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ConstruxBoy

***Official*** Christian Hackenberg Thread

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This thread will likely be me talking to myself since everyone has given up on him after two poor seasons under Franklin. But I still think there is hope.

 

Here are some mostly negative scouting takes from recently and before last season:

 

 

 

http://www.footballsavages.com/5-plays-christian-hackenberg-penn-state/

 

http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2016/1/20/10797246/nfl-draft-2016-christian-hackenberg-scouting-report-penn-state-quarterback-eagles?utm_campaign=bennatanfs&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

 

http://optimumscouting.com/draft/quantifying-quarterbacks-christian-hackenberg-and-a-fall-from-glory.html

 

http://footballgameplan.com/fbgp-scouting-report-christian-hackenberg/

 

 

And believe it or not, positive takes:

 

http://www.battleredblog.com/2016/1/27/10842470/the-film-room-christian-hackenberg-2016-scouting-report-texans-bill-obrien

http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/2016-nfl-draft/2016/02/17/christian-hackenberg-on-three-synchronized-passing/

 

Measured 9 inch hands at the combine, which is below the preferred 9.5 inch hands for a QB. I can say that I honestly saw him drop or juggle some balls as a college QB that made me wonder if his hands were on the smaller size. However, the college ball is a little thicker than the NFL ball, and if this link is any indication, I don't think his small hands have spread to other body parts:

Tatum

 

Finally a fun fact: Any passing yardage in the NFL that Hackenberg accumulates will add to an existing record:

 

http://www.footballperspective.com/passing-yardage-is-still-for-lovers/

 

He is a Valentine's Day baby as well. Just turned 21 yesterday.

 

 

 

Edited by ConstruxBoy
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NFL Media analyst Bucky Brooks compares Penn State Christian Hackenberg to Jay Cutler.

 

"Classic dropback passer with a strong arm and prototypical physical dimensions. Hackenberg not only looks like the traditional franchise quarterback, but he flashes the talent and potential to play the position at a high level," Brooks wrote. "The Penn State product capably makes every throw in the book with zip and velocity, exhibiting A+ arm strength on throws at intermediate and deep range." Of course, Hack's past two seasons have mostly been a display of all of Cutler's worst qualities. "Despite immense physical tools, Hackenberg is one of the draft's biggest enigmas due to his poor accuracy and questionable judgment," Brooks wrote. "He misses the mark too often on routine throws and his errant passes frequently result in turnovers." Hackenberg, who measured in to the Combine at 6-foot-4 3/8, 223 pounds with 9-inch hands, threw 31 interceptions in only 38 games. Brooks sees the Texans, Cardinals, Eagles, Steelers and Chargers as fits.
 
 
Source: NFL.com 
Feb 26 - 2:25 PM

 

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I'm betting on Hack to be successful at the NFL level...as long as he gets some needed time to get re-familiarized with the NFL way of doing things. BO'B recruited him out of HS as a top caliber pro-style prospect for his pro-style offense, and he performed pretty well considering how hamstrung the PSU program was, in terms of the scholarship limits imposed by the Sandusky sanctions. If you look at Hack in that context, BO'B and Hack both made chicken salad out of chicken####. Under James Franklin, it was undeniably a case of 'square peg/round hole', as the Franklin offense is a marked contrast from both the BO'B offense and anything consistently and successfully run at the NFL level. I think Hack needs to be drafted into a situation where he can watch and learn, not so much because of any lack of skills or attributes, but more so he has time to 'unlearn' some of the mindset and mechanics stuff he's been forced to learn and execute under Franklin. Cardinals, Steelers, Chargers, sure. Texans...I'd love to see him re-united with BO'B, but the situation for Houston would almost have to be identical to last year, where they almost have to be willing to mortgage the 16-17 Season with a couple of journeyman QB's while allowing Hack time to marinate with an NFL playbook, and tutelage from BO'B. I think playing the long-view game would result in a worthwhile sustained payoff, but I'm unsure if Ownership or the fans would be amenable to what a season like that might look like...although they might be tempered by 2015's results. With Hoyer/Mallett at the helm. AJ leaving for Indy and Foster going down in the preseason, and the defense looking average at best for at least for the early going, I was as surprised as anyone that they rallied from 1-5 to 9-7, and hosting a playoff game...if that's enough capital to buy a mulligan...yeah, I'd love to see him re-united with BO'B.

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Ya I definitely think Heckenberg can do it at an NFL level. When O'Brien left, that program took a little bit of a nose dive scheme and talent wise. Look what he did under proper coaching with OB. If he can get that same thing at the NFL level he can be a steal in the later rounds of the actual NFL draft and could drop to a desirable spot in 2 QB leagues. 

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Hack to Houston is so obvious that is almost cannot happen.  

 

I also liked the original post because Construx Boy has a depressingly small number of likes.  

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NFL Media's Kimberly Jones spoke with one NFL evaluator who believes "one way or another" Penn State QB Christian Hackenberg will find himself in Houston with the Texans.

 

Another coach added Hackenberg "has everything you want physically." It will be a common connection, linking Hackenberg with his former head coach Bill O'Brien. The same route was taken with Doug Marrone and Ryan Nassib, Chip Kelly and all Oregon players and Pete Carroll and USC players. If the Texans do select Hackenberg, we hope it is not in round one.
 
 
Source: NFL.com
Mar 3 - 11:19 AM

 

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Pro Football Focus:

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“Looks the part” is the nicest thing that has been said about Hackenberg the last two seasons, and we’re not really sure how much that’s worth. The on-field play has been subpar by every measure, and most point to 2013 as the glimmer of hope in Hackenberg’s upside. We are in the process of going back to grade every play from that season, but the last two years of evidence that saw him rank among the worst quarterbacks in the country is not encouraging.

They rate him as an UDFA.

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An NFL scout who spoke with the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel said that Penn State QB Christian Hackenberg has "an incredible amount of talent."

 

Hackenberg is the draft-equivalent of Michael Meyers. No matter how many questionable on-field decisions on his ledger--and there's a ton of them--his hype as a draft prospect just refuses to die. "He could be as talented as any of these quarterbacks. He's got the arm, the body and is actually a competitor," one scout told the Journal-Sentinel. That scout blames HC James Franklin and the Penn State staff for "not playing to his strengths." That's probably true, but the 6-foot-4, 212-pounder simply hasn't performed like a first-round pick over the last two seasons. So of course, that scout says that he "could see [Hackenberg] going latter part of the first round." He's been linked to the Texans due to his familiarity with HC Bill O'Brien.

 

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I know it's uncommon to see a player with a draft position agreed upon by everyone, but anywhere between Round 1 and UDFA is quite a large spread.  He succeeded in O'Brien's offense when he had several talented players around him, and floundered in the offence brought by Franklin, with less than talented players around him.  My guess right now is he goes to the Texans in Round 2 or 3.  He'll be thanking heaven for having an amazing WR in Hopkins and a great RB in Elliott (if he falls that far in the first).

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3 hours ago, steelers1080 said:

I know it's uncommon to see a player with a draft position agreed upon by everyone, but anywhere between Round 1 and UDFA is quite a large spread.  He succeeded in O'Brien's offense when he had several talented players around him, and floundered in the offence brought by Franklin, with less than talented players around him.  My guess right now is he goes to the Texans in Round 2 or 3.  He'll be thanking heaven for having an amazing WR in Hopkins and a great RB in Elliott (if he falls that far in the first).

The line was among the worst in CFB last year, that certainly didn't help. 

He has the physique and the tools, not sure if he has the head for the NFL.  I can see him emerging as a starter in a few years but if this guy is rushed, it's going to end really badly. 

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27 minutes ago, George Jefferson Airplane said:

The line was among the worst in CFB last year, that certainly didn't help. 

He has the physique and the tools, not sure if he has the head for the NFL.  I can see him emerging as a starter in a few years but if this guy is rushed, it's going to end really badly. 

His accuracy is the part that will scare away most NFL teams.  Some team will draft him though.  And as pointed out by Mr. Airplane, he needs to sit for at least a year since he is not ready for the NFL right now. 

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13 hours ago, steelers1080 said:

I know it's uncommon to see a player with a draft position agreed upon by everyone, but anywhere between Round 1 and UDFA is quite a large spread.  He succeeded in O'Brien's offense when he had several talented players around him, and floundered in the offence brought by Franklin, with less than talented players around him.  My guess right now is he goes to the Texans in Round 2 or 3.  He'll be thanking heaven for having an amazing WR in Hopkins and a great RB in Elliott (if he falls that far in the first).

His performance in O'Brien's offense wasn't that successful. In passing efficiency rating, he ranked 62nd out 112 QBs with 200+ attempts that season. He was also slightly below average by my numbers in 2013, both in his overall rating (59th out of 100) and in each one of the 4 components (adj third down conversion rate, red zone TD rate, first downs per attempt, and adj yards per attempt).

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21 hours ago, ZWK said:

His performance in O'Brien's offense wasn't that successful. In passing efficiency rating, he ranked 62nd out 112 QBs with 200+ attempts that season. He was also slightly below average by my numbers in 2013, both in his overall rating (59th out of 100) and in each one of the 4 components (adj third down conversion rate, red zone TD rate, first downs per attempt, and adj yards per attempt).

Very true,  although I think the main thing people saw in 2013 was great success from a relative point of view. Relative being an 18 year old true Freshman non-early enrollee. So the idea was that he would grow a lot from there and be a Luck, Brady, etc. type player by year 3 or 4. That didn't happen of course, but I would guess that he still learned some things just through experience the last two years, even in a bad fitting offense, that had he known in 2013, would have raised some of those 2013 numbers quite a bit. O'Brien has also said he didn't really open up the playbook until near the end of the season.

Of course, ifs and buts, candy and nuts and all that.

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Rookie Scouting Portfolio's Matt Waldman noted that "[t]he flashes of conceptual acumen show up on occasion" for Penn State QB Christian Hackenberg.

 
"What will matter most for the NFL team that selects Hackenberg is if they are accurate in believing that the quarterback’s best has yet to come," Waldman writes. He specifically highlights one of Hackenberg's worst attributes--his issues with passing speed. Waldman breaks down two plays against Michigan State. In the first, Hack rolled to the right to avoid red zone pressure and fired a needlessly hard-thrown missile that bounced off his receiver's hands incomplete. But in that same game, Hack showed the "conceptional acumen" that occasionally crops up, when he put more air under the ball. That one resulted in a touchdown. Waldman concluded that whichever team drafts Hack "will need to be right about the reasons for Hackenberg’s struggles and even more correct about why there’s a light at the end of the tunnel for his development track and it’s not a train."
 
Mar 8 - 7:26 PM
 

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Interesting to see the Texans grab Osweiler. Means that no way they take Hack, or any QB, in at least the first 2 rounds. Wonder what he is thinking tonight.

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1 hour ago, ConstruxBoy said:

Interesting to see the Texans grab Osweiler. Means that no way they take Hack, or any QB, in at least the first 2 rounds. Wonder what he is thinking tonight.

 

Quote

The Texans' signing of QB Brock Osweiler to a four-year, $72 million contract on Wednesday all but guarantees that they won't use a premium pick (or any pick period) on a quarterback in April's draft.

 

For more than a year we've read that Penn State QB Christian Hackenberg was earmarked for Houston and former coach Bill O'Brien, with whom he played under as a freshman. That obviously won't be happening now, barring a Hackenberg freefall into Day 3.
 
 
Mar 9 - 4:14 PM

 

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I'm a PSU alum, so I'm rooting for Hack anyway. But I find him fascinating because to me, he could be a "canary in the coalmine."

Let me explain.

NFL draft "experts" fall into two camps: mock draft experts and ranking experts. There is a difference. A mock draft should be done to match the needs/tendencies of a NFL teams with the available prospects. It really has little to do with how well those prospects will ultimately perform in the NFL. They are "right" if they match the teams or range of draft with the prospect.

The ranking/tape/scout expert is much more interested in how those prospects perform in the NFL, draft position/stock be damned. There is nothing right or wrong about either group, as long as they are easily identified.

In my experience of following drafts for too long to remember, most folks that start as ranking/tape/scout guys quickly gravitate to mock draft guys. Even if they don't do mock drafts. The reason is simple. It's easier to match team with need, and people remember mock draft success (1st round only, of course) longer than they remember NFL success (multi-year by nature). The secret to being a mock draft guy is to listen to/get NFL team draft rumors and work those into your mock. You're more likely to be correct, regardless of how well those prospects ultimately do in the NFL.

So I prefer to understand which is which, or who is who, when I read draft news. In my experience, lots of guys who started as scout/tape guys are really mock draft guys. Kiper, Mayock, jeremiah, Brugler are all guys that seemed like scout guys at first, but seemed to quickly become mock draft guys. It's really more financially advantageous to try to mock what the NFL is going to do. I don't blame them. 

But there are still guys like Josh Norris and Matt Waldman (still holding on Alvin Pearman, Matt) who give a true scout/tape perspective. They're really much more helpful for fantasy football  purposes. To tap the breaks on the draft order avalanche.

So someone like Hackenberg is fascinating because his tape/stats are terrible (although I truly think he's much better than that), but his NFL draft rumor love (late first/early second) could be much higher than his scout/tape value (late second/early third). So it will be very interesting to me to see if he suddenly moves up in someone's "ranking" into a late first/early second round prospect. Even more so if he is drafted there. That will show you who is more interested in "mocking the draft" then giving you their true view of NFL potential.

Edited by ConstruxBoy
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On March 6, 2016 at 7:29 AM, steelers1080 said:

I know it's uncommon to see a player with a draft position agreed upon by everyone, but anywhere between Round 1 and UDFA is quite a large spread.  He succeeded in O'Brien's offense when he had several talented players around him, and floundered in the offence brought by Franklin, with less than talented players around him.  My guess right now is he goes to the Texans in Round 2 or 3.  He'll be thanking heaven for having an amazing WR in Hopkins and a great RB in Elliott (if he falls that far in the first).

Anyone that considers him an UDFA simply doesn't know football. He needs to be drafted by the right team and given some time to undo the damage done by Franklin, but he can succeed in the league.

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I'm a big fan of his "dreaded" potential.  Love his football IQ and the way he reads a defense.  Most of all, he doesn't shrink under pressure.  That said, Hack doesn't belong in the first round. Take a shot on a talented QB with franchise potential on day 2.  

Hack's footwork from the gun is atrocious and very correctable.  I believe footwork, surrounding talent and BOB leaving town spelled his doom at PSU.  Going to a blue chip team that will give him a chance to learn from a pro is the perfect situation for this kid.  Give him a mentor and a shot to grow into the position.  If you throw him to the wolves in Cleveland, the kid might at well shack up with Tim Couch.

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On the one hand, where's his 'people' on this?  He hasn't been coached to say the right things?

On the other hand, if you loved Hackenburg, and were hoping to get him in the 3rd round, this is exactly the kind of story you would leak.  

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A couple more notes:

 

The RSP is out and Waldman, as we might expect, dislikes Hackenberg. I think he has him ranked 18 or 19 among QBs.

 

On the other hand, this guy, has him atop the QB ranking. So at least some people see what I see.

 

And there is a review here that uses the dreaded "Brady" compare, but changes that into an Eli compare, which I like and can see. Not sure Hack can do the Manning Face though.

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One other quick thing: based on a twitter conversation, I was looking up which of the top 5 QBs (in my mind at the time) had the most 4th quarter or OT comeback wins. I couldn't find easy data for Wentz like the D1A guys so I skipped him. Cook was the most impressive with 7 comeback wins, including 3 bowl games and 2 B1G Championship games. Then Hack at 6 with Goff and Lynch at 4.

Edited by ConstruxBoy
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Uh-oh. If people are writing articles about Hack that aren't universally negative the last couple of days, that means the PFF guys must have started attacking him again. Need to check twitter.

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1 hour ago, ConstruxBoy said:

Uh-oh. If people are writing articles about Hack that aren't universally negative the last couple of days, that means the PFF guys must have started attacking him again. Need to check twitter.

LMAO, yep. Some negative tweets about him from the PFF guys yesterday. Gotta love it. Amazing how almost angry the reaction is to Hackenberg by some people.

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26 minutes ago, ConstruxBoy said:

LMAO, yep. Some negative tweets about him from the PFF guys yesterday. Gotta love it. Amazing how almost angry the reaction is to Hackenberg by some people.

He's been one of the more polarizing QB prospects in this draft, which I didn't see coming.  He has his flaws that were showcased the past two seasons but playing behind that OL, which had to have been the worse that PSU has ever had, did him no favors.  He is a pocket passer and he was playing in a spread offense, also a mismatch.  If he is developed correctly from whomever drafts him he can end up being a great QB.

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:lmao:

PFF now going all in on Hackenberg, saying he is undraftable.

 

PFF

 

I mean, if Hackenberg is even average in the NFL these guys at PFF are going to look like dip ####s. Why go so all in on a player in a negative way like that? Amazing.

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1 hour ago, ConstruxBoy said:

:lmao:

PFF now going all in on Hackenberg, saying he is undraftable.

 

PFF

 

I mean, if Hackenberg is even average in the NFL these guys at PFF are going to look like dip ####s. Why go so all in on a player in a negative way like that? Amazing.

Hilarious. He goes no later than the 3rd.

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The meat of that article is laughable, and just goes to show that data is data, and depending on the who's and how's of manipulating it, anyone can come to their own unique conclusions. It's going to be a pleasure stuffing crow down their throats when Hack shows out. It's unfortunate that he ran his mouth about Franklin, but it'd be a lot worse if he was not only running his mouth, but lying, as well. I don't have anything much against Franklin (yet). I want to give him a few years with his own Players before I pass final judgement, but there's no question that 2014 and 2015 were a case of square peg/round hole. If I'm not mistaken, Hack was the #1 Pro-Style prospect coming out of HS. If he's drafted by a Team that has a QB guru on the staff, and they can invest some time in his development, I'd say the odds are pretty good he'll have a decent chance at becoming something at the NFL level.

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ESPN's Jon Gruden wrote that he would be "shocked" if Penn State QB Christian Hackenberg is not selected on Day 1.

 

Let us state upfront and on the record that Rotoworld's collective NFL Draft coverage team would not be shocked if Hack failed to scrape the first round. We don't see him as a first-round prospect at this point, period. But let's see Gruden's spin game here. "What he showed during that first year at Penn State -- before the coaching change, before the system change, before all the things that derailed him -- would be enough for me to take this guy early," Gruden wrote in referencing Hackenberg's performance from 2013. The Monday Night Football personality believes he "just has to get in the right system with the right people and refocus on the small details." The 6-foot-4, 223-pounder is visiting the Redskins on Tuesday.
 
 
Source: ESPN Insider 
Apr 19 - 1:59 PM

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Was coming in here to say that Hack is on QB camp tonight at 8:30 East and I'm sure Gruden will say nice things about him.

Cue the negative tweets from the PFF guys in 3..2..1..

Edited by ConstruxBoy
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