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Bernie Sanders HQ! *A decent human being. (2 Viewers)

The right has also, inadvertently perhaps, softened the sting of the communist label by spending decades associating progressivism with socialism and socialism with communism, and arguing that free-market capitalism in a democratic framework is the only way to deliver prosperity. A “binary framing” dominated 20th-century politics, Lawrence Glickman, a historian at Cornell, told me, in which redistributive policies “might through the slippery slope lead to something dangerous, even totalitarianism.” The New Deal was often described in the 1930s and ’40s as a “wolf in sheep’s clothing” or a “Trojan horse,” he said.

Now that kind of argument sounds more like crying wolf. Facing yawning inequality, heavy debt burdens, obscene costs of living, and stagnant wages, young people have warmed up to redistributive politics. “People understand that countries like the United Kingdom and Canada have free public-health systems,” Uetricht told me. “They think, ‘We’re rich! We could have that!’ If you respond, ‘Authoritarianism is scary!’ it sounds like you’re using the threat of authoritarianism to tell me why we can’t have a nice public-health system.”
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The Commish said:
To be clear, you are attempting to compare the numbers of a two person race and a 5-6 person race, yes?
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Yes. But in the case of South Carolina I don’t think it would have made much of a difference. 

Older black voters in the South still don’t seem to like Bernie Sanders. Younger ones do but they don’t vote. That was true in 2016 and it seems to be true today as well. 

 
Sounds like Bernie is in great shape for winning CA, TX, possible wins in MN and Mass, that eliminates Warren and Amy.  Joe will get some southern states, but not enough to beat the Bern.

 
timschochet said:
Yes. But in the case of South Carolina I don’t think it would have made much of a difference. 

Older black voters in the South still don’t seem to like Bernie Sanders. Younger ones do but they don’t vote. That was true in 2016 and it seems to be true today as well. 
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You're right Tim....probably nothing meaningfully different between a vote between two choices and one between 6-7.  I appreciate the days of the past, but the Dem electorate is changing and changing quickly.  Attempting to read the tea leaves and going all in on this being a huge deal because of a vacuum example isn't wise IMO, but do what works best for you Tim.

I get that this is the primary.  It probably matters a bit in this case.  Come the general, it's not going to matter at all.  SC isn't turning blue ever.  Neither are most of the southern states...it doesn't matter how black people vote or turn out.

 
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GQ reported on Feb. 23, 2020, that Sanders never explained his vote, but "fellow Dems suggest that it was because a free trade provision had been tucked into the legislative package."

 
Don't worry folks- Bernie fell for the TrumpRussia scam hard.  There is little reason to worry that he wouldn't be sufficiently uncritical toward whatever garbage the intel spooks are spewing.  

I like to think he voted against the Magnitsky Act because Bill Browder is a liar and a fraud.  But as this writeup asserts, it was probably a combination of normalized trade relations with Russia, and perhaps that he supported a comprehensive sanctions bill that applied internationally rather than just targeting Russia.  

 
BigSteelThrill said:
GQ reported on Feb. 23, 2020, that Sanders never explained his vote, but "fellow Dems suggest that it was because a free trade provision had been tucked into the legislative package."
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If you’d asked me to name the worst reason I could think of that was realistic, I don’t think I could have thought of one that bad.

 
BigSteelThrill said:
That a person doesn't like the "add-ons" that dont need to be part of a bill/law is always a rather standardly acceptable position.
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I think maurile was criticizing him for disliking that add on. 

In other words..."i didnt vote for that bill against some naughty russia dudes because the bill has a free trade provision in it" doesnt sound any better than the other speculation. 

Thats how i took it at least. 

 
mcintyre1 said:
Bernie leads off his speech in St. Paul with positive acknowledgements of Klobuchar (hard worker and a friend) and Buttigieg (ground breaking campaign), says to their supporters that he knows there may be political differences, but "the door's open, come on in!" 
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And then CNN cuts away...

 
I just posted about this in the Biden thread, but I supposed it is more appropriate here:  I finally read a little more about Bernie's student loan forgiveness plan.  It's a stupid plan that made me mad just reading about it.  It's so stupid it dropped him to dead last out of all the Dem contenders (for me, at least).  How could anyone support this?  Good god. 

 
Sweet J said:
I just posted about this in the Biden thread, but I supposed it is more appropriate here:  I finally read a little more about Bernie's student loan forgiveness plan.  It's a stupid plan that made me mad just reading about it.  It's so stupid it dropped him to dead last out of all the Dem contenders (for me, at least).  How could anyone support this?  Good god. 
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You made some interesting points there

 
Sweet J said:
I just posted about this in the Biden thread, but I supposed it is more appropriate here:  I finally read a little more about Bernie's student loan forgiveness plan.  It's a stupid plan that made me mad just reading about it.  It's so stupid it dropped him to dead last out of all the Dem contenders (for me, at least).  How could anyone support this?  Good god. 
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I'm not sure I support it entirely, but I'm generally in favor of the government taking more money from wealthy people and giving it to less wealthy people.  Seems like this plan among others would be a move in that direction.  I recognize it's not perfect but few policies are.  

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
I'm not sure I support it entirely, but I'm generally in favor of the government taking more money from wealthy people and giving it to less wealthy people.  Seems like this plan among others would be a move in that direction.  I recognize it's not perfect but few policies are.  
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It's not means-tested.  Just automatically wipes out ALL debt.  There are a lot of people that come from families who have money who have big student loans. 

A family who makes $100k a year could send their kid to state school and incur minimal debt, or encourage their kid to go to the "best" school and get saddled with $200k a year.  I don't envision people making $100k a year as "less wealthy people." 

I wouldn't mind spending this money on families who are so downtrodden they don't even make it to college.  Or what about dirt poor families who scrimp to send kids to community college who are so beaten down it doesn't even occur to them to take out debt. 

Edit:  I could get behind some sort of plan for addressing student loan debt.  I don't mean to be a huge naysayer. 

 
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Sweet J said:
It's not means-tested.  Just automatically wipes out ALL debt.  There are a lot of people that come from families who have money who have big student loans. 

A family who makes $100k a year could send their kid to state school and incur minimal debt, or encourage their kid to go to the "best" school and get saddled with $200k a year.  I don't envision people making $100k a year as "less wealthy people." 

I wouldn't mind spending this money on families who are so downtrodden they don't even make it to college.  Or what about dirt poor families who scrimp to send kids to community college who are so beaten down it doesn't even occur to them to take out debt. 
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Everything doesn't have to be means tested on both ends.  If we would start taxing at real progressive rates, then most of the money the government used for these new programs would be coming from the top 1%.  If those same 1% get to send their kid to college for free or gets single-payer health care, that's fine.  The money came from them anyway.  It's a lot more administratively simple to NOT means test everything. 

 
The amount of student debt is too large. They’re  getting good jobs but they’re not able to buy homes at the rate their parents and grandparents did because they just can’t afford it. Home purchases are the foundation of a stable society, IMO, so we should look at student loan forgiveness as a sort of new GI bill.   

 
A gradual forgiveness of student debt over a decade or so plus a gradual transition to M4A would greatly increase the living standards of the majority of Americans. We just gotta have the want-to.

 
Sweet J said:
I just posted about this in the Biden thread, but I supposed it is more appropriate here:  I finally read a little more about Bernie's student loan forgiveness plan.  It's a stupid plan that made me mad just reading about it.  It's so stupid it dropped him to dead last out of all the Dem contenders (for me, at least).  How could anyone support this?  Good god. 
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Does it do anything to fix how we got there in the first place? 

 
timschochet said:
The amount of student debt is too large. They’re  getting good jobs but they’re not able to buy homes at the rate their parents and grandparents did because they just can’t afford it. Home purchases are the foundation of a stable society, IMO, so we should look at student loan forgiveness as a sort of new GI bill.   
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Maybe the concepts of ownership are shifting in the country.   I've seen a lot of advanced theory that we will simply not own cars within 30 years, everything will be an uber system.  I don't know if thats true but there's a lot of logic to it if we are going driverless.

I can't fathom forgiving the principle on these debts.  You want to waive the interest I can listen but I'd sooner see everyone in america given 50 grand and if you were blue collar or you saved money, well here's 50 grand and if you have student debt, put it towards that.

 
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