whether a particular defendant will be put to death.

None. The issue relevant to recusal isn't "whether a particular defendant will be put to death." The issue is whether I can be impartial. Do you not believe that #1 and #2 can be rather different in that regard?

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3 hours ago, Sinn Fein said:

This group extends beyond a parish or diocese.  Its not Knights of Columbus.

The notion of women deferring to their husbands is a bit of a fringe movement, imo.

This really isn't fringe at all - but then again, it's not even really followed.  I've heard this phrase a million times in my life and very seldom does it play out the way people think.  I know very little about this group she belongs to but I would feel completely comfortable that the bolded won't impact her decision-making but I also have no issue with it at least being asked.  There's a reason we vet these folks.

 

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