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Bernie Sanders HQ! *A decent human being. (2 Viewers)

Statorama said:
Considering Trump or Hillary would be equally terrible Presidents, yes.
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Listen, I don't know if this is schtick or whatever, but here's a bit of experience.  I voted for Nader in 2000 on the idea that there just wasn't that much of a difference between Gore and Bush.  Then 9/11 happened, and instead of handling that tragedy in a way that could have strengthened US standing around the world, Bush took the opportunity to start an unnecessary and unfounded war so that the cronies of folks in his administration could get rich.  I can't imagine Gore would have taken that route.

The potential real world consequences of a Trump administration are staggering.  This is a guy with literally no experience doing anything except selling his own brand.  To say that Hillary, who has spent her entire life working in government, would be equally terrible to Trump, is a fallacy.  Full stop.  Vote for who you want, but don't lie to yourself about this.  The Presidency is not inconsequential.  

 
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RocStar said:
Listen, I don't know if this is schtick or whatever, but here's a bit of experience.  I voted for Nader in 2000 on the idea that there just wasn't that much of a difference between Gore and Bush.  Then 9/11 happened, and instead of handling that tragedy in a way that could have strengthened US standing around the world, Bush took the opportunity to start an unnecessary and unfounded war so that the cronies of folks in his administration could get rich.  

The potential real world consequences of a Trump administration are staggering.  This is a guy with literally no experience doing anything except selling his own brand.  To say that Hillary, who has spent her entire life working in government, would be equally terrible to Trump, is a fallacy.  Full stop.  Vote for who you want, but don't lie to yourself about this.  The Presidency is not inconsequential.  
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...and what exactly about Hillary's "experience" excites you?  Her shameful involvement regarding Benghazi?  Her undermining FOIA requests by keeping her governmental emails on a private server?

She's had an opportunity to show her stuff, and she's been a disaster.  There is NOTHING in her body of work that makes me confident that she'd be better than Trump.  Everyone likes to rag on Trump (who is at best a half-crazy blowhard) but people seem to be forgetting that Hillary is no prize either.  Things will be bad with her as president also.  There is no "good" solution here (unless she's rightfully indicted).

I'm saying that both candidates are bad.  Real bad.  Trying to parse them out in degrees of badness is a futile exercise.

ETA: It's like having a choice between eating a plain turd or a turd with corn in it.  There is no joy in saying "well, at least there's corn"

 
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Statorama said:
...and what exactly about Hillary's "experience" excites you?  Her shameful involvement regarding Benghazi?  Her undermining FOIA requests by keeping her governmental emails on a private server?

She's had an opportunity to show her stuff, and she's been a disaster.  There is NOTHING in her body of work that makes me confident that she'd be better than Trump.  Everyone likes to rag on Trump (who is at best a half-crazy blowhard) but people seem to be forgetting that Hillary is no prize either.  Things will be bad with her as president also.  There is no "good" solution here (unless she's rightfully indicted).

I'm saying that both candidates are bad.  Real bad.  Trying to parse them out in degrees of badness is a futile exercise.

ETA: It's like having a choice between eating a plain turd or a turd with corn in it.  There is no joy in saying "well, at least there's corn"
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I think you're saying you don't trust Hillary based on things she's done that literally every other Secretary of State has done in the last 30 years - fine - but you're comparing that to a man who has said that he would support a policy of torture and hunting down the families of suspected terrorists, has suggested that the current President is knowingly letting terrorists into the country, has indicated that an American-born federal judge can't do his job because his family is from Latin America, etc.  As I'm sure you know, I could go on. 

Politicians are dirty.  I won't argue with that.  You have to be an egomaniac crazy to even want to be President in my mind.  But Trump is something else entirely.  I'm baffled by the current conversation that accepts this race as a normal election between Republicans and Democrats and that Trump and Hillary are somehow equals.  This guy is a con artist, at best, and an absolute disaster waiting to happen at worst.  

Anyhow, I understand your pickle, and I hope that you feel good about your vote, no matter how it's cast.  (I'd feel better if you don't live in OH, PA or FL though!)    

 
RocStar said:
I think you're saying you don't trust Hillary based on things she's done that literally every other Secretary of State has done in the last 30 years - fine - but you're comparing that to a man who has said that he would support a policy of torture and hunting down the families of suspected terrorists, has suggested that the current President is knowingly letting terrorists into the country, has indicated that an American-born federal judge can't do his job because his family is from Latin America, etc.  As I'm sure you know, I could go on. 

Politicians are dirty.  I won't argue with that.  You have to be an egomaniac crazy to even want to be President in my mind.  But Trump is something else entirely.  I'm baffled by the current conversation that accepts this race as a normal election between Republicans and Democrats and that Trump and Hillary are somehow equals.  This guy is a con artist, at best, and an absolute disaster waiting to happen at worst.  

Anyhow, I understand your pickle, and I hope that you feel good about your vote, no matter how it's cast.  (I'd feel better if you don't live in OH, PA or FL though!)    
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:lmao:   Who is this??

 
urbanhack said:
but you are on board with that issue when it's democrats vs. republicans, right?
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I'm on board with that issue whenever folks are truly being disenfranchised. It gets stale when Bernie supporters use it as an excuse as to why he lost, when the facts suggest that Hillary was hurt far more by voters being disenfranchised that Bernie. :shrug:  

 
RocStar said:
Listen, I don't know if this is schtick or whatever, but here's a bit of experience.  I voted for Nader in 2000 on the idea that there just wasn't that much of a difference between Gore and Bush.  Then 9/11 happened, and instead of handling that tragedy in a way that could have strengthened US standing around the world, Bush took the opportunity to start an unnecessary and unfounded war so that the cronies of folks in his administration could get rich.  I can't imagine Gore would have taken that route.

The potential real world consequences of a Trump administration are staggering.  This is a guy with literally no experience doing anything except selling his own brand.  To say that Hillary, who has spent her entire life working in government, would be equally terrible to Trump, is a fallacy.  Full stop.  Vote for who you want, but don't lie to yourself about this.  The Presidency is not inconsequential.  
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That.

 
tommyGunZ said:
I'm on board with that issue whenever folks are truly being disenfranchised. It gets stale when Bernie supporters use it as an excuse as to why he lost, when the facts suggest that Hillary was hurt far more by voters being disenfranchised that Bernie. :shrug:  
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Does this take effort on your part or does it come naturally?? :lol:   

 
I'd actually say that it varies from state to state. Arizona's long lines probably cost Sanders a few percentage points since he did much better in day of voting than early voting. In New York though, Clinton's margins probably would have held up as her margins in Brooklyn were sizeable.

 
This campaign is about defeating Donald Trump, the Republican candidate for president. After centuries of racism, sexism and discrimination of all forms in our country we do not need a major party candidate who makes bigotry the cornerstone of his campaign. We cannot have a president who insults Mexicans and Latinos, Muslims, women and African-Americans. We cannot have a president who, in the midst of so much income and wealth inequality, wants to give hundreds of billions of dollars in tax breaks to the very rich. We cannot have a president who, despite all of the scientific evidence, believes that climate change is a hoax.

The major political task that we face in the next five months is to make certain that Donald Trump is defeated and defeated badly. And I personally intend to begin my role in that process in a very short period of time.

But defeating Donald Trump cannot be our only goal. We must continue our grassroots efforts to create the America that we know we can become. And we must take that energy into the Democratic National Convention on July 25 in Philadelphia where we will have more than 1,900 delegates.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/transcript-bernie-sanders-speech-in-burlington-vermont-224465#ixzz4BuVIJX2D
Follow us: @politico on Twitter | Politico on Facebook
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I recently had the opportunity to meet with Secretary Clinton and discuss some of the very important issues facing our country and the Democratic Party. It is no secret that Secretary Clinton and I have strong disagreements on some very important issues. It is also true that our views are quite close on others. I look forward, in the coming weeks, to continued discussions between the two campaigns to make certain that your voices are heard and that the Democratic Party passes the most progressive platform in its history and that Democrats actually fight for that agenda. I also look forward to working with Secretary Clinton to transform the Democratic Party so that it becomes a party of working people and young people, and not just wealthy campaign contributors: a party that has the courage to take on Wall Street, the pharmaceutical industry, the fossil fuel industry and the other powerful special interests that dominate our political and economic life.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/transcript-bernie-sanders-speech-in-burlington-vermont-224465#ixzz4BuVbV7uI
Follow us: @politico on Twitter | Politico on Facebook
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Dang, really disappointed Bernies just going to fall lockstep into "our team is better than your team" political tribalism.  Kind of thought he was above that.  I sincerely hope whatever Clinton promised him was worth it.

 
Statorama said:
Dang, really disappointed Bernies just going to fall lockstep into "our team is better than your team" political tribalism.  Kind of thought he was above that.  I sincerely hope whatever Clinton promised him was worth it.
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you mean like his life?    for some strange reason, it never ends well for people who cross the Clinton empire :tinfoilhat:

 
If anyone ever questions why I'm skeptical that Hillary will ever do anything to rock the boat with Wall Street or whether she is beholden to her big money donors, one need only to look as far as the Republicans on the NRA's payroll and the #### they're doing in the senate now re: gun control.

 
Idiot Boxer said:
If anyone ever questions why I'm skeptical that Hillary will ever do anything to rock the boat with Wall Street or whether she is beholden to her big money donors, one need only to look as far as the Republicans on the NRA's payroll and the #### they're doing in the senate now re: gun control.
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Hillary has a lot of big money donors - she's not going to be able to please them all.

 
Something has to give when you promise everything to everyone.  Money talks....that will be a theme that continues to hold true.  All you have to do is sit back and watch.

 
Henry Ford said:
Why, do they have conflicting interests?
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Rich people have been trying to swallow other rich people for decades now in our version of capitalism.

Their competitiveness is what keeps the current system from being 100% broken.

 
Paulymaggs said:
Rich people have been trying to swallow other rich people for decades now in our version of capitalism.

Their competitiveness is what keeps the current system from being 100% broken.
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Help me out.  What does citigroup want Clinton to do that Goldman Sachs doesn't?

 
Paulymaggs said:
Rich people have been trying to swallow other rich people for decades now in our version of capitalism.

Their competitiveness is what keeps the current system from being 100% broken.
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I don't see how any of this means we should believe HRC when she says she's serious about campaign finance reform, climate change or wall street reform, all of which are on her "platform"

The argument that politicians can accept money from special interests but act against those interests has pretty much been laid bare in the NRA/Gun Control legislation of late.  

A vast majority of Americans favor some reasonable gun control measures, whether it be restricting purchases to those on the no-fly list or closing the gun show loophole, but the politicians on the NRA's payroll won't allow any reasonable legislation through.

Do we honestly think HRC will be any different when it comes to Wall Street or Big Oil?

 
But IB, the Republican politicians who receive money from the NRA are open in their support of the positions the NRA wants. It's not like they're going back on earlier policy positions, which is what you're accusing Hillary of doing once she is elected. 

 
timschochet said:
But IB, the Republican politicians who receive money from the NRA are open in their support of the positions the NRA wants. It's not like they're going back on earlier policy positions, which is what you're accusing Hillary of doing once she is elected. 
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She may not be so transparent about it, but I definitely struggle with the concept of her taking large sums of money from them and doing anything more than a cursory nod towards any sort of regulation.  Pretty sure they expect something for the money they're spending.  

 
Idiot Boxer said:
She may not be so transparent about it, but I definitely struggle with the concept of her taking large sums of money from them and doing anything more than a cursory nod towards any sort of regulation.  Pretty sure they expect something for the money they're spending.  
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If I were a Wall Street corporation, I would be pouring money into Hillary's campaign in order to prevent Trump's anti-trade policies which would seriously damage the American economy. I would be willing to accept all of Hillary's proposed restrictions on Wall Street in exchange for NO TARIFFS. 

 
Henry Ford said:
Help me out.  What does citigroup want Clinton to do that Goldman Sachs doesn't?
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Sure, many of their interests overlap, but I was making the broader point that these entities do compete against each other and therefore, not overt collusion that a lot here have suggested.

 
Idiot Boxer said:
I don't see how any of this means we should believe HRC when she says she's serious about campaign finance reform, climate change or wall street reform, all of which are on her "platform"

The argument that politicians can accept money from special interests but act against those interests has pretty much been laid bare in the NRA/Gun Control legislation of late.  

A vast majority of Americans favor some reasonable gun control measures, whether it be restricting purchases to those on the no-fly list or closing the gun show loophole, but the politicians on the NRA's payroll won't allow any reasonable legislation through.

Do we honestly think HRC will be any different when it comes to Wall Street or Big Oil?
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I was responding to henry ford, but fwiw, I believe very, very little that comes out of HRC's mouth.

 
timschochet said:
If I were a Wall Street corporation, I would be pouring money into Hillary's campaign in order to prevent Trump's anti-trade policies which would seriously damage the American economy. I would be willing to accept all of Hillary's proposed restrictions on Wall Street in exchange for NO TARIFFS. 
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They were pouring money in before Trump became a serious candidate.  

 
Paulymaggs said:
Sure, many of their interests overlap, but I was making the broader point that these entities do compete against each other and therefore, not overt collusion that a lot here have suggested.
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NFL teams compete against each other, too. But they do manage to band together to violate antitrust laws on occasion.

Internal competition in a market doesn't mean that groups have competing interests when dealing with external forces.

 
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timschochet said:
Perhaps because Bernie Sanders had the same dangerous ideas about trade? 
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Of course....Bernie is very "dangerous" (your term) to large corporation bottom lines.  He's helpful to the middle class American trying to make his way.  Of course these corporations will tell you the "danger to our bottom line" is a "danger" to the economy.  You can choose to ignore data and believe that or trust the data.  Your choice.

 
timschochet said:
Perhaps because Bernie Sanders had the same dangerous ideas about trade? 
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Hooray, Captain Race To The Bottom Is Here!!! Tirelessly fighting for the "rights" of the filthy rich everywhere to make chattel of the rest of humanity, destroy the environment, and eliminate entire ecosystems all in the name of "free trade!"

 
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Statorama said:
Dang, really disappointed Bernies just going to fall lockstep into "our team is better than your team" political tribalism.  Kind of thought he was above that.  I sincerely hope whatever Clinton promised him was worth it.
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Not sure how anyone would have ever thought it would go differently. Bernie ran a great campaign and fell significantly short. He's intelligent enough to know that our next president is either going to be Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump. There is no way in hell he would ever support Cheeto Jesus and his 8 year-old temperament.

 
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