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Bernie Sanders HQ! *A decent human being. (2 Viewers)

Max Power said:
go on.... this should be good...
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Well it's the same argument, isn't it? "If Bloomberg had followed the rules he would have been on stage, we don't need to change the rules for him." "If the House had wanted Bolton they could have called him, its not our problem," etc. In both cases the public doesn't care about these crappy arguments. We benefit if Bolton testifies, because we get closer to the truth of the matter, and we benefit if Bloomberg shows up, because we get to hear viable candidates debate each other. That's what matters, not these silly rules.

Now, the truth is I believe that Bloomberg's appearance actually helps Bernie, because if Bloomberg attracts support it won't be from Bernie it will be from Biden. And although Bloomberg might be a stronger nominee than Biden, he's a weaker candidate for the nomination- because if Biden folds and it's Bernie vs Bloomberg, then the black vote is up for grabs, meaning that the progressive candidate should win. Blacks in the south are the only thing currently preventing Bernie from running away with this thing IO- there simply aren't enough of us centrist types to stop Bernie. So I really don't want to see Bloomberg do well. But that doesn't matter; he deserves to be on that stage.

 
Max Power said:
Probably not for Steyer, but I don't think it's good for the process.  Shouldn't everyone approach their campaigns knowing what the criteria to qualify for debates are?  
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I was asking if it might be bad for Bloomberg.  What if Michelle Obama got a wild hair? No debates for her? Anyway as far as I can tell Bloomberg is the only one running on my TV. They should want to debate him instead of dominating his message on my TV.

 
timschochet said:
Well it's the same argument, isn't it? "If Bloomberg had followed the rules he would have been on stage, we don't need to change the rules for him." "If the House had wanted Bolton they could have called him, its not our problem," etc. In both cases the public doesn't care about these crappy arguments. We benefit if Bolton testifies, because we get closer to the truth of the matter, and we benefit if Bloomberg shows up, because we get to hear viable candidates debate each other. That's what matters, not these silly rules.

Now, the truth is I believe that Bloomberg's appearance actually helps Bernie, because if Bloomberg attracts support it won't be from Bernie it will be from Biden. And although Bloomberg might be a stronger nominee than Biden, he's a weaker candidate for the nomination- because if Biden folds and it's Bernie vs Bloomberg, then the black vote is up for grabs, meaning that the progressive candidate should win. Blacks in the south are the only thing currently preventing Bernie from running away with this thing IO- there simply aren't enough of us centrist types to stop Bernie. So I really don't want to see Bloomberg do well. But that doesn't matter; he deserves to be on that stage.
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I don't see the Bolton correlation. 

While these might be silly rules.  Up until this point they have been enforced.  Yang missed the last debate because the polling criteria worked against him.  He deserved to be up on that stage, but no concessions were made.  Now a guy the DNC likes isn't meeting a threshold and all of sudden the rules are "silly".  It's crap and it's why the DNC continues to be a shady organization.  

 
Mile High said:
I was asking if it might be bad for Bloomberg.  What if Michelle Obama got a wild hair? No debates for her? Anyway as far as I can tell Bloomberg is the only one running on my TV. They should want to debate him instead of dominating his message on my TV.
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I think the more exposure for Bloomberg the better.  None of the other Dem candidates are moving the needle much these days.  Not that he is a game changer, but he may surprise.  

If Michelle enters the race she should have to jump through the same hoops any other nominee would have to jump through if they entered right now.  

 
Max Power said:
I don't see the Bolton correlation. 

While these might be silly rules.  Up until this point they have been enforced.  Yang missed the last debate because the polling criteria worked against him.  He deserved to be up on that stage, but no concessions were made.  Now a guy the DNC likes isn't meeting a threshold and all of sudden the rules are "silly".  It's crap and it's why the DNC continues to be a shady organization.  
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I don't think Max and I agree on much, but this is definitely one of them. There's zero excuse for the DNC to kowtow to a billionaire buying his way into the race late when those same rules lead to the exclusion of every POC that was running. This kind of shady stuff is a big part of what disgusts the younger generations about the establishment/centrist part of the Democratic party.

 
HellToupee said:
While the DNC establishment is pointing yelling "Look! Donald Trump is an awful human being and a terrible President!" They quietly work to rig another primary.  Shocking.
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:goodposting:

With the help of the “never Trumpers” trashing Sanders and backing Biden in the Washpo/NYT.

I’m glad to see that our Bernie supporting brethren are fully awake this time around to the DNC thievery.

 
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https://twitter.com/NathanJRobinson/status/1223631372868296704

Great thread on the race in Iowa.  You know I've loved teeing off on Biden, because of how demonstrably awful he is and how he would get curbstomped by Trump, but he poses a very serious threat if he manages to win Iowa.  You know the media coverage will snowball in Biden's favor if he wins.  Iowa's caucus system could very easily turn on what kind of turnout there is for Warren/Buttigieg.  

There's a little bit of the 'blame Nader' 'blame Stein' logic going on in the thread, which I've always historically disagreed with.  But I do think Warren's candidacy is doomed, that her actions in effect have been in support of Biden and underhanded against Sanders, and that if Iowans are serious about not throwing away a progressive platform to Biden, they should vote for Sanders.  The "unity" the two camps have embraced, until Warren shanked him in the back 2 weeks before the caucus, could end up screwing Sanders in Iowa. 

 
I was stopped today and asked to sign a petition to get Sanders on the ballot.
But I wasn't eligible to sign since I'm not a registered D. Which is ironic, since he isn't. either.....

 
Widbil83 said:
 Not a Moore fan, but this is a nice little rant.

Michael Moore (@MMFlint) explodes at the @DNC just now at a Bernie rally in Clive, Iowa: “The DNC will not allow Cory Booker on that stage, will not allow Julian Castro … but they’re going to allow Mike Bloomberg because HE HAS A BILLION ####### DOLLARS?!"

https://twitter.com/tomselliott/status/1223413799551741959?s=21
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Cory Booker and Julian Castro are still running for president?

 
Mile High said:
Cory Booker and Julian Castro are still running for president?
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He's saying the DNC could have changed the rules at any time previously, especially for a party that claims to make it such a priority to get a minority up in front of a national audience, and then here they go bending over backwards for the billionaire white guy who is tossing money at them.

 
If Bloomberg had continued to spend millions and climb in the polls without having to debate anyone, that wouldn’t have been fair either.

Frankly I think debating a billionaire former Republican who bought his way onto the stage will help Bernie’s case quite a bit.

 
caustic said:
If Bloomberg had continued to spend millions and climb in the polls without having to debate anyone, that wouldn’t have been fair either.

Frankly I think debating a billionaire former Republican who bought his way onto the stage will help Bernie’s case quite a bit.
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Yeah I'm not seeing the real downside for the candidates to debate a guy who is playing his message nonstop to the country without much resistance. 

 
Haven't seen this morning show before, and have some issue with The Hill generally, but I thought this was a very good segment on the appeal of wider progressive politics in the Midwest (focused on Iowa) and why there's crossover appeal between Trump and Sanders (and even AOC) in these areas.

 
mcintyre1 said:
Haven't seen this morning show before, and have some issue with The Hill generally, but I thought this was a very good segment on the appeal of wider progressive politics in the Midwest (focused on Iowa) and why there's crossover appeal between Trump and Sanders (and even AOC) in these areas.
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You’re going to need the union workers in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan to beat Trump. I am talking specifically about white union workers who in the past have voted Democrat but switched over the last time around. They voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012 and Trump in 2016. For the Democrat to win, we need to get them back. 

Now the polls suggest these white union workers like Obamacare. More importantly, they’ve negotiated their own healthcare packages with their employers, and they sacrificed their salaries to do so. And they like what they have now. So why would they choose to vote for a guy who says he’s going to throw the whole thing out and replace it with Medicare 4 All, and he’s going to raise taxes to do it? 

My answer is they won’t. If Bernie is the nominee his healthcare plan will scare them, and they’ll vote for Trump. And Trump will be re-elected because Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania are the states that count. 

Bernie Sanders generates more passion and excitement than any other candidate. Certainly a whole lot more than Biden. If Bernie is the nominee he’ll get more young people to vote than ever in our history.  There will be a record number of people voting and Bernie will win a resounding popular vote victory. And he’ll still lose the election because his large numbers won’t be in the right states. And that’s the ballgame. 

 
timschochet said:
You’re going to need the union workers in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan to beat Trump. I am talking specifically about white union workers who in the past have voted Democrat but switched over the last time around. They voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012 and Trump in 2016. For the Democrat to win, we need to get them back.
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If those union guys are watching FOX News, we’re not getting them back.  We need a new winning coalition.

 
timschochet said:
You’re going to need the union workers in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan to beat Trump. I am talking specifically about white union workers who in the past have voted Democrat but switched over the last time around. They voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012 and Trump in 2016. For the Democrat to win, we need to get them back. 

Now the polls suggest these white union workers like Obamacare. More importantly, they’ve negotiated their own healthcare packages with their employers, and they sacrificed their salaries to do so. And they like what they have now. So why would they choose to vote for a guy who says he’s going to throw the whole thing out and replace it with Medicare 4 All, and he’s going to raise taxes to do it? 

My answer is they won’t. If Bernie is the nominee his healthcare plan will scare them, and they’ll vote for Trump. And Trump will be re-elected because Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania are the states that count. 

Bernie Sanders generates more passion and excitement than any other candidate. Certainly a whole lot more than Biden. If Bernie is the nominee he’ll get more young people to vote than ever in our history.  There will be a record number of people voting and Bernie will win a resounding popular vote victory. And he’ll still lose the election because his large numbers won’t be in the right states. And that’s the ballgame. 
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No offense Tim, but I really don't trust you to deeply understand the political inclinations of union workers. Bernie enjoys wide support from union members across the country (and not just in liberal areas), I see no particular reason he'll somehow struggle with similar union members in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan. Frankly, I don't understand any union member who would be against MFA. If it happens, force the companies to renegotiate those benefits in light of change in medical coverage. If anything, the corporations negotiating with the union are losing a major leverage point against the workers if they're no longer able to reduce wages with an offset in medical coverage.

 
mcintyre1 said:
No offense Tim, but I really don't trust you to deeply understand the political inclinations of union workers. Bernie enjoys wide support from union members across the country (and not just in liberal areas), I see no particular reason he'll somehow struggle with similar union members in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan. Frankly, I don't understand any union member who would be against MFA. If it happens, force the companies to renegotiate those benefits in light of change in medical coverage. If anything, the corporations negotiating with the union are losing a major leverage point against the workers if they're no longer able to reduce wages with an offset in medical coverage.
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I'll give you two reasons why they aren't for MFA and for Obamacare:

1) They are in a clean insurance pool.  Generally speaking, if you're healthy enough to show up for work on a daily basis you are are going to be in better health.  Also if you are making better wages, you are more likely to be healthier.

2) Their healthcare benefits aren't tax whereas the equivalent wages would be.  The rest of the taxpayers are essentially subsidizing there insurance to an extent.

 
caustic said:
IMO the argument for Bernie’s electability is not that he’ll win over Obama-Trump voters but that he can bring back Obama voters who stayed home in 2016. Those folks tend to have an anti-establishment streak in them and really don’t like Trump.
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I agree, but I think it goes a lot further than this.  A ton of people don't vote because they think all politicians are the same, and nothing will ever change for them. For the most part they're not wrong. Bernie, on the other hand is offering them healthcare and a chance for their kids to go to college. This could bring out a massive amount of non-voters and be a game changer like Trump was.

 
Chris Matthews just now: 

“I’ve seen this before. Bernie Sanders is McGovern. He will lose badly to Trump.” 

He also thinks Bernie will win huge tonight. 

 
Man I sure hope you guys are right about Bernie because all the numbers look great for him. He’s even catching up in Biden’s firewall of South Carolina. 

 
timschochet said:
Man I sure hope you guys are right about Bernie because all the numbers look great for him. He’s even catching up in Biden’s firewall of South Carolina.
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They're not right about Bernie. He'll lose, and badly. I'm only extrapolating out of my own personal bubble, but I know too many moderates that will vote Trump if that's the case. 

 
rockaction said:
They're not right about Bernie. He'll lose, and badly. I'm only extrapolating out of my own personal bubble, but I know too many moderates that will vote Trump if that's the case. 
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Of course that’s what I think. But right now his surge is scary. If he wins tonight, wins New Hampshire, wins Nevada (all of which look probable) and closes strong in South Carolina, then there are two likely alternatives: 

1. He wins the nomination 

2. The Democratic establishment destroys him in a concerted, very ugly way which alienates his supporters, well beyond even how much they felt alienated last time around. 

Either result doesn’t sound too great for November does it? 

 
rockaction said:
They're not right about Bernie. He'll lose, and badly. I'm only extrapolating out of my own personal bubble, but I know too many moderates that will vote Trump if that's the case. 
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Counterpoint - I was having a conversation with my sister in law who HATES politics... despises it, pays zero attention, etc.  She is currently having a hard time financially and going through a nasty divorce.  I talked to her about Bernie's plans about healthcare and student loans and her eyes completely lit up and she asked me for more information on how she could go vote for him. 

I've been a broken record on this point but Sanders is the only candidate who has a real chance to dip into that massive group of people who never vote because "it doesn't matter to me anyway"

 
timschochet said:
Of course that’s what I think. But right now his surge is scary. If he wins tonight, wins New Hampshire, wins Nevada (all of which look probable) and closes strong in South Carolina, then there are two likely alternatives: 

1. He wins the nomination 

2. The Democratic establishment destroys him in a concerted, very ugly way which alienates his supporters, well beyond even how much they felt alienated last time around. 

Either result doesn’t sound too great for November does it? 
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I think things are way too early to speculate even. I can't help but think that the Democrats are still looking for candidates, actually, though it's real, real late in the game. 

 
KiddLattimer said:
Counterpoint - I was having a conversation with my sister in law who HATES politics... despises it, pays zero attention, etc.  She is currently having a hard time financially and going through a nasty divorce.  I talked to her about Bernie's plans about healthcare and student loans and her eyes completely lit up and she asked me for more information on how she could go vote for him. 

I've been a broken record on this point but Sanders is the only candidate who has a real chance to dip into that massive group of people who never vote because "it doesn't matter to me anyway"
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Fair enough. If he can tap into Trump's disaffected/disillusioned voter category then he has a chance. But right now President Trump has the unique ability to campaign as outsider while having locked down his base's vote. He can still tap into those waters heretofore ignored. 

 
KiddLattimer said:
I've been a broken record on this point but Sanders is the only candidate who has a real chance to dip into that massive group of people who never vote because "it doesn't matter to me anyway"
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Yeah and bring out the youth vote.

 
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rockaction said:
Fair enough. If he can tap into Trump's disaffected/disillusioned voter category then he has a chance. But right now President Trump has the unique ability to campaign as outsider while having locked down his base's vote. He can still tap into those waters heretofore ignored. 
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Yea I agree with that too... Trump is definitely going to be a tough out, I don't think enough people are taking his chances seriously enough (outside of this board of course).

Trump vs Bernie would be incredible to watch from a voter turnout standpoint... polls would be all over the place

 
rockaction said:
They're not right about Bernie. He'll lose, and badly. I'm only extrapolating out of my own personal bubble, but I know too many moderates that will vote Trump if that's the case. 
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Must be tough to have to choose between a great politician who genuinely cares for and wants the best for people, and a pathetic man baby who cries when he doesn’t get his way, while committing as many crimes needed to get his way.

Sounds like quite a bubble you roll with.

 
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