What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

Bernie Sanders HQ! *A decent human being. (3 Viewers)

I may need to be out of this discussion - when I appear to be the “voice of reason” or dissension when it comes to Trump I think it’s best I bow out.  I think he’s the worst POTUS ever and a horrible human being - I have no interest spending any more time “defending” him.
I mean this with kindness, but what you call being the “voice of reason” I would characterize as Pollyanna-ish self-deception.

 
It depends what your point is.

If your argument is "the way Sanders talks about this stuff will hurt his election prospects," I agree tha question isn't particularly relevant.

But your posts seem to be suggesting that Sanders actually wants to be some sort of left wing dictator.  If that's what you're suggesting, I think it's worth following up.  Because I've seen Bernie in dozens of speeches and debates talk about Denmark and the Nordic model, etc.  I've never once heard him affirmatively bring up Cuba or some Latin American country as something we should be emulating here.  
Exactly this.

 
Bernie isn't making this easy on himself.

I guess when you can't explain how we're going to pay for one program, why not double down.  If you follow the Wealth Tax thread you'll see a recent study that showed over 50% of this tax will trickle down to middle class.  
Fortunately the myth that conservatives care about paying for legislation before passing it has been completely shattered with this administration/congress, so Bernie should waste zero energy worrying about critics who complain about deficit spending.  

 
I would invite everyone to look into the literacy program a touch deeper.  It was literally (see what I did there?) a propaganda system.  It’s good that they taught people to read, but it was done using “reading materials” that explain the awesomeness of Castro’s revolution and systemic changes for Cuba.  It’s basically the same as Bible outreach literacy programs - teaching people to read by (and for the express purpose of) indoctrination.  
I tried to search online to find out more (I don't remember learning about the program before today) but I didn't come up with much negative.  In fact, most of what I read seems to support Bernie's view that the program was successful without much criticism.  

How bad was the propaganda in  Venceremos?  I'd like to learn about that.

(For the record, I'm not trying to argue, I'm honestly curious.)

 
I tried to search online to find out more (I don't remember learning about the program before today) but I didn't come up with much negative.  In fact, most of what I read seems to support Bernie's view that the program was successful without much criticism.  

How bad was the propaganda in  Venceremos?  I'd like to learn about that.

(For the record, I'm not trying to argue, I'm honestly curious.)
http://lasa.international.pitt.edu/LASA98/Supko.pdf

 
It depends what your point is.

If your argument is "the way Sanders talks about this stuff will hurt his election prospects," I agree tha question isn't particularly relevant.

But your posts seem to be suggesting that Sanders actually wants to be some sort of left wing dictator.  If that's what you're suggesting, I think it's worth following up.  Because I've seen Bernie in dozens of speeches and debates talk about Denmark and the Nordic model, etc.  I've never once heard him affirmatively bring up Cuba or some Latin American country as something we should be emulating here.  
I don't mean to be a smartass, but isn't there some idea that dictators don't start out wanting to be dictators? 

 
I don't mean to be a smartass, but isn't there some idea that dictators don't start out wanting to be dictators? 
If @IvanKaramazov wants to make the argument that Sanders doesn't want to be a dictator now, but he will if he becomes President, he can try.  That's not the way I read his posts though.  When IK says Bernie's spent his career apologizing for Soviet-style regimes, or when he won't even acknowledge that Bernie wants to have the Nordic model in the United States rather than the Cuban model, that seems to me to be argument made in bad faith.

 
If @IvanKaramazov wants to make the argument that Sanders doesn't want to be a dictator now, but he will if he becomes President, he can try.  That's not the way I read his posts though.  When IK says Bernie's spent his career apologizing for Soviet-style regimes, or when he won't even acknowledge that Bernie wants to have the Nordic model in the United States rather than the Cuban model, that seems to me to be argument made in bad faith.
Why would he be required to take Bernie at his current word and not his last word, or the word prior, or his previous actions?  Just because you trust him doesn’t mean everybody should.

These are all well seasoned politicians with big money and staff behind them.  They aren’t choir boys.  They know how to play the political game.

 
Why would he be required to take Bernie at his current word and not his last word, or the word prior, or his previous actions?  Just because you trust him doesn’t mean everybody should.

These are all well seasoned politicians with big money and staff behind them.  They aren’t choir boys.  They know how to play the political game.
If he really believes Sanders wants to emulate Cuba he could have answered Redmond's question in that way.  

 
Where do you see the problem in that?

Personally I think it makes sense to have federal standards when it comes to education.
Some standards, sure.  Ironically, the Nordic model is a great example of the power of local control.

 
Why would he be required to take Bernie at his current word and not his last word, or the word prior, or his previous actions?  Just because you trust him doesn’t mean everybody should.

These are all well seasoned politicians with big money and staff behind them.  They aren’t choir boys.  They know how to play the political game.
There is a reason sanders chose "Democratic socialist" instead of "Nordic Model Enthusiast". There is a reason he started a PAC called "Our revolution". There is a reason he defends aspects of soviet style regimes. There is a reason he does nothing to curtail his crazed enthusiasts. There is a reason he trickled out his plan for large companies to begin turning over ownership to employees. 

And I don't think it is just that people are misunderstanding poor old bernie. 

 
There is a reason sanders chose "Democratic socialist" instead of "Nordic Model Enthusiast". There is a reason he started a PAC called "Our revolution". There is a reason he defends aspects of soviet style regimes. There is a reason he does nothing to curtail his crazed enthusiasts. There is a reason he trickled out his plan for large companies to begin turning over ownership to employees. 

And I don't think it is just that people are misunderstanding poor old bernie. 
Well, don't leave us hanging, what's the reason?

 
If @IvanKaramazov wants to make the argument that Sanders doesn't want to be a dictator now, but he will if he becomes President, he can try.  That's not the way I read his posts though.  When IK says Bernie's spent his career apologizing for Soviet-style regimes, or when he won't even acknowledge that Bernie wants to have the Nordic model in the United States rather than the Cuban model, that seems to me to be argument made in bad faith.
Why do you think Sanders has such a difficult time saying something like "Yeah, the Castro regime was pretty terrible" without adding a "but" and then going on to tell us about the great things they did?

 
"Bernie doesn't actually want to recreate a Cuban-style communist totalitarianism in the US, he just has a weird romantic attachment to Cuban-style communist totalitarianism.  I mean, who doesn't?"

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Why do you think Sanders has such a difficult time saying something like "Yeah, the Castro regime was pretty terrible" without adding a "but" and then going on to tell us about the great things they did?
Because that's the way he feels about Cuba?

Why do you think he said what he said?

Seems like lots of people are claiming Sanders has some secret nefarious plot but I'm just not sure what that's supposed to be.

 
Because that's the way he feels about Cuba?

Why do you think he said what he said?

Seems like lots of people are claiming Sanders has some secret nefarious plot but I'm just not sure what that's supposed to be.
Thanks.  I don't think there's any nefarious plot here either.  I think Sanders says nice things about Castro because he likes Castro.  Lots of hard-left types from his generation hold that view.  

 
Thanks.  I don't think there's any nefarious plot here either.  I think Sanders says nice things about Castro because he likes Castro.  Lots of hard-left types from his generation hold that view.  
I think that is true. And I think it is weird and short-sighted.

But I don't think it will drive his policy decisions or behaviors. So while I find it odd and distasteful, I don't see his odd emotional attachment to an authoritarian leader of another country as a risk factor.

That stands in contrast with a certain current President of the US.

 
Why do you think Sanders has such a difficult time saying something like "Yeah, the Castro regime was pretty terrible" without adding a "but" and then going on to tell us about the great things they did?
I think the "but" part is because he thinks that bringing up Cuba and Castro is often meant as an implicit way to discredit anything that could be tied to any form of "socialism", democratic or otherwise. I think that sometimes is the case, but I also think he would benefit from being far more pointed in his criticism of places like Cuba and Venezuela. 

 
I think if you're anti-Bernie, the big question you should be asking yourself is "How did he get here?"  I know the easy answer is that his supporters don't want to work/are lazy etc. etc........but is that it?

 
It doesn’t matter who wins the democratic nomination, but Bernie Sanders?

Are there a bunch of people who actually believe he’d make a good POTUS? Have we fallen that far as a nation? Unbelievable.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
It doesn’t matter who wins the democratic nomination, but Bernie Sanders?

Are there a bunch of people who actually believe he’d make a good POTUS? Have we fallen that far? Unbelievable.
Our current President is a reality TV star who never served a day in office before becoming POTUS.

And something like 60 million people voted for him, so there you go.

 
Our current President is a reality TV star who never served a day in office before becoming POTUS.

And something like 60 million people voted for him, so there you go.
Don't forget his history of business failures, being banned from running a charity for misappropriation of funds, and like six other things that alone ought to have been disqualifying.

Sanders is a bit to the left of me, but he has been a Senator for 40 years. Before that, he was a mayor. He is capable of giving detailed and nuanced answers to difficult questions. I may not always agree with his viewpoint, but he is massively qualified compared to the incumbent.

 
Don't forget his history of business failures, being banned from running a charity for misappropriation of funds, and like six other things that alone ought to have been disqualifying.

Sanders is a bit to the left of me, but he has been a Senator for 40 years. Before that, he was a mayor. He is capable of giving detailed and nuanced answers to difficult questions. I may not always agree with his viewpoint, but he is massively qualified compared to the incumbent.
It's kind of funny to see people squirm on the topic.

They know they've been told Bernie is super-extreme and out of his mind, but they have a tougher time when it gets down to actual specifics.

I mean Trump said he'd build a wall and Mexico would pay for it.

But Bernie's the crazy one with all of his impossible proposals!

 
It's kind of funny to see people squirm on the topic.

They know they've been told Bernie is super-extreme and out of his mind, but they have a tougher time when it gets down to actual specifics.

I mean Trump said he'd build a wall and Mexico would pay for it.

But Bernie's the crazy one with all of his impossible proposals!
I relate to those feelings. Four years ago I was massively anti-Trump, and only slightly less anti-Sanders.

Then something weird happened: I started to really examine the problems that Sanders is talking about in an evidence-based way. And I came to the conclusion that I wasn't being very logical. So I watched some longer form interviews with him and really listened to what he had to say (and what he didn't). And now I would call myself a moderately energized supporter.

 
I guess to make a broader point, so often in the past there's been a sharp division between left and right, between capitalist and communist or socialist. And especially in the Americas, that's been a big debate, right? Oh, you know, you're a capitalist Yankee dog, and oh, you know, you're some crazy communist that's going to take away everybody's property. And I mean, those are interesting intellectual arguments, but I think for your generation, you should be practical and just choose from what works. You don't have to worry about whether it neatly fits into socialist theory or capitalist theory -- you should just decide what works.

And I said this to President Castro in Cuba. I said, look, you've made great progress in educating young people. Every child in Cuba gets a basic education -- that's a huge improvement from where it was. Medical care -- the life expectancy of Cubans is equivalent to the United States, despite it being a very poor country, because they have access to health care. That's a huge achievement. They should be congratulated. But you drive around Havana and you say this economy is not working. It looks like it did in the 1950s. And so you have to be practical in asking yourself how can you achieve the goals of equality and inclusion, but also recognize that the market system produces a lot of wealth and goods and services. And it also gives individuals freedom because they have initiative.

And so you don't have to be rigid in saying it’s either this or that, you can say -- depending on the problem you're trying to solve, depending on the social issues that you're trying to address what works. And I think that what you’ll find is that the most successful societies, the most successful economies are ones that are rooted in a market-based system, but also recognize that a market does not work by itself. It has to have a social and moral and ethical and community basis, and there has to be inclusion. Otherwise it’s not stable.

And it’s up to you -- whether you're in business or in academia or the nonprofit sector, whatever you're doing -- to create new forms that are adapted to the new conditions that we live in today.
Any guesses as to who said this and when?

Barack Obama, 2016

 
Last edited by a moderator:
It doesn’t matter who wins the democratic nomination, but Bernie Sanders?

Are there a bunch of people who actually believe he’d make a good POTUS? Have we fallen that far as a nation? Unbelievable.
Yea..what a crazy concept to govern and make legislation for the working and middle class people instead of doing it for the last 40 years for corporations and special interests.  

Isn't that why Trump got elected?  "Economic anxiety" from the working and middle class, no?

 
RL, terrific post.  Sometimes, we all need to stop.  Breathe.  And use reason and logic to assess the candidates.  Some, many or most of the people on this site are intelligent and use reason as the basis for decision making.  Almost ANYONE is more qualified than trump.

 
I think if you're anti-Bernie, the big question you should be asking yourself is "How did he get here?"  I know the easy answer is that his supporters don't want to work/are lazy etc. etc........but is that it?
It's only the easy answer because it's a dumb answer.  I think the problem is people are tired of working their asses off for years and getting nowhere while the rich get richer.  They are tired of being one health issue away from being bankrupt and possibly homeless.  They are tired of going 10's of thousands of dollars in to debt to try and make a better life for themselves and their family.  I know very few people who legitimately are just lazy and tired of working and just want #### for free.  It's a straw man.

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top